Clark's Attack On Dean's Skiing Record Show's Clark's Lack of Integrity

"I didn't have as much practice skiing as the governor did. He was out there skiing when I was recovering from my wounds in Vietnam," Clark said on WNTK radio.

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20031126_1422.html

Actually, I like Clark alot as a solid second choice. But, like every candidate, he has some supporters that would prefer to twist words around to further their own agenda. This was told jokingly by Clark, but I could have insisted that Clark was underhanded and all that noise.

PS - While I don't find Dean's draft dodging amazing and heroic, like some of his supporters, I honestly don't have a problem with it. I probably would have done the same. Although (from the safety of many years later) I have a feeling that I would have likely resisted the draft actively, rather than dodge it. But who knows.

<>

PPS - Would this freak anyone else out to have to talk with a giant image of yourself next to you? I have problems when I hear myself on an answering machine, let alone a gigantic version of my cabeza!

I'm confused.... is this a jab at Clark, his supporters, what?

Clark also took a slap at Dean when a radio interviewer jokingly asked if he'd be
interested in a ski competition between candidates.

"This was told jokingly by Clark, but I could have insisted that Clark was underhanded and all that noise."

When they "attack" him it's bad? Try again.

...blame the guy responsible for Dean being rejected by his draft board? That would be the miltary doctor that rejected Dean during Dean's pre-induction physical.

Just to set the record straight, I don't agree with the attacks on Clark either.

Clark didn't have to take the (obvious) bait. He might as well have said "I sacrificed my body in the jungles of Vietnam for my country while Party-Time Howie was nailing ski bunnies in the lodge."

Disclosure: I'm for Dean, but admire Gen. Clark very much, except when he makes comments like these.

I thought draft dodging implied that someone did something illegal to get out of serving.

It's not dodging if you go in for your physical and get exempted due to a pre-existing condition. Why should he have begged to go if the Army was willing to give him a legitimate pass?

if there was an army ski patrol in Vietnam, but since there wasn't.....

At least he was accurate, unlike Dean who said Clark was a Republican and said at the debate on Monday that Clark supported the war.

MzPip
:dem:

do you really need a link for tis?

that doesn't make you a republican. Clark didn't support the war any more than Dean did.

Dean supported Biden lugar(which was support for war on the grounds that congress vote for it again), while Clark supported a resolution that required NATO invade.

Since Clark's comments are part of the Congressional record they would be very easy to find. Basically Clark said...Saddam bad and will continue to be bad, but there is no rush. A war in Iraq will take away resources from Afghanistan and Osama. He took two days two say it, and the Dem critters repeated the mantra. But no, his basic was then, is now, go after them that are the most dangerous.

Several people who saw Clark during that summer, Matthews Gen. McCaferty etc. also said, that Clark was against the war.

but sorry anyway

Noted and appreciated...

Yes we do. Where is the evidence about Clark being a Republican?

No matter how many times Dean repeats it, the truth is that Clark was never a Republican; he was independent. In Arkansas you don't register with a party, and he voted for Clinton twice and Gore once. Is your point that if you ever once vote for a Republican in your whole life you can never be considered a Democrat regardless how many Democrats you vote for afterwards? Are you not allowed to ever become a Democrat if maybe you didn't declare yourself as one the first time you voted? Jeez, what a great way to got more votes...

But regardless, Dean was just flat-out wrong when he said Clark had once been a Republican. He wasn't. Dean has launched a lot of digs at Clark and other candidates, and I'm not sure why Clark shouldn't be allowed to toss a few back. In any event, what he said was pretty mild, and he did NOT say Dean was a draft-dodger -- so the original premise of this post is wrong as well.

doesn't that make you a Republican? I guess you can argue that you are a Reagan Democrat or something to that effect.

BTW, I never heard if Clark voted for Bush I or other votes, except for Nixon. I would forgive a Nixon vote, as that was so long ago, but not Reagan. No way.

that voted for reagan.

that hardly makes someone a republican 30+ years later

He also voted against Carter in 80, not 76, after a pretty much failed presidency.

...hard-right beliefs pretty well. When you read about Nixon's involvement in covert ops while VP under Ike, to include the Anti-Castro operations, and when you realize that his friends and associates were all right-wingers, you have to believe that his political beliefs were very similar.

What does that make you? This is silly, really silly.

then in 2001 said they were both truly great leaders at a republican fundraiser.

He then went on to work as a lobbyist for defense contracotrs.

He's a republican. And his attacks on a democrat for draft dodging prove it. He can change the letter by his name, but he can not chage the republican hawk that he truly is behind the liberal script.

How many times does this point have to be made? I suggest you read an article written well in advance of the war in Iraq by Wesley Clark appearing in the August 29, 2002 edition of the London Times. In that detailed article, Clark mentioned that Saddam was a threat, but not an immediate one. He warned against the Bush administration focusing on Iraq when it should have been focused on the war on terror and dismantling Al Qaeda. He stated in that long article:

"The United States cannot win single-handed, no matter how capable its military," "We
should forge international consensus on Iraq ... War must remain an option. It should be the last resort."

CLARK HAS NEVER WAIVERED FROM THAT POINT OF VIEW!!!!! In the article, he said the actual invasion would probably be quick but that the real problem would be the occupation. Again, he cautioned the world about going to war until all possibility for inspections and international concensus could be achieved. Again, Clark has been systematically consistent. These uninformed attacks about Clark's alleged flip flops, mostly coming from the far right news hacks, are ignorant of the many times he has stated this position.

Personally, as someone who considers themselves rather progressive, the situation for me regarding Saddam Hussein was not just a Bush-like black-and-white knee-jerk opinion. Saddam had the ability to become an eventual threat and he did kill and torture thousands of people. He was a dictator. Any truly progressive person should like to see him be gone and have a more democratic system in place. However, the way Bush went about it, with an illegitmate agenda involving cozy insider corporate crony deals, the appointment of additional cronies or whores to the Governing Council, and his blindness to the potential development of Iraq into a terrorist magnet where our troops could be needlessly slaughtered made that war completely illegal in my eyes, as well as the steps Bush is now taking to privatize Iraq and turn it into a Republican capitalist wonderland, without involving the decision of the Iraqi people. But when Wesley Clark said on the one hand that it was desirable for Saddam to go, but that unilateral war should not have been the first option, was he wrong?

 http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0919-01.htm

General Clark said that he would have advised members of Congress to support the authorization of war but that he thought it should have had a provision requiring President Bush to return to Congress before actually invading. Democrats sought that provision without success.

"At the time, I probably would have voted for it, but I think that's too simple a question," General Clark said.

A moment later, he said: "I don't know if I would have or not. I've said it both ways because when you get into this, what happens is you have to put yourself in a position — on balance, I probably would have voted for it."

Clark was asked that question while leaving a speech, while in a crowd shaking hands. He didn't intend it as a complete statement. In fact, your own quote suggests this ("I think it's too simple a question"). He later qualified that he would have voted for a resolution that put pressure on the international community, but that required a return to the U.S. Congress. Again, he was against Bush's version of the Iraq War, as he wanted inspections to continue and international concensus. If you would bother to read the many times before the war that he said this, including the article I cited in my post, you would know. As I stated, Clark was consistently against the Bush war, well in advance of the Bush war. Sound bites twisted and spun by the right wing media can't change the record.

when dean takes cheap shots which are either stretches or outright lies though, to them it's fine.

This is a ridiculous thread.

I swear to God, if I see one more post about how Dean dodged the draft, I'm going to lose it.

HE DID NOT DODGE THE DRAFT. If we keep this lie going and Dean is our nominee, it's going to bite us in the ass, hard.

Clark didn't say he did either. Unfair accusatons are standard in poitics, but let the Republicans be the ones making them.

you know, how Dean used his awesome influence at the Pentagon to have his brother's remains leap-frogged over all the other bodies waiting to come home and secured a resting place right next to JFK's eternal flame. (sarcasm/off)

edited for sarcasm

Holy Mother of Heaven.... It seemed curious that Dean's brother's remains would surface now.

Are people really saying that Dean would have "pulled strings"?

The idea of Rove purposely "pulling the strings" himself so he could then start some ghoulish rumor about Dean is too horrifying.

:wow:

Didn't Rove wiretap his own office and then call the police so he could blame his opposition?
Didn't Junior's camp send a video of him practising for the debate to Gore's Campaign so Gore'd look like he was cheating?

OMGOMGOMG

Nominating our 6th most electable candidate with all that is at stake in 2004 would be a mistake of epic proportions. Anything that reduces this possibility is a good thing.

won't be saying these very things, only a lot more aggressively? I don't believe they are getting any ideas from DU. They probably already have dozens of DDean was a draft dodger articles written up and ready to hit the presses the minute he wins the nom.

But they are wrong. He didn't dodge the draft. So why should we keep saying that he did when he didn't?

Right-wing talking points.

which will make great ads for Rove & Co. I laugh when I hear how Dean is learning how to control his anger. Guess what? The damage is already done. The film is in the can.

Dean, the budget cutter, represents real Democrats!

I have been referred to repeatedly by Dean supporters as " Republican Plant".


They really do hate Facts and in a very similar way to Bush will say and do anything for things to come out their way.:puke:

Do you think the child that is abused by the trusted priest shouldn't be angry? Do you think the founding Fathers were angry at their British overlords? Clark sounded angry and defiant the other night, yet he adopted the anger label for Dean. Anger has it's place and is the correct and justifiable reaction to injustice. If you are not angry and think everything is just hunky-dory and we should just go along to get along, then something is wrong.

Don't get angry at the latest Medicare bill, Senior Americans--Don't worry, be happy...and no acting up, stay in line and mind your p's and q's. Just what the Republicans expect of the Democrats.

Ask my husband how angry I am at Bush. But I REFUSE to let my anger be self-defeating.

First of all the guy was speaking to a huge audience, and you have to yell to be heard even with a mic.

Second of all, I'd call that impassioned (and inspiring!) - angry? Sheeeyit, my Grandma got angrier and she was a calm spirit.

You gotta do better than this, Funkenheimer.

Sounding exactly like one of those fundamentalist preachers, no less :evilgrin:

You fault Dean for strongly stating a weariness of evangelocracy?

Oh that mean man, that mean mean man!

I have asked for this evidence incessantly, only to be answered by silence.

Can you break the trend?

Say it aint so. Say your candidate is jus the thing America needs! :crazy:

and who lost her best friend to it, I see nothing heroic about Clarks decision to enlist, and I don't think I'm alone. The military happened to be his career choice. Good for him. That doesn't make people who made other choices cowards, or him a better man than a man who chose a different path. To call Dean a draft dodger says more about Clark than it does about Dean. So much for the high road.

Each person had their reasons. Clark joining the military could be the reason for a number of things.

My father joined to go to vietnam, not cause he wanted to fight for the government or anything but because if he didn't enlist then him being drafted (which was imminent) would have given him a worse situation. Enlisting gave him a choice of some sorts what to do.

I dont think Dean dodged and the fact he went skiing the next day means jack shit. Going skiing doesnt require a physical and need good physical specimens, th emilitary does.

This whole argument is bullshit from both sides.

I agree with everything you said, but Clark did not call Dean a draft dodger, period. That phrase is being thrown around in these messages, not by Clark or to the best of my knowledge by any of the other candidates. At least I hope so. I was planning to go to Canada, but drew a high number in the lottery. That's my story in a nutshell. I planned to do what I thought was right at the time, I assume the same of Dean and Clark. Clark didn't even attack Dean. He made a joke during an interview and perhaps scored points at Dean's expence. All he daid though was that Dean had more time to ski back then than Clark did. That's not an attack, and it's milder than some of the stuff Dean says about Clark to score points.

...Clark didn't "enlist". He had been appointed to West Point where he graduated #1 in his class. He was then awarded a Rhodes scholarship and shortly after graduating he received orders to Vietnam. You had two choices as a career military man when you received orders...you either accepted them and did whatever job you had to do, or you rejected them and faced a court-martial.

I also don't believe that Dean "dodged" the draft. He was rejected by the military doctor conducting his draft physical in 1971. Had it been earlier in the war with a higher number of people being drafted, he probably would not have been rejected by the doctor. In that case, he would have had three choices...get drafted and serve, join the National Guard as so many did back then, or head to Canada.

IMHO, a person that agrees to serve and then goes AWOL while people were still dying in Vietnam is FAR worse than Dean being rejected by his draft board doctor.

I was just lucky, I guess. My draft number in the 1969 lottery was 46. I was still in college, something the military recognized as a deferment, and I didn't have to go. But I knew plenty that served from my high school, and plenty that returned from Vietnam to attend my college. I also know a few people on the Wall.

They were not pleasant times.

When I joined the military after leaving college in 1976, I had the oportunity to talk with quite a few officers and enlisted that served in Vietnam...that just reinforced my opinion, and their opinions as well, that the war had been a seriously screwed-up affair. Most told me that if they had known what they had learned since Vietnam, they would have headed for the hills.

He's nothin' but a war hawk, obsessed with the military.

His attacks demonstrate his and his campaign's growing worries about Dean.

Wasn't Clark SUPPOSED to be the FRONTRUNNER? :shrug:

That almost sounds hilarious now!

I would bet Clark would have rather been skiing at that exact moment.

Not every quip is a jab at another opponent.

...blue

humanitarian and progressive ideas. Can you be nice?

"Wes is not one of these backslapping everybody-is-my-buddy types. He is a private person. I think some people were just intimidated by his intellectual power."-roomate Theodore Hill at West Point

Clark and Dean are statistically tied in more polls than not. Clark leads some; Dean leads some. The whole idea of a national frontrunner when nobody's broken even 30% yet, unless I've missed something, is ludicrous. There is no frontrunner.

Then I guess dean has a lot of integrity cause their sure isn't a lot of truth in the man.



retyred in fla
“good night paul, wherever you are”
So I read the book

Clark never confronted Dean with Dean's own words of getting outa the draft because of his bad back. Nor did he confront Dean with Dean's own words of going skiing for months on end after that said draft physical.

These are fact brought to this board by me any many others from debates, newspaper articles and so forth. Let me know what part of that you don't understand, I'll be sure to explain for you. Cheers

:toast:

<Clark also took a slap at Dean when a radio interviewer jokingly asked if he'd be interested in a ski competition between candidates.

"I didn't have as much practice skiing as the governor did. He was out there skiing when I was recovering from my wounds in Vietnam," Clark said on WNTK radio.>

...

Rather than criticize Kerry for his pathetic performance as a candidate, the Kerry jihadists prefer to go on endless rants against any candidate that stands between Kerry and the nomination (a list that seems to be growing every day).

Hoping the various campaigns will cannabalize each other and/or self destruct. Not that they lack faith in their guy. Oh no. heh heh

:toast:

Julie

I said Clark said it jokingly, but that it could have been twisted to sound nefarious.

Trying to read much more into it than what Clark said. And the righteous indignation of the Deanies???!!! Gimme a break! :eyes:

Dean cannot use Junior's AWOL because of his own lack of military service.

Dean cannot use Junior's heavy reliance on staff to create Foreign Policy because of his own lack of Credentials.

Dean comes to the fight with at least TWO very important arrows missing from his quiver.

I am not knocking Dean for using a legitimate means of getting out of VietNam.

I am highlighting the latter day consequences of his past decisions.

It's called Karma.

STILL implies that it was his choice, it was entirely under his control, etc., etc.

Actually, his "legitimate means" were considerably less objectionable than those of draft age who (1) purposely became fathers, (2) enrolled or stayed -- and stayed -- in college, (3) claiming hardship IF the sole son and the loss of that son would create hardship for the family.

Having an unfused vertebra is NOT a conscious decision.

I am highlighting the latter day consequences of his past decisions.

No, you're not. You're misrepresenting Dean's experience.

And I'll tell you what: there are still plenty of us old Baby Boomers around who lived through that era and DO NOT FIND the actual "draft dodgers" -- the ones who fled to Canada, for example -- in any way a problem. If Dean continues to get hammered on this truly bogus hype about an actual and real deferment which wasn't even something he purposely "arranged," I predict it'll backfire, big time.

Eloriel

P.S. My brother said you could also get out of being drafted by flunking the written test. "But it was real hard to do. Say the passing grade was 36% and they gave you 40% for spelling your name right." ROTFLMAO.

1. No military service.. And Dean has himself admitted he COULD have served.
2. No Foreign Policy Experience.

Clark could EASILY bring up AWOL and HAS Foreign Policy experience.

cryingshame_you really try to make sense. Thanks

I could give a rat's ass who went to Vietnam. I was best buds with those that managed to return...in fact they introduced me to some fine Thai, but I also lived with a CO during that same period. I don't care but the flag flying SUV owners who are now in the majority, care about security a whole hell of a lot.

Nevertheless, closing one's eyes to the attitudes in America today will not change the fact that Dean's lack of national security, military service takes him out of the game.

Does anyone seriously think that the GOP is not going to stress and hammer everyday on Dean.

Does anyone remember the ad they used with the boats and planes being swept off the table? The voice over went something like this...he'll take away your guns...he'll take away your army...

Clark also took a slap at Dean when a radio interviewer jokingly asked if he'd be
interested in a ski competition between candidates.

It is a completely false statement over which strong emotions are almost certain to fly. I know the subtext explains it is in jest, and I'm not accusing the poster of anything dishonorable, but this thread is not very helpful at the moment. It is more than misleading. It is spreading disinformation.

but I don't excuse these comments on Dean...I will just look past it though because the main goal is to unseat BushCo...plain and simple...

It does show a "Lack of Integrity". I couldn't believe I heard that on NPR tonight.

I doubt Kerry would make this kind of an attack, athough he does use his war record, as is his right.

But to attack someone for not participating in the Vietnam war, especially when they have a medical deferment is pretty low. Why doesn't Clark tell Bill Clinton that he is a punk for opposing the Vietnam war? :wtf:

Which is closer to what I meant. I don't think Dean broke the law, but he did exactly what Rush Limbaugh did - got a doctor's note to get him a 1-Y. That is hardly "resisting" the draft. Dean never protested the war, he just didn't want to go. Which I understand and sympathize with.

I think serving in the military gives you insight that you couldn't have otherwise, but I don't think it is a necessity. It is just a very useful thing to have experienced for someone who ultimately will have to choose whether or not to commit troops.

being that helpful in deciding whether or not to commit troops.

Clinton opposed the Vietnam war and seemed to do OK in foreign policy.

Bush was essentially AWOL and he has made a fiasco of wars everywhere, and it seems we're now universally hated.

Carter was a nuclear engineer in the Navy? Did that help him against Reagan, who was a B movie star?

Was FDR qualified to commit troops for WWII, though he was not not qualified to serve in the military? Did he have a deferment?

I would hope that the decision to commit troops would be made by someone with solid character and judgement, but combat experience is irrelevant.

unfortunately is something that a lot of folks here just don't get.

Your post seems to have gone right over the heads of many, DrF....

I thought I was pretty clear, but alot of people took this in very different directions.

I saw your irony, but I also saw a number of posters completely not get it and run off hopping mad. When I first opened the thread, I was afraid that might happen, even with your commetnts, and lo and behold it did. I guess some of that will always happen with humor. God forbid we ever stop using it as a result though, now that would be bleak.

Yes, having to stare at a gigantic image of myself would freak me out! B-):scared:

Right up there with being thrust on-stage to sing an aria on national TV, or taking the SAT only to realize you can't remember English. I had some CRAZY anxiety dreams in grad school. My favorite was where I was standing about an inch from a movie screen and giant words were passing up it - the meaning is VERY, VERY important, but all I can make out are individual letters! I can't think of a more perfect metaphor for grad school.

Then we don't have a single candidate...or politician for that matter..who has any integrity at all...

Then there's Bush et. al...guess it leaves them out, too.

Guess if we vote...we'll just have to pick someone with no integrity.

Sigh

This is such a ridiculous piece o' nothin'. It's politics. BFD.

The more interesting question is why would a thinking person concern him or herself ... let themselves be drawn into such a discussion. Are we really so desperate for contact with other humans that we'll stoop to this level. The level of discourse here is really appallingly low. For every gem that someone posts there are a hundred cowpies to dig through.

I'll have to think about this ... just for my own benefit.

As you were.

I really only intended this as a silly post, but it really got some dander up!

I know you meant no ill will.......:loveya:

of the Deanie-babies going and it worked. Look at the righteous indignation of the same Deanie-babies who CHEER whenever Coward takes cheap shots. Talk about a circle jerk.

Well that is a great isn't it? As I'm sure you will also have the same hohum attitude when myself and others post FACTS showing how "boys" like Dean with his priviledge life were able to skirt a tour of duty, while MEN like Clark and Kerry took shots and almost died. All mind you while Dean was further enjoying a said priviledge life while skiing!

I love FACTS!, DON'T YOU?

They do like the underhanded attack dog stuff, though I don't know if it is a message appropriate for their candidate.

"old Kerry hacks"

anybody put words into Clark's mouth.

Republicans attacked Clainton as a draft dodger, and now republicans are attacking Dean as a draft doger.

Republicans' actions tend to be the same, regardless of the lies they tell about their party affiliation.

Are you keeping tabs on the number of times you repeat these lies?

No, really... I'm curious.

"Waah! Clark's really a Republican, because he cracked a joke at Dean's expense!"

integrity? It's a true statement, isn't it?

... to his campaign in 2004 (maybe not in 2012), I think Clark should not have made the comment he made. It's a cheap shot, IMO.

But then Dean has been cheap-shotting Clark repeatedly on the so-called Swett comments. Maybe this "skiing" remark is Clark's way of putting Dean on notice.

Bush did, Clinton did overtly, Reagan dodged WWII, Nixon had a cushy job in WWII. It should also be noted that George McGovern was a veteran.

Come on folks, this at best was a light jab, not an attack.

Overall, Wesley Clark has taken the high road and has more than once called on the candidates to stop attacking each other. He is a class act, and I'm willing to overlook this one because in general (har har har) he has advocated and practiced a campaign that avoids personal attacks on his opponents.

And yes, I'm a Dean supporter, in case there was any question.

woops repeat

repeat

Come on guys have a sense of humor! Clark isn't the type of guy that attacks candidates the way kerry and gephardt do!