Can George W. Bush have you or your children in the draft?

I feel a draft coming. The draft of young men (not women, for the fundies never much cared for the idea of women in the military) ages 18-25 (or higher) to fight in future wars of conquest in a second Bush Administration. Syria, Iran, North Korea and maybe even Cuba all appear to be in the on-deck circle if this Administration is given a second term. The draft will be restored, as we all know from recent threads about the SSS's efforts to restaff the draft boards. Of course, no draft can succeed if people resist efforts to conscript them and their children into George W. Bush's mercenary army. They can't put everybody in jail, and without the manpower they cannot extend their plans to conquer Syria, Iran and North Korea. Like little boys on the playground: if you take away their toys they can't play war anymore. When the draft notices start hitting the mailboxes will you give George W. Bush your body or that of your sons? Or will you resist?

If W gets four more years I'm done caring. This country will get what it deserves.

...I'm just going to open a vein.

Of course they are 3 and 1 and girls to boot so my threat is a little empty. :smoke:

My sons are 21 and 18. We've already discussed it and we will move to Canada. Not something we want to do but I won't give them my sons.

if it does, beware the mass exodus to Canada. :D

Think about the immense propaganda campaign that will lead up to the draft, there will probably even be some huge national disaster ala 9-11 before its reinstated and most kids will feel it their patriotic duty, at least for awhile.

I dont think we'll see massive resistance, or even much more than was seen in the darkest days of Vietnam.

occurred in protest of the military draft for the Civil War. City of New York, 1863.

There will be protests. There will be resistance. No one can know the level until the time arrives.

If that happens we will just have to say to these kids "I told you so", even as we fight this Administration's efforts to gut their veterans benefits.

will it be another LIHOP? :scared:

If the draft is reinstated, I'll watch with a perverse glee as thousands of stupid Americans who never gave a rat's ass about politics are inducted into the machine. When Republicans begin losing their sons and daughters in droves, I'll answer their anguished cries with taunts of "Four more years!"

I love saying that to people.

If people like him, if this is what they want, let them have it. I'm going to work my ass off to make sure he doesn't get a second term. Then, if he does, what the hell, I make enough money to be a Republican. I'll just sit back and laugh at the stupid idiots as their sons and daughters get chewed up and spit out.

nor my children (disabilities). But the rest of the population, watch out. If he has a second term, he won't have to worry whether to have a draft is popular or not

If he gets drafted and its a Repub whos in power Ill tell him to dodge. If a war was just yea maybe then, but not for this evil in power. I will not sacrifice my son for corporate power grabs. I would join a anti government movement before I would join this military .

One advantage to being Canadian.

But I would ship him to Canada if he were...

I am a dual US and UK national, and the UK is one of only about 20 countries that has a mutual treaty saying that citizens of either country cannot be drafted into the other's military. Other major allies like Germany and France, even, do not have this sort of treaty.

It seems totally unfair, but... I dunno.

Since when has W let a treaty stand in his way?

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

> ... dual US and UK national, and the UK is one of only about 20
> countries that has a mutual treaty saying that citizens of either
> country cannot be drafted into the other's military.

How long has that been the case please?
Are there any exceptional circumstances that can be invoked?

Just curious as my nephew & niece have dual nationality (US & UK) and,
as they will be in the target age range, I'm trying to find out if
they are as safe as you suggest.

Thanks,

Nihil

sounds pretty solid, but I have not seen the specific treaty or any specific details on it. I would like to, however. My impression is that you just have to be able to prove nationality (something like a birth certificate) and you get a 4-C classification. If this doesn't work for some reason and military service appears to be imminent, I think you could always renounce US citizenship and just be British. I would think something as drastic as that would be a last resort, however.

The selective service website says:

http://www.sss.gov/regisrantsbk.htm#(Class%204-C)

13. Alien or dual national (Class 4-C)

! Dual National Eligibility Requirements and the Documentation Required:

To qualify for Class 4-C as a dual national, a registrant must be a national of the United States and a national of one of the following countries:

Australia Guyana Pakistan

Austria India Papua New Guinea

Bahamas Indonesia Saint Lucia

Barbados Jamaica Seychelles

Belgium Kenya Sierra Leon

Botswana Kiribati Singapore

Brazil Lesotho Solomon Islands

Burma Malawi South Africa

Colombia Malaysia Sri Lanka

Cuba Malta Surinam

Curacao Mauritania Swaziland

Cyprus Mauritius Sweden

El Salvador Nauru Switzerland

Fiji Netherlands Tonga

Finland Niger Trinidad & Tobago

Gambia Nigeria Tuvalu

Ghana Norfolk Islands United Kingdom

Grenada Norway Zambia

To document his status as a dual national, the registrant must provide the information requested by the Selective Service Area Office and furnish a Consular certificate, written in English, verifying his nationality in one of the countries listed above.

It's very real for some of us, so some of the earlier comments aren't that greatly appreciated. It's not something to be taken lightly, because it's not the kids of the repugs who will be going, it's our kids - despite our best efforts to oust bush from power.

I'm hoping that women won't be on the list, and if we're lucky, my son's history of cancer and possible after-effects from chemo might make him ineligible. Otherwise, it's only a 5 hour drive to Canada (well, plus a little paddle across the boundary waters).

When I was growing up, I admired my parents for their stand against the war. My mom would go to campus at UW-Madison during the riots in order to support the kids and be a witness to what the cops were doing. I hope that I can live up to her memory and take as strong a stand.

In the meantime, I'm going to do my best to help our country elect a president who knows that diplomacy is the key, and war is only a last resort.

You wrote, "It's not something to be taken lightly, because it's not the kids of the repugs who will be going, it's our kids - despite our best efforts to oust bush from power."

Baloney; the exempted ones will children of PRIVILEGE, including some Democrats and lots of corporate whores. There will be plenty of right-wing farm families seeing their children off to war.

And conservatives aren't the only ones to blame. Take a good hard look at the Vichy Democrats and the fools who elect them. There are virtually no heroes at all here in Seattle.

a level of security that could bankrupt this nation.

but odds are, if you're a family of privilege, you're more likely to be a family of republicans, voting for the current administration.

But just to prove your point, I was doing battle with my right-wing, lower middle-class brother-in-law this weekend (happy frickin' Thanksgiving!), and he told me that he's so excited for when bush is re-elected, so we can go into Iran, Syria and - I can't remember which other country he named - in order to 'set them straight, just like Iraq.' I asked him how he'll feel when his three kids are drafted, and he said he'll be glad to see them go, because our country is finally doing what is right.

How can you argue with that? I gave him a hug and told him that I'd be sending someone down to his home in Iowa next November to break his knees so he won't be able to go vote. Frankly, I was so astounded, that if I had told him what I really thought, he probably would have hit me.

then most of the soldiers won't re-enlist. Period.

This is a term that gets used in the military a lot and it means that you're finished, your time is up, you're ready to not re-enlist, or ready to go home, but they're keeping you just the same.

They can do this. Just because you're at the end of your tour doesn't mean you get to quit.

When you sign the dotted line, they own you. Slavery? Purt' near.

Anyone who is coming up for re-up that didn'y plan on re-enlisting is likely to be extended anyway and held against their wills.

Methinks the return of scragging is but around the corner,

Politicat (who has two brothers-in-law nearing the end of their terms and resigned to the fact that they will be extended.)

I mean, they can keep the soldiers in the military forever, but I would think that would tend to erode the general effectiveness of the soldiers, both physically and psychologically? I mean isn't that a recipe for mutiny?

but they can and already are doing it. They will still run out of fodder.

GOD DAMN IT! They tried to kill me in Vietfuckingnam.... Now 33 years later they want the most important product of my obscure life: my boys... NO WAY ASSHOLES... My message to my 15 year old is get ready to join the Navy if you have to. He ain't goin' in no stinkig USMC like his pop. He will do his time aboard some air conditioned air craft carrier far from the poor bastards that his country is abusing... Pragmatism is the deal folks, plan ahead! Everybody can't just go to Canada. (Go for it if you can!)

his number was just about up (draft number that is), so he enlisted in the Navy. He thought it was the safest choice.

BUT, what would it take - how many people would have to say NO, and absolutely resist, before they would have to back down? As someone said earlier, they can't jail us ALL, can they?

My son is a vegetarian because he can't bear the thought of an animal being killed in order for him to eat. They're going to hand him an effing GUN and tell him to kill HUMAN BEINGS? They're NUTS!

or will they strengthen the border. i've been thinking about this with 4 sons of my own.

and simply tell them to Fuck off..SMile, burn the Draft card and we'll march on Washington. They can't put us all in Jail man..Passive resistance ala Ghandi and MLK is the most effective means of Change..REvolution..Tell your kids to just refuse to participate...If you are afraid to rock the boat, stand up for yourself and your childern, and resist then you and your kids deserve your fait...I'm sorry but i need to start hearing you Liberals grow some balls and STAND TOGETHER TO FIGHT!!!! Come on!

You're right they can't resist everybody, but then can arrest some, and you and I might be one of those "some". At that point it might be a choice between refugee status or jail. Its unsure what the environment will be like if and when the Draft becomes reinstated. Maybe we will be deeper into a police state. Maybe they will be able to eventually round up all the dodgers. Who knows.

:kick:

I have epilepsy, and am therefore inelligible (I think).

And, furthermore, the last think that fucking idiot wants to do is give me a weapon.

I am not fighting until I see every single member of College Republicans get drafted first.

and I'll happily deposit a million or so on his chin.

I've been laughing my ass off. Too rich. Love it.

Your laughter has redeemed me.

I don't know if we'll be able to go to Canada this time. During Vietnam Canada opened its doors to Americans trying to evade the draft. They could do it again but if they don't, you'll not get in.

I'm too old, my son is an only child (exempted from the draft in prior drafts) and his father is a CO which I hope will get him out.

If not...I'll tell him to go to jail.

This would be an excellent question for Free Republic.

"If there is a draft, will you serve?"

I am betting most responses will be "No, I have arthritis" or some shit along those lines.

Hell, it is sad that you would even have to ask a question like that. If all those assholes loved America half as much as they claimed to, they would have enlisted already to "protect" us in the "war on terra".

next year. We have already discussed it, and if it comes to a draft, we have decided that he, his mother and I are going to move to Canada.

Michael, a reservist, has been called to special duty in Minnesota. He promised to call as soon as possible, but the phone's not ringing.

It's been a couple days, and I'm getting worried.

http://www.duckdaotsu.org/resist.html

<snip>

Deciding What To Do

Deciding what to do when faced with Registration or the Draft can be a difficult and life-altering decision. If you choose to resist, it is helpful to keep two things in mind:

First, if you stand by your convictions, you cannot lose, and the government cannot win. The government may handcuff you or lock you up, but they cannot make you fight. If you give up any freedom, it is completely on your terms. In contrast, if you allow yourself to be coerced into military duties you risk death, disease, and disability, all for a cause you do not believe in.

Second, if you choose to resist, you will be treated as an adversary by the government. The government is no longer your friend ? if it ever was. You can expect the Selective Service to use every legal method and argument at their disposal to get you to abandon your convictions and to follow orders.

Keep records carefully, and make your own file of every transaction with the Selective Service, including phone calls. Do not rely on oral promises from Selective Service officials. Put things in writing, and attach receipts and even envelopes to the correspondence in your file. A second set of those records should be in the custody of someone you can rely on to forward copies as needed. When you make a record of a transaction with Selective Service, you should send a copy to Selective Service for inclusion in your file with the Area Office. When local boards become operational, you can see and copy information in your file. You can authorize others to do so on your behalf. Send your letters and claims to Selective Service by Certified Mail, Return Receipt Requested. Observe all deadlines scrupulously. Be sure to include your Selective Service number. Sign and date all papers submitted.

Get help. Check out how the counselor you are consulting was trained. Most attorneys know nothing about Selective Service law; ask their qualifications. Draft counselors will tend to know about qualified attorneys. There are two qualified national counseling organizations: The Center on Conscience & War (CCW), and the Central Committee for Conscientious Objectors (CCCO).

Choosing To Not Register

On a percentage basis, not registering is the most likely way to prevent you from being drafted. The book Chance and Circumstance states that between 250,000 and 2 million males did not register for the draft during the Vietnam War. According to reports from the Selective Service System, forty percent of the men who are required to register for the draft don't register in the sixty-day time period required by law. At least one or two percent still haven't registered by the time they are twenty. At age 26 they are no longer allowed to register. Thus, the number of permanent non-registrants increases daily. There is a known minimum of at least 300,000 people, perhaps a million, who are becoming permanent non-registrants.

If you refuse to register with Selective Service, you'll receive threatening letters, at first politely reminding you to register, then threatening prosecution, finally informing you that your name has been turned over to the Department of Justice for possible prosecution. These sound scary, but they're mostly bluff. No one has been formally charged since 1986.

In the early 1980s, 21 men were indicted for refusal to register: 19 of those 21 were public resisters. Wherever there were trials, the rates of registration actually went down. This resistance halted prosecutions

<snip>

I don't think they can get college loans or grants, or maybe even apply for classes unless they are registered. There are probably many other 'privileges'. I think our state even requires proof of registration to apply for a driver's license.

I believe every time we lose a soldier, it is a tragedy. I don't wish that on anyone.

Libs aren't a favorite around here .. but this is rather interesting:
http://www.lp.org/issues/res.draft.html
Libertarian Draft Resistance
30 August 1981

WHEREAS: the draft is the ultimate form of government control; it enslaves young people in the name of defending freedom; and

WHEREAS: the draft, by guaranteeing the manpower to fight unpopular wars abroad, encourages dangerous foreign adventurism of the sort now being practiced by the Reagan administration; and

WHEREAS: by the government's own admission, more than half a million eligible men have refused to comply with the government's draft registration program; and

WHEREAS: the Reagan administration is threatening to prosecute a small number of such resisters; and

WHEREAS: at least one draft-age Libertarian, a delegate to the 1981 Libertarian Party Convention and an activist in the anti-draft movement, has been singled out for prosecution by the Selective Service System, that Libertarian being Paul Jacob; and

WHEREAS: his situation represents the fears of hundreds of thousands of other young people under 22 years of age who must decide whether or not to register for the draft;

BE IT RESOLVED:


That the Libertarian Party National Committee unconditionally supports his right to resist, and will continue to support his struggle against the state in whatever form it takes consistent with libertarian values; and


That the Libertarian Party National Committee supports the right of all draft eligible youth to resist registration and the draft.

but my brother in the medical profession might still be old enough. He thinks he can claim a physical disability, but I think the govt will hose him again like they have with his possible Gulf War Syndrome (he has decided not to have kids because of the risk of birth defects).

overseas and in Canada.

Even though Mr. Politicat is 33, he has 6 years of National Guard (Artillery, the smart kind that aim the guns, not the others that load them) and was in Iraq I. He is a high level software developer with a security clearance, government experience and NASA experience and many other qualifications that make him very desirable, especially if they extend the draft to 45 for certain high tech and medical specialties.

The problem is that he is now a conscientious objector because of what he saw over there. However, the military and the SSS don't believe that a former soldier can be a conscientious objector. They don't understand a change of heart, a realization of guilt.

He has said he will kill himself before he will allow his actions to kill another person.

And so we are prepared to abandon everything and run.

Politicat (who does not want to be a widow.)

Running away only means someone else has to take your place.

I'm 31 so I'm getting a little up there when it comes to the draft. But I'd go to jail if it came under the current president's rule, and I'm not kidding. It would suck big time, but at least in jail you'd have a fighting chance and you'd know when your sentence is up. Our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan have no such luxury -- just a fake war by a fake president with no clear objectives or end.

But they'd have to find me first and since they can't find Bin Laden, Sadam, the Anthrax killer or WMD, I like my chances :)