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realFedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-03 06:30 PM
Original message
The differences in a marriage license and a civil union bill
Could someone tell me the exact differences in
the rights a marriage license gives to a couple
and a civil union bill guarantees a couple?

I think this is where facts will overcome rhetoric
if people understood that "married" couples get
more rights from the Feds than a couple receiving
benefits under civil union protection.

Thank in advance for any info.
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Noordam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-03 06:37 PM
Response to Original message
1. the word MARRIAGE plays right into the Repugs hands
where Civil Unions does not.

IMHO the gays should be pushing for "civil unions" THEY will win on that but not the Marriage thing......
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realFedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-03 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. yes but...
I'm looking for the exact rights that a couple
gets now for just getting a marriage license...
any info?
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-03 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. And this is how they'll win: by getting opposite couples to register CUs
rather than get married.

It will turn marriage into something you do if you're religious, and it will turn CUs into the thing you do to establish your legal rights. Render onto Ceasar the CU, and onto God the marriage, and everything will be cool for cats.
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realFedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-03 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
4. Marriage laws and rights here
Legal rights and benefits entitled by marriage:

File joint income tax returns with the IRS and state taxing authorities

Create a "family partnership" under federal tax laws, which allows you to divide business income among family members (this will often lower the total tax on the income)

Create a marital life estate trust

Receive spouses and dependents Social Security, disability, unemployment, veterans', pension and public assistance benefits

Receive a share of your deceased spouse's estate under intestate succession laws

Claim an estate tax marital deduction

Sue a third person for wrongful death and loss of consortium

Sue a third person for offenses that interfere with the success of your marriage, such as alienation of affection and criminal conversation (these lawsuits are available in only a few states)

Receive family rates for insurance

Avoid the deportation of a non-citizen spouse

Enter hospital intensive care units, jails and other places where visitors are restricted to immediate family

Live in neighborhoods zoned for "families only"

Make medical decisions about your spouse in the event of disability, and;

Claim the marital communications privilege, which means a court can't force you to disclose the contents of confidential communications between you and your spouse during your marriage.
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realFedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-03 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Clearly, more rights bestowed with a marriage license
The differences also include being "married" or blessed
in a religious ceremony, which actually isn't that old
a tradition, and in a civil ceremony with a judge or
someone with the powers from the Feds to officiate.

Many hetero couples aren't married in a religious
ceremony and still are regarded as "married" in the
eyes of the government.

Religion and government have to separate here...
same sex couples aren't receiving the same rights
as hetero couples are and that is not condoned
by the Constitution.

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realFedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-03 06:51 PM
Response to Original message
5. Civil union rights in Vermont here:
Gay and lesbian couples in Vermont can now to enter into "civil union" -- a kind of almost-but-not-quite marriage, at least in terms of its legal effects. With this landmark legislation, which took effect July 1, 2000, gay and lesbian couples can now enjoy many of the rights and benefits of married couples. Vermont is the only state to allow same-sex couples a status so close to that of married couples.

Couples who go through a civil union ceremony will:

automatically inherit property if one partner dies without a will
receive preference for becoming the partner's guardian if he or she becomes incapacitated and a court must appoint someone to make decisions on his or her behalf

have rights previously extended to spouses in the area of medical decision making, hospital visitation and notification, terminal care documents and durable powers of attorney

be able to own property in tenancy by the entirety (a joint-tenancy-like form of property ownership formerly restricted to married couples only)

transfer property between partners without paying transfer taxes
be able to apply the state's laws of domestic relations to the relationship, including the procedures related to seeking child custody and support as well as alimony

be able to sue for wrongful death, emotional distress and other kinds of injury cases if one partner is injured or killed.

These rights apply only to couples residing in Vermont. Even for Vermont residents, this new civil union statute does not affect rights and benefits extended to married couples under federal law; for example, Social Security benefits, immigration privileges and the marriage exemption to federal estate tax

Couples from outside Vermont can come to Vermont and be joined in civil union, but it appears unlikely that any other state will recognize the union.

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jamesinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-03 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
6. Dean has said the differance in his mind is this
Marraige is for the church, CU are not. Plain and simple. He has said that just because they are same gender does not mean they do not love each other. What it allows is for people to share things like health benifits from work. Why does he believe this because he believes in promoting the general welfare and insuring the blessing of liberty. The general welfare, not a select group of people that the government deems worthy, like the situation was in Iraq a few months ago. I guess we took that away from Iraq so we could have it, along with their oil.
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realFedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-03 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. and yet, religious gays and lesbians
do want a religious ceremony as does
any couple who believes in God and belongs
to a church.

I belong to a church that blesses same sex
couples and as someone who has helped with
them, can say they are very moving spiritually.
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adamblast Donating Member (219 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-03 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Civil marriage is a recognized entity. Civil unions can mean whatever...
...this week's politicians decide they mean.

There are 1049 Federal rights and responsibilities associated with marriage... There's no way of knowing how many state laws come into play.

Sure, Civil Unions are better than nothing.

Sure, getting our equal relationship rights peicemeal--one-at-a-time at the majority's whim--is better than nothing at all.

But don't you *dare* tell gays they should be happy with some new almost-but-not-quite marriage system.

Seperate-but-not-equal IS NOT EQUAL. Equal "in everything but name" IS NOT EQUAL.

You are asking gays to be happy with permanent 2nd class status, and you are wrong.

Full gay marriage is the only option that guarantees equal rights.
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realFedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-03 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I agree with you
adamblast.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-03 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. and aren't civil unions recognized unevenly by various states?
If a couple gets a CU in one state, it is not recognized in all states is it? I see that as a big discrimination.

Also, should a loved one be injured or taken seriously ill, I dread the fact that in many cases, a life partner can be kept from hospital room visits which could be very comforting because of some knee jerk reaction of staff or other family member objecting that some one is not really a spouse. It is inhumane in the extreme that this can happen.

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realFedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-21-03 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. This should be decided nationally
It would be like having one state not recognize another
state's married couple's rights
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tritsofme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-22-03 02:40 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. I think that was the "point" of DOMA.
States dont have to recognize gay marriages or civil unions in other states.
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ErasureAcer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-22-03 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. where did you get the 1049 rights? I'm writing a paper on this subject...
a source would help add to its credibility.
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foreigncorrespondent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-22-03 01:30 AM
Response to Original message
14. I can name one.
Edited on Sat Nov-22-03 01:31 AM by foreigncorrespondent
Immigration rights.

On edit: I could probably come up with more like federal taxation relief etc, but I have too much on my mind right now.
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Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-22-03 05:46 AM
Response to Original message
16. Tiny, but real
Basically, the way the game works is that under Equal Protection arguments any formal distinctions between the two will soon get reduced to almost nothing. But the people who are most against "gay marriage" will fight to the death for that one last tiny distinction between 'marriage' and 'civil union'. No one really cares about what that final itty bitty distinction is in its (teensy) substance- it's symbolic and all sides will concede that.

In the traditional logic, marriage means a social contract in which the people being married subordinate their sexual behavior to the arrangements imposed by the society (i.e. property, class behavior, responsibilities involving children and the partners), and society in return sanctions the sexual behavior and familial alliances/rancor about to take place.

Now the trick is not that the conservatives object to gay people wanting to subordinate themselves to society's norms and arrangements (sheesh, finally!) or taking on responsibilities. It's the sanction in return that they can't stomach conceding. (As a gay friend of mine said, 'Marriage means: sanctioned sex.') 'Civil union' means, by comparison, a glorified business contract- it is subordinate to, but not part of, the Social Contract, whereas marriage nominally is.

So getting the word 'marriage' is the most important thing politically. It's presently better to obtain something that is (initially) pretty deficient as a bureaucratic matter and legal definition and called 'marriage' than something perfect which will be segregated away, treated as second class in the 'separate but equal' manner, as 'civil union'. The semantics of the governmental order declare first or second class citizenship, it's that brutally simple.

I think your attempt to find a wedging issue is noble but easily foiled by politicians. The best wedge I see is attitudinal empiricism, juxtaposing freedom against 'traditional morality' proposing the latter to be out of whack. "Hey, it doesn't cost me a cent or any dignity, straight people have given marriage a bad name anyway, and only ungenerous old people and irrational wackos are against it for reasons that really make no sense to me" is about right.

****

The way the political game seems to be playing it seems like Republicans are sending up the trial balloons and not liking the results enough. I'm sure the Religious Right is against gay marriage, but the business Republicans are all over the place- probably sufficiently split that the GOP won't dare to become all that aggressive nationally. The political fault line is presently more favorable to Republicans than Democrats, but on the one hand Democrats are more flexible and reduce social issue splits much more efficiently in recent years, and on the other Republicans can't afford to net lose any voters anymore.

I think the Republicans are nervous and circumspect enough about it to ultimately not actually start going through with the federal constitutional amendment process until the '04 elections have passed. Some hothead will try at some point before, but their national problem goes away if they can manage to strangle the problem in the crib- inside the political process in Massachusetts. If they manage to do that then they can avoid all their internal schisms as well as demagogue their bigotry indirectly via claiming virtue in stopping such a "dangerous measure". They won't embrace the anti-gay marriage line directly, at least not in front of TV cameras and real journalists.

I'm expecting the GOP to demagogue things to a limited degree nationally but mostly to focus their efforts in the matter here in the Commonwealth until mid-May or so, when the Legislature's deadline to enact what the Goodridge v. MDPH verdict says is reached. The more conservative Democrats in our state government are willing to try to sabotage things, of course, but everyone there knows this is probably the biggest game- of true national precedence- of their professional lives. They're licking their fingers and holding them to the wind. If he gets too clearly on the wrong side, Romney's ambitions are done for. If they get it wrong House Speaker Finneran and Senate Leader Traveligni are finished- and subsequent investigations of their other doings by their enemies will likely land them in courts, if not jail, for a long time. The House and Senate folk are hoping it gets a little out of control and burns Romney and Finneran and some others badly, so I think they're holding back, ready to dash some gasoline in at the end if voter anger doesn't do the job.

It seems reasonable to me to expect things to seem pretty much all gossip and prattle until February or so, when the GOP and other conservative forces (the RC Church and the like) run the first ambushes, set up the first showdowns and tests of strength, start up the agitprop, etc. Things will seem problematic for a while, seem to dangle without a decision or look quasi-bleak, then heat up to glowing white in early May. But I expect the forces of Light to prevail, seemingly just barely, at the deadline itself. You won't being hearing much polite language out of Massachusetts residents for a good part of that time- we will not be impressed positively with most of what we'll be seeing, our state government is a perpetual object of contempt and disgust. Enjoy what you can of what you see of Barney Frank, though, the man is magisterial and relentless and going to be crucial in winning this one.



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