Tommy Franks speculates Martial Law?

It seems Tommy Franks is quoted as saying that if another terrorist attack occurs in the US "the constitution will likely be discarded in favor of a military form of government". it's in Newsmax. The quote is from an interview in Cigar Aficianado.
Folks, this scares the shit out of me, but it's not totally unexpected. Bush would use this to remain in the White House.:think:

police and troops will turn on the American people.

Weren't they already doing that in Miami yesterday and today?

Tommy Franks may just be the harbinger for "things to come". These thugs have to do something. Nothing that they do is going right, people are starting to wake up and see the truth, and it is starting to look like Shrub's chances for re-election are getting slimmer and slimmer all the time, especially now that some of the dems are starting to fight back.

Oh yes, we will soon see "martial law" established in this country. At least I believe that to be true.

and by the way here is the actual quote and hold your nose when you
go to News max to read the whole article

If that happens, Franks said, “... the Western world, the free world, loses what it cherishes most, and that is freedom and liberty we’ve seen for a couple of hundred years in this grand experiment that we call democracy.”

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/11/20/185048.shtml

I hope we're not getting as paranoid as they are, but boy oh boy I wouldn't put declaring martial law past the BFEE

over "there".

if you mean FR,
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1026031/posts

Does anybody doubt that in the event of a WMD attack they would declare Martial Law? Of course not. That would have to happen in order to avoid mass panic, the public executing the entire Muslim population, etc.

...none of Clinton's chiefs of staff actually said it.

Polls are the worst ever for Bush/Cheney and they just
won't be able to cope!!!

I'm sure they will have a good seat to watch the fire works!!!

You're damn right we should be scared!!!

military force available stateside to pull it off, I wonder? I don't know much about current numbers in our armed forces, or exact details of what martial law would entail, but with significant troops in Afghanistan and Iraq, I would think it would be risky business. I'm quite certain there are citizens who would not be willing to submit quietly, and over any extended period of time, things would be bound to get ugly.

Wouldn't that spark a little thing called secession in the state of California? Bush isn't well loved out here, and if he invoked martial law I can bet you that Cali would take the opportunity to run for it. I would have no problem with helping my state pull it off too.

I trust you are aware in martial law if a government official were to even talk of such things they would be quickly shot?

How exactly to you seceed from the union if your state legislature/gov/etc is disbanded?

You would not have see a formal secession.

purely military, i bet not, but when martial law is declared, law enforcement join the ranks of the active military, reservists, ect.

i bet they would have enough to keep a firm grip on most of the nation

-LK

i bet they would have enough to keep a firm grip on most of the nation

Perhaps - but for how long? I suspect certain areas of the country would become extremely dangerous territory in a short amount of time.

I guess I'm just wondering how this would further their (Bush, his administration and their corporate pals) goals in any manner that would justify or outweigh the risk factor. They're struggling in Iraq...now just imagine the possible consequences of attempting to militarily enforce a lockdown on a nation as large as the U.S. - a nation of people armed to the teeth.

Manhattan has vanish in a terrorist nuke? What would be the mindset of the public then? How long would that mindset last? Different situation - Yes?

That they won't say they just narrowly foiled one and are decalring martial "until the emergency has passed."

Are discontented with what is happening in Iraq..

They know the score better than we do. Only the blind and loyal to the Junta would dare turn their guns on citizens!

against the invasion, but followed orders? Maybe General Franks is giving us a friendly warning of things to come. Interestingly enough, I suspect that conservatives (although they probably wish the left would shut up) are not in favor of discarding the Constitution.

Conservatives read Newsmax. I read this as a warning to conservatives. Watch who you vote for. Anyone but Bush might just be the lesser of two evils.

watch it, he may try to overthrow the current dictator.

in case you didn't know

In case YOU didn't know. :-)

BTW, I knew Tommy was retired, but in this hypothetical scenario (martial law) all bets are off on any law, rule, order or tradition.

Screw General Clark--lets get General Franks in the White House! It'll be Generally Fascistically Fantastic!

They'll just pin 5 stars on Busholini and call him a Generalismo

thats whats gonna push me over the edge to the anarchist position. hell before bush was elected i was an independent... how blind i was...

Molotov cocktail, anyone?

-LK

always splurge for the largest olives. It's all in the presentation.

Don't hold them underneath you when you get ready to lob them like they do in the movies. Just light the rag and lob it like a grenade, overhead.

MODS: I'm just stating technique. I'm not ACTUALLY advocating the use of that very famous drink.

i was kinda kidding about the whole thing, but good to know

-LK

Although I think I have an electronic copy of Steal This Book floating around on my PC somewhere, and the author describes proper techniques of using molotov, smoke bombs, knife fighting (already knew that stuff from Faire), living on the street well, organizing and counter-police tactics, the whole nine yards. Its the best handbook any urban guerilla could ask for.

id probably WOULDNT even go with violence as ANY option. anyway, that way when they pepper spray an unarmed teenager they look like the bad guys.

-LK

All I have to say is that I will not speak of my more radical activites until the statue of limitations runs out on what I did, and if I employ anything violent, I will make sure that somehow I will get away with my life and liberty intact. Sometimes force is the only recourse.

a float of your best armagnac makes the flame burn hotter. ;)

Also, why not add a *kicky* American flag dipped in finest Tenessee Bourbon for that "Patriotic" flair? :party:

MSNBC running it. The US Constitution, is that bigger than Jacko?

A search on news.google shows just 3 relevant hits:

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&edition=us&q=franks+constitution&btnG=Search+News

Now, IMO, this OUGHTA be on every friggin front page tomorrow morning. Franks' comments are treasonous are they not?

I read a column in the Albuquerque Journal about a week before 9/11 happened. The man who wrote the column had recently been out to Hopi, in Arizona. In the column he related part of his conversation with one of the spiritual elders, without naming the elder.

At any rate, the elder told the columnist that Americans better get ready for martial law, because it was coming soon. That was a seemingly preposterous statement, until a week or so later when 9/11 smashed into national consciousness, and BushCo failed to defend America -- could not even muster a pop gun to defend the Pentagon with a hour to respond? Pathetic, or treasonous, one or the other. As we all know, BushCo has used the pretext of 9/11 and the reality of FEAR (which it has agitated), to strip our nation of basic freedoms and rights. So now, at this juncture, the insight of the unnamed Hopi elder seems sadly to be entirely possible. Overnight. The iron fist which has encircled us, may close and clench.

It is then in my view that we will meet our true test as a nation. Are we strong and wise and courageous enough to restore the government the founders bequeathed to us -- a government of the people, by the people, and for the people.

Republican lurkers, please note well. You, too, will be tested. What do you really stand for? Think about it. Because as I see it, you are about to get a Royal Fascist Screwing, just as are the rest of the citizens of your nation, no matter their political affiliation. It really matters this time.

The hour draws near.

If something like martial law were to occur, and more importantly IF a terrorist strike were to happen here in the next few months, due to the doubt and continued scrutiny over the actions of this White House, how in the world would this even be allowed by Americans and our Congressional leaders?????

1. It is safe to assume that this Administration has set us up for something like this due to implementation of the Patriot Act and now potentially Patriot II, refusal to have a fair and conclusive investigation on 9-11, suppression of important information by the White House, the anthrax attacks and no further investigation, the whole procedure into the invasion of Iraq, , intent to invade Syria and/or Iran, invasion of privacy by John Ashcroft and his Department, monitoring, and intimidation of anyone who disputes the policies of the White House, and anti-war citizens and activists,the entire debacle with Enron and the energy scandal, and last but not least, the implementation of the Help America Vote Act which allows private, Republican owned corporations to control our voting system.

If this isnt enough evidence and support to defy martial law and impeach this Administration, I truly dont know what is.

Also, how much has the weakening of our Constitution and Bill of Rights benefitted this country and Americans and eliminating terrorism? None. It has done everything to excacerbate and invite more terrorism. And because of all this, we as Americans would further allow a police state? The only reason to place America under martial law would be to allow a totalitarian state and the Bush Administration to take full and ultimate control, which would result in the end of America. This is something everyone should go to the streets for NOW. And I mean everyone. Republicans and Democrats and Independents alike. TODO EL MUNDO. This is yet one more thing to impeach the entire Administration over. This would end our Democracy pure and simple and that seems to be their intent.

rethink what you have written from the scenario of a terrorist nuke taking out one of our cities.

They are aware of this article and are "following up". I think he implied there will be an article in the Times tomorrow. I should have asked more directly.

What Franks is saying is very f****** alarming.

attack. He said if the U.S. was hit by WMD with massive casualities, then the constitution would be in danger.

The constitution could survive another 9-11, but could it survive is one of our major cities vanished from a terrorist nuke?

It is intellecually dishonest to misquote somebody and then pillory them based on the misquote, instead of the quote.

"Gen. Tommy Franks says that if the United States is hit with a weapon of mass destruction that inflicts large casualties, the Constitution will likely be discarded in favor of a military form of government."

Franks certainly did not use the term "massive". He used "large". The original poster of this thread didn't quote anybody. I don't understand your complaint. Especially when you seem to be doing your own spin.

would be obvious. Even 9-11 was not a WMD attack. Are you unable to understand the difference between a WMD and other types of terrorist attacks?

I understand the current definition of "WMD" well enough to know that should a sarin attack similar to the Tokyo attack occur, we're under martial law.

Fewer people died in that WMD attack than died on 9/11.

Like I said, buy shotguns and lots of shells.

Try this: Very low flying aircraft, (Cesna 152)with homemade sprayer sprays Sarin on the Los Angeles freeways during morning rush hour.

Now please answer my question, which is what I think Franks was actually thinking of: What do you think would happen if one of our major cities were nuked by terrorists. To make things easy we shall assume a city other than Washington D.C. That is an entirely reasonable question to ask.

Plus, a casualty need not die.

Try again.

As for me, I'm picking up a 12 guage and about 200 rounds tomorrow.

I'll keep getting a box of shells weekly after that.

law, instead of speculating about the possible effects of an attack that leaves tens of thousands dead & injured.

Instead you are trying to play "legal beagle" and find some extremely low trigger threshold and then claim that is what he is talking about. Then you attack him on that interpretation. In the ordinary use of language, one would be thinking in terms of Hiroshima, not the Tokyo subway.

Now how about addressing my question. Sometimes we have to think about the unthinkable. What do you think would happen if we suffered a terrorist nuke attack on a major city? What would the mood of the public be?

WMD includes biological, chemical and nuclear weapons.

"Large" casualty counts is a debatable term. In most reports of casualties I've ever heard, anything over ten is referred to as "heavy". The casualty count in OKC was "large".

If there is ever martial law declared in this nation, I consider the nation dead and am out to defned myself, my family, and my home. I will recognize no authority.

terrorist took out a whole city? That's the level Franks is talking about. Not just a bomb and a few dozen.

(fallout gets blown away from you) and a huge part of your city was G-O-N-E you personally, as you watched the mushroom cloud climb, you would forget all of your cares about the Bill of Rights and all of that. You would only worry about survival.

If you lived in another part of the country you would be scared sh*tless that there might be another nuke in your city. You would be demanding that action be taken and you wouldn't care if the cops were a bit rough in the process, or even if thousands of innocents were questioned.

Survivale comes first. Always has, always will.

I sure as hell wouldn't trust or recognize any alleged "authority" in the anarchy of the aftermath.

by a dictatorship by whoever is strong enough to make it stick. Welcome to martial law.

Being armed is your single best chance in a situation like that.

talking about a planned takeover after the next bomb. So many people here have knee jerk reactions and never really think their way through some things.

Since part of the job of the military is to deliberately "think the unthinkable" and to ask what if, and to make reasonable preperations, depending on probability of the event, destructiveness of the event, & expense of preperations. At a minimum there is a set of contigency plans somewhere, (The military has contigency plans for everything.) for just such an event. And those plans will be broken down into different scenarios too.

And Franks has probably seen some of those plans, and has had to think of the horrible, "What if?". Somebody has to ask those questions.

Please don't attack him for thinking the unthinkable and realizing what a disaster it would be, and being open enough to talk about it. It gives all the more reason to get the international cooperation needed to stop terrorism.

That's why I believe a Tokyo style WMD attack would probably be enough to trigger what Franks is talking about.

The craziest part of this whole damn thing is, that reaction is PRECISELY what the terrorists are after. The WANT martial law in America. That was the GOAL of 9/11, and they damn near got it then.

Buy shotguns. There is no registration involved with a shotgun.

Are you saying that you agree with our government 100% and would be behind them 100% despite all that has happened and has been suppressed in the past 2 or 3 years?

Thats what makes me curious. Martial law could instigate WWIII if you happen to care about World history and yet you care more about putting words in Franks mouth? No words have been put in his mouth. How many violations have already been inflicted on our Constitution and Bill of Rights? Or does that really have significance to you?

So we should just sit back and enjoy it and think after all this Administration has done, gee, we should BELIEVE THEM?

Franks is saying that martial law would be DEMANDED by the populace in such a situation.

when in fact they want anything but. Cmon!!

So I guess you are pro-instigating MORE fear and doubt in Americans over potential lies?

BTW, we STILL have not gotten one iota of an answer over 9/11 in case you havent noticed!

Think back to 9/11 and the hysteria.

from ocurring if in fact an attack does happen.

If honest information is published that will show events that could probably unfold and create some objective thinking and doubt on what is being spewed by the media then people wont be so quick to look for simplistic answers like happened after 9-11! Of course this is exactly what mainstream media does not want.

It's over the moment a WMD terrorist attack occurs. There is no more United States of America. The whole thing is done.

You would serve yourself better if you prepared for that possibility instead.

a genuine catastrophic attack happened, then no legal instruments already in place would suffice.

Think just a moment on what a scared populace did after Pearl Harbor. Japanese internment, and the level of war we waged on Japan. Now what do you think we would do if we were hit by terrorists. Of course the first suspect would be Islamic radicals.

But the first desire of about 95% of the populace would be for ORDER and PROTECTION.

I would 1st demand that bushco be removed from office and impeached and tried for treason for failing to defend our country ON THEIR WATCH!

That is what I and millions of others would do.

DO NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, ASSUME YOU CAN TELL ME WHAT I WOULD DO! If what you described is YOUR cowardly decision, that's YOUR problem. I, for one, would demand answers as to why, again, bushco LET IT HAPPEN!

currently define WMD as: nuclear, biological or chemical.

If a bio-terror event jumped off and the population of a mid sized city bought the farm, I'd bet THAT would pass muster.

and who would decide ?

it brings up the concept of a Hiroshima sized disaster. Now, what do you think would be the response if terrorist nuked one of our cities?

with Bruce Willis, where NYC goes under martial law ? "Siege", something like that... A state or a city can go under martial law, without having the entire nation... Presumably around the affected location... -CV

how afraid would the rest of the populace be? Would you, as a liberal president, be able to be certain that the terrorists had only one? Would you want to search for other bombs?

You have managed to capture some of the terrorist group. Real world answer please - What kind of interrogation would you submit them to?

The police have identified your brother as being a close confident of one of the A-rab suspects. The A-rab has even admitted under "close" questioning that your brother wrote him a check a few weeks back. In fact your brother even told you this a couple days after, when he mentioned that he was helping out his neighbor who was having trouble paying the rent. Oh, and your brother is a known political activist who has been a visible BFEE protester. Guess who is in a cold dark room for "questioning". And you may be going in soon.

of the country as a whole. I am not saying that such actions would be right, but if the country were to lose a city, the rage of the population would be a tide that sweep all before it.

Are you really unable, or unwilling, to think of what would happen if terrorists took out an entire city? That's the level that Franks was talking about. Not just another bomb going off somewhere.

Or do you think that it is impossible for terrorist to take out a whole city? OK, right now, today them can't, but what if they do get their hands on some nukes?

on the "possibility" that a nuke may go off in one of our cities, as I agree with you that this is currently not even a remote possibility. But bush seems to be doing his darndest to rile up as many tera-ists as he can, thereby increasing the possibility of it eventually. It's my job to work to redirect my government to take intelligent and responsible actions so as to safeguard our country as well as our planet.

And I still don't read Franks as "talking about" nukes or of losing "an entire city". 'Cause he doesn't.

Because of the years I spent in service I know ways that I could bring the country to it knees for weeks. The entire economy would have to start up again. Fatalities would be in the hundreds of thousands. All it would take would be a lot of C-4, some other common stuff that I won't mention, 20 guys that spoke passable English, and about a year's time.

It has been done before to other countries by a different method, but it has worked each time. Casualties were fewer because the subject countries didn't have the levels of technology and interdependence that we do now.

So truly massive devastation is possible. We are fortunate that terrorists think in terms of symbolic targets, instead of effectiveness.

that hair is silver.

Trying to talk calm reasonable sense to a crowd of people who don't wanna hear it would turn anyone's hair silver.

I've read the interview in full. I commend it to your attention.

Franks is certainly no peacenik, and he likes Bush, but he despises PC (read: Patriotic Correctness).

He thinks the West needs to pump up foreign aid and take other measures to ameliorate the oppressive conditions that give rise to the grievances that fuel teorrorism.

Shotguns are not registered and are untraceable.

Arm yourself. It's the only option left open to a free people.

direction on what to buy. I'm 5', 115, very tiny hands(no strength) and feet. Help us out here!!! Advise me!

I'm 5'8" and over 200#. I'm experienced with a variety of pistols, rifles, assault weapons, and shotguns.

My preference is a 12 gauge pump action with 00 shot. You don't have to be very accurate to take a man down. Shotguns are inexpensive, easily obtainable, and require no registration, so any alleged authority in the anarchy of martial law won't be able to track down the fact that you own arms. It would be the weapon of choice for any partisan fighter in most conditions for the flexibility and the ability to pick up the weapon and become lethal with very little practice. Some may prefer a 28 gauge or maybe even a .410 due to the lighter kick. Others may prefer the 10 gauge for the sheer power. If you're an accurate marksman, you may prefer deer slugs over shot, although most lay persons should go with shot because accuracy is not a huge requirement. Shotgun shells are also extremely easy to reload with a basic machine, primers, powder, wads, and shot.

For pistols, I'll take the 1918 Colt M1911 ACP any day. It has the power to put a man down instaneously if you have the ability to control the weapon. I'm an expert with this firearm and very comfortable with it. Most people unfamiliar with military arms would probably prefer a 7mm or maybe a 9mm automatic pistol instead.

For rifles, a 30-06 with a hunting scope will do just about anybody for long range firing. Many may prefer the 30-30. I prefer bolt action for a weapon used in long range firing.

As far as assault weaponry goes, I'm old school. An M1 Garand rifle is my weapon of choice even though I qualified as a expert with the M-16. The M1 will take you through a mud slog in the dead of winter and still not jam on you. If an AK47 or similar arm is obtainable, get it. It's an incredibly reliable weapon and if you can get reloading equipment for the rounds, it will carry you through some real bad times. This is the weapon of choice for insurgents the world over.

Sorry, but I've always been an advocate of the second amendment and have been schooled in arms since I was a child.

clone in .223...works at close AND long range; MUCH greater ammo carrying capacity for you and the weapon, and that caliber ammo will be all over the place. Recoil is very manageable, and there won't be much maintenance required. See my longer post....

Vadem, it depends mainly upon where you live. If you live in a rural area, I'd suggest a .223 (5.56mm NATO) carbine in semi-automatic. With your stature and weight, its light recoil and easy loading would enable you to use it with minimal training. The .223 is an effective round out to about 250 meters and is used by our military and law enforcement. The round is small, so it is highly portable and it comes in a variety of round types; full metal jacket, hollow point, and armor piercing. The full metal jacket is used by the military to penetrate light body armor and thinly protected vehicles. Hollow point is used for soft targets; ie: stray coyotes or burglars. Armor piercing is the common NATO SS-109 green tip ammunition. It will puncture vehicles. I don't know what your available budget is, but I would try for an AR-15, preferably a Colt or a Bushmaster. The AR-15 is light, accurate, and easy to maintain. If your state or local regulations will not allow this, I would buy a Ruger Mini-14. The .223 is a common surplus round, so a bulk purchase of 1,000 cartridges is not that expensive. Magazines for the AR15 are not expensive either.
I also have some alternate options as well:

1) A Swedish M96 Mauser bolt action rifle in 6.5X55. Again, a light, effective caliber with minimal recoil and affordable to purchase in bulk.
2) A Marlin Model 60 .22 rifle. This one can be had from Kmart or Walmart for about $110. Buy several hundred rounds of .22 long rifle ammo made by CCI or Federal and you will be OK. The .22 is a light round, but it beats nothing.
3) A Romanian SAR-3 in .223. This one will run less than $400 and uses the Kalashnikov system. Did you ever wonder why the AK-47 is all over the world? It is the most reliable, user friendly weapon ever designed. 30 round magazines are about $20.

Before you buy anything, though, go to a gun shop and look. Have the dealer explain the features of any firearm to you. If you feel that the dealer is trying to pressure you, go somewhere else. A reputable dealer will find a reliable firearm suited to your needs within your budget.

is a long gun that fires a shell that contains many small bb like pellets...varying in size from a slug (one large bullet like thing) to #9 shot, which is a hundred or so little small BBs. It has a smooth bore, and would be very good for short range. 00 buckshot has a number of .30 pellets (I believe, it's been a while)and is considered the best self defense load. It close range, a shotgun will make a horrific wound...pretty much guaranteed to drop anything in it's tracks. Past 50 yards, though, shotguns lose effectiveness rapidly, depending on the shot size.

With your size, I'd recomment a 20 gauge...it's smaller than a 12ga, with less kick (recoil). Good brand names would be Mossberg, Remington, and Winchester. The Remington model 870 is probably the most widely distributed shotgun in the world. You want a pump action shotgun...it has a wooden or plastic piece under the barrel that must be pulled back after each shot to eject the spent shell and chamber a new one. It's a very reliable action.

My only concern would be the overall length...most sporting shotguns come with 26" or 28" barrels that might be a little long for you, and it might be hard to find the more defensive oriented shotguns in 20ga. It's hard to recommend a 12ga to someone of your size, with little or no experience in handling guns, so I'd stick with the 20ga even if I had to get a longer barrel. You CAN cut the barrel down, but not less than 16"...otherwise, the ATF will take a very dim view of it.

what do you mean by "registered"? If you buy a shotgun from a dealer legally, you will have to fill out the ATF forms as you would with for a pistol or rifle, although that is not really registration. Laws vary by state as to their own requirements...but most long guns don't require anything. Here in VA, for example, you don't have to register ANY firearm, although a permit is required for a concealed handgun.

Of course, there's always the private sale hint hint...cash and carry, Uncle Sammy's none the wiser.

A much better weapon for SHTF scenarios is of course the good old fashioned, semi auto military style EBR...either an AK or AR. If you don't know a whole lot about semi auto rifles, I'd suggest an AK...very reliable, and very low maintenance required. I usually don't even bother to clean mine each time I shoot 'em. The AR, on the other hand, will require cleaning to keep it running...the action is a little more complicated, and there are some little pieces that can break, like the gas rings, that can render the rifle a glorified paperweight.

The best of both worlds is the SAR 3...a Romanian AK clone that you can still get for around $300...AK reliability, and it shoots the .223 round. You'll be able to carry a buttload more .223 than you can 12 guage, and you can engage targets at a much longer distance. At close range, the .223 will have all the knock down power you need. Get yourself a couple 1000 round cases of cheap ass Russian ammo, and you're good to go. $500 should get you the rifle, a couple thousand rounds of ammo, and and extra 30 round mag or two. Armageddon, here you come lol.

Here's hoping and praying that it NEVER comes down to this.

You even have to fill oput that paperwork for black powder. There's no getting around that.

and I should point out that registration requirements can vary wildly even within the borders of some states.

Shotguns, however, are easily obtained without such paperwork. Best place to pick one up is a gun show.

As an aside, I've scoured the internet for one with no luck at all.

There is one part that I find especially disturbing, where he claims that a terrorist event will cause "our population to question our own Constitution". It really sounds like he is suggesting that the American public will actually be asking for marshal law to be implemented. He is basically saying that the loss of our freedoms will be the fault of the American people because of their fear after a catastrophic attack. It is a very subtle point, but he is already laying the ground work for the Administration to avoid blame if (when?) something like this were to happen.

That's exactly what he's saying.

And while predictions can't rightfully be described as "true" or "false" (since the facts at issue don't exist yet), I think he's got his pulse on the public imagination a lot better than you do.

Hell, after 9/11 did you not hear people--people you know, not just loony pundits like Ann Coulter--talk about wanting to nuke Afghanistan? Mecca? You live in a narrow and insular band of the population at or near the pacifist-left if you did not. I heard it. Heck, I had freshman tell me LAST WEEK that our job in Iraq was to "kill towelheads."

It's exactly at moments such as would follow a WMD terrorist attack that entire nations go crazy and do crazy things.

I can remember the hysteria very well. In the first week after 9/11 I heard the following:

A person who called for the government to close down all mosques

A person on a local talk radio show who said, "If you don't like the way President Bush is running the country, get the hell out!"

More than 1 person say that Arabs should be rounded up and put into concentration camps.

You sure dont seem to be showing any alternative!

Should I be saying Sig Heil to you now?

No worries, Im from German heritage.......

cause the current system aint cuttin the republican junk even though they send our soldiers to die for oil under lies, export our jobs, and give all our tax money to thier haliburton friends.

-LK

Are you unable to make that distinction? When a doctor predicts the death of a patient, does that mean she wants the patient to die? When a weatherman predicts a hurricane to strike shore, does that mean he wants it to happen.

No, I don't want martial law. But if we suffer a catastrophic attack, then our liberities are gone. The populace will demand a strong gov't that will DO SOMETHING NOW.

Shall those of us with rational approcaches and nuanced understandings of the issues just get those words "To predict something is NOT to desire it" tatooed on our forehead?

I bet you had to say the same thing a million times to the Bush-idolators at some point, too.

to hit shore and cause millions of dollars in damage, not to mention death, blood, gore, etc.

Ratings, dontcha know.

Reinforces my use of the term every nanosecond.

Franks was talking about a catastrophic attack, and they keep trying to talk about just another terrorist attack. They either can't see the difference, or don't want to. If we were to lose a city, the populace would DEMAND martial law. Survival trumps all other concerns.

As the towers fell, a very liberal family member was watching TV with me, and I commented that the political impact of that would move the country to the right. His responce was that we needed to kill everyone of the **)((&#%. And he is a strong anti-Bush liberal.

The mood of the country if we lost a city would be a horrible blood lust, and a desire for some serious ethenic cleansing of our own.

the masses will cry out for martial law. and THATS what has me freaked out. no police cheif will tell me how to live my life, and with a mandate from the people, it will be hard to get an organized opposition to it. i mean holy crap people, isnt the whole thing about 'freedom' is not giving it up just because you need a little protection.

ive always found this quote to remain true to life through all these recent times and giving up freedoms via the patriot act in the name of 'national security'

"Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Benjamin Franklin)

-LK

Yes it's fucking scary. That's why you want shotguns.

i might end up doing that if this talk keeps up, im not usuially one to buy into hysteria, but this fear has been growing in my mind for awhile without knowing franks said anything about it. no way in hell im going to be left defenseless... too bad is has come to this, though

and now:

Rage Against The Machine
Evil Empire (1996)
Bulls On Parade

This microphone explode, shattering
The molds
Ya eighter drop tha hits like de la o or get tha
Fuck off tha commode
Wit tha sure shot, sure ta make tha
Bodies drop
Drop an don't copy yo, don't call this
A co-opt
Terror rains drenchin', quenchin' tha thirst of
Tha power dons
That five sided fist-a-gon
Tha rotten sore on the face of mother earth gets
Bigger
Tha triggers cold empty ya purse
They rally round tha family
With pockets full of shells
Weapons not food, not homes, not shoes
Not need, just feed tha war canibal animal
I walk tha corner to tha rubble that used to be a
Library
Line up to tha mind cemetery
What we don't know keeps tha contracts alive an
Movin'
They don't gotta burn tha books they just remove 'em
While arms warehouses fill as quick as tha cells
Rally round tha family, pockets full of shells
Rally round tha family
With pockets full of shells
Bulls on parade

disturbingly relevant for a song written almost ten years ago

-LK

And, I hate to say this, but I regret the fact that I feel the need to be heavily armed in 2003.

But as another Rage song says, "Know Your Enemy"...

Why are you so pro-martial law that would initiate a police state?

ON THE CONTRARY, THAT is when the greatest abuse can occur, but perhaps that is what you want???

Dont pussyfoot, there is never an excuse for martial law and you know it.

But perhaps you are a fan of totalitarianism and genocide because that is DAMN SURE what happens in a police state.

If you dont believe, then take the opportunity to educate yourself and invest in some lessons in history my friend. Obviously you are not too informed on what takes place when an extremist government takes over.

i think he was just saying thats what would happen, weather anyone liked it or not. why would anyone condone martial law, seriously

-LK

We in fact are NOT at this point. We still have our voice and are growing in volume that is why this article is even coming into play. They are trying to intimidate those of us who speak out.

Perhaps this is what you want I dont know. Im an American, who happens to have been a Republican at one point and I dont believe in ANY f****in rogue government taking over our country no matter what. I am NOT a white supremist, a religious extremist, a fascist, or a blind fundamentalist follower. It seems obvious that you dont seem to mind the prospect that we may be taken over like the Nazis did in Germany. (BTW, if you will remember they didnt win and they HAD FRIENDS!!!!)

If not, why in the hell defend or acquiece to what these people are saying about a police state and martial law? You want to defend a police state? Go to China or somewhere will they will appreciate what you are saying. Im still for the Democracy I grew up believing in.

chill out my friend

1. Read what the posts say: no one here is defending martial law, no one here is defending dictatorships. the sad truth is that we arent in control of things.

we are only saying what is most likley to happen, yea, we still have a voice and it is growing in volume, but guess what, that voice was louder than the winning voice in 2000, by about 500,000 votes, and guess what, it was ignored then. its been ignored since, and until i see anything different, im going to assume they are going to ignore me/us next time. this doesnt mean im going to stop speaking my views, in contrast, we need to make our positions known more often.

2. check the language, check the phrases, sure your an american, so am i, no one tells me to leave my damn country. you said yourself you were once a republican, and its showing;

"You want to defend a police state? Go to China or somewhere will they will appreciate what you are saying. Im still for the Democracy I grew up believing in."

that is what you said, it sounds pretty damn familiar to 'dont like the way were doing things, get the hell out' crap i took every day leading up to the iraq thing.

im NOT defending police states, im NOT defending dictatorships, im putting out there one thing people arent likley to like; the truth that the people are not in control of the country anymore. if they wanted to they could lock us all up forever without any charges under the patriot act, and guess what, they dont let ya have a lawyer or a phone call on that one.

3. THINK about things before you post, do you think i like the reality that im talking about? hell no, its just what it is. and im not going to pretend that the USA is a happy place that is free of problems anymore. such thoughts are those of children who cannot grasp the problems of the real world.

peace out

-LK

to tell me to "chill" over something that is the last thing anyone should chill over.

I guess you think very little of that trite saying called Democracy....silly me -what was i THINKING? You guys are out tonight arent you?

Thank you for the instruction in instructing me on how to respond. Obviously it is you who is pricked by my reply.

Perhaps you should then take time to actually read what is posted. But of course you wont. You are too busy touted the greatness of Franks and defending your own narrow-minded ideology, however well-disguised in your ever transparent "intent"?

Obviously you did not understand my posts because you put words in my mouth probably because of your own freepish, fear based tendencies.

I feel sorry for individuals like yourself, because you miss out on the truth and the reality being told. But that apparently is not what you remotely seek or is within your value system? You much prefer attack and defend? So much for childishness****

:)

and i guess we will have to agree to dissagree here. if you would have read the whole thing you would have noticed my remarks of taking action against police state-like enforcements, but clearly you havent.

i am clearly choosing to recognise the possabilities that martial law may infact happen, im still not supporting it.

i did not put words in your mouth, if i missunderstood them, then you simply did not articulate them as well as you thought you did.

nowhere in ANY of my posts did i call franks 'great' or in anyway insinuate 'greatness' to him.

and now your calling me 'freepish' and 'narrow-minded' simply because i choose to consider that something bad may happen, if it does happen, then i can say ive thought about the situation and considered some possible courses of action, if it does not come about, then it does not. simple as that. tell me how that is narrow minded. also your resorting to name calling wont get you anywhere.

well, im glad you have some soul to feel sorry for people, but i dont need your pity.

-LK

we let them ram the Patriot Act right down our throats after 9/11...imagine a MAJOR event, a la the TV show 24, either nuke or bioligical. Say 100,000 to 500,000 or more dead/infected, sick. Stock market collapses, and everything goes to shit. Most people will do ANYTHING to return to normal at that point, and would very happily give up their freedom for security. Only "temporarily" though...as if, once gone, those freedoms will ever come back.

I predict once the next big thing happens, what we get after that will make the Patriot Act look tame...then it's the beginning of the end.

I do believe that the Bush administration (really any other for that matter) would take advantage of fear and anger and push through martial law, but I doubt the people would put up with it for too long.

Franks makes it sound as if American citizens will be in the streets burning the Constutition. I don't think so.

1) boots, a good pair of combat, hiking, or Gortex hunting boots depending on your location.
2) Either a PUR Hiker or (MUCH BETTER) a Katadyn Combi water filter.
3) 2 quart canteen with cover.
4) Either a good web belt or belt with load bearing suspenders.
5) A good, 6 inch long hunting knife, preferably a Marine K-Bar.
6) Victorinox Swiss Army Tinker or a Leatherman tool.
7) A poncho, military
8) A NATO standard gas mask with carrying case and extra filter
9) BDU's, cotton khakis, and other subdued color clothing in a confortable material.
10) A good boonie hat and any weather appropriate clothes.
11) STOCK UP ON CANNED GOODS! It only takes a few extra bucks per week to build a closet of pork-n-beans. Yep, they can suck, but it beats having to report to a government line for food rations.
12) The weapon issue has been addressed. At minimum, a reliable pistol and a cente fire, military caliber rifle. At this time, Russian bolt actions are less than $100 with a can of steel core ammo going for $50-75.

these things actuially HAVENT HAPPENED YET.

but always keep in mind, they are possabilities. we are talking weapons as if the decliration were to take place tomorrow, guys, its not gonna happen overnight(in all likleyhood, nothing is certian) were all a bit whipped into a frenzy at the moment. it is a very real scenario, very real indeed but lets keep reality about us here

good list btw

-LK

That's why it's easier to buy a bit of a list at a time, so the expense is spread out evenly.

any kind of word that will further their agenda.

Knight you have no agenda other than to promote fear and division. Because you have no other answers.

So ONE MORE TIME for the road, in case you have forgotten, intentionally or otherwise, we ARE STILL a Democracy and will CONTINUE to make this nation a better one, despite individuals like you who wish for us to give in and to become like you.

:)

then stop and think a second and realize that your meaningless replies are kicking it to the top again.

and yea, thats exactly what i was saying, it hasnt happened yet, so everyone cool your jets, in 15 minutes i saw like 10 threads pop up about buying weapons, im just sayin it hasnt happend yet so no need to get obsessed with these things like buying the right weapon, cause its not needed yet if it will ever be

-LK

then you have the opportunity to quit yourself.

I believe this is an important thread and one that individuals should know about, and to understand if in fact a terrorist attack did happen, they would have considered some options, especially considering the last three years from this Administration and what has resulted from it.

It is important we hold sacred our Democracy. I gather you may not live in America. I do live here, and care deeply about this nation, and will do whatever it takes to salvage what is good and what is right and that is the way it should be.

simply love it... and yea as ive said before, i live in america. and yea yea yea i care about it. this is why i dont advocate what BushCo is doing to 'de(mock)racy' thats what the whole freakin thread is about. the perversion of the american government system to the point that martial law would be declared

-LK

Democracy in America hangs by the threads now. If you don't agree with that you aren't paying attention. It is always better to error on the side of caution and preparedness than to be caught without.

the directions to your store... Oh, but before buying all this crap, shouldn't people check with their shrink ? Perhaps the anti-paranoia meds need to be increased... -CV

>>
1) boots, a good pair of combat, hiking, or Gortex hunting boots depending on your location.
2) Either a PUR Hiker or (MUCH BETTER) a Katadyn Combi water filter.
3) 2 quart canteen with cover.
4) Either a good web belt or belt with load bearing suspenders.
5) A good, 6 inch long hunting knife, preferably a Marine K-Bar.
6) Victorinox Swiss Army Tinker or a Leatherman tool.
7) A poncho, military
8) A NATO standard gas mask with carrying case and extra filter
9) BDU's, cotton khakis, and other subdued color clothing in a confortable material.
10) A good boonie hat and any weather appropriate clothes.
11) STOCK UP ON CANNED GOODS! It only takes a few extra bucks per week to build a closet of pork-n-beans. Yep, they can suck, but it beats having to report to a government line for food rations.
12) The weapon issue has been addressed. At minimum, a reliable pistol and a cente fire, military caliber rifle. At this time, Russian bolt actions are less than $100 with a can of steel core ammo going for $50-75.
>>

If being prepared for some sort of disaster is paranoia, count me in every time. Do you own a fire extinguisher? If so, are you paranoid that you will have a fire? What about auto insurance? Does that mean that you irrationally fear a car accident? Of course not, all of these scenarios are based on probability. Any of the stuff listed above would serve you well in either a natural or man-made disaster and the bulk of it can be found on either FEMA or the Red Cross websites, but I suppose that those organizations are also delusional as well since this country has never had a single natural disaster.:think:

going militia... Which is very different from a natural disaster...

It is being prepared for the worst possible occurrence.

I didn't stock up before Y2K because frankly, I knew there was absolutely no possibility of disaster from the bug.

I am stocking up now because I know the probability is quite high and now I own a home rather than rent an apartment in the city. Terrorists want this to happen to the U.S. and another event equal to or greater than 9/11 will send this nation over the edge.

I'll prepare. I already have camping food and water stored in my basement which is a simple precaution for a natural disaster. In fact, everything said here, including arming yourself, is a rational precaution for even a natural disaster. The weapons will help you fend off looters, and in today's age, you can't count on a National Guard unit to fend off those looters for you any longer!

that's for sure... Good luck, and don't forget the arsenic pill, in case you get captured by the terrorists.

If many hear about this... :tinfoilhat: Had bush* allowed a second terror attack in 2004, shortly before the election, he would impose martial law and allow the pukes to be in control for God knows how long... x(

Things are not looking good...

Why did God give the sonofabush* power? Does God hate us and the US and the world THAT MUCH?! Who needs a fairy story about a sinless man who builds a big boat with fantastic toiletries with enough food for 40 days and 40 nights...

What Franks was really talking about has been pretty well hashed out in the rest of the thread. He is talking about the populace DEMANDING martial law as the result of a catastrophic (Entire city killed with WMD) type of attack.

He is not talking about "just another terrorist attack". I don't feel like typing again all of the stuff that has been put up. It is all in the thread.

This is the same guy who let Bin Laden slip thru in Tora Bora. The same guy who had nothing but negatives to say about a 4 Star General by the name of Wes Clark, even though he barely knows him. The same guy who decided on retiring because he was so in over his head militarily.

nuff said!

this is more than spectulation. I'm thinking this weeks capitulation on the extreme right agenda was a show of fidelity to our regime in a desperate attempt to keep their cushy positions of power after whats left of our Constitution is suspended. Scary, just when you thought it couldn't get worse.

and use it. Doesn't matter where he pops it. When he does, all humanity will change. The Patriot Act will look like the Magna Carta.

Is there ANY country that would not go to at least some kind of martial law/state of emergency if a city or two got vaproized?

...