I despise him more than ever.

http://www.politics1.com
HE'S BAAAACK! - A POLITICS1 EXCLUSIVE - If anyone has doubts about Ralph Nader's plans for 2004, his new website should erase those doubts. Yup, it appears Nader will make a fourth run for President in 2004. The site -- which was registered October 24 by the folks at VoteNader.org (his official 2000 campaign site) -- went online this week in a very nascent form

http://www.naderexplore04.org/

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however I think he is a crusader who feels 'religiously' compelled to create the perfect world. I do not believe that he sees the REAL world (facism-in-waiting).

Now it's all about Ralphie. Bastard can rot in hell.

Dear Nader;

UP YERZ!

Haven't your fun and games caused enough innocent deaths? Jerk!

Maybe Clark will bring the adults back to Washington.

at least he speaks up and takes on the establishment.

Get the fuck out of here.

those who don't bring anything to the table.

Look at the Turkey that Ralph brought to the table, it's a Bush Turkey. lol.. Nader is a traitor, and all the morons that voted for him are nothing but lemmings.

will again, if my party runs Bush lite. This is a three party race: GOP, Dem, and Green. Perhaps there is a conservative that will run too. Who best to run this race for the Dems? Who best to GOTV in Ohio? That is the question.
If we change leaders of the country without changing the direction of the country, we have lost.

You would call this what? A victory.

There is no third choice. There are two and one will win and one will not.

but your voice of reason is lost in this childish barrage of hatred. None of these sophomoric Nader bashers knows much about the man, damn few of them, if any, read his articles or bother to engage their brains and think seriously about what he says.

These are the ones responsibile for the decline of the democratic party, letting themselves be led by the nose by the neoconservative democrats in the party and on this board, led around by emotional appeal because they find logic, thought and intellectual study too darn hard.

:thumbsup:

I certainly was not expecting the text when I clicked the subject line. hahahaha!

n/t

oh well.

n/c

- I don't understand this hatred of citizens who practice Democracy by running for president. Isn't that what Democracy is all about?

- Reserve your hate for those who destroyed Democracy in 2000. Hint: it wasn't Nader.

Nothing to start my evening off like a little black and white logic, oi.

Q, you're probably gonna get flamed for being right.

-C

Nader knew that in the real world, his candidacy would split the progressive vote. Did that stop Ralph from running? Nope. He really knew that his actions would put Bush in the White House. That's how it really is, like it or not. Refusing to acknowledge this is to ignore reality.

-16022 votes in Volusia county? Was that Naders Fault?

:hi:

"DELAND, Fla., Nov. 11 - Something very strange happened on election night to Deborah Tannenbaum, a Democratic Party official in Volusia County. At 10 p.m., she called the county elections department and learned that Al Gore was leading George W. Bush 83,000 votes to 62,000. But when she checked the county's Web site for an update half an hour later, she found a startling development: Gore's count had dropped by 16,000 votes, while an obscure Socialist candidate had picked up 10,000--all because of a single precinct with only 600 voters."
- Washington Post Sunday , November 12, 2000 ; Page A22

<snip>

"…. faulty 'memory cards' in the machines caused the 16,000-vote disappearance on election night. The glitch was soon fixed," he wrote.

But thanks to recent investigations into Black Box Voting by Washington State writer Bev Harris we now know this explanation is not correct. In fact it is not even in the ballpark.

According to recently discovered internal Diebold Election Systems memos, Global Election Systems' (which was later purchased by Diebold) own technical staff were also stumped by the events in Volusia County/

In Chapter 11 of her new book "Black Box Voting In the 21st Century" released early today in .PDF format at Blackboxvoting.com and here at Scoop Ms Harris observes.


"If you strip away the partisan rancor over the 2000 election, you are left with the undeniable fact that a presidential candidate conceded the election to his opponent based on a second card that mysteriously appears, subtracts 16,022 votes, then just as mysteriously disappears."

<snip>

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0310/S00211.htm

But what the hell. Why worry about an important issue like Black Box Voting when we can seethe, froth and blame Nader all at the same time. It requires so much less... thought.

Quite telling that nobody is answering this question. You are sorely needed! Hope your campaign is rocking as much as you do! :hi:

what is nader's fault is nader's fault. What is not doesn't change the fact that he ran an ugly and dishonest campaign against Al Gore. If he had simply kept his word and not campaigned in florida or NH, the world would be a better place right now.

He not only would have been in office right now, but all of the Bushies would have been out in the wilderness until hell froze over.

But hey, what's a little voter disenfrashisement between corporate whores, eh?

What more could Al Gore have done after the 2000 election to guarantee him being President today rather than the squatter we ended up with?

Specifically the fifteenth amendment, you know, the one that gives the us the right to vote, regardless of race. Back during the '00 debacle, after election day, but before the Supreme 5 handed down their perversity of justice, journalist Greg Palast handed Gore and his campaign the whole voter disenfranchisement story on a silver platter. This included the layout involving CheckPoint, Katherine Harris, and Jeb Bush. A sure fire story that would have guaranteed Gore a win, and banashed the Bushies to the political wilderness forever. And yet, for reasons unknown, Gore sat on the story, said nary a peep about it. Thus he also failed in his sworn duty to uphold and protect the Constitution.

We condemn that with which we disagree far too heavily I fear.Nader was spot on, Gore evaded the issues, spoke with intelligence but no eloquence , no passion and worst of all softpedaled on the empty lies of his opponent ,Bush of course not Ralph who was only there because the democrats were not!.

Said there was no difference between * and Gore and that he wouldn't campaign in any close states during 2000.

I wonder how much the Pubs are paying him.

After all, Nader did NOT program that "faulty memory card" in Volusia County, so he can do anything and it's OK.

If someone can say he didn't, another can say he did.
No one is going to win here. For my sake, being an
_spirg member for thirty-five years, I could break his
knee caps. That's MY opinion.

...who is blinded by hate and revenge. Golly...THAT sounds familiar.

:think:

I'll just take your word on that since it sounds like you've got a little further to go with Chomsky.

You got that right!

It was the USSC Treasonist 5 they are the ones that should be hated and impeached.

- ahhhhhhhhhhhh!

- terrible way to write

nm

(edited bc my keyboard SUCKS!)

- I'm sorry...but I simply can't understand this type of vengeful attitude. I'm not used to it coming from 'Democrats'...especially when the guy sitting in the WH seems to be skating away from responsibility.

- No wonder the Democratic party is so splintered and marginalized. They spend more time attacking those on the left than the real enemies.

I thought my polisci professor, when he was talking about the left eating their own, was out of touch with reality until the great Nader debate on DU really got going.

C'est la vie.

-C

I said hate mail, but I am rather mild. Hate mail to me is telling him that he's an egomaniacal jerk, and if he truly had the best intrest of humanity in his heart, he'd wise up and support whoever opposes Bush. That I believe 200%.

His campaign will be nothing other than an attempt to sabotage the fight against the real enemy, Dumbya Bush.

We have people in our party today who don't even know who or what the real enemy is because they cavorted with them for so long.

oh, is this going to be one of those, "vote for the *real* outsider" deals? Bush and his neocon puppeteers ARE the enemy, and I think the state of the country and our status in the world a clear indication of that. How quickly our status falls apart, on domestic and international fronts...

All of a sudden, a bunch of people who voted for Bush have a little personality tiff with him so we need to trust their sorry judgement and unite with them against Bush because they've suddenly seen some magic light?

And since these people don't stand for anything that can be acceptable to most Leftist, loyal Dems, the rallying cry is "Anyone But Bush" in the hopes that we won't notice the stench emanating from the acceptable Bush replacement they bring us? Finger-pointing at Bush is not going to distract some of us from the issues. If Ralph Nader speaks to the issues that concern certain voters whose fault is that? Nader's? The people who exercise their right to vote for him? Or is it maybe the fault of those who think that if they narrow the field down to 2 Republocrats they can corner the elections?

Bush and the neo-cons aren't the real enemy. The real enemy is the stupidity of those who lacked the proper judgement to see Bush for what he was 4 years ago because I sure as hell am not going to trust their judgement in this, the most critical election of my liftime.

To loosely quote Cassandra: Beware of Republicans bearing gifts; the Gates of Troy must remain shut.

have already been opened. Our only hope, is that our party does not accept the "gift".

Will it be the Mercedes behind Door Number 1

or

the horse behind Door Number 2

?

((sycophant applause... the audience screams "door number 2, door number 2" as the contestant goes for the jack-ass))

the bow, they are drooling and heavy breathing so loudly my eardrum is about to burst.

Btw, that ain't a jackass, (although they are pretending it is) its a horse!

:hi:

The battle for the soul of the Democratic Party has begun in earnest and the Right is not giving up.

Ah well.... Steal the soul and I dump the body apologizing to Nader because apparently he was right- it IS going to get worse before it can get better because certain people are determined to morph us into a Republican Party without Bush at the head as if a simple changing of the guard is going to fool anyone.

Peace

On edit: You call that a horse? Looks more like a mule in a horse's harness (budget cuts you know) to me but yes, they didn't skimp on the essentials- the soldiers are indeed inside poised to continue the rape and plunder!

some americans are increasingly aware that the real enemy is the system , the cronyism, the pork barrels that make our two party system a myth.Some understand that we will not benefit unless the american people awaken from their lethargy and vote!

Some of us were disturbed by that Rose Garden photo op, by the votes for the heinous medicare bill, the patriot act etc ad nauseum by our supposed friends in the democratic party. Some of us, naive fools that we are, actually expected the dmeocrats to be an opposition party, imagine our stupidity......

The enemy here is the lethargy of the electorate, the real problem is not deciding which centrist to vote for but how to end the corruption and the elitism. If the voters, who are awakening slowly from their slumbers, go back to sleep after the '04 election we will have won nothing regardless of which party sits in the WH.

Nader's campaign will help me publice the "Education Mafia" and one of its shadiest members - Ralph Nader. If other people are as sick as the STUPID arguments Democrats continue to use against Nader as I am, they might be interested in learning about some SOLID reasons for snubbing him.

Of course, it's hard for Democrats to talk about an issue that hangs around their neck like an anchor, too, but someone has to show some genuine interest in public education.

In the meantime, the Green Party of Seattle has landed on this city like a giant turd - but few King County Democrats are criticizing Seattle's #1 Green Party Whore, Brita Butler-Wall. Why is that? Oops, I forgot - she's a member of the Education Mafia, too.

Nevermind!

A most apt description of the Green party.

Right here, guys!

By the way, man, congrats on being out of the 700 club.

-C

:)

http://www.geobop.com/education/911/bush/nader/

There can not be a factual argument that Nader did not split the left. It is a non-starter.

I hope that those that feel betrayed by the democratic party continue to push their agenda, remain active, and more power to them. But I also hope they use that activism to effect change in the D party, and not throw votes away and allow the Bush regime to rule another 4 years.

I understand the argument about corporate payoffs affecting both parties and all that, and I am not saying it doesn't happen. But if a candidate really wants to effect change he/she has to be elected first.

These things take time.

back at work doing his damnedest to destroy democracy on earth

makes we want to go buy a Corvair

...it's destroyed by ignoring those who stop legal recounts and keep Blacks from voting.

nader should take his ego somewhere else. His presence helps the Bush GOPNAC Cabal.

He's a stooge of the neocons. His supporters are his stooges in turn.

The Supreme Court? Missing ballot boxes? Disenfranchised voters? Military votes getting counted after the fact? Poor campaigning? the DLC? Lieberman caving in? Chads? People who voted for Buchanan? People who didn't even vote?

you mean focus on the real reasons? That would mean thinking,and that's just asking too damn much!

So passe according to the New Dems.

Of course after spending 3 years angry, whining and blaming everyone but ourselves, of what importance are issues and principles?

Get with the program Comrade!
It's no longer about issues and principles.
The new battle cry is
"Anybody but Nader"
"Anybody but Lieberman"
"Anybody but Nader"
"Anybody but Kucinich"
"Anybody but Nader"
"Anybody but Bush"
"Anybody but Nader"

:hi:

name one isue the worst Democrat isn't better than the Bushes on.

One.

Nader's candidacy is a stealth attack on the Democratic candidate by the neocons. Split the vote. Siphon off a few percentage points.

Follow the money. You're being used.

The difference is you seem to be more willing to settle for fewer crumbs than I am. In the end both are serving the same masters.

Just because one's piss is less concentrated than the other's doesn't make it any healthier. NAFTA. GATT. WTO. Incessantly starving and bombing the Iraqis for 8 years straight. War in Yugoslavia. Do none of those things appal you? Well they appal the hell out of me. The fact that we are now selfishly upset because now it's affecting us is not my main concern. We're simply paying the price for decades of bipartisan building of the Military Industrial Complex.

Be Bush. Enable Bush. Not much difference in the long run except the Democrats toss out bigger crumbs to the people. If it takes Nader running to get people to think about this disastrous shift to the right as the Leftists desert the "New Democrats", then I'm all for it especially as the Democrats bend over backwards to marginalize and push out that guy in your avatar.

Now about that pal thing... have we been introduced?

it's not asking anything

what's your point?

;)On his web-site, he refers to those issues. One of the many reasons I respect Kucinich is for his fair, lucid evaluation of Nader and the Greens.

those 'Green' candidates who were financed by the Repukes.

Nader has forgotten where his home was.

I'm so old I remember when Nader first came on the scene. The Dems supported him, the Repukes slandered him.

got facts or just slurs?

Nader should stay out of it. He's not going to win, he's only stealing votes from the Dem's. I wonder if he's on Rove's payroll.

Nader doesn't steal votes from the Dems. The Dems LOSE votes by going so far to the right that people make a conscious decision not to vote for the Democrats and to vote for someone who stands for something as opposed to standing against things.

If Nader didn't exist, Democrats would have to invent him because nothing is EVER our fault! It's always someone else's fault!

Does he steal the votes at gun-point?

How arrogant of us to think anyone owes us their vote!

That doesn't sound definate, but it's perhaps just a first step.

Great. :eyes:

Asshole.

but I believe that the Green Party leadership recently indicated that Ralphie-boy ain't happenin' this time around. Ever here of Peter Camajo (spelling?) from Culeeforneeya?

on that website you supplied (naderexplore04.org) that Nader is running?

I'm not familiar with politics1.com, granted. But even they pretty much said that it wasn't a black and white yes, he's running, or no, he's not running.

And now, we have the Green vs. Dem Partisans debate going strong again. Great damn job.

-C

:puke:

I'm sure Bush is pleased.

If Dean falls dramatically in the polls due to the constant smearing by other Dems then I might vote for Nader next time. Something has got to change within the Democratic party. I'm extremely disappointed in the way they've remained silent and complacent over the past few years.

seriously...

Right here, folks.

-C

lol

straight party ticket

ABB

not Anyone But Bush

I'm a liberal-minded person, why should I vote for an extremely moderate Dem or for a group that continues to allow Republicans to remain in power? There is little or no difference between the Dems and Pubs these days---and its not because the Pubs have moved left, its because the Dems keep moving to the right.

moving the party left starts at the local, state and regional level. Introducing a strong spoiler element in an election would just reinforce the argument that bush won a mandate. If we fail it must be as close to an electoral and or popular tie as possible. I don't want 2004 going down as another 1972,1980 or 1988

think you owe the Democratic Party your vote.

There is no need to earn your vote if we can scare you into voting for the only alternative to Bush that Democrats Inc. plan on offering you.

The louder we scream about what a nasty little man Bush is, and the louder we scream ABB, the more you OWE us your vote. At least that's how the very people dragging the party to the right think it works :shrug:

Vote for us because we are not Bush :shrug:

The Democratic so-called leadership is manipulating us with fear just like the Republican party is.

Fuck, that's genius. Evil genius. I'm thinking DLC works overtime to keep us so focused on the horrible alternative - four more years - that we don't hold our own accountable for their actions.

Damn. Talk about a wedge play. We're getting attacked from both directions at once.

Don't you people see how the Dem party has been railroaded by the right into voting for a lot of this? With the controlled media, people who speak out are persecuted, so the Dems as a whole must pick their battles carefully or be voted out, redistricted or blackmailed. As bad as the prospect is, you have to please your constituency, no matter how uninformed they are. The alternative is a 2/3 majority in the House and Senate, where Dems can't stop anything.

Granted, I think many Dems truly need to grow a spine, but when the general public is so manipulated, we need to go more centrist - at least for now. Mass change doesn't happen overnight. It takes time. Get a Dem president in, change a few seats and you now have the majority and momentum to start changing things and not be so afraid of the conservative backlash.

Haven't we all had enough of the current situation? I'm sorry, but a party which would rather risk for more years of this shit so they can continue to get on their soapbox spouting about the "corporate-controlled ruling parties" deserves to reap what they sow (though at everyone else's expense too). The country is largely controlled by corporations, but I'd rather have that any day than government/military rule.

You don't change things by going against everyone. You unite against a common enemy, as we did with the Russians against the Axis powers in WWII. And yeah, I think we fucked over the Russians, but I'm sure they were still better off with us than under Hitler.

Lastly, if anyone thinks we were anywhere nearly as bad off with our economy, civil liberties, our standing in the world and how close were are to WWII while Clinton was in office, they're nothing but stupid fucks.

Sheesh!

Because that is what may happen if Nader runs- although I seriously doubt he will get as many votes as he did last time. Which hopefully will put his vanity to rest.

All third party candidates ever do is remove votes from whichever party they are closest to. Do give me any of that crap about Nader's voters being people who hadn't voted before. I don't buy it. It is sheer idiocy to believe that there is no difference in the parties. The Republcans are EVIL and the Democrats are not. Under Bush we have Ashcroft and the PNACers. With a Dem, any Dem, we get rid of those people and that is good enough for me.

I hope you like fascism because that is where we are heading if Bush is reelected.

The Republcans are EVIL and the Democrats are not.

Funny, I heard someone on C-SPAN say that Republicans were the party of God and the Democrats were the party of Satan.

ONE of you MUST be wrong :eyes:

Hey that would make a great Dem motto!!! Many of them dont seem to have principals so it should catch on!

:think:

- But I'll remind you that Bush* is in office right now because too many Americans abandoned principles.

- Is winning really more important that truth or 'principles'? Is this what the Democratic party has become? No wonder many believe there is little difference between the parties...as we begin to act so much like them.

- There's not much danger in many Democrats voting for Nader or going Green. But I have to wonder why I've never seen this type of anger about the 2000 election expressed towards Bush* and the extremists who helped install him in office. Rarely do we see a thread on DU about the Bushies stealing the last election.

Just get over it and accept Republican/Lite. It's the freshiest!

C'mon, you're either with us or against us. There's no room for dissent. It's Un-Amerikan.

ABB!!! STRAIGHT PARTY TICKET!!!

Back in my formative years, I thought each candidate should stand on his/her own, and I took pride in voting split tickets... ever since Clinton, I am PROUD to vote with ONE punch!

Or just drive a nail through your frontal lobes?

WAKE THE FUCK UP, YOU ARE BEING USED AND ABUSED BY THE CORPORATE WHORES!!

Jeez, walking in lockstep is nothing to be proud of, and by doing so you are simply giving the corporate whores at the DLC/DNC a blank check to move ever further to the right. You're proud of this? WAKE UP!

ABB, bringing corporate facism to you in a new more palatable sugar coated version!

...or words to that effect. You know what to do.

'nuff said.

NO .. This is bad... He should never run again.. ever..
the voters don't like him and he diverts votes away from the democratic candiate..

and saying Gore was like Bush was a stupid move too

so better switch to Kucinich unless you want another 4 years of Bush....and really...just exactly what is the difference between Bush and Dean/Kerry/Clark, et al?

Who cares though? Nader has always been a liar and a fraud, but now, unlike before, most of the planet is aware of it. There were people pointing out back in the 1970's that this strike-breaking, slave-wage paying, tuition embezzling crook, who famously claimed never to make more than $5,000/year somehow had a lavish life style with a Washington townhouse, a chauffered limosine, and yes, huge holdings in a Mutual Fund including Bechtel holdings.

Screw the liar! I hope the assistant national disgrace runs for President, and his buddies over at the Censored News Network follow him full time with a film crew in their tireless effort to reinstall Bush. Nader will be lucky to get up to 1% this time, not that would embarrass a man with so little shame.

Come on, man. I want to see the words "I, Ralph Nader, am running for the office of POTUS in 2004."

They haven't been supplied yet. You're having an aneurysm off nothing.

Hate to be the bearer of that news, but hey.

-C

the DLC was the Republican strategy

Same message over and over again...

A sure sign of freepish mentality.

after all, I support Nader, right? that makes me a FReeper, doesn't it?

NADER!

Yeah I know that was real mature

God help the Nader *@#& who tries to get me to sign a petition to put that little shit on the ballot!

Nader-Haters=Hillary-Haters is how it comes across.

Wasn't Bill Frist up on stage recently pimping a win at all costs attitude? One of those majority leader goons. He was up in front of his congressional body talking about how it didn't matter how you won, what mattered was that you won. (He was relating it, hilariously enough, to football.)

I see a lot of the same sentiments echoed here.

-C

Godzilla pollutes and he's radioactive. Nader = Godzilla-hater

low blow...how dare you bring the big G into this?!?!?! :)

are the same ones screaming the loudest in issues' threads that we mustn't move one millimeter to the Left... must remain standing in the middle of the road where we all know you get run over.

You really have to wonder why the only swing voters the Centrists care about are Right-wing swing voters.

I'm pretty sure I know :D

the Green/Dem wars have always been largely about the left/center split. It's not universally the case, but the exceptions (progressives who holler the loudest about RN) are rare.

I would love the party to move left. It can happen if left minded people work with in it. The democratic party will not move left as long as all the lefties are pursuing insane strategies that pretend ralph nader could ever be anything but a spoiler. I still have no use for nader.

Oh, wait, the WTO and GATT, both enthusiastically supported by the two mainstream parties, effectively nullify environmental laws such as the Clean Air Act.

What was that about lefties pursuing insane strategies?

:hi:

I recognize there are some and I bear people like you nothing but good will which is why you could holler about Nader 'til the cows come home and not a peep from me! For me, you, like Nader, are not the problem.

By the way, did you read post 102? One must wonder in how many places that took place.

We effectively got kicked to the curb by the corporate whores who now run the DLC/DNC. We lefties have worked within the party for years and decades to try to move it left, and since we didn't have the monetary clout(just the energy, manpower and votes) that these whores wanted, we were marganilized, laughed at, and practically kicked out of the party(though as is exhibited around here, we are constantly told that we "owe" the Democrats our vote)

Screw that! This "insane strategy" that you're complaining about is called getting our country and maybe our party back. If the Dems are going to keep going right in the foolish quest to get votes, well, we'll start pulling votes from the left and the nonvoting bloc. Thus the Dem party is faced with a choice. Either move back to their true leftist roots, or die the death of a thousand cuts, 'cause the Greens are going to do nothing but get stronger. The more these idiotic Dems keep drifting right, the more votes the Greens pick up.

People want true representation in their government. That's one of the reasons we fought a revolution for. If they don't get it, then one way or another they will make it happen on their own. That is what the Greens are all about. And they don't have to whore themselves out like the Dems to do it.

Please show me an instance where George McGovern and Walter Mondale fared well? Please show me over the last 40 years where the American public has turned to the far left?

You Greens are just 2.74% of the vote. You act like you got 15% of the vote.

Maybe if you all took out the weird nose piercing, dropped the Marxist rhetoric, dressed normal, and didn't show contempt to the 97.26% of the country who doesn't share your beliefs, you might get somewhere.

But seeing the maturity level of most Greens has convinced me that your party will never be more than a regional party in places like San Francsico.

Maybe if you all took out the weird nose piercing, dropped the Marxist rhetoric, dressed normal, and didn't show contempt to the 97.26% of the country who doesn't share your beliefs, you might get somewhere.

Prejudice, hatred, elitism, holier-than-thou....all coming from someone who thinks Dean is too far to the left. Unbelievable!

You, sir, are in no position to make utterances about the maturity of others, as you deliberately sterotype without compunction.

The experience of higher education is supposed to relieve us of those erroneous patterns of thinking, not reinforcement.

Shame on you! You have shown contempt for those who dare to have a different, and left, perspective, particularly with that last nasty posting. That form of discourse is a betrayal of learning.

But again answer the question:

where has there been support for the agenda that the Greens advocate for the last 40 years?

over the last 40 years when did the American public turn sharp left to that extent?

so he can learn elitism was what HE said, not what Iverson said

Fairness isn't elitist. How embarrassing that I should even have to tell you that.

And no, your red herring questions don't get a free pass. You're going to have to drop the program of insults before you get indulged that way.

Have a bipartisan day.

Please show it to me. Show me an election result over the last 40 years that supports your point that Americans are dying to embrace the Green Party agenda.

the best way to even the score is for ralph to run, get exposed as the smarmiester he is, and get less than one percent. The indistinguishable shot ain't gonna fly this time. People are wised up. And unless the ho's work even more blatantly than in 2k the chimp is toast.


Thank god for america, this'll be the last time the words "ralph nader" (as well as "green pary", if he runs as a green) will br spoken without being immediately followed by a guffaw.

and Nadertrader.com opens up again for business to satisfy lost consciences while trying desperately to salvage a plank of wood to use as a life raft while the rusting ship sinks rapidly into the icy cold water, devouring many persons in its suction-water-drain-spinny thing that I forget the technical term for.

:shrug:

Liked your description better tho, LOL!!!

It's not that, but it is close. It is sort of like that, but applies specifically to water. The funny thing is that I can remember NOT REMEMBERING this word in the past, but I can't remember the actual word.

Thanks for the compliment on my run-on sentence!

Who's going to vote for him? I spoke to a friend of mine who voted Green last time and I practically pleaded that he vote Dem next year. It really wasn't necessary, because he himself sees what a mess this nation has become and he said he would vote for any democrat other than Lieberman.

Part of his reason for his vote was to see how bad Bush could possibly make it. He partly also bought into the ridiculous Gore=Bush Nader mantra. Well he saw. I think him and most Greens (and Democrats for that matter) understand that while too many democrats in the house and senate may be willing to compromise for crappy legislation, presidential elections really aren't a great place to make a protest. I think most Greens have realized that these elections have very far reaching consequences. In the last election it was really about supreme court justice appointments and the usual cadre of issues (abortion, environment, taxes, etc). Most couldn't tell that this administrations' foreign policy would make America perhaps the most hated nation in the world today. While most could probably tell this administration would be greedy, they probably didn't have an idea to what extent their greed extended.

Many also either didn't really know about the Reagan years. Like myself they were too young to remember them...and unfortunately they didn't understand that it took many years during the Clinton admin. to clean up that mess, and they didn't really read into it.

The extent to the attack on our civil liberties was also not forseeen by many Greens. I don't think they knew to what length these people would go to, to remain in power.

Greens made a mistake. They probably won't admit it. That's fine. I could care less now. I would however like them to make up for it, by helping to remove * from office.

Those who will vote Green or Socialist or whatever else, probably have made up their mind by now and there's no way to really change their mind. They have to know Kucinich won't get the nomination by now as well. Dean looks like he has a good shot of winning the nomination...though it's no done deal, as Clark has a huge support base as well. Both have been willing to take blunt and direct shots at this administration. My hope though (and I expect this to be the case), is that Kucinich will wholeheartedly support the nominee and will be able to keep the excited group of people he's brought on board, through the election.

against us. I do believe it is his right to run but believe that anyone who falls for this twice knowing there will be NO MOMENTUM and no hope for beating Bush has to really ask themselves what their true principles are.

If I vote my conscience and that idealistic vote does NOT stand to win but only hurt me more...am I really voting my conscience or my pipe dreams?

But so is it my dear old Aunt Ethel's right to run, if he so chooses.

And she is no less likely to win the election than Nader.

In practical terms, all Saint Ralph can do is split the progressive vote and thus put King George I back into the White House, as his followers devoutly hope.

That's why I treat the few remaining Greens as nothing more than other opposition party members, just like the Busheviks, no matter what their good intentions might be, and recommend that others do the same.

I'll leave it at that.

http://www.cppax.org/swingstate/index.jsp?put=2000stats.html

Look at the numbers on this chart state by state. It is dividing the momentum that those on the left COULD be enjoying...and sadly, no one gets what they want in that picture unless they are a right winger.

The Naderites need to re-read their American history--so that they can remember how Progressive positions got into American politics and became mainstream.

HINT: It's not because people put all their faith in personality cults.

the problem is a Party that insists on pandering to the Right.

Address the issues of me the voter and you'll get my vote.

Address the issues of the most voters and you'll get the most votes.

If in this Bush-hating, war-hating, economically depressed time the Democratic Party cannot appeal to the most voters then we deserve to fall splat flat on our face.

Diluting the Republican platform just enough to please the corporations and paying lip-service to my issues is no longer enough for me. We've drifted so far right of center that "our" so-called representatives enabled Bush despite our loud objections (I know you remember how loud they were because you were yelling right along with me)- that's what shifting to the right to please the so-called center got us. And now all these people (not you I know) who shifted us to the right suddenly care enough to hate Nader? I've got news for them, Nader didn't vote for Bush's obscenities- their "New Dems" did and I'm not playing their game anymore.

Either my Party goes Left or I do.

Peace

But I also think that if one wants jobs then there will be SOME pandering to corporate interests. NOT ALL but some. There are areas where corporate and small business interests diverge.

I don't hate Nader, I just don't see the tac he has taken as helping anyone. In fact, poverty is rising in AMerica. It was NOT the case under Clinton and I doubt it would be the case under Gore.

I cannot stand the John Breaux's of the world any more than you can but I also have noted that on one day people are applauding a politician on DU and the next they are calling him/her every name in the book...Pelosi is a great example.

Frankly, I don't expect a complete left turn....I'll take PULL over time. I believe the best policy moves the slowest with large populations.

I know where you stand and you know, I hope, what high regard I have for your posts (and your thoughts!).

I think the only reason I differ with you is because my Democratic Mother was very political and from the age of 9 on I've observed (thanks to her insight) the Democratic Party pulling right, right, right.

That was 3 decades ago. If I have to wait 3 decades for us to get back to that point, I'll be dead and so definitely will my mom.

I appreciate your point even if our philosophies on how to get there differ but I know if you do the pulling and I do the pushing, we'll get there before we die. We better!

sensible regulations. One can actually regulate (as Clinton did with the executive order regarding corps that set up offshore tax shelters) how companies do business in the US and how they MUST do business abroad in order to receive favor at the Fed level. Companies will always receive some favor at the Fed level. It is in a sense necessary because other governments subsidize their industries. We did however have both the power as a world leader and the world's biggest consumer to set guidelines and did not.

Anyway, this is off topic except to say that Nader running willl only put us farther away. Even some of the Green leadership recognizes that whether or not this is true, this is the perception. Nader is betraying more than non Green liberals with this action.

If I vote my conscience and that idealistic vote does NOT stand to win but only hurt me more...am I really voting my conscience or my pipe dreams?

If you don't think the Democratic candidate can win without that 5% of the votes that the Greens want for funding or whatever, then maybe you don't have much confidence in your candidates?

The more ideas that are put out there, the more we have a chance to find solutions to our problems. (That's also why I don't want any of the Democratic candidates to drop out just yet... I want their voices heard!)

I want to see the Green Party become a viable option in this country, because other than Dennis Kucinich I don't see anyone running in the Democratic Party who is anything more than a politician. Maybe it won't happen in my lifetime, but I want to see a start. There will always be some compelling reason why this time is the wrong time. There really is no "right" time, y'know.

Why can't Democrats plan on beating Republicans by a landslide... so much of a landslide that there's plenty of room for the Greens to take their 5% or so and still leave plenty of voters voting Democratic?

Are we all making you-know-who into more than what he is? He is the turkey in that photograph, y'know. He is not a brave and inspired leader of the free world. Let's get real, here!

If you're dreaming pipe dreams, nothingshocks, for heaven's sake DREAM BIG!

If they don't want to lose again, they'll need to actually campaign to the left and scoop up the Nader vote.

and lose 20% in the middle. Yeah, lurch to the left, thats the ticket!

Think of Nader's coattails. All those Green Senators we would get...

Obviously Nader is the solution to all our woes. Oh yes, I can see it now. He is even better than Judge Roy Moore, because he will take away votes from DEMS rather than Republicans. I guess I should change my signature...

Can people be so stupid? Twice? Yes, because if history proves anything, it proves that people are stupid.

Oh, that's right, they're the ones who never show up and keep you standing at the door because they can't decide if they want to go to the prom with George or Al, Bob or Bill.

Two birds in the Bush are worth one in the hand?

Hmmm...

sure has pissed off a lot of Dems.

pissing off many times as many Dems.

So what do we do?

just dont bitch about the 3% afterwards like people are doing now.

Because I don't. I think centrists are responsible for lower voter turnout. They're certainly responsible for watering down the Democratic Party to the point of irrelevance.

Nader wasn't the only one saying there was no difference between Bush and Gore in 2000.

How can anyone think there wasn't/isn't a difference?

BUSH LIED! :think:

This is the man who has said several times in interivews that his intent is to "destroy the Democratic Party." I wonder why anyone here's really shocked at this news.

is that you took 96 posts to get to your complaint.

You're slacking in your position of Nader-Hater President and CEO :spank:

are the people who thought they had that insignificant 3% cowed into captivity and swore up and down a wall that center-of-the-road is the way to go.

Of course this shouldn't be a problem... We did put the 3 years to figure out a new strategy to good use didn't we?

Sigh... Guess not...

Oh well :shrug: as the new saying goes, two birds in the bush are worth one in the hand.

:(

This man is responsible for our current state of affairs. He is never going to amount to anything more than a spoiler.

Gore lost because of Nader.

Kasper

http://movetheshow.proboards25.com/

The disenfranchised voters? The purged voters? The Dems who voted for Bush? The chads? The people who didn't vote at all?

Seems to me you need a lot of steering wheels for of all them to drive any getaway car.

Nader owns Diebold, ESS and is full blood relation to Karl Rove. Dont you know ANYTHING?

when the CBC protested. Just abandoned them on the House floor like a bunch of wussies.

These Nader haters will eventually convince me to do what Nader himself didn't manage to do- vote third party just to get away from the head burying, denial, and total refusal to accept any responsability for the disastrous situation we're in.

One would think that accepting responsability for our mistakes would the first step to fixing this mess. :shrug:

In Florida, many issues played a role, but nationwide? No, that was Nader.

Kasper

WHat states did he effect?

I think many Nader voters are so fed up with Bush they'll vote for a bag of stale potatoes if that bag had a chance and had a D next to it.

"I despise him more than ever."

How constructive. Well, I guess that each of us must go with our strengths.

...but I digress.

- I guess the thread author now has a better idea of which subjects to choose if he wants a LOT of responses.

- Nader has become to Democrats what Clinton is/was to RWingers: a scapegoat for their own failures.

- Lashing out at someone because Democrats keep losing isn't exactly an intellectual approach to politics. I have a novel idea! How about turning your ire towards those who have done the real harm to the Democratic party? What about the DINOS that keep voting against our interests? What about the supreme Court, Jeb 'the crow' Bush* and 'I'll sell my soul for George' Harris?

- Third parties take a few votes away from Democrats while Bushie Republicans steal literally thousands upon thousands. Third parties get their votes legitimately...yet there is little said about the vote thieves.

- Choose your battles wisely, weedhopper.

in other people's arguments, what exactly is your strength?

My strength is not getting distracted by personal red herrings.

pot....kettle!

It's always about Ralph!!!!

The least Ralph could have done was to
speak out against all the stuff happening
because Bush Inc. is running the country
into the ground.

Maybe I'm just not reading what he's
writing....

try checking out his website, he's been speaking out consistantly.

some have problems with him cause he's fair enough to also speak out about what democrats have done to run the country into the ground.

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0318-08.htm

(excerpt follows)

This must be the first unilateral war in American history driven by a covey of chickenhawks in and around the Presidency and opposed by many ex-military, ex-diplomatic, ex-intelligence leaders who are speaking also for muffled dissenters in the U.S. military and intelligence agencies.

Now, in the remaining days before the outbreak of war, is the time for the Democratic Party's leaders to declare that while you of course support the troops and hope to minimize all dangers they face, that you oppose the President's dangerous, illegal and immoral war-invasion and occupation. The nation will surely rally around the troops once hostilities break out, but this war, its Presidential promoter, and especially its festering aftermath will feed public dismay and disillusionment. The citizenry will want to know not just who criticizes the inevitable problems after they emerge, but who had the foresight and courage to identify the risks in advance and counsel a more prudent path in our country's best interests.

http://www.sundayherald.com/34897

(excerpt follows)

In Nader's mind, Bush's wartime presidency and his quixotic war on terror are responsible for an era of eroded civil liberties and the reckless build-up of the munitions and defence industries. Government corruption and distortion of the truth, Nader feels, are taking place on the most serious level possible. 'The president has lied to the American people,' he exclaims. 'We were misled, or worse, about Saddam Hussein's possession of weapons of mass destruction, his ties to al-Qaeda, his threat to the rest of the world. This is an impeachable offence. Now the president is emphasising the 'liberation of the Iraqi people' because that's the only reason left. Everything else has been shown to have been phoney. More people are getting killed and injured every day while his propaganda enriches corporations and the president's friends, not to mention his re-election campaign. But as long as he beats the drum of war and struts as a wartime president, he's able to camouflage what is essentially a losing presidency and inoculate himself from impeachment.'

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0323-09.htm

(excerpt follows)

Nader Calls Bush 'Dictator'
by Kaye Ross

...

The war in Iraq developed instead, he said, from ``a messianic militaristic determination turned by a closed mind, facilitated by a cowering Congress and opposition Democrat Party and undeterred by a `probing' press.''

Bush is acting ``in effect as a selected dictator,'' Nader told the Mercury News in an interview Friday. The president has not listened to any of the many retired admirals, generals and foreign-policy experts who have warned against the war, Nader said. And the stated reasons for going to war ``have either been disproved or greatly distorted,'' he said.

he continue to hammer a wedge between those opposed to Bush's policies? Certainly he can look at the swing state map and recognize that liberals in general could have a lot more power were they not divided right now...certainly he can recognize that using the more left leaning group of a major party to form a coalition will lead to more power than undercutting the momentum and numbers of that party..

(I am not flaming..I am asking an honest question)

I am not inside his head, so I cannot answer for him, nor am I sure that I agree with all of your underlying assumptions.

I have just done my best to address a popular misconception: that Nader has not spoken out against Bush's illegal and unjust war. He has, and often, and at times when the Democratic establishment would not.

If you want to discuss coalition-building, then I humbly suggest that you start that thread distinctly, and I'll be there.

Nader knows he can't win.

He knows squatter is a dictator.

Yet he is possibly going to siphon votes from the only candidate that can defeat squatter -- the unnamed democrat.

Ulterior motives.

nt

nt

quoted in "An Unethical, Immoral and Illegal War" by Eric Wilkinson
Editor-in-Chief of Critical Voices

(excerpt follows)

The second reason why war on Iraq is a power move can be summarized with one word: oil. As Ralph Nader pointed out, Iraq contains 11% of the world’s oil fields and United States oil companies have been banned from Iraq for over a decade ( http://www.nader.org/interest/021403.html ). After the United States overthrows the Iraqi government, it plans to install a government and will essentially seize control of 11% of the world’s oil. Considering Bush and Cheney are both former oil executives, Condaleeza Rice is a former director of Chevron, and a total of 41 members of the administration have ties to the oil industry, it is no surprise that Bush decided we need to wage war on Iraq. Nader writes, “Plans for control of the oil fields are already being laid. The Wall Street Journal reported on January 16 that officials from the White House, State Department and Department of Defense have been meeting informally with executives from Halliburton, Slumberger, ExxonMobil, ChevronTexaco and ConocoPhillips to plan the post-war oil bonanza” (ibid).

Can I double my efforts to make up for missing it?

TRAITOR! TRAITOR! BOO! HISS! EVIL MAN! TRAITOR! HISS! HISS! <throws something> TRAITOR! VILE FIEND! HISS! HISS!

TRAITOR! TRAITOR! BOO! HISS! EVIL MAN! TRAITOR! HISS! HISS! <throws something> TRAITOR! VILE FIEND! HISS! HISS!

focusing energy on getting a Dem in the WH in '04.

Then work on getting said Dem to pass some major election reform so that we can get rid of these problems.

I had respected Nader in the past for his fight to protect American consumers, but I'm really disappointed by this decision. Yes, in a democracy his run should be encouraged and applauded. But I would really press our Green siblings to think long and hard before casting another vote for shrub, for that is honestly what you would be doing in voting for Nader. This is not Reagan/Mondale; the '04 election will be as close as 2000 (whoever the nominee may be). If you think shrub is bad now, just think how bad he would be during a second term :scared:

SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT

:eyes:

I just think as an unregistered Green he fucked
up the election last time.

There's a lesson in here somewhere.

... bad for us.

I am what most people a radical extreme "leftist". So far to the left that I fled the US in disgust after the 2000 selection. I live very simply and very environmentally friendly in another country now. I use almost no corporate products. In practice and belief, I am Greener than the Greens.

My entire life is a boycott and protest against the establishment.

I am a radical Kucinich supporter. I pray that he gets nominated, for a multitude of reasons.

But, as a student of History, I cannot in any way deny the clear and present danger and imminent threat that Squatter presents to the US and the entire world. Four more years of Squatter will end Democracy in the US forever, unless it is regained by violent resistance sometime in the future. I do not want to have to resort to violence to regain Democracy. The German people failed to unite against Hitler due to ideological squabbling in the face of the obvious danger that Hitler presented to the freedom and safety of the world. And I think we all know what happened as a result. The same thing, or far worse, will occur here if we allow Squatter to continue.

I fully recognize the insidious pull of the right wing on the Democratic Party. I despise the DLC, and am fully disgusted that many Democrats feel they must run a former republican voting retired military general that just recently became a Democrat, because they feel they must appease and appeal to the right with this candidate. I do not like the right wing views that are so often expressed here by people that do not even seem to understand that the views they are espousing are right wing views.

Yet, because of the extreme danger that Squatter presents to Democracy, freedom, the environment, and all human and other life on this planet, I feel I must support the Democratic nominee, whoever that may be. No other party will field a candidate that can defeat Squatter in the 2004 election. You know it, I know it, the world knows it, and Ralph Nader knows it.

Do I feel like I am possibly being blackmailed into having to vote for a Republican in Democrats clothing?

Absolutely. And I hate it, it frustrates and infuriates me to no end. It's why I am working my @ss off to get Kucinich nominated.

But the reality is, the people of our nation must vote Democrat in order to take Squatter out of power. If we do not do this, we are the blindest, stupidest people that the world has ever seen. We have Hitler and Germany as historical examples of what happens when a nation fails to unite against a fascist dictator.

Despite our ideological differences, and our consciences, we must not repeat the mistakes of the German people. History must not repeat itself. It is truly a matter of life or death.

Please, we may buy some time to fix the Democratic party and America after Squatter is gone. If he is reselected, the game is over, and we lose forever. We must unite and defeat him and the neocon fascists.

Mr. Nader, if you are reading this, I beg you to please reconsider your decision to run for President at this time in history. You are intelligent enough to understand that what I have written here is true. Any vote that is taken away from a Democratic Presidential candidate at this time is....literally and act of insanity -- repeating the same mistake, and expecting a different result.

Is this what we want to see, every day, for the rest of our lives?

Nader doesn't give a shit about this country. Nader cares about Nader, period. I hate that man as much as I hate the shrub, if not more. HE gave us the shrub! HE is responsible for everything that happened to this country after the 2000 election. Nader is a low life, self-centered, narcissistic SOB.

Nader, I ENCOURAGE you to fly DAILY on small aircraft! :grr:

...little Georgie is laughing his ass off at all these Dems yelling at Nader instead of him.

- Bush* has escaped responsibility his entire life because of the mentality displayed by this thread.

:thumbsup:

Nader is irrelevant. More so as a candidate than not.

see the irony?

The version of liberalism most Naderites want the Democratic Party will render it unelectable. Period. That's the brutal truth.

There will never be 50%+1 of Americans who will support the borderline socialist/marxist agenda of the Green party.

Greens are CAPITALISTS...say it with me CAPITALISTS

They're better Democrats than Democrats are.

...have the WH, Senate, House and most governorships...your definition of 'unelectable' seems to be questionable. These facts seem to point out that Democrats going to the Right isn't working.

Even if your assertions are 100% correct, it still doesn't follow that an unending rightward drift is a good idea.

What I am saying is that you can't browbeat and insult the other 97.26% of the population who doesn't share the same enthusiasm for the left wing agaenda into supporting it.

re: browbeating and insulting