Good Ol' Boy Letter to the Editor re: Politicians/Confederate Flag

For a taste of the South, this appeared in my local paper today. Read on. (Disclaimer. I assure you this is not the predominate view in NC, but it's not a rarity either.)
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Confederates fought to defend homeland

How dare self-serving Democratic politicians defame the memory and honor of the 1 million men and boys who defended the South against 3.5 million Northern invaders.

I had two great-grandfathers and two great-great-grandfathers who served under the Confederate flag during the Civil War. One of them was wounded and lost three sons in the war; another one was wounded three times and captured; his brother died in the war; another one was wounded and captured; and the fourth one was captured and paroled. Later, while at the head of his command, he was killed the first day of battle at Gettysburg. None of them owned slaves, they all hated the war, but they all loved their homeland.

Only God knows the exact number of patriots who served and died to defend the South from Northern aggression. They all fought for a noble cause -- to defend their homeland, their independence and their liberty.

The Confederate flag is a symbol of Southern heritage, honor and courage and that is all it stands for. Only those who are possessed with hatred and/or ignorance distort the meaning of the flag and dishonor our dead patriots.

Today our enduring honor for the Confederate flag and our ancestors is much stronger than the hatred of those who oppose the glorious flag. I have no respect for those who attack my Southern heritage and dishonor my ancestors. I will display the Confederate flag even more in the future so politicians will know where I stand.

James R. Hardy

Browns Summit

http://www.news-record.com/news/opinions/letters/tues_letters_111803.htm

the Confederacy doesn't exist. Perhaps they should all secede again.

Other than the Dean flag flap, the CF has not been a big source of state controversy. :shrug:

It was the recent flag flap. Here's another letter that appeared two days ago:
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Good-old-boy voters

The recent flap concerning Howard Dean and his comment about the good old boys from the South flying the great Confederate flag on their pickups was very interesting. Dean has finally realized that without our vote, he and a lot of other politicians cannot win. Just remember there are more of us than there are of you.

Richard H. Vanderford

Siler City
http://www.news-record.com/news/opinions/letters/sun_letters_111603.htm

Driving through Asheville on a Sunday morning not long ago (returnign froma family trip) we passed a man on a pedestrian overpass waving a HUGE stars n bars over the highway on a long flagpole. A little bizzare.

As for the letter writer, someone needs to quote the csa's 'vice president' to him..

From the “Cornerstone Speech” delivered by CSA Vice President Alexander H. Stephens, March 21, 1861.

http://members.aol.com/jfepperson/corner.html
But not to be tedious in enumerating the numerous changes for the better, allow me to allude to one other -- though last, not least. The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution -- African slavery as it exists amongst us -- the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution.{emphasis added} Jefferson in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which the old Union would split." He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old constitution, were that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally, and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with, but the general opinion of the men of that day was that, somehow or other in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away. This idea, though not incorporated in the constitution, was the prevailing idea at that time. The constitution, it is true, secured every essential guarantee to the institution while it should last, and hence no argument can be justly urged against the constitutional guarantees thus secured, because of the common sentiment of the day. Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the government built upon it fell when the "storm came and the wind blew."

You and I agree, of course. But this argument gets no traction with the guys who write these kinds of letters. Who knows how accurately they portray the motives of their great-great-long-since-dead relatives, but if one considers that not all soldiers fight because of the political policies of their commanders (witness present-day Iraq), their argument that their ancestors did not fight for slavery cannot be dismissed on its face.

A far better argument, one that does seem to get through, as acknowledged in the first letter above, is that the CF has been and is used as a symbol of intimidation. It's easier to create a chink in the armor when discussing this to focus on what the CF means to most people TODAY!

sons and daughters of those who fought and died in the war for the Confederacy. Who knows which ones were honorable and which ones were hateful racists who had slaves or wanted them?

You cannot dismiss this as a lot of DUers want to. I even had a DUer tell me that I should tell any of my relatives in NC to put up a Magnolia flag instead of the CF. :crazy:

Just because the flag is used by some current day assholes to represent nothing but racism doesn't mean we should attack all people who consider the flag a symbol of their ancestors fight for their land. That would be like me dismissing everything about Christianity because the present-day Fundies have so perversely distorted what Christianity means (war is good, death penalty is good, sex is bad, etc.).

There seems to be a limit on this board as to what we can have open-minds about.

p.s. I don't mean you personally HFishbine.

Let's see, the Confederacy fired first(on Ft. Sumpter), they offered no repartions to the US gov't for the land they wished to take out of US control(we were still paying off Spanish and French for land acquisition), they paid no compensation for the land, buildings and equipment the Confederacy took over from the US gov't and US corporations. This is marked down as treason by any sane person. Trying to ennoble it by stirring up sentiments of glorious patriotism, or romantisizing with visions of the grand, glorious Old South is simply a propganda trick you are buying into. And to try and pretend that the Civil War wasn't fought about slavery is the height of ignorance at best, and deliberate misrepresentation at the worst, since in the preamble of each and every Confederate state it is written down that slavery is what they are fighting for. Yes, there were other causes, but slavery was the one uniting them.

And using the Confederate flag today is nothing but an attempt to intimidate and spread fear. To believe otherwise is ignoring historical realities. The "Stars and Bars" weren't brought back into common usage in the South until the late '50s and early '60s, as direct result of the Civil Rights movement going on. Before that time it was considered shameful and disrespectful to fly the Confederate flag(even the Klan, during it's reemergence in the early twentieth century displayed the Stars and Stripes, disdaining the Confederate flag) It was added to state flags and flown conspicously in effort to harrass and intimidate African Americans in their struggle for equality. This is also born out by documentation at the time the laws and flags were changed.

And this fine tradition is continued today. People with the intelligence to obfuscate the matter like to claim that the flag is flown only to honor their ancestors. Well, if I had an ancestor who betrayed his country like the Confederacy betrayed the US, I would be ashamed to fly a flag of treason(wait, I do have such an ancestor, guess that's why I don't fly the Confederate flag). And to ignore the recent uses the flag has been put to, to fly the flag claiming that you wish only to "honor your ancestors" is deliberately insulting every African American in this country. It is like flying the swastika in Israel and saying you are doing such to honor you German ancestors. The insensitivity goes beyond honest mistake, or simple ignorance. We all know what the "Stars and Bars" stands for, both historically and modern day. And there is nothing honorable or patriotic about it. It is simply racism and treason dressed in new clothes.

But I can't tell you how they think and feel and believe without it "insulting every African American in this country."

You really don't understand tolerance at all do you?

I never said I supported racist behavior and those, as I think I called them "assholes" who use the flag for that purpose. But if you had even a clue about the south, I'd talk to you. Clearly you don't.

I am not bringing up the glorious "old south." My relatives were poor. But we do honor our soldiers killed in a war. I guess that's just too much for some of you to handle. You obviously want me to spit on the graves of my forefathers. And honey, there are lots of those graves and lots of those ancestors and you just spit in their faces.

Thanks for all of the insults and good luck with your life in a world where you hate millions of people whom you don't even know, but stereotype.

For that is all that those fought for the Confederacy were, traitors trying to preserve a racist and bigotted social order. Or did you not read all of those Confederate preambles? I have my own Confederate ancestors, and while I don't spit on their graves, I do recognize the error of their ways, and am ashamed for what they did. Your ancestors may not have owned slaves, my ancestors didn't own slaves, but even so, they benefitted from the two tier social order that slavery brought about(or have you forgotten the common practice of "having a slave out behind the woodshed", amongst other benefits).

As for those who fly the Confederate flag today, claiming to be honoring their heritage, either they are suffering from a profound historical ignorance, or are willfully blind in the pursuit of some romantic vision of the Old South. Why should I tolerate a symbol that is so loaded with bigotry and racism? It not only insults me, it insults my great, great, great grandmother, who was African American(and suffered at the hand of a Southerner who owned no slaves). Should I be expected to tolerate that? Should African Americans to be expected to tolerate the Confederate flag, and all of the bagage that comes with it. Tolerate the flag of their ancestoral and modern oppressor(for remember, the opressors and opressees from the Civil Rights movement are still alive). Did Rosa Parks, MLK, and countless others fight so hard and shed blood sweat and tears to make such progress under the shadow of that flag(which was raised deliberately over their heads as a symbol of oppression and intimidation) sit by and watch as that flag is raised again under the guise of honoring white "heritage"?

I understand you wishing to honor you Confederate ancestors. But do it with your eyes wide open. Your ancestors fought and died to preserve a way of life based on the oppression of the majority within the Confederacy. They fought and died in a treasonous war to seperate themselves from the US. They did it under a flag that has been used as a modern day symbol of oppression. And if we are truly to be considered a tolerant society, we need to get rid of all such symbols of oppression. Just as Germany shed the swastika after Hitler's demise, so we need to shed the Stars and Bars. It is one more step towards MLK's dream. Let us take it and thus be a better society.

You may consider your relatives all those things, but you don't know mine buddy. My eyes are wide open. I am not ignorant.

Do you really consider every single person who fought on the South side to be a racist? Do some homework. No, actually you should walk around Selma or Montgomery, AL and ask yourself why none of the African Americans living here today lead the charge for banning the CF. Why do they ignore the store in the mall that sells nothing but CF memorabilia? My town is half black. Why aren't they screaming in the streets? Or just calmly writing up legislation to get rid of it? They are on the city council and the state legislature.

The CF is not the Swastika. If it were, where is the outrage? Maybe you are just exaggerating a bit the situation today. We live in a free country and when blacks themselves are not demanding the banning of a symbol, why are you? It is a big difference between not displaying it over the state capitol and asking people to remove it from their flag pole on their own property.

By that logic, I shoud remove my peace symbol from my car because it offends Republicans?

Now if you wish to be lumped in with that group, that is your own business. But nowhere have I written down anything about you personally? Perhaps my points are hitting a little too close to home for you eh?

And yes, every single person who fought for the South WAS a racist, insomuch as they were fighting for, benefitting from, and upholding the racist, biggoted, two tier social system that was the Old South. And that system of apartheid continued until the 1960s and the Civil Rights movement.

And I've been to Selma, I've had relatives who lived in Selma. You know what, they moved. While Selma has discontinued the overt, violent racism, covert racism is alive and well there. Where do the vast majority of African Americans live in that town? How many racially mixed churches are there? Even after all these years, how racially integrated are the schools down there? And the list goes on and on. You are like many other white Southerners I've known. In and of yourself you are a fine upstanding person, we would probably have a good time over a beer. But because you don't wish to rock the boat, or endanger your standing in the community, you are willing to put up with and tolerate the evil and injustice that walks in your midst. You say you have a CF memorabilia store out at the mall. Have you ever thought of shutting it down yourself? You see the racial divide in your town, have you ever tried to bridge it? Or are you simply content to pat yourself on the back when you see headlines in the paper trumpeting that all is racially well in Selma, even when you know it isn't. The true measure of racial progress isn't when headlines are made on the occasion of a black politician obtains a modicum of power. It is when a black politician is elected, and the skin color isn't noted, but simply accepted as a matter of course.

Of course the CF isn't the swastika, it is our own home-grown symbol of racism and oppression. And it is flown side by side with the swastika by almost every hate group in our country, because those folks know what you apparently aren't willing to admit, that both symbols inspire fear and oppression based on race. Why did the CF all of the sudden start sprouting up when the Civil Rights movement started gaining ground? To inspire fear in the oppressed. The CF wasn't flown on state grounds, much less incorporated into state flags until the Civil Rights movement, then it started sprouting like weeds after a rainshower. State sponsored intimidation. And if don't think there is outrage against it's continued display on public grounds, then you haven't been listening. Haven't you heard the outrage called forth by the NAACP? Haven't you heard of the boycotts still in place against states who display the CF on public grounds? Haven't you been listening?

And trying to draw parellels between the CF and your peace symbol is a straw man. One is a symbol of peace and tolerance, the other is a symbol used for oppression and fear. Why should we contiue to let such a symbol to be displayed in our country, a country noted for it's freedom and tolerance for all when a majority of people in this country wish it were dead and gone. The CF stands opposed to everything we as a nation are supposed to stand for. It is time to toss it on the ashheap of history.

but you have to show the history of the flag, what it originally meat (slavery and racism) toi show why it's not unexpected that the KKK and the CCC still wave the stars and bars. I think you need both parts of the arguments.

The people who really truely believe that they are honoring their heritage don't like it that their symbol has been hijacked by hate groups.

It was adopted on the battlefield to prevent friendly fire because the flag they were using looked too much like the Union Flag and both sides were shooting their own. The people who fought for the Confederacy weren't slave owners. They were just a bunch of poor and proud Southerners who were defending their homes and families. Some moron politician decided to fly the thing during the Civil Rights fight. Even then the flag was a symbol for Southern defiance and rebellion from the North...hence the nickname "Rebel Flag". It's a symbol of rebellion, non-confromity and independence. It never should have been used to symbolize these things during the Civil Rights movement because hate groups hijacked it and got too many people to associate it with hatred of blacks and racism. Even during the Civil Rights Movement the flag didn't symbolize racism to most southerners. In my opinion, the ONLY way to resolve this issue is to educate everyone about the true meaning and symbolism of the flag and take the thing back from groups like the KKK and give it to the surviving relatives of those poor, proud men and boys who fought in self-defense because a few wealthy slave owners and wealthy politicians brought a war to them they never wanted or believed in. They fought it because they had to.

My great-great-great Grandfather and Uncle among them. See what the Southern states THEMSELVES said when they tried to leave the union. it was (pay close attention) to PROTECT THE SLAVE SYSTEM. Not every German that fought for Nazi Germany fought to murder Jews, but in the end they fought to preserve an evil system.


The following long section contains..

1. excerpts from various confederate state's declarations of independence explaining WHY they were leaving the Union..

2. a section of the confederate constitution protecting slavery.
and

3. a statement by the CSA Vice-President on how the war is over slavery.

appropriate links are provided as well.


Mississippi

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/csa/missec.htm
It has grown until it denies the right of property in slaves, and refuses protection to that right on the high seas, in the Territories, and wherever the government of the United States had jurisdiction.
It refuses the admission of new slave States into the Union, and seeks to extinguish it by confining it within its present limits, denying the power of expansion.
It tramples the original equality of the South under foot.
It has nullified the Fugitive Slave Law in almost every free State in the Union, and has utterly broken the compact which our fathers pledged their faith to maintain.
It advocates negro equality, socially and politically, and promotes insurrection and incendiarism in our midst.
It has enlisted its press, its pulpit and its schools against us, until the whole popular mind of the North is excited and inflamed with prejudice.
It has made combinations and formed associations to carry out its schemes of emancipation in the States and wherever else slavery exists.
It seeks not to elevate or to support the slave, but to destroy his present condition without providing a better.

South Carolina
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/csa/scarsec.htm
The General Government, as the common agent, passed laws to carry into effect these stipulations of the States. For many years these laws were executed. But an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery, has led to a disregard of their obligations, and the laws of the General Government have ceased to effect the objects of the Constitution. The States of Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New York, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Wisconsin and Iowa, have enacted laws which either nullify the Acts of Congress or render useless any attempt to execute them. In many of these States the fugitive is discharged from service or labor claimed, and in none of them has the State Government complied with the stipulation made in the Constitution. The State of New Jersey, at an early day, passed a law in conformity with her constitutional obligation; but the current of anti-slavery feeling has led her more recently to enact laws which render inoperative the remedies provided by her own law and by the laws of Congress. In the State of New York even the right of transit for a slave has been denied by her tribunals; and the States of Ohio and Iowa have refused to surrender to justice fugitives charged with murder, and with inciting servile insurrection in the State of Virginia. Thus the constituted compact has been deliberately broken and disregarded by the non-slaveholding States, and the consequence follows that South Carolina is released from her obligation.
These ends it endeavored to accomplish by a Federal Government, in which each State was recognized as an equal, and had separate control over its own institutions. The right of property in slaves was recognized by giving to free persons distinct political rights, by giving them the right to represent, and burthening them with direct taxes for three-fifths of their slaves; by authorizing the importation of slaves for twenty years; and by stipulating for the rendition of fugitives from labor.
We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have been defeated, and the Government itself has been made destructive of them by the action of the non-slaveholding States. Those States have assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection.

Georgia
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/csa/geosec.htm
Northern anti-slavery men of all parties asserted the right to exclude slavery from the territory by Congressional legislation and demanded the prompt and efficient exercise of this power to that end. This insulting and unconstitutional demand was met with great moderation and firmness by the South. We had shed our blood and paid our money for its acquisition; we demanded a division of it on the line of the Missouri restriction or an equal participation in the whole of it. These propositions were refused, the agitation became general, and the public danger was great. The case of the South was impregnable.

The Presidential election of 1852 resulted in the total overthrow of the advocates of restriction and their party friends. Immediately after this result the anti-slavery portion of the defeated party resolved to unite all the elements in the North opposed to slavery an to stake their future political fortunes upon their hostility to slavery everywhere. This is the party two whom the people of the North have committed the Government. They raised their standard in 1856 and were barely defeated. They entered the Presidential contest again in 1860 and succeeded.
The prohibition of slavery in the Territories, hostility to it everywhere, the equality of the black and white races, disregard of all constitutional guarantees it its favor, were boldly proclaimed by its leaders and applauded by its followers.
With these principles on their banners and these utterances on their lips the majority of the people of the North demand that we shall receive them as our rulers.
The prohibition of slavery in the Territories is the cardinal principle of this organization.

Texas
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/csa/texsec.htm
Texas abandoned her separate national existence and consented to become one of the Confederated Union to promote her welfare, insure domestic tranquility and secure more substantially the blessings of peace and liberty to her people. She was received into the confederacy with her own constitution, under the guarantee of the federal constitution and the compact of annexation, that she should enjoy these blessings. She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery-- the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits-- a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. Her institutions and geographical position established the strongest ties between her and other slave-holding States of the confederacy. Those ties have been strengthened by association. But what has been the course of the government of the United States, and of the people and authorities of the non-slave-holding States, since our connection with them?
The States of Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massachusetts, New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Wisconsin, Michigan and Iowa, by solemn legislative enactments, have deliberately, directly or indirectly violated the 3rd clause of the 2nd section of the 4th article of the federal constitution, and laws passed in pursuance thereof; thereby annulling a material provision of the compact, designed by its framers to perpetuate the amity between the members of the confederacy and to secure the rights of the slave-holding States in their domestic institutions-- a provision founded in justice and wisdom, and without the enforcement of which the compact fails to accomplish the object of its creation. Some of those States have imposed high fines and degrading penalties upon any of their citizens or officers who may carry out in good faith that provision of the compact, or the federal laws enacted in accordance therewith.
In all the non-slave-holding States, in violation of that good faith and comity which should exist between entirely distinct nations, the people have formed themselves into a great sectional party, now strong enough in numbers to control the affairs of each of those States, based upon an unnatural feeling of hostility to these Southern States and their beneficent and patriarchal system of African slavery, proclaiming the debasing doctrine of equality of all men, irrespective of race or color-- a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of Divine Law. They demand the abolition of negro slavery throughout the confederacy, the recognition of political equality between the white and negro races, and avow their determination to press on their crusade against us, so long as a negro slave remains in these States.


the following are from.. http://www.americancivilwar.info/pages/ordinances_secession.asp


Alabama

Whereas, the election of Abraham Lincoln and Hannibal Hamlin to the offices of president and vice-president of the United States of America, by a sectional party, avowedly hostile to the domestic institutions and to the peace and security of the people of the State of Alabama, preceded by many and dangerous infractions of the constitution of the United States by many of the States and people of the Northern section, is a political wrong of so insulting and menacing a character as to justify the people of the State of Alabama in the adoption of prompt and decided measures for their future peace and security, therefore:

And as it is the desire and purpose of the people of Alabama to meet the slaveholding States of the South, who may approve such purpose, in order to frame a provisional as well as permanent Government upon the principles of the Constitution of the United States,


Virginia

The people of Virginia in their ratification of the Constitution of the United States of America, adopted by them in convention on the twenty-fifth day of June, in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty-eight, having declared that the powers granted under said Constitution were derived from the people of the United States and might be resumed whensoever the same should be perverted to their injury and oppression, and the Federal Government having perverted said powers not only to the injury of the people of Virginia, but to the oppression of the Southern slave-holding States:


The other Southern states, including Florida, North Carolina and Arkansas pretty much said “we’re outta here” and mentioned the election of Lincoln.


Section 9.4 of the CSA Constitution…

(4) No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed.

From the “Cornerstone Speech” delivered by CSA Vice President Alexander H. Stephens, March 21, 1861.

http://members.aol.com/jfepperson/corner.html
But not to be tedious in enumerating the numerous changes for the better, allow me to allude to one other -- though last, not least. The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution -- African slavery as it exists amongst us -- the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution.{emphasis added} Jefferson in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which the old Union would split." He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old constitution, were that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally, and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with, but the general opinion of the men of that day was that, somehow or other in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away. This idea, though not incorporated in the constitution, was the prevailing idea at that time. The constitution, it is true, secured every essential guarantee to the institution while it should last, and hence no argument can be justly urged against the constitutional guarantees thus secured, because of the common sentiment of the day. Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the government built upon it fell when the "storm came and the wind blew."


and last but not least, a good Civil War quiz… http://bellsouthpwp.net/m/e/mebuckner/civwarquiz.htm

These people were traitors to their country. They attacked soldiers of their country and declared war on their country. That is treason. The North didn't just invade them. The North was attacked and soldiers killed. It was rebellion and the North was putting it down. It wasn't an invading Army capturing land. It is an offensive flag to far more than just black folk.

southern land owners who wanted to take their slaves into the new territories. Yep... that's what his ancestors died for.

Nevermind that most white southerners at the time were not wealthy land owners living on a Tara like plantation.

The war was about the rights of the rich and powerful landowners and their state rights to take slavery wherever they chose.

And the South wasn't invaded until the South attacked Fort Sumter. Well guess what folks no matter how you try to spin it it still stands for the same thing, HATE! And no matter how Dean supporters try to spin it, it is Dean trying to bring these haters into to the party. Once again I will say it Dean screwed up bigtime!!!


on edit: and in case your wondering, I am a southern gentleman, who understands what the rebel flag stands for. This arguement here sounds like the same arguement of people who rally round the nazi flag it's tradition.

was a tragedy on uncommon proportions. The continued agrument over who was right only perpetuates it. Both sides suffered terribly and families on both sides lost members.

We should learn from it what we may. We should not continue it.

(Of course I speak as a fairly recent immigrant, 38 years ago)

many rural North Carolinians still buy into the southern heritage thing. One of my ancestors (who was a Whig) had the votes in the legislature against secession. Before the votes were cast, South Carolinians fired on Sumter and S.C. officially seceeded. When the votes came up, the vote had turned on these events. It was a fear vote (SC and Va. joined the confederacy). North Carolinians became fearful of a war brought to its land sandwiched between two confederate states. People today have no clue that "southern heritage" had little to do with how events transpired in N.C.. An article on these events were published in the North Carolina Historical Review. We kept it for obvious reasons (family member).

and so are the people who defend it.

treason is not honor. Ignorance of fact is no legitimate excuse.

I am not defending the confederate flag. I'm only hoping to offer some insight into the minds of those who do. One can dismiss supporters of the confederate flag en masse, or one can try to understand their thinking -- especially if one thinks they should be, for practical purposes, voting democratic.

don't care to understand. Its easier from people from both sides of the flag issue to not think. I say its time to treat the south like all parts of the country and try to get the message out. This is destined to become a sideshow missing out on what's wrong here in America in the 21st century.

I know a number of honorable, kind, non-racist people who defend the flag. Where do I lump them? In the disgrace category?

My great, great grandfather was an officer in the Confederate Army.

The story goes that he was spending time at home getting over a serious illness when Sherman marched through Georgia. As Sherman was burning down the houses around my ancestor's home, my great, great grandmother shoved my GGF into a trunk and sat on it. Sherman's men came into the house and began to ransack the place while my GGF was reclining on the trunk. She pleaded with the officers to leave her house intact because she was very, very ill and could not move. To his credit, Sherman (or one of his officers) obliged and left the house (with many of their possessions) without searching the trunk. My GGF was safe and my GGM was safe. Otherwise, I would not be writing this today.

The point is that those of us in the South each have our own family stories of the Civil War. We grew up with a deep understanding of the effects of that stupid war, but also with an understanding of what our ancestors thought they had to do. While many of us disagree with their actions, we can't fault them for doing what they felt was either right or honorable. As in Lee's case, he may not have agreed with the war, but he became a general for the Confederacy because he felt honor bound to defend the South. Stupid? Yes, but it was a very different time with different rules.

There are those who do think that the Confederate Flag is a symbol of their ancestry. They reject the hate that goes along with that symbol. Misguided? Probably, but they have this deep feeling nonetheless.

So...we in the Democratic Party have a few options. One - we can marginalize anyone who feels a connection to the Confederate Flag. We can toss them on the trash heap of history without a backward glance. Surely, they are never going to understand the pain and suffering that the flag represents. Two - we can dialog with those individuals. We can hear their stories. We can hear the stories of their ancestors to who they are so very attached. We can listen and then ask that they listen to the stories of the great-great grandchildren of slaves. They can hear the stories of pain and suffering that the flag represents. They can hear the stories of horror. Perhaps then, we can both come to a middle ground and grow together. Third - we can ignore the whole thing and use the flag as a political football when expedient.

I vote for number two.

good post.

. . special (hateful) interests - to take advantage of our freedoms -- in order to attack our freedoms.

We have free speech. But it is illegal to advocate the overthrow of our government. It's the paradox of democracy. In 1856 the CF was a symbol for those who would overthrow our government - because we would not allow them to spread slavery to the newly forming states out west.

Flying that flag, they eventually took up arms against our government - and were defeated at great cost of life on both sides. Some would say that happened because of our government's willingness to try to allow them as much freedom as possible, short of war - hoping that they would "get over it" and "move on".

Instead they created a sense of a separate union - of confederate states. The CF was the primary symbol of that confederation. Regardless of whatever "southern heritage" they claim the CF represents for them today - to me it represents slavery, oppression of blacks and a war that killed several of my relatives.

Many say we should have laws that criminalize desecration of the US flag. In otherwords, many believe that the symbolism of flags is an important part of freedom of expression and that desecrating the flag is symbolically calling for the overthrow of our government.

I'm not sure I believe that but I see their point. I do believe we have an obligation to criminalize the flying of flags that "the majority" believe oppose the principles that our nation is based upon. And we need to make no bones about it. This should be especially true of any flag that actually represented an unlawful seccession movement and was carried into war against our nation.

Assholes don't "get over" their hatred. To allow them to fly their "southern heritage" flag is bullshit. It is essentially inviting the next civil war. But outlawing that flag would require taking a stand on principle - and politicians are not known for that.

Unfortunately, we will do what we did before the last civil war - we'll pander to the bigots because the politicians need their votes. And for the same reason that disagreement eventually grew into a civil war - we may soon find ourselve's in the same place our great-great grandfathers did.

Unfortunately, this time things are little different. Imagine how the civil war would have ended if in 1856, instead of Abraham Lincoln in the whitehouse, our president was a dumbed-down southern bigot.

but it doesn't serve any wellmeaning purpose. You can ignore the fact that some people own a confederate flag that are not racist and call them a racist if you like, but it breeds of an arrogance that will insure the divisions and could make the dems a permanent minority party. I detest the flag , by the way. But I live here and I do know people who own a confederate flag that are not racist nor have a treasonous bone in their body.

. . in 1850 if you were alive then and living where you do.

led the attempt in the legislature to stay with the union and had the votes until Ft. Sumter. The confederate battle flag was not yet created in 1850.

I'm sure you are right.

But my point is that the CF is being used to divide us (Americans) ideologically and ensure a repuke lock on our government. You support the nostalgia value of the CF and "southern heritage". You don't see that is actually supporting the repuke lock on the south.

When a group of anti-racist southerns take that flag and wave it in the air - and say "Along with southern heritage and the good southern traditions, this flag represents equality for all and freedom from oppression for all minorities." then I'll not only agree with you, I'll join that organization and take up that flag myself.

BTW I don't live there now but I did grow up in the south (in the fifties) and lived there until I was 15. It was very racist then. On my trips back occasionally I have found the racism to be more politically correct today - but still widespread.

attempt to overthrow the US government. They attempted to seperate from it and form their own country. While this distinction is often forgotten or ignored, it is reality, and an important reality.

. . do you think they would have left the north alone to go their own way? Of course not. They would have become "our" government - to assure that the north would never attempt to take back the south in another war.

It was not the Confederacy's aim to take over the country. The individual states that made up the Confederacy wanted to leave the union. They were fighting for that right, not the right to take over the country.

But winners in war seldom give back what they won - especially of it decreases their security from attack by "sore losers". I assure you that had the south won - such noble sentiments would have been forgotten in a New York minute.

The Confederacy was defending its borders. A win in this instance would have resulted in the Union retreating back into Northern territory and calling the war off. The South didn't have the manpower nor the supplies to take on an occupation, and the North knew that.

Keep in mind that the Confederacy saw the Union as occupiers. They wanted to get them out of the South, establish their borders, and start a new country. They did not want to incorporate the North into this country because the entire reason for war was that the North didn't understand the needs or desires of the South at that time.

Remember, Ft. Sumpter was in South Carolina. The Confederacy saw that as a Union stronghold that ensured occupation of the area. So, the Confederacy fired on the Fort (foolishly starting the war).

The South never gained an inch of Northern territory. Even if Lee had won Gettysburg, he could have never stayed in Pennslyvania because he could have never maintained his supply lines.

I am not a Confederate flag supporter by any chance, but your history is shockingly wrong here. The Confederates were ideological to a fault. They believed they were fighting from independence from the federal government. They had neither the inclination nor the ability to take over the "North" as you seem to believe.

In fact, Lee had a number of desertions during his Gettysburg campaign, because a lot of his soldiers had joined to defend the South not invade the North.

The South could never compete long-term with the North militarily. Lee's strategy was always inflict casualties and extend the war until the North finally agreed to let the Confederacy go.

I first saw this at DU, and forgive me, but I don't recall who first wrote it:

On one side, we have a family whose "heritage, honor and courage" are wrapped up neatly in a symbol of hatred and oppression. Well, the DUer said that his great-great-grandpappy had been in the 34th Indiana Irregulars (or whatever it was), and it was his family's heritage, not to mention a symbol of its honor and courage, to shoot any traitorous Southern sumbitch flying that flag.

So, as long as we're supposed to acknowledge and honor all this heritage and courage, let's make real sure we get all of it in there, okay?

. . who see no harm in celebrating southern heritage with the CF - who are not racists and bigots - unfortunately, those southerners who are racists and bigots are using your innocent nostalgia to create division and further their own racist agenda.

The problem is not northerners who are trying to stifle your freedom of expression - it is the racists and bigots who are using you to further their own political and ideological ends (Nixon's southern strategy in full bloom) - who are hiding behind your (innocent?) nostalgia. That's who you should be fighting.

On memorial day, do folks put out the CF or the American one? Or is there a special confederate memorial day?

But mostly, no. On memorial day, Americans in the South remember our American heros - our fathers and grandfathers who fought in WWI and WWII, not to mention Korea and Vietnam.

Many southern states do have a "Confederate Flag Day".

On edit: Confederate flag day in Arkansas was signed into law by Clinton. He also made Robert E Lee's birthday a state holiday.

No as the original poster put forth this view is not a rarity.

However, also as the poster pointed out, this is usually not the majority view in many states.

The problem is that politics are still revolve around race in the South. After Reconstruction Southern Dems no less used the race card to pit poor whites against poor blacks on a consistent basis. With the turn of the party away from such nonsense, the Republicans have gladly filled the gap with shrouded racist language.

The sad part is with most of the South-bashing threads is the fact that Dems lose on a much smaller margin in the South than in many other parts of Republican controlled states. A coalition of ex-pat Northerners, blacks, women, teachers, and that small group of forward thinking white men could easily tip the balance of power.

The issue with this is how to capture more attention in the South without comprimising the core principles of progressive politics and how to frame that message in a populist way to capture the hearts and minds of people from all over the South.

Mike Warner may be the example for this in the way he framed his campaign for the local audiences.

And a double amen from me.

In many Southern state, those margins are small.

them that if they honor their relatives (such as mine) who died in that hideous war with the flags (there were many different CF's) of that war, they are racist, treasonous poisonous people who must disown everything that has ever been passed down to them about the war.

Dialog is necessary.

Many seem to want to turn this into a black and white issue. You can't. They see the CF wavers as ignorant red-necks in pick-up trucks that shoot opossums for fun. While there are a number of people who fit that description, most CF defenders are older Southerners who have a very, very strong sense of heritage. Family is big down here. Who your "people" are is very important.

A strong memory from my childhood was my mother telling me to "remember who you are!" whenever I would leave for a trip or go to someone's house. This was to constantly connect me to my ancestors and ensure that I upheld the family name honorably.

It is about heritage for a few that do not use the symbol as part of their excuses in their own minds for their racism.

However, it is the symbol of a country (however short-lived) founded around the idea of preserving a way of life that put slavery at its core.

This is the reason the symbol has been taken by so many racists and we cannot forget that.

You get an odd slant on history from growing up in the deep south especially in a place ravaged by Sherman's march. Sherman was Satan incarnate. Grant was a butcher. It was not the Civil War but the War Between the States or as my high school history teacher liked to say the "War of Northern Agression"

My grandmother told me tales that her grandmother told her about the barn burnings and the rapes and the women hiding and how the yankees took all the food except for the grits and the hominy. In a country with such a short history as ours, it is hard for some to realize those wounds do not heal in the matter of just a few generations.

By the same token, that does not excuse the racism that has been wrapped around the CF under the guise of heritage either.

I understand your point but it is hard to reform that image of the battle flag. The strongest argument was it was a battle flag and flying it gives homage to the soldiers that died not the institution of the confederacy itself. However, that is not the real history of the image's use after the war itself.

Finally, I assert that much of the South-bashing going on here is just redneck hate.

Well, folks I have met hard core racists rednecks from backwoods PA and Iowa and many other places so it is time to stop being smug and get down to the business of fighting the real problem of hate as an institution in America.

You say "They see the CF wavers as ignorant red-necks in pick-up trucks that shoot opossums for fun."

I don't see all CF flag wavers in that light. What I'm saying is those racists who do wave that flag (like Jesse helms, Trent Lott, Tom Delay, etc.) have established a defacto symbolism for that flag.

From your point of view your symbolism is different from theirs - but the majority of Americans, especially non-southerners, are only aware of those other guys - and the other major bigots like KKK, white supremacy and southern heritage organizations that are outright (not PC) racists. I know it's not your fault - but it is the reality.

And they are using your good intentions as cover for their bad intentions. I know it seems unfair - and it seems that I am assailing your heritage.

That's what they want you to think. But I am not. I am trying to show you how they have used your good intentions to maintain their repuke control of the southern states.

Now, you can continue to point out how unfair I am being - or, if you really want to maintain your attachments to (good) southern heritage as you say - you can get mad at the assholes who are using you and take that flag and turn it into a symbol for equality - for the better south that is actually not racist.

Why not start a southern "equality" party - and use that flag as the symbol for that party and have black leaders and rich and poor whites be a part of that party with you.

You don't have to do that - but if you don't you are like the Christians here who get so incensed about us dems who think separation of church and state is important. And who accuse us of bashing Christians - when there is a huge vocal group of bigots (mostly southern BTW) who control our government now and want to insert God into government every chance they get.

i.e. the pukes are using you just like they are using good Christians - wake up! Instead of being so sensitive about southern heritage, turn your anger against those who are using your love of southern heritage for their own purposes. Take your flag back and use it against them. Or let them have it - that's your choice.

But don't expect me to be quiet about the CF when there are thousand of bigots using that flag to turn Americans against each other and maintain their control of our government through their brilliant and devisive "southern strategy".

But, what I'm saying is that if the Democrats want to regain a foothold in the South, they need to understand the heritage/hate issue a little better. Yes there are those that use the symbol as one of hate and racism, but there are many who quite honestly understand both sides of the CF symbol.

You say to take the flag back, well, that's what I am proposing here. How about all of us taking the thing back, allowing the good intentioned Southerners to discuss their heritage, disavow the hate, acknowledge the evils surrounding the confederacy, and being to grow.

The Dems can never gain a foothold down here as long as we seem to lump the ignorant flag wavers with the heritage flag wavers.

Neo-nazi and hate groups are not going to stop using it as a symbol of hate and the subjucation of black people.

As long as that is out there then the flag issue is not going to be reframed in any serious way.

such as the KKK use the US flag and the Christian cross as well. However, not everybody that flies these flags represent KKK thinking nor vice versa. The difficulty with the flag issue is plain and simple-historical perspective. For some, the hollowed out buildings and rubble of Charleston, Richmond, Atlanta, leave an indelible mark. If you've seen photos of these cities from right after the devastation, you know "shock and awe" has nothing on the devastation. There are no presidential wreaths laid out for the defenders of those cities. So therefore, all who may own a confederate flag aren't defacto racists.

I lived in an area of GA that was on Sherman's marching path to the sea.

It was an area that went through the looting, burnings, raping and pillaging that was part of Sherman's campaign.

I am not even saying that all of those who may own a CF are racists.

Not only that but it would be great if the real heritage people could take the battle flag and use at as a symbol for remembering their loss.

I was merely saying that it may be quite impossible to divorce the symbol from the hate not only because it is used by hate groups but because it was a symbol (albeit a battle symbol) for a nation built on saving its way of life on the backs of people who were slaves.

. . did not deserve it. Just as the Iraqi civilians who are dieing today do not deserve it. They never do.

Politicians start wars. Poor people die in them. Civilians do the most suffering. That was true in 1856 - just is it is today.

The same kind of politicans whose egos and political aspirations and economic greed led to the civil war are now in control of our government - and are leading us into war today for the exact same reasons.

But I would say that the Dems can never gain a foothold down south as long as repukes continue to use the successful political tactic of doing what you say - lumping the ignorant flag wavers with the heritage flag wavers - and saying that liberals are the enemy of both.

They do this in many ways - but writing letters like the one at the start of this thread is a good example.

The truth is it is always easier to appeal to humans' darker passions - than try to find common ground. All the good intentions in the world - like those you exhibit - are but a speck in the wind compared to the divisiveness and hatred being spewed daily by the VRWC.

Like ACK says, it may be too late, but if you cherish that flag for historical reasons then I think you (southerners) need to take it back and make it stand for those good things. Repudiate those who are using it for politcal control. I am not against southerners, Christians or any particular group of Americans.

But I must defend my values from those who have been convinced by the repukes that I am their enemy because I believe in equality for all, an independent, fair judiciary and the separation of church and state.

After reading my last post (#48)- it is so apparent how they do this.

The judgeship battle in the senate is a perfect example. They nominate an extreme RW ideologue to the bench - who just happens to be black or female or Catholic.

And when the dem senators claim they don't want ideologues appointed to lifetime judgeships - Orrin Hatch immediately screams that dems hate blacks, women and Catholics.

They belong to and support organizations that want to insert Christian theology into our educational system and all levels of our government - and then they scream that we hate God and all Christians when we point out that democratic government works better when church and state are separate.

They belong to and support organizations that attach the southern flag to racism and racial codewords - and then scream that we liberals hate all southerners when we object to that (defacto racist) flag flying over government statehouses.

They know how to use peoples' good intentions for their own bad intentions - and they use that tactic relentlessly in their pursuit of power. Please don't help them.

Added on edit: You have to wonder who these people are to have come up with such a cynical, undemocratic way to pursue their political ends. What do they tell themselves in their strategy meetings - to justify this obscene destruction of most Americans' natural good will for others.