Remember when all we cared about at DU was beating Bush?

Those were the days. Sure, we had our Green/Dem flame wars, and we gnashed our teeth when the Democrats did not fight back as hard as they should. But most of the time, we were gathered together in the deepest desire to throw Bush out the door.

I know it is campaign season. I know people get passionate about their candidates. I know that passion sometimes manufactures statements like this, which I pulled out of another thread. This is about a candidate who will not be named, posted by a DUer who will not be named:

"He has no morals or ethics. He talks out of both sides of his mouth. He's a hypocrite. He says attack Bush but spends half his time attacking other Democrats. He's smoke and mirrors. He's all talk and no action. He's not a leader, he's a compromiser. He's condescending and stereotypes peope. He's a disaster."

It really doesn't matter which candidate this was directed at. It is the distilled essence of the way a lot of people here have been treating a lot of other people, and treating pretty much all the candidates.

No one is innocent of this. All the candidates apparently suck equally, and all the supporters of these candidates are unethical, dishonest, blind, compromised or otherwise morally challenged...if you believe what you read here.

I'm not saying let's all just get along, or anything like that. I just miss the DU that wanted to beat Bush. This DU seems to want to beat itself. It's a bummer.

Nailed it, you did. Been thinking the same, a lot, lately.

Trouble is, I just don't have as big a mouth as you. ;-)

On edit: I forgot to mention how much this troubles me. It troubles and worries me greatly. I mean one hell of a lot.

...as of yet. I'm NOT going to get into a pissing match on this issue.

- I'll support every candidate...but reserve the right to criticize the Democratic party when they don't fight the good fight.

i agree completely

and it was definitely a mistake.

...against the Bush* cabal.

- Don't let the 'my penis is bigger than yours' posters get you down. They seem to have no idea what you're trying to say in this thread.

Boy did I mess up. I went with Clark then I went for Dean and today I have no idea who I want.
Well at least I know we do have great choices and the fact that its so hard to pick is a testimony to that. Even though I made the mistake of actually picking one too soon.

BTW we need each other. Lets remember that.

While I do have a favorite candidate, I realize that he has little chance. Since I want to see Bush beaten so badly, I have stayed out of the fray.

Here's to the Democratic candidate who can beat Bush, whoever he or she may be!

I am not still undecided just to keep above the DU-candidate nonsense ...

I'm undecided because I think it is foolish to commit this early ... give the candidates time to find their voice ... let them comment on the events of the day ... a good judgment rendered on an event that happened months ago may be balanced with a poor judgment on an event tomorrow ... what's the rush? remember the old saying, time is knowledge ... well, maybe that's not exactly the old saying ... but it's still true ...

btw, it's not that i'm actually "undecided" ... i've decided to withhold judgment for now ... that's a decision, isn't it?? i prefer the term: "unaligned" ...

As far as all the candidate hoopla goes, I'm just waiting to find out who to support for the nomination, and waiting to piss on the Bushco parade.

but I think it's beating your head against a wall. I have a preferred candidate, but I have NEVER attacked any other candidate here. Not once.

Some people, however, feel the only way to boost their candidate is to tear down the others. I think it's stupid, but they don't let me imprison all the stupid people, at least not until my revolution.... bwahahahahaha

Didn't reps use all of Bradley's anti Gore statements???

I think you just encapsulated everything that has been going on here into one, succinct post. Congratulations and thank you for exposing the general, untold sentiment.

It's almost like saying "if my candidate doesn't win the nomination, then to hell with the Democratic Party, we'll jus tlet Bush win again.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

:)

You read me like a book, seventhson. Really. Really, you do.

:eyes:

I corrected the damn spelling. I type dyslexically.

But I am a narcissist like you Will. It takes one to know one.

But my advice, while bitter, is meant to be sweet: if you follow my advice you will feel much better.

Put the lime in the coconut and call "the Doctor" in the morning.

DEAN that is.

And that meme is being spread to all those young people who are just starting to get into politics. You all must be so proud to smear as corrupt the ONE lawmaker who has exposed more government corruption than any in modern history. More than ANY of the other candidates PUT TOGETHER.

>>>>>>>
Issues are irrelevant in a political campign.

Only the perception matters. Kerry is a Bush enabler and corrupt Washington insider. In case you had not noticed, that is the current great sin in politics. Being an insider, "typical politician." By 2008, it may be something else, but right now that is THE worst thing a candidate can be seen as. Kerry is seen as such, and therefore his campaign is dead. Finito. Belly up. Pushing up daises. Out to pasture. Passed on. The Kerry campaign's inability to recognize this trend and adapt to it only shows that he would be equally rigid and uncreative as President, which is why he will never BE President.
>>>>>>>>

Shame on all who spread that meme. Worthy of Segretti.

the mote from your eye.

I calls 'em like I sees 'em.

You have put it very succinctly and you too will feel better when you call "the Doctor"

man

It's so much better without all the childish bickering around here.

Oh, wait...

You complain about people who have ignored WIll's plea, but in another post in this thread you call it a "cheap shot"

Just so you know. I wrote them.

with Clark a close second. I think Kerry will do much better than anyone thinks but I will be ready to support whomever wins the nomination.

Get behind the winner and quit blaming your fellow DUers for your being a bad judge of character and political viability.

Are you suggesting that we all adopt a tow the line, freeper mentality? I don't think so seventhson.

or a Rethug-lite.

Nothing freeperish about that. Freepers support Bush. Kerry voted for Bush's war and the restrictions on our liberties and freedoms. Clark raised funds for Bush and worked for the guys who gave Bush $100,000 in 2001 *Stephens Groupo. Google it)

If we tow any line it should be for democracy, freedom and the OPPOSITE of what the freepers want.

But, hell, in the primaries for me it is anybody but Kerry, Clark, or Lieberman.

To throw in the towel and give up on ones particular candidate, merely because they are experiencing some downs is quite another.

There is NO WAY Dean will beat Bush and believe it or not I first supported him...that is until I saw more of an arrogant doctor than someone who really wants to bring this country together.

Do you realize how that sounds?

No thank you.

Edwards or Clark or Kerry.

If the Democrats in Iowa and New Hampshire drink the kool-ade, I fear we Democrats are screwed in November--all the way down the ticket.

It is WAY TOO EARLY to annoint Dr. "You Have the Power" Dean!

Oh to have a linguist deconstruct some of the language around here.

(except Repukes) with these petty rants against WilliamPitt.

Are you drunk or something?

If the press won't report on anything but Michael Jackson and Kobe Bryant, what does it matter?

Howard Dean is consistent on abortion and gay rights. That's it. He's the exact compromising centrist pink tutu that he rails against. It's disgusting. He's what's wrong with this party, not what's right with it. And I'll keep saying it and saying it. It isn't any worse than anything Howard Dean has said about the Democratic Party anyway.

you decided to take upon yourself to throw out there. Why wouldn't I stand by them? I've made absolutely no secret about what I think about Howard Dean. I have no problem with Clark, Edwards, even Gephardt. Dean just listens to the words of a few pissed off people, then makes it campaign 'policy'. Unless he has to back off his words because he 'misspoke' or 'evolved' or was 'quick-tempered'. Watch how fast he changes his tune on deregulation. I can't stand him.

It's fun to watch because of supporters like you!

Then how fun will it be?

:-)

you make it sound like we've already won.

and with the precedent Bush* set in 2000, some think that's enough to beat "Undecided"

As I recall, Kerry is polling a strong second in NH. Certainly strong enough to pull ahead considering that Dean has consistently been putting his foot in his mouth.

His campaign staff is quitting, and he put most people to sleep.

Stick a fork in him.

Believe it, he's done.

Dean will be then be toast. It could well happen.

He's been running around the state talking in favor of gun control. That's political suicide in NH because the state is EXTREMELY pro-gun rights.

Yeah, he's really tanking.

2nd or 3rd won't make it.

Here's a suggestion...

Spend less time hating Dean, and more time volunteering for your candidate.

Maybe then he'll be first.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

And why don't you worry about your candidate and I'll worry about mine.

I don't have to "worry" about my candidate.

You do.

:-)

vote in the south--which is where I have live ALL my life--YOU DO!

Arrogance--once again from the Dean camp. I like Dean and believe he has a powerful voice for the Democratic party--cheerleader voice-but as far as being President, he does not have the electoral support and THAT'S what wins elections.

Onviously, Dean will win. :-)

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I hate to see what's happening. And I hate to see people chortling about it. I, too, think Kerry has probably lost whatever momentum he had. I would wind up supporting him if he were the nominee. Now I'm pretty sure he won't be.

I'd probably feel differently if Lieberman's candidacy was faltering like this. But people have supported Kerry for some very understandable reasons and a lot of them feel a sense of hope from him that I feel from Howard Dean. And that should be respected. Because if Dean IS the one, we're gonna need ALL the Kerry people, AND the Lieberman people AND the Kucinich people AND the Sharpton people AND the Clark people and EVERYBODY ELSE, BESIDES!!!!

Let's try to come together on this, a little more, PLEASE!!! NO GLOATING!!!! Let's save THAT for November, 2004, when we've shown that spoiled brat dilletante squatter who'll be boss, shall we?

You hate Dean. Hey, whatever. I would hope you want Bush & Co. gone more than anything.

Dean may get the nomination, and we gotta be together - anything less is support for Bush & the continuation of his policies.

Let's keep our eyes on the prize!

fsr

always try to scare people about Social Security--like he is NOT a Democrat, himself?

He has said this before, and I find it strange. But perhaps it is not a big leap from calling all the members of Congress cockroaches.

The Dems in Vermont said he always scorned them publically.

where's Bill Maher? I need a definite "yes" or "no"...

The Dems he's no doubt referring to are the ones who will vote for all of the coalition leader's proposals. We've already heard that if we don't settle for this bill, there won't be time for another. Is this deja vu? It's a trick by the wh, again.

I didn't hear the interview, but these maneuvers that the repups use to get everything screwed up are the only transparency within this admin.
...
"But the biggest culprit is President Bush, who has made it clear that he will sign any Republican-designed bill, especially if its flaws can be disguised for a few years, for the transparent and cynical purpose of taking a potent Democratic campaign issue off the table, at least until after the 2004 elections. The GOP's rush job in seeking Congressional approval of the bill before its patent inadequacies become apparent -- indeed, before Members of Congress even have the opportunity to read it -- is part and parcel of the overall Bush plan to subordinate substance to the crassest kind of political symbolism.

We sympathize with those centrist Democrats who may be tempted to hold their noses and vote for the bill, just as they sympathize with seniors who are expecting some help from their government with rapidly rising prescription drug costs. We agree that the current proposal does represent incremental progress on a few important issues: stabilizing funding for private health plans and providers participating in Medicare as it is currently constituted, improving care for people with chronic conditions, and establishing new budget rules that account for all of Medicare's expenditures, not just those in the hospital trust fund.

But all in all, this rough beast offers far less than it promises, at a much higher price than it admits.
http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=131&subid=192&contentid=252189
...

What is the justification for Democrats who will vote for this bill? Scare tactics. Not the truth: "we can do better".
....

Another thought for you. Gov Dean was specifically answering a question about "entrenched beltway bureaucrats". He used a simile, which is a figure of speech in which two essentially unlike things are compared. So when we examine how the english language is actually practiced, we can very easily see that he did not say that "all the members of Congress {are} cockroaches".

I am certain he was not referring to your candidate. Everyone knows that Kerry is not an "entrenched beltway bureaucrat". After all, he has led the Hill in the fight against corruption. Isn't that correct?

I think we have a new record! I can name two democrats who have been trying to scare people about social security. Kerry and Gephardt. But routinely misrepresent Dean's position on the issue, purposefully confusing past with present. It's not enough that neither of these two have a message that's worth anything at this point, they have to try to use misleading information to bring someone WITH a message down.

Oh well, you see it your way and I see it my way, and every day you remind me of how glad I am that Kerry won't be on the ballot in my state.

Attack, attack. Tear down. Marginalize. Criticize.

I'm a Democrat and proud. Dean needs to run as a Libertarian - cause that's what he is. Sadly, he's the Johnny come lately to the ideals of this party - and he seems to want to destroy it.

Dean is poison.

Dean is the spawn of lucifer himeself! Zell Miller? Feh! Dean makes Zell Miller look like Dennis Kucinich.

I mean, he EATS BABIES! Doesn't that tell you something? Dean is so obviously the real enemy. The only thing he has proven is exactly how RETARDED the 500,000 people who have signed up on his list are. Not a brain cell between them. God I HATE those people SO MUCH for being so stupid as to support Dean.

Hep needs to INVENT his opponents positions in order to avoid addressing what his opponents truly believe.

and trying to listen a whole lot more lately.

It's just easier, really informative and actually alot more fun!

WHICH one has the best chance of beating bush??? To me, all else is relatively trivial.

But we do have posters who appear ONLY to put down the candidate(s) they hate. What a sad function.

I'm a new DUer and removed my candidate's avatar. I haven't yet and don't plan on getting into any of the discussions on which candidate is better. To me they are all better than the twig.

estas en Peru?

pero mi espanol es mal. :)

If we're having arguments about candidates, I'll bet the farm that there are similar confrontations going on all over the country, and will go on until the convention. There are interests supporting Dean, and interests supporting Kerry, and Kucinich, and Clark, etc.

The bickering on DU is not just DU. It's just that it's so easy to bicker here :D

and dehead him also.

Thanks for the ammo.

As a Dean supporter, I'm pretty appalled. And I can't believe some of the things I've just read about Kerry. He's not my #1, but he deserves better than that.

they made me very angry. I have not stated a preference and I stay out of those threads entirely now. They used to make me ashamed - almost as ashamed as I am when * makes one of his stupid terra, hate our freedoms speeches. I stopped reading them when I realized I was beginning to have negative feelings about a candidate because of a poster who supported that candidate. I wouldn't want to be influenced in my vote because I didn't like what that candidate's supporters say.

For one thing, a thread like this one is sure to attract some one who will make a jab at another person who agrees with you, just because he doesn't like the same candidate.

for me to get bogged down in all the candidate preference brouhaha. I am here for one reason only, to hang with like minded people who want W and all the other Bushies out of American politics. I have a candidate but it is my business. I have no time to try to get others here to support him/her. I am willing to let the primary/caucus process select a candidate. Whomever that is will get my vote. Candidate flaming is pointless, ineffective and divisive IMO. Surely there are very few regulars here who are as yet undecided. Just spend you energy working with those of your acquaintance who are undecided or unwilling to vote. That is where your passion will bear the most fruit.
Woof

last night. I felt as though I was surrounded by Freepers. I guess there is ugly on both the left and the right. That is why I'm trying to stay in the center cuz the fringes are frightening!

Saving my beloved nation from bush is my priority .

"Focuss Focuss Focuss" as my ballet teacher used to say

seems to be the general mood everywhere I go lately. Mind you they don't let me out often, but when I am out everyone says things like
Sales suck.
Food prices are outragous.
I'm loosing my hair.
Does this look infected ?
All the cantidates suck.
Kerry who ?
Dean who ?
Bush , why does that name sound familiar ?
Damned spam.
Retarded telemarketers.
God, I'm broke.
I can't even get a Mcjob.
Stupid car.
Damned nightly news selling shit stories no one cares about while the world burns.

Strangely I feel better now.



"We are the flame at night, the fire in the trash. We are motorhead, born to kick your ass "

in a teapot.

And make it entertaining.


There is nothing wrong with DU in my opinion.

You are disappointed because Kerry's chances are fading, that's all.

It has nothing to do with the fact that more and more DUers are more galvanized than ever to beat Bush. You seem to miss this.

England is raising hell against Bush. Miami is in flames over Bush policies and oppression.

Bush is even going down in effigy.

And yet you seem only to care that Kerry is going down with him.

He deservesd to go down because of his Iraq vote: it has meant the unjust death of tens of thousands.

You should be CHEERING the fact that he is losing and that the DEMS are gaining - even if it is with DEAN and not Kerry.

Things are looking UP, Will.

But you refuse to see it.

but I'll try anyway:

seventhson, I really do wish you'd spare me the psychoanalysis. In truth, Kerry and his fate were completely absent from my thinking when I posted this thread. 100% not there at all. I'm sure you won't believe that, but it's true.

There. I tried.

We're all here to choose the least sucky candidate. Anybody but Bush, but we do want them to suck as little as possible.

Oh how the mighty have fallen!

because no one wants to actually feel guilty for acting like a complete asshole.

What does other people's feelings have to do with Will's intent and/or the accuracy of what Will is saying? Or is this just more of the "attack the critics, ignore the issues" tactics we've come to know and love?

"It's a good thing you guys took Pitt's words to heart". Now you call it a "cheap shot"

Which is it?

you make some good points.

However I don't think that we could put a moratorium on candidate-bashing. It's all part of the primary process. B-)

"moratorium" is what will happen when bush wins in 2004 because OUR base--once again--is NOT united. The Democratic party has a huge umbrella, but I'll be damned if I stand in the rain for a renegade.

I have some major problems with Dean.

I've been here less than two months. The candidate flame wars were not the first thing I tuned into. I hung out at LBN and the Meeting Room. When I found them, at first, I did jump into a lot of candidate controversy threads. Since then I have noticed a lot of new members do this. I gave it up for the most part and refuse to participate in "rescue my candidate" themes unless there is a good reason. Sometimes when I have seen a Dean slug-fest thread, I have posted one reply, inserting the basher's candidate's credentials
... just to change the 'focus' for a moment.

But this doesn't seem to be a 'new' phenom. I've only been able to search the archives back to July, but the exact same thing was going on then.

I think there is a subset at DU (and in society) who like to be as rude and loud as possible. Also humans are very reactionary.

I don't think it will end until a candidate is selected, and then only if things go smoothly.

The whole world is on fire and in conflict. It can become very depressing. Sometimes I am able to loosen up and just realize this is just a period of history which follows many violent periods of history, and will be followed by .probably. more violent periods of history. Maybe something will crack someday and we can become a peaceful planet. But I really have my doubts.

You can see by the following threads that this has been going on for at least the past five months. I think that's why a lot of people are sick of it ... I am after less than two months.

But it is still worth sticking around here because I think there are many more members who do NOT make it their DU mission to propagandize against other candidates.

Kerry and Dean Set on a Collision Course
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=2233

Why take a bashers word for anything? (dean on pot)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=91

Hilarious Dean Quote
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=120

Dean Backtracks on Medical Marijuana
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=10

Kerry advisor: "We can take out Howard Dean whenever we want to"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=76

Both sides of a candidate dispute can be equally rude and downright mean at times.
Here are some more somewhat humorous examples:


Carlyle, Carlucci, Wolfowitz, and Clark : Strange Bedfellows??? NOT.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=80225

Okay Then: Does the Clark connection to Bush Backers Bother anyone?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=79583

Don't Shoot the Messenger: Is Clark a Bushzi???
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=79539

Dean is a dishonest, lying politician
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=38692

Dean lied on CNN this morning. Said he wanted a discussion about race.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=78149

of them .. but I think you can see that there are a few who keep these threads going .. the same ones over and over .. If people don't want to play, it will die out. But there seems to be a market for it so far.

It sounds like blunt, straight talk to me. Would you rather that we bury our heads in the sand? If a Republican candidate did what this un-named candidate did the supporters of this un-named candidate would be denouncing the Republican candidate in unison.

the kind of September
when Bush was the focus, and such an evil fellow.

Try to remember the burning embers
of our justified anger and our strong pained bellow!

Try to remember and if you remember then follow...

ABB Baby!

... when people hijack your thread with the very behavior you are lamenting?

This stuff happens! B-)

If anything, this thread proves Will right. I've removed the candidate tags from my sig after the 2003 off-year elections...I'm still a Dean supporter, but I've decided that ABB is more important.

(I probably ought to re-add the ABB tag....)

but since you said it, yeah. Then again, it makes my case quite nicely. :)

Was it when I expressed deep fear for the Kerry campaign?

Did you hear he lost another top-level staffer today?

It's not pontification when it's right.

Why are like-minded progressives and liberals making "enemy" lists with each other?

Gee, do they put their Mommy on that list when she votes differently than they do?

Bertrand Russell is my hero.

but the mere fact you suggest we shouldn't complain about or criticise any of our candidates. None of them are above criticism, and we can in no way damage any of them in any way whatsoever. Some say here we are helping Rove by doing so and frankly that is ridiculous. The truth is that rallying around Dean and hiding or ignoring or dismissing his very real flaws, weaknesses, and liabilities does more to help Rove than anything else.

It's how much hate and filth you can spread in one day.

You're blowing the curve.

you might want to re-read some of your own posts in this thread.

nt

Hooboy. Thanks for going to the trouble to show me the error of my ways. Now I hate Dean and anyone who demonstrates their utter stupidity by supporting him, too. Good job!

but I also don't mind saying that I think every one of the Democratic candidates is outstanding and would clean Bush's clock ina fair election.

I will enthusiastically support whomever the Democratic Party nominates.

I must admit, I'd be a little more enthusiastic about some candidates than for others, but I'm more than a little disgusted by the way some here at DU behave like rival cliques of 9th graders.

I surrender. The Dean bashers have won. And by bashers, I don't mean the people who have legitimate questions or concerns about Dean, but rather, the people who intentially and habitually lie about, distort, or misrepresent Dean's positions as if it were some type of sick sport. You know who you are. And by won, it doesn't mean that I will stop supporting Dean or promoting him whenever I have the chance, but rather, I have decided to let the bashers suffer with their vitriolic pablum unopposed by me.

The sad thing is, if they actually fairly represented Dean's
positions, they would still have room to criticize him + have credibility to boot. Yes, this would also mean embracing such non-Republican tactics such as finding common ground, conceding well made points, or occasionally admitting (*gasp*) that they were wrong. But in those instances where they actually did have valid arguments, they could be made in such an manner as to actually have an impact. Because they certainly don't now.

How am I supposed to take the predictions or advice of bashers seriously when it's obvious they don't even understand some of the most basic concepts of social strategy? Such as the importance of consistancy in the art of persuasion? Or the value of respecting the differences of others?

Pfft.

I'm tired of arguing with children while our country is being systmatically raped by fascists. Honest debate is a healthy and democratic pursuit, (and it's an attempt I'm stilling willing to make), but the only accomplishment the bashers can really claim is tragically wasting the time and energy of people which is desperately needed elsewhere. Which of course, may be the point.

Sorry for the rant, I'm just more aware than usual that in the real world, the hearts and heads of good people are being served as hors d'oeuvres to the gluttons who are devouring this planet. It's time I got back to the real fight: exposing b*sh as the monster he is, and promoting the Democratic Party as a viable, and necessary alternative.

Howard Dean can handle himself.

(P.S. Nice post Will)

I celebrate having a choice and what a great group of candidates. The rethugs could never have a field like this. We R fortunate. The rethugs R stuck w/ squatter - pathetic!

and even trying to bring attention to HOW we can work together and WHAT may work just doesn't get it here these days. It makes me sad, 'cause in the meantime Bush is building his arsenal of momentum...and some people just don't see it.

It is such a naive thought, to think for one second that Bush can be beaten with all the crap he has stacked against him. He will win...as of now...he will win, but in the meantime, some will still be bashing the candidates--who are on our side--all the way to 2004.

I just don't get it. I've posted a recent thread on Karl Rove and his "genuis" way of winning and some just looked at it as if I was blowing smoke out of my ass.

I come here to this site to get inspired and revived on winning against Bush, but lately it only depresses me.

But I refuse to give up. My kids won't let me.

and have no intention of doing so.

We are crazy to be doing Uncle Karl's work for him.

Thank you for saying it Will. It needs to be said again and again

and AGAIN AND AGAIN!

I refuse to provide cannon fodder for the repukes against one of our own. Who ever gets nominated deserves the utmost support from the party. Althought we have clear front runners, we have no nominee yet. Let us not provide sound bites for the other party. The candidates seem to be doing a good enough job of that.

unfortunately, only to be replaced with even sillier misdirections and absurdities.

and how suddenly our biggest issue for 2004 is gay marriage

and other boards. I have associates who have infiltrated the campaign and they swear that the operatives maintain round the clock vigilance. But they don't want you to know that (since these posters are just "grass roots enthusiasists")

over estimating the importance of DU .. but hey, I'll check it out. I need a job. The campaign does have a 'rapid response' team, all unpaid volunteers. Is that what your "associate" is talking about?

Anything said by people who have associates who 'infiltrate' a campaign are pretty suspect in my view.

There are indeed people working within the campaign who are there not because they have swayed by Dean's message. Perhaps the campaign should start looking for my associates (not associate) a little harder.

I inadvertently called them "moonies" one time and got alerted within minutes by about 12,000 Deanies who turned me into the mods.

I like Dean, but the Deanies on this board and elsewhere make me a little uncomfortable.

his campaign surviving the Repug smears. I think his rapid response was actually campaign staff. With Dean and the quick response of the blog, we all have the capacity to be part of the Rapid Response, not just those in the DeanRR or Dean Defense. I think this type of strategy is ESSENTIAL, knowing what Rove is capable of. The primary is just the warm up. When the real sh!t hits the fan, we'll be grateful to have an efficient, effective swarm o' hornets raring to go!

However, I do think sometimes the RR goes overboard. I'd rather have response delegated so it isn't too overwhelming. I think when too many people respond, the result may be the opposite of what was intended.

That's a winning strategy in this small sphere. If it wins the race, then good on him. The other candidates didn't do it, and there you go.

while they're there. I enjoy the possibilities.

Khephra is a DUer in good standing, and posts Dean threads all the time. Is he an 'infiltrator'? There are hundreds of DUers who only post in threads about particular subjects. Are they 'infiltrators'? Besides, like I said, brilliant for Dean's people to come up with this tactic. He's not running away with the nomination by accident.

the Dean campaign and are gathering intelligence for other candidates. Not that I have any problem with that at all...

2 seperate points:
1 There are paid Dean operatives posing as "grass roots enthusiasists"
2 There are "spies" within the Dean campaign (this is how I know about the bogus "enthusiasts")

:tinfoilhat:

Are you saying that people have infiltrated the Dean campaign, and then gone second-stage to infiltrate forums as Dean supporters? Who are these people? What are their true loyalties? Can your friend confirm any of this? I'm asking as a journalist.

and they are also reporting "inside intelligence" back to other campaigns. This is nothing new (has gone on in many campaigns before)

but I guess it provides cover. You know, diligently working for the campaign and all.

I seriously doubt there are paid enthusiasts. There are people on the staff who have the job of reading and posting on the blog, and everyone knows they are official. But with such a HUGE free following, it is absurd to think that anyone needs to be paid to pretend to be a regular poster. I could understand such a strategy in the early days, or on a stagnant blog (*cough* like some others *cough*), but Dean's blog moves too fast to even keep up with, so what would be the logic in paying someone to post??

if it helps you sleep better.

But remember: someone initially had to churn this frothing mass (just as they have to get the "spontaneous grass roots" memes out there)

I did that. And a bunch of my friends. Yep, started out as four people, now it's four hundred, soon, four thousand. Not one of us paid a dime, but all of us rapidly reaching our spending limit for candidate advocacy as well as our limits for campaign contributions. And I make less than $30G a year.

So yeah, I'll keep telling myself that, not because I sleep better, but because it's true. YOU check my sig.

Isn't it a hoot that some people think Dean's whole grassroots campaign is The Big Lie? I guess those people I met at the Dean meet-up in my little old southern town were figments of my imagination. :crazy:

Yeah, I like your sig line.

I've been to freeper boards like Frogweenies and Free Republic, and I can honestly say that there is a higher percentage of people here that I'll be happy to never meet face to face. They just wallow in shit, that's all they do.

I wonder what you statements about others says about you

you can put your mind at ease

Oooooooooooooooooh, scathing!

I just love it when people illustrate their idiocy. Saves me the effort.

You think you're the first person who has tried to use that line?

Lameass! That's so cute! Trust me, you're not the guy we try to appeal to.

Paid? There isn't a paid Dean representative in my whole state.

This is where you PROVE me wrong!

Let's go, flat earth, what do you have?

Really? When do I get my check :shrug:

:shrug:

The bennies suck

..or repub/DLC/freeper operatives, for that matter.

Deanies.

and you are whining about infiltrators?

I find it amusing

Coverage is to the 'mainstream' media!

A Cancer.

Oh well Will, I knew what ya meant, and I miss those days too.

Peace!

:hippie:

I treat all candidates equally. I've never said one bad thing about any one of them. I will support and of the candidates for president. After all, the main goal is to get rid of that son of a bitch we have for president.

As a newbie to being politically active as well as a newbie to DU, I'd like to say great post! I have always voted in elections, but never got involved at the primary level before, and only ever gave my time to a candidate once in my life before now. I guess I was unprepared for how territorial and combative it can be within the party. A friend of mine (IRL) who supports another candidate kinda woke me up to that. But as much as that part has been a rude awakening, I will also say I doubt I will ever be politically passive again. I'm learning as I go... I just have to get a thicker skin.

Welcome to DU it can be nasty in here but its also an awsome source of information!

I have gotten a lot of great information here over the last couple months, and eventually, the force pulled me in, and posting was inevitable;-)

but as you can see it did not work. It looks like we would rather bash our candidates then beat*****. The people who are paid to watch the Democratic Underground are not being paid by Dean. Think Karl and his rethugs. Boy do we give them ammo. If you want to gain support for your candidate, try telling us what is great about him. The rethugs will tell what is bad about the other guy. Ah, the hell with it, Go Dean!

and it seemed as though every thread had the same I'm right/your wrong posters, arguments included pro or anti Israel, Florida election/BBV, Iraq/WMD, ad infinitum. This drove me from this board to other boards like Bartcop & Cspan; not looking for democratic serenity, but diversity of argument. You can't be from Boston not looking for an argument, right Will? We are pros.

What a dull place this would be if we all thought alike. You might be tired of the same old, same old. I know. I forget when offline, that the nonDU human I just got through talking at (not to), has no interest in my strong political opinions, and may consider me quite a bore, imagine? Then, I know it's time to take a break. That's why you don't see many posts from me. Know when to hold/fold thing.

Sometimes rabble rousing wakes people up. Sometimes I need to hear things I don't want to look into. Maybe the delivery is questionable but I need to think about it. What was it that iritated me? Was it the message or the messenger? Maybe the messenger reminds me of me. Maybe I'm protesting too much and am tired of my own material. Even the 2nd Continental Congress had rewrites.

So ya, they (candidates) all have flaws, and together would make a great cyborg.

In my mind, this is the plan. Enough moving targets can get hit but not take down the party. That is the goal of the opposition.
Desolation (cue Moody Blues)
Every reference to liberals as evil, traitors, red diaper doper babies, fascists, commies, blah blah blah.
So no one will want to be thought of as a Democrat.
No association what so ever to this party.
Clearly you must see that from the Coulter, Savage, Hannity, Limbaugh, spew.
Not for us, who have a voice, but the silent majority. The ones who are afraid to stand against the tide.
The ones who went through McCarthism.
It's farther reaching that Green/Dem. Those who does not march to the hype drum.

We have much bigger battles. Watch the history channel this week. Remember the price paid to be a Democrat. It's the sad toll paid to the gatekeepers. If you watch C-Span day after day, you wonder how they can deal with that crap continuously.

Heard Ted Kennedy say in an interview, that's what makes it work.

Everyone's all for "anyone but Bush" as long as that "anyone" is the candidate they currently support. Unfortunately, only ONE of them is going to be the Democratic Party standard bearer and that is going to leave a lot of disappointed and bitter people who feel passionately about the candidate they currently support. We are all going to have to seriously start wrapping our minds around the possibility that we may end up with a candidate that we might not like. I don't know what I'm going to do if it ends up being Lieberman or Gephardt but the possibility exists and I'm going to have to deal with it.

is better used directed toward the unelected fraud, and an organized
effort to make it unbearable for the corp. media to control the
perception of the dems. Look, we can't buy a network and be effective
by next year. I suggest a stopdrlaura style campaign against NBC.

I say if your going to be in the war business,
then get the fuck out of the news business.

That Joe Scarborough is such a fraud.




"Pray for the dead and fight like hell for the living"
Mother Jones

but thankfully and hopefully once the nomination is decided we will all rally around the nominee and it will be "all for one, one for all" again with the target being Bush.

I'll support anybody. I think sometimes the voices of the few can drown out the resolve of the many.

wholeheartedly.

Some people want to triangulate a candidate to beat the Republicans on their own issues, others want a more responsive, more strongly defined Democrat to revitalize the Democratic party's identity and effectivesness.

This battle is being played out now.

but get everybodies boots wet. Ya wanna know who I'd support?

John Kerry - Intelligent Man. Has some good ideas. Would bring dignity back to the White House.

Howard Dean - Comes across as honest, intelligent (hey, he's a doctor!), and has a good record of centrist/liberal management. Would bring dignity back to the White House.

Dennis Kucininch - Very intelligent, and cares deeply about his constituency. Has many great ideas. Would bring honor and dignity back to the White House.

Wesley Clark - Very intelligent. Rhodes Scholar. Decorated general, respected by many people, both in and out of the Armed Services. Would bring honor and dignity back to the White House.

John Edwards - Intelligent. Has a great record of fighting for those who don't have the voice or strength to fight for themselves.

Carol Moseley Braun - Very intelligent. A good communicator with a good message. Besides being intelligent, she would be a great choice for the person to make history by being the first lady ever elected to the highest office in the land. Would bring honor and dignity back to the White House.

Al Sharpton - Very intelligent. A brilliant orator - get his message across better that practically anyone in the arena in the past 16 years. Doesn't speak in 'Washingtonese'. Would bring honor and dignity back to the White House.

Dick Gephardt - Very intelligent. Has a very long record of fighting for the everyday worker. Has shown some life, and has recently started criticizing the current maladministration. Would bring honor and dignity back to the White House.

Joe Lieberman - Intelligent. A Centrist. Makes some good points. Would bring honor and dignity back to the White House.

My point being? ANY of the 9 listed above is worthy of my support. I will support him or her against the illegal squatter that currently is living in Al Gore's house. Some of them have a better chance than others. I like some of them more than others. BUT REGARDLESS - whoever it is will get my support. Anything less than that, we will have four more years of the "Being There" president.

And that outcome will give us the push on the downhill trip to our country's decline into global mediocrity. We cannot afford that.

write an editorial that just bashed a candidate to shreds.... this is a State Dem Committe man....tell me what that's about.

Because I disagree and really, what's the point?

But there are two perspectives here.

From our end, the 'person on the street', I don't think this kind of debating hurts anyone. I think it helps us hone our message, and anticipate any attacks after the nomination, so we'll be better suited to deal with them. Also I think it helps those less given to independent research to gain insight into candidates they might not otherwise have received. And responses from defenders help there, too, so that there is a true balance of ideas.

Sure, some of us get defensive, irate, nasty, whatever -- we're all human and it is part of life. However I also think that we're not children. Some act like it (enemies list? wtf?), but most aren't, and we can expect they'll get over any petty bickering once the nomination is over. It's not too hard for me to look past it, even if it does irritate me at the time. It's not a mortal wound, for goodness' sake, just a difference of opinion!

Learning to work out our differences and accept them when we can't is a big part of growing up. We're not all going to agree on anything 100% (except ousting *), and IMO it's silly to even pretend we could or would. Accepting that we're all different and we're all entitled to our different beliefs should be easy.

However, bleedingheart made a good point. Our leadership should NEVER tear anyone to shreds. Critiquing policy stands is one thing, tearing down is quite another. IMO that person should receive a heck of a lot of mail about that piece. As should those in the party who can pull his reins in!

I used to come here every day whether I needed to or not. With all the candidate bashing threads, I no longer feel compelled to spend as much time. I will always love DU and DUers, but its really sad to watch all the bashing no matter where its from. Beat Bush in 04. If we don't do that, then all the bashing won't make a bit of difference.

I stated an opinion that 1) Rove and Co would make 2004 about national security and, hence, 2) Clark was, in my estimation, the only likely candidate that could take them on, on that turf.

I got pretty roundly toasted for that remark.

Except for Lieberman (which would force me to vote Green/Indie), I'll get behind anyone who can beat the SOB.