Well, here's the real story on the Samarra blood bath today.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/E56B8E35-2484-40C5-935E-B452A2C74769.htm

Innocents killed in Samarra bloodbath

Monday 01 December 2003, 3:06 Makka Time, 0:06 GMT

US forces have become increasingly violent in recent weeks
Related:
US troops kill 46 in foiled ambush
Black November for Iraq occupation forces

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US troops in the Iraqi town of Samarra have admitted to perpetrating a bloodbath, with one occupation spokesman confirming nearly four dozen people were killed.

<But local residents said US troops killed innocent bystanders when they opened fire on anything that moved around midday.

Workers at a nearby pharmaceutical plant said at least two colleagues were killed and many wounded as they walked out of the factory gates at the end of their shift, downed by a US tank shooting randomly in all directions.

At 13:45 (10:45 GMT), just as staff at the State Enterprise for the Manufacture of Drugs and medical Equipment finished their shift, a second tank arrived and opened up with machine guns, employees said.

One French journalist also reports seeing blood spattered on the ground and bullet holes in the sentry box to the left of the white factory gates.>

....according to US Forces these were the saddam loyalists out to git'em?!? :puke:

Do the pharmacutical factory employees wear black work uniforms that resemble Fedayeen uniforms? Another case of mistaken identity?

We are losing this much quicker than I thought we would.

<<US-led occupation forces and residents alike spoke of multiple attacks in the central Iraqi city that was once home to Izzat Ibrahim al-Duri, Saddam Hussein's deputy and the alleged paymaster of many attacks against occupation forces.>>

Thinking they may have been looking for this guy? They have his wife and daughter under arrest.

There was just something about mentioning how many IRAQIS were killed in that exchange (a first, no?) that didn't set quite right with me. Brought back 'body counts' a la Vietnam, as if the number of Iraqis killed would make it sound like we were winning.

Maybe we won this particular "battle" (or ambush), I dunno. What I do know is that things are getting worse and worse, and the more battles like this actually take place, the more proof we have that things are continuing to deteriorate.

IOW: it would be the ABSENCE of killing -- both because we don't need to kill (because the attacks are dminishing) and because we wise up to the fact that we're only making things worse by annihilating our 'enemy' and thus choose another route -- that will begin to measure success. We'll not get there by escalating their escalations, which will further escalate everything.

Eloriel

The numbering of the dead was strange.

The disconnect between the reports from Iraq and the ground reality must be huge.

:shrug:

God help us.

Starting to think the insurgents are the innocents that survive this
or hear about it and want revenge.

It's a vicious circle.

IraqNam is in fast forward.

Who will be the William Calley to come forward and tell the truth and testify at courts martial?

Bush would have murdered Vietnamese by the millions, and we would still be there!

....
Don't you think Nixon and his henchmen tried to keep bad news quiet?
It took years for My Lai to be made public, but it was....that and all the other sordid lies of the Nixon era.
It eventually collapsed.
True, Bush is surrounded by vicious thugs who can intimidate whole networks and millions of people....but he clearly is not nearly as smart, calculating and manipulative as Nixon was....it is a matter of time before Bush's house of cards begins to collapes....a scandal a day....and pretty soon, they'll start to stick.

...are not the "good guys" in Iraq? This is an immoral, illegal war. The perpetrators are war criminals, from the head of the Beast all the way down to the soldiers on the ground. How many civilians have to die before we admit that our armed forces are not defending us, but rather are acting as bushco enforcers?

Stop the madness. End the war. Bring the troops home. Prosecute the guilty. May George W. Bush rot in hell.

bring them home now

NOW

our young brave men and women in the military will not look so heroic. Why must children always be sent to murder, or be murdered? Just do as your fearless leader did, go AWOL.

Your disrespect for our soldiers is uniform should sicken and disgust every good, upstanding American. That you lack any respect for the troops shows how little you respect America. The troops aren't the ones giving orders. And they didn't know they would be sent to Iraq. Unless you are willing to go to the brig on their behalf you should not dare to attack them.

I didn't support the idea of going to war, but I will focus on Bush--and not on the good, upstanding patriotic troops who have done more for this country than you ever will.

You know as well as I that like all organizations the American Military has many, many outstanding and brave individuals serving their country.

Conversely like all organizations they have some psychopathic
mother fuckers serving only themselves and leaving destruction and misery where ever they go.

Respect is earned not given. My father, Grandfather and Great Grandfather all career military men taught me well.

I'll get down off my horse now.

What I find sickening is that there are some posters here who hate the entire military, who generalize all soldiers as being "baby killers". Those are the ones that I take exception to.

"The troops aren't the ones giving orders." But they are the ones following orders, just as the Nazi soldiers convicted at Nuremburg claimed to have been doing. If those orders are unjust and illegal under international law and they still carry them out, they are responsible for their illegal actions. You're telling me that out of 130,000 troops over there, all of them are good, upstanding patriots, even though they've been indoctrinated to kill anything that moves if neccessary? Right.

I have a good friend from high school over there now, and another college buddy of mine is shipping out for Iraq in less than 3 months. If either of them participated in something like this, even they would get no sympathy from me.

every good, upstanding Patriotic American. Would you go to Ft. Leavenworth, KS on their behalf? If you think they shouldn't go then offer to to go to the brig for them when they get courtmarshalled? But I seriously doubt that you'd be willing to do that.

Your friends should drop you, as it is clear how little you value them and how little you value being an American.

And I agree with everything he says. It's pretty ironic, in WWII we used to shoot the nazis, and now...


Maybe his friends will drop him if he unjustly accuses them of mugging and robbery.

You should really be ashamed of yourself. It's obvious how little respect you have for the military.

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And you are going overboard there. Then again, given your anti-troop atittude, why doesn't it surprise me? That you attack the troop shows to me how little you respsect this country.

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Says who?

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I asked you to back it up. In response, you spat out a bland grade school vulgarity. I'm not sure that you've really quite earned that doctorate. I am sure that you have no respect for your fellow DUers or for the DU rules that you agreed to follow when you joined DU. Your latest retort and the fact that you have sunk to comparing long time DUers to Nazis tells me all that I need to know about the weight that should be given to your views in the future.

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as this time you did capitilize Patriotic.Why is that Carlos?

you saying his freinds should drop him after you posted about your freind dropping you recently is very amusing.

American soldiers can be and are often quite barbaric. I know for a fact of what I speak. I have seen with my own eyes things done by GIs that would curdle your underwear. They weren't acting under orders either. They were operating out of bloodlust. I don't say bad things about the US military but sometimes they just aren't the saints you make them out to be. I have no way of knowing what is going on in Iraq but I do know a lot of what has gone on in the past during combat. We need to get our young men and women home where there is no temptation to misbehave in a barbaric fashion.

All too many DUers are just hostile and anti-military at heart. Of course not every soldier is upstanding. I didn't say that.

But too many DUers act as if ALL soldiers are "baby killers" and that's wrong.

I suggest a retooling of your priorities. And your morals.

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But killing innocent bystanders in a firefight is just WRONG by ANYONE'S standards!

Instead of standing on the sidelines playing cheerleader. You are still young enough. You want others to put their lives on the line for YOU, why don't YOU do the same for them. THAT is the highest form of patriotism, in my mind. This ain't no damn football game, son.

You're absolutely right! He doesn't have a job right now, wants to move out of his brother's house and needs direction in his life. I think this would be the PERFECT solution for his problems.

After all, what better way to show your support of the troops than to volunteer to fight alongside them. If you truly love America, Carlos, you'll go enlist this week.

like you did before.

...don't have a clue as to what they're being directed to shoot. The folks on the ground are cold, hungry, frightened, and a long way from home. They've been placed in a situation over which they personally have no control

The higher you go in the command structure, the more knowledge you have of the so-called "big picture". Let's put the blame on the people that are really responsible, not the ordinary soldiers.

let's just be honest on that point.

is as equally disquieting.

Will you not admit that there are some in the military who are happy to be over there killing them brown-skinned people or do they simply not exist in your world?

I don't believe in generalizing the way some of the military/troop bahshers at DU do. That you would not support the troops reflects poorly upon you and makes me wonder how much you truly respect this country.

I am sure that there are some who fit your description, but most of them aren't. And you should be ashmaed for disrespecting and insulting those Americans in uniform.

They are doing more for America than you ever will.

Point out to me where I said I do NOT support the troops or hate the military and then to project it to that I don't respect this country. What I did point out is a crack in your blind devotion. I am NOT going to be ashamed and I didn't insult anyone — no matter how self-righteously you proclaim that.

I do not hate the troops, nor do I have an unwavering support for them. They are neither all good nor all bad. They are HUMAN. Some of them went into the military or reserves simply to get a college education and earn a few bucks and are probably quite disillusioned by the situation that they find themselves in. Perhaps others have become jaded and want revenge on the people who killed their fellow troops. Others could simply have a military mindset from the beginning. I'm sure you'll find all kinds over there.

The world is full of gray, Carlos. I think you're old enough to recognize that fact.

And you don't even KNOW me, so how do you know what I have or have not done for America. You don't have to take up arms to do something valuable for your country. I know what I have done and continue to do, my guess is that it's probably more than you.

But there are way too many people here who just hate the military and the people who do serve in it.

(how to reconcile DU Lounge Carlos with GDF Carlos?)

Where then is the line drawn? The modern German Bundeswehr hammers home to it's recruits that they have a "moral obligation" to disobey unlwaful orders. I heard about this from a gentleman doing some training here who was actually in the Bundeswehr.

When I was in Basic Training, we had a minute or so on the topic.

The simple truth, and I heard this from a Lt. Col. (we were discussing Ollie North--Treasonous Bastard), for 99% of Imperial Soldiers (this was of course back in the Days when the Armed Forces served the Old Republic, not the Imperial Family, and so I would guess things are much worse now), "If the Colonel gives you an order, you're going to obey it."

So where does the War Crimes line get drawn? When is "following orders" overstepping the line?

By the way...I'm a Veteran, and therefore have done more for America than you ever will, also, so perhaps my opinion isn't quite so greasy and disreputable as "the others".

But let's be honest. How many of those DUers who hate the troops would be willing to go to jail in their place for desertion?

Why haven't you enlisted Carlos?

Even so your argument falls flat because I am not out there calling the troops names like baby killer and Nazi. And I am not one of those people who has never served and calling the troops names.

That you support those who hate the military and don't respect the troops is telling.

that you capitilize Patriotic Soldiers I dont understand why you dont enlist regardless of what others do or dont do.You ARE one of those people that talk comes cheap to apparently.

I didn't support the idea of the war. And I am not calling them baby killers. I am not calling them Nazis, like some other direspectful posters here.

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Apparently he thinks he's going to run for office some day. He's trying to appeal to the swing voter, regardless of how he actually feels. He admitted as much on the issue of human rights violations at Gitmo. If we give them a fair trial that might lose democratic votes, he says.

is why you sympathize with the Gitmo people and put them ahead of good, upstanding Americans who lost their lives on 9.11

We have two wildly conflicting reports right now, each without much eyewitness information. It can be safely said that at least some of the 46 were civilians killed indescriminately, but it's hard to say how many. I personally doubt a resistance movement would put so many fighters into one place at one time.

More progress being made...

Last Updated: Sunday, 30 November, 2003, 23:14 GMT
Many dead in Iraqi city firefight

Five US soldiers and a civilian were wounded in the fighting which raged as militants made a series of attacks on convoys in the city on Sunday.

But witnesses said a US tank had fired indiscriminately during the fighting, killing at least two factory-workers.

<snip>

Frightened witnesses in Samarra told a correspondent for the French news agency AFP who managed to enter the city that US forces had repeatedly come under attack on Sunday.

However, they added that, in the aftermath of one attack at about 1255 (0955 GMT), an American tank had opened fire on workers leaving a factory at the end of their shift, killing two and wounding "many".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3251690.stm

I see no reason to trust them anymore then the media whores here in the US.

Sorry.

BTW, if you want the troops to stay in Iraq, why don't you join them?

Support the troops, bring them home NOW!

1- I was not aware of a BBC report. I did not say this story made anyone a "puke". I said clearly that I felt this particular news source was bias.

2- I didn't say I wanted the troops in Iraq. I've said over and over again that the longer this goes on the uglier it will get.

Now please in the future avoid putting words in my mouth. Think you can do that?

kthx

the Admin's story is accurate. I don't trust any media source that leans too far left or right.

Al Jazeera is as compromised as Faux or CNN, in it's own way.

Equally untrustworthy, IMHO, for the same reasons.

And it should be noted that the Free Presses of Canada and Britain are merely laying out competing sides of the story.

I disbelieve both sides here.

any evidence of systemic bias like we have on fox or r u just goin with your gut :shrug:

peace

According to this report we even managed to shot up a kindergarten. We may never know what really happened in Samarra, but it seems that the US reports are less than honest too.


U.S. military, Samarra residents differ on attack toll

Samarra, Iraq — The U.S. military said Monday that 54 Iraqis were killed in the northern city of Samarra as U.S. forces used tanks and cannons to fight their way out of simultaneous ambushes while delivering new Iraqi currency to banks.

Residents, however, said Monday that the casualty figure was much lower and that the dead were mostly civilians.

<snip>

Many residents said the Americans opened fire at random when they came under attack, and targeted civilian installations. Six destroyed vehicles sat in front of the hospital, where witnesses said U.S. tanks shelled people dropping off the injured. A kindergarten was damaged, apparently by tank shells. No children were hurt.

“Luckily, we evacuated the children five minutes before we came under attack,” said Ibrahim Jassim, a 40-year-old guard at the kindergarten. “Why did they attack randomly? Why did they shoot a kindergarten with tank shells?”

For one thing, i haven't found them to lie about anything posted on their site.

they don't really know who the hell we killed or how many.

American kids. Think about it, folks. See how easy it is. Frighteningly easy. Hope none of us ever have to stare down the barrel of one of those rifles.

Peace on Earth, goodwill toward men...

But I'll be damned if I let al Jazeera tell me that.

They are the Arab world's Fox News Channel.

I remember my dad opening the paper and reading about the My Lai massacre. I was 12 at the time. Dad was a conservative democrat, a very patriotic type that enlisted to fight in Korea. What came from him upon reading about the massacre was something I never expected.

"That son of a bitch. Somebody needs to put this Lt. Calley up against a wall and just execute his ass!"

Really floored me. I thought dad was all gung ho about war. I learned something that day, and something jiacinto should take into account. Supporting a military does not equate with a license to mass murder. All the "good upstanding soldiers" one might salute without thinking harbor in them the seeds of frail humanity, who, for any reason, might break and find themselves firing blindly and fearfully into a crowd of shoppers.

That's the most disgusting part of this war to me; taking well meaning people and putting them in the middle of a crime, expecting them to act like saints.

to pull an ambush with the hope that lots of civilians get killed and wounded. From their POV it's good PR.

Al Jazeera?

What does Carrot Top think of the situation? I need to know.

to news articles, not opinion pieces in al Jazeera that are not true?

I don't think they are any better or worse than some of the mainstream American press.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/E56B8E35-2484-40C5-935E-B452A2C74769.htm

Anonymous witnesses. I believe, brother! I BELIEVE!!

"A hospital in the town said it received the bodies of eight civilians, including a woman and a child. Also, more than 60 people wounded by gunfire and shrapnel from US rounds are being treated at the hospital."

Before Bu$hCo made the Red Cross stop tracking Iraq casualties, they based all of their data on what the hospitals reported. Staff would go into the hospitals on a daily basis and take counts. My point is that the hospitals are probably the most accurate source of casualty information.

Now is there anything else in that article that you think is untrue? Please provide back up? Thanks.

"A hospital in the town said it received the bodies..."

Even the hospital is anonymous if we do not know its name. I guess it is keeping its mouth shut for security reasons.

that the Globe and Mail referred to in their article:

Many residents said the Americans opened fire at random when they came under attack, and targeted civilian installations. Six destroyed vehicles sat in front of the hospital, where witnesses said U.S. tanks shelled people dropping off the injured. A kindergarten was damaged, apparently by tank shells. No children were hurt.

I would assume that in a town the size of Samarra (about 70,000) there would probably be just one hospital.

Try again.

Take this account, add it to the official administration account, divide by 2, and you'll probably have something closer to reality.

I don't believe our "official" accounts or Al Jazeera's accounts.

so essentially they are guessing.
DU thread in LBN:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=247461

that place is falling apart.

Sorry but they will be slanted..

I'm afraid we have no objective news source in the area at the moment

<snip>
Seven Spanish agents, two Japanese diplomats, one Colombian and two Korean contractors as well as two US soldiers were killed on Saturday and Sunday.
<snip>
(from the same story)


I'd trust them (in their news reporting) over most of what we are spoon fed by stateside news sources. They had the Lynch story pegged from day one.

al-jazeera is not a reliable source of info in my opinion and their account is hardly the "real story". Their stories may fit into what you want to see but that doesn't make them true. The fedayeen certainly ambushed the troops and it is likely that they killed the citizens. They were the people who cut peoples heads off in the streets and terrorised Iraqis for years. I wouldn't put killing their own citizens above them for one second.