PLEASE Be Civil: I Have an Honest Concern About Dean

As some here know, I have been hot-and-lukewarm on Dean. He was my candidate before Clark entered the race, then I got mad at him for falsely claiming Clark was a "Republican until 25 days ago," and since then I've kind of settled into a wait-and-see-what-happens attitude. Regardless, if Dean wins the nomination, I will work hard for him unless he goes nuclear on Clark, which I hope he doesn't do (and I doubt he will).

That said, at the risk of sounding incredibly trite, one of my biggest concerns about Dean centers around his temperament. This article I just read reinforces my concerns:

"<Longtime, close aide Mary> O'Connor thinks of Dean's frankness as refreshing and necessary candor, but she has seen it become an unsettling force, too: "He used to get up and make policy at press conferences," she said. "We'd all say, 'I can't believe you just said that.'"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A26716-2003Dec1?language=printer

I think that most of the time, Dean's judgment has been reasonably sound. Yet what about on those few occasions where his judgment, particularly his SNAP judgment, has NOT been sound? Sometimes, one flub, especially if the flub is major enough, can drown out a track record of success.

I have to be honest: I have concerns when a candidate's closest supporters freely admit that the candidate "get<s> up and make<s> policy at press conferences".

Is this truly not a concern at all for most of Dean's strong supporters? How do we allay this concern, should Dean get the nomination?

DTH

One thing about Dean is that he seems to learn from experience, admit his mistakes, and modify his behavior accordingly.

That's all I can ask.

One thing about Dean is that he seems to learn from experience, admit his mistakes, and modify his behavior accordingly.

But I think most people here would agree that despite his learning, he still has an at times alarming, or perhaps disconcerting, tendency to "shoot from the hip."

I want my President to be thoughtful and careful. I'm not sure I want "shoot from the hip" so much.

Regardless, he'll be better than Bush by a light year. But can you see why, given my preference, I prefer someone else in the primary?

DTH

last year, just after Dean's first major gaff, a vermont DUer, who did support him, candidly warned us that we'd "better get used to it"
because he had a habit of shooting from the lip. the DUer said this has been his history, all during his carreer.

then, just after his son got mixed up with that country club break in, Dean made a reference to his promblems with the dem PTB by saying something like, "they don't want me in their country club but i'll break in if i have to". this was filmed, i think by cspan, as was the period immediately after the speech when someone, an aid, i think, approached him, said something that the mics didn't quite pick up.
his eyes got wide and he was clearly upset when he learned what he had just said.

he said "why do i do things like that". it's my memory that he said 'always do' but another DUer challenged me on the quote and was quite sure so i guess unless/until the tape is replayed we won't know for sure.

add these to his being unaware that the stars and bars would cause controversy in his attempt to reach out to southern males and his admission, last night, that he didn't know the phrase "even-handed" was problematic when applied to the I/P issue.

also, i challenge the poster who says he learns, admits his mistakes and moves on. he doesn't admit errors easily or quickly. the flag gaff dragged on for days, eating news cycle after news cycle, derailing a debate and two more news cycles. FIVE DAYS, i think. wasted. what happens during the general when we can't afford to surrender five news cycles.

add all this to the new report that he makes policy on the fly and i think we get even more insight into his personality. i'm afraid he
isn't a thoughtful person. this may not be a big issue as governor of a small state but as leader of a super power, as a man who's every inflection can send ripples around the world, this is a problem.

If a candidate says, “I don’t know” or ‘I have changed my mind” of “I made a mistake” they are jumped all over and called flip-flop and derided for the obvious admission that no one knows everything.
How many of them come out of the womb fully knowledgeable about every thing and need not change in time? Say your man is like that and I say you are living in a fantasy.

It's about not just blurting out major policy changes before thinking through the ramifications.

Truthfulness is great. It's even better when combined with thoughtfulness.

DTH

until I saw this post by you.

Sincerely, huh? Clever.

Eloriel

DTH is fair.Many people think the same of you when asking about Clark.Are you sincere when you do so? If so then I believe that DTH may be one of the few Clark supporters I've seen to deserve that same consideration.

I am so sick of the bullshit. Tonight is a turning point in terms of how sick I am of the bullshit.

DTH

and will stay that way until after the primaries.Do what I do and just get a good set of waders :)

;-)

DTH

:)

How goes the self-congratulatory campaign, Eloriel?

DTH

Dean does not strike me as a person who thinks before he speaks - he just shoots from the hip and it is not a plus for me. Clark on the other hand is so damn intelligent that even when he shoots from the hip he usually hits the target (so to speak).

Rah rah, go Dean... I just fail to give a shit.

Dean appears as if he may have ADHD. My spouse has it and he flys off with "curt" comments like this ALL THE TIME! I often wonder if Dean has wondered that as well.

There is nothing wrong with having ADHD--in fact in has many benefits.

and why he is so popular :shrug:

:hi:

peace

making mistakes at this stage. There are candidates who've run for office far fewer times, and they're doing great.

Bush only ran three times, and he was relatively error-free.

Were you watching the same election campaign I was?

Tell me you didn't say that.

My Gods AP, were you doing missionary work in Mongolia during election 2000? Did you not see the litany of Bush goofs, fumbles and outright lies - so much so that an entire book has been written on the subject ("The Bush Dyslexicon")?

I submit that your hatred of Howard Dean has now gone so far that it's dulled your honesty, your memory, or both.

He called a reporter and asshole on an open mic. Did he do that on purpose?

When he said "subliminable" that was definitely intentional -- the idea was that anyone who didn't know the word probably didn't do the word.

The misspeaking was ALL intentional, as far as I'm concerned.

I would say the only real mistake Bush made was being a totally lazy campaigner. But, apparently, he knew he wasn't going to work hard to win.

Look, I'm not alone in saying this. I think Clinton said the guy was a formidable campaigner who stayed on message and was able to sell himslef as exactly what his campaign wanted to present.

Clark's anti-war record prior to Campaign 2004 is hardly overwhelming - and some of the statements he made on September 11 are very disturbing. I'm also bothered by the fact that Dean has sealedhis Governor's records; what's he hiding?

It could be true, but it could just as easily be spin to address the problem of Dean sometime being on both sides of an issue. You'd rather have your candidate seem impetuous and sincere, than conniving, shifting and duplicitous.

This might be a way to spin some things that are coming down the pike.

But then again it could be totally true. One recent example was on the campaign finance thing. At a press conference Dean responded to a suggestion from the audience that he should challenge Bush to operate within the publica finance strictures that he'd do that. According to some article, that surprised his staff because they'd already decided to back out of public financing. Anyway, Dean never challenged Bush.

I tend to believe it's her honest opinion.

As for the campaign finance thing, I remember that as well. It's one of several off-the-cuff remarks that he's made.

I think the Bush challenge would've been great, btw.

DTH

I'm no expert on him (understatement).
Tho' plan to look into him more.

But I frankly think all of the Dem candidates
should show considerable fire in the face of
a fascist opponent. And...I rather hate it
when the foremost media whores, like the WP,
are used to support any premise at DU, of all places.

I know we don't have the luxury of ignoring them,
'cause the people read the rags. But it's hard
to rebut their propaganda.

There's a big difference, in my mind. Some emotion is good. Fighting for what you believe in is good.

But snap judgments happen when you allow your emotion to override your logic. Or when you don't think something fully through. Or when you're impulsive. Again, I'm not so sure about that in a President.

Maybe temperament is the wrong word.

DTH

is what you're saying.

My view as well.

Sorry if I'm uncouth.

I'm saying I have concerns about what his close supporter says about his "shoot from the hip" moments, and the ramifications of doing that, even only occasionally, from the bully pulpit of the Presidency. Or in a state dinner. Or in a difficult negotiation.

DTH

Sorry.

It just hit a button (I have a lot of them)
'cause there have been some pretty jaw dropping
attacks, even at Salon - and I love Salon, over
his supposed anger. Is Dean too angry?? And I don't
think anyone in this country can be angry enough at
what's going on.

But your question was largely about snap judgements,
and I need to study Dean more closely so that I don't...
form a snap judgement about that. :)

I've looked into Clark and Kucinich quite a bit, but
Dean not near as much. I need to do that.

Hey, I've got it!
I'll read more posts in this thread!

I used to love them, but I think both have posted poor quality writings in the recent past.

DTH

but Slate sucks. Kaus especially irritates me... I'm so dissapointed with all the "liberal" magazine sites. I used to like TNR, but it seems to be in love with Lieberman and is way too supportive of the Bush* foreign policy...TheNation's hit piece on Clark was disgusting...Oh well, there's DU!

In fact I think they're more than ok; I think
they're one of our few good news sources.
Hell, they have Joe Conason's journal!

Even the best will have some columns I think are
dumb though. And the one about Dean's "anger" made
me...angry.

.... I think I understand Dean because I'm a lot like him. I'm prone to shooting off my mouth for effect now and then.

But when it comes time to actually do something, I am much more cautious. I'd love to hear of examples of Dean actually doing something that was based on a snap judgement and was imprudent. Bet you have trouble finding an example.

IMHO there is a place for the quick rejoinder, even if it doesn't wind up being firm policy. At least Dean actually says something, rather than hiding behind the platitudes and non-statements that so many pols are fond of using.

I'd be curious to know what, specifically, O'Connor was referring to when she made this statement. I don't know enough about Dean's record in Vermont to know.

DTH

it's best to try to not be perfect and just let the candidate try to do their best. IMHO, if folks don't expect the candidate to be perfect, then folks will expect the inevitable occasional slip-up, rather than dwelling on it. Some teflon.

Personally, I'm happy with Dean's temperment. I would rather have a "real person" representing me than someone trying to act like a perfect person.

Some imperfections matter more than others though, no?

I think the poster above who mentioned fire and passion nails it, in many ways. My perception is that many Dean supporters are sick of the Vichy Dems who have been "leaders" in the party lately. I agree with that, in concept.

I guess I'm just not sure about how it boils down in actuality. And of course, certain things matter more to certain people than other things. Diff'rent strokes, and all that.

DTH

but I doubt that it happens as much as the article may imply it happens. One thing about Dean that I like, is that when he makes a mistake, he changes his mind and says he was wrong. Perhaps it is his training as a doctor that makes him more scientific in his thinking. He's not married to policy ideas if data demonstrates that some other policy idea is better.

From O'Connor's account, however, it sounds like it happened more than once. My personal preference would be for it (making policy up on the fly) NEVER to happen, but again, tastes vary.

I'm not really talking about his ability to change his mind; it's more the potential impulsiveness that concerns me.

DTH

but like I said, I doubt it actually happens that often. I like the idea that he can think on his feet, rather than every word being handled by staff (this is a reference to Bush, so no flames from anyone :-) ), so it's not an awful thing.

But on the other hand, too much of this could be a bad thing.

I think that's right, and I think it's ultimately a line-drawing issue. This is an area where many people will obviously have to agree to disagree. In fact, I think it's like that for MOST of the candidate-war stuff, but people are often just too hot and upset and emotional to see it.

Thanks for the dialogue.

:thumbsup:

DTH

again, based on cspan's filming...this time on a bus when a reporter
asked him a question about a previous position he had held. iirc. it was about the raising of the SS age.

the scene actually left me 'mouth agap'. his reply was "no i didn't"
the reporter attempted to spark his memory about the statement to which she was referring. he denied it again. the reporter told him she had the statement and handed it to him. as i said before, after watching him sputter and stammer i left the room to get a stiff drink.

now, either his memory is even worse than mine or he has a real problem with admitting mistakes or even changes of position. i can't express, at least not politetly how much that episode disturbed and scared me.

but this is that same tired argument re: the difference between entertain and support. Check a dictionary and figure it out for yourself.

Are you sure Dean shoots from the hip? Have you ever considered the notion that Dean is cultivating an image as someone who shoots from the hip?

I know that may sound odd at first, but I began to wonder after the Confederate flag "misshap." I think Dean said exactly what he wanted to say there, which is exactly what all the Dems wanted to say, but were afraid to say.

Bush uses a similar method, IMO. I believe Bush cultivates an image as an uneducated idiot, so that he looks more Midland and less Andover, and so that his opponents will "misunderestimate" him.

It's politics.

Those who present the right image have the best chance at winning, and those who keep winning have the best chance to affect US policy.

just a thought :)

That's good AND bad. Some people might be very attracted to a "shoot from the hip" type of guy, especially on a surface level.

I'm saying I'm not.

Regardless, as I state above, I believe O'Connor was being sincere, and I also think Dean really is that impulsive (or allows his emotion to override his logic) on occasion. You can see it lurking under the surface when he bristles during the debates, you can read it in the occasional "Inside Baseball" story about his appearances, you can hear it from his closest supporters.

If it is all one big act, it's one I'm certainly not comfortable with. But hey, what do I know. I'm just a random guy posting on an Internet discussion board, and Dean is leading the pack for the Democratic nomination.

DTH

it doesn't fly unless he is a totally calous father who would exploit his son's problem for political gain.

I can't find it, and I want the exact quote, and source, just to be fair :)

it was a 'stump speech' very soon after his son's problem. if that helps. iirc, he went home to be with his son the weekend when the story of the break in broke. i believe this incident happened the following week.

i'm thinking it was cspan because when i brought it up at the time, only a few DUers said they saw it so it probably wasn't one of the regular tv channels. maybe cspan has the video archived but i'm on dial up and can't 'stream'.

wouldn't it be great if we could 'link' to our memories? i'm still stumped as to whether he said 'always do that' or 'do that'. i'm sorry, that's all i can offer as proof. i saw it.

eom

I'm saying this is one of the reasons I'm not as keen on Dean as our potential nominee. And that I guess I'm confused as to why it's not a big deal, apparently, to most Dean supporters, especially since I personally happen to think it's an incredibly important criterion to consider when selecting a potential President.

DTH

For all the scorn and disregard heaped on Dean for having governed such a small state I am surprised at this concern of yours being so large in your mind.

I am quite sure Dean knows there is a huge difference between the small retail-size world of Vermont and the world stage that entails the presidency.

Just my opinion.

Julie

the question is can he alter his behavior in respect to the difference. things that can be smoothed over in a small state may not be so easily handled on the world stage. the issue is, can Dean
change from a 'shoot from the hip or lip' type of guy to a thoughtful,
reasoned leader on the world stage.

if he can change, why hasn't he? he is obviously aware of the problem. if he hasn't changed, we have to consider that he can't.

do we want to, can we afford to 'get used to it' as was advised by one of his early supporters here. i think that's the issue.

with a few dog piles from the other Dems and the coporate media latching on to every word I think he HAS learned the difference and seems to move with a bit more caution these days.

Apparently you disagree?

Julie

...fundamental character traits.

One thing about me is that I'm very much a "character counts" voter, in addition to being a true-blue Dem. It's something I analyze very carefully in potential candidates, and it's something I care about very much.

I'm not saying Dean has poor character. I'm just saying he raises enough concerns for him not to be my first choice any more. He still has tons more character than GWB.

DTH

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

for someone to try and deflect an honest and, up to this point, polite discussion of a Dean issue with a personal attack.

if you knew it was anything other than flamebait.

As for your views on Dean--I don't recall anything close to lukewarm--What I do recall is you came out swinging the very moment the fickle Clark finished flirting around and had his coming out party. Since then you have been low-keyed but only after you were read the riot act.

Amazing how you Clarkies have to squeeze water out of stone to find something to harp on about...movies, freeper shots of Dean, his draft status as not suitably bloodthirsty...

with an attack on the questioner instead of the question.

is to plant seeds of doubt.

Just like Republicans, who will use anything and repeat it over and over and over as if it was something.

First he gives speeches saying he's for "ReREgulation" (his words not mine).
Last night when asked if he'd ReRegulate he says NO, He wants Accountability.

Dean gets the Union Endorsements and then last night he bails out on them and won't come out Against Right To Work Laws.
The best he'll do is sign Legislation if it comes to his desk. Otherwise, it's up to the states...

So Dean gets the Unions and then leaves them hanging... If he'll leave Right To Work legislation up to the states then how can he argue that ANY Union legislation should come from the Federal Government.

Also, Dean says the Media can't be as big as it is now and THEN he says he won't work to break them up.

Finally, as Governor Dean believed that Social Security ages should raise, Affirmative Action should be based on Class, Patients shouldn't be allowed to sue HMO's. These are all positions on which he has done a 180 on in the one year siice he's been Governor.

There is no reason why Dean had to have the above positions as Vermont's Governor. Vermont elected Bernie Sanders... it's Liberal.
And the above mentioned issues aren't specifically State oriented. So what reason did Dean have for holding those positions and WHY DID IT CHANGE JUST BEFORE HE RUNS FOR PRESIDENT?

Why does Dean seem to change from one minute to the next?

Why does he use rhetoric like ReRegulation and then when pressed for specifics buckle under?

Supposedly Dean is a straighttalker... I am sorry, but the above points to something else other than that.

You are trying to invent a conflict where there isn't one and it is pathetic. He did not say he was against reregulation, accountability is the motivation for reregulation. You are simply trying to impose some conflict for your own purposes.

Dean said he would not reregulate.

Reregulation (passing new legislation) is very different than holding corporations Accountable (eforcing existing laws)

Clark has said he would enforce existing laws (Accountability) and IN SOME CASES (Media & Environment) go frther.

Dean supporters latched onto Dean's utterance of the word "Reregulation" and Dean has just backed off what the word actually means.

You heard what you wanted to hear. If you think Dean left the unions "hanging" by saying that he favors check-off membership, then you don't understand the importance of that issue.

Dean is not.

If Dean isn't willing to stand up against Right To Work laws as President then why has he gotten the Union Endorsements?

If Dean won't stand up to anti-Union laws at the Federal level and leaves Union legislation to the states he has no business representing Labor.

electability.

If we are looking for temperment specifically, then while it bothers me, it is down there on my list of concerns.

cryinshame, has voiced a few of my concerns, but there are many others. Let's just say that I'm curious why liberals/progressives have placed Dean at the top of their list. Dean is center-right, and his move on deregulation didn't surprize me. So while I may have to one day support Dean, it will only be because he is not junior.

I am very concerned about his approach to foreign policy, and with the living proof in the WH, for a president to not understand this extremely complex issue at this time, advisors can lead the unlearned and thus the American people into hell. Forget any comparison to Clinton, the chimp has things so screwed up, we are sitting on a tinder box. Also, being perfectly realistic, Clinton is a brilliant man.'Nuff said.

Again, we have three liberal, viable candidates in this race. They all have sellable strengths, so my question is not "is Dean electable?" My question is why do I want to elect Dean? Because of the IWR? Dean supported extended inspections of another 30 to 60 day before going in. Big whoop!

Liberal? No. Trust factor? Maybe--but for me, not at all. Knowledgable? Some Issues--but not the priority issue in 2004 Temperment? Depends--okay for expressing anger of base/not a selling point for suitability for POTUS

For the Clark haters here...leaving him out of the equation: I find that Kerry, Edwards, and Gephardt stack up much better on the issues, ideology, and temperment.

I remember it as if it were just last week. WAIT, it was just last week that Dean's supporters referred to Clark as a tool of the MIC, or maybe it was a stalking horse, or was it the time he morphed in BFEE-PNAC.

There were some good things about those multiple threads, some knowledgable DUers explained the difference between energy dereg in PA as opposed to what happen in CA. Also, some people had substanitive comments to make regarding the current laws and loopholes. I wish it was those voices that set the tone, alas, that was not to be the case.

Sure, Dean has a temper, but in examining his actual performance of his duties as a legislator, Lt. Gov. and Gov., can anyone actually point out an instance where his anger overwhelmed his judgment? I think this is a critical distinction.

Let's not forget that Gov. Dean is also a physician, and by all accounts a darned good one, and that sort of reputation is seldom earned by someone who has any substantive anger-management/judgment problems.

:)

I agree, that's a very legitimate point.

DTH

I thought he would do fine and he did fine. I don't entertain illusions that he is a knight on a white charger--or prop up images of him as some complete package. To me he is a fundamentally decent man with a fairly straightforward agenda and a committment to work hard for this country. He may not be ideal, or an idealist, but he is authentic and he is courageous--and that is exactly the tonic this country needs in this spun age of media constructed pop images and controlled consensus. It was some of the little things he mentioned--that "people had souls and were not just cogs in the machine" which impress me and give some insight into his fundamental nature.
But notice that most of the threads are hostile or thinly-veiled attacks on the most obscure, insignificant tidbits---what his favorite movie is, for example. Obviously Dean did well, in order for so many partisans to be so threatened that they must launch ongoing, calculated attacks based on so little. The outcome is there is little of true policy--it is just sour grapes and defensiveness---which keeps everyone else, who isn't etertaining a Clark fanaticism, to put effort into constantly warding off the onslaught of negativity.

One might have a problem with gaffes every now and then, but unlike some other candidates, Dean has been clear where he stands on most issues.

Dean has been clear where he stands on most issues.

This thread isn't really about this subject, so as the thread starter I'm hesitant to get into it, but you and I have VERY different opinions on Dean's clarity and consistency on the issues.

DTH

about that concern :eyes:

I'm not interested in starting a thread like that, because there's nothing new and timely about the subject. It's old news, at least until Dean makes another switch.

DTH

peace

I hate insincere bullshit. Generally speaking, of course.

I love watching clueless people get spanked in I/P, though. Generally speaking, again.

DTH

u must need sleep :shrug:

surely you couldn't be a dem against peace... DoveTurnedHawk

peace

Because undoubtedly it would be a rules violation.

Hugs and Kisses,

DTH

peace

The "anger" factor of liberals has actually started to make front page CNN news. The photo that accompanies the story is a sign someone is holding with a picture of Bush-hole, under it "WARMONGER". The message is getting out.

Why is this a good thing? Look at the first shot in the negative ad wars launched by the GOP, in which "some people" were accused of attacking Bush for attacking terrorists. It is a good sign that this ad came out so early. It shows that they are already afraid. What has made them so afraid, so early on? Well you could point to a dozen things and probably be accurate, but without a doubt one of those is the rising tide of defiant anger coming from the liberal/left. The GOP right just isn't used to this. They are used to the pink tutus rolling over as soon as a stern look comes their way.

In this context, is Dean's "anger" (which is politically overblown by rival candidates campaigns) a bad thing? To be honest with you, I'd be less likely to back Dean if it were any less.

Whether he foresaw this or not he is the figurehead of a revolt. Revolts have to have resolve and fire behind them or they are bound to fizzle.

It's about the impulsiveness/emotion overriding logic, to the point of unexpectedly making policy on the stump.

DTH

"It's about the impulsiveness/emotion overriding logic, to the point of unexpectedly making policy on the stump."

just to be fair :hi:

peace

I want the freshness of knowing a human being is saying things- someone I can trust, who's willing RE-state something to clarify it for me, willing to use the language to communicate. Someone not dependent on sound bites and TOTAL, incapacitating PC.

I listen to govt officials on c-span and they can talk on and on. -It makes sense, but you have no idea of the mssg behind the words. You KNOW there is one but you'd have to do endless research to cull it down. Dean cuts the bs. It may have risks for him but I prefer it.

I have no concern at all that he'd fly off or speak out of turn in critical situations. None.

That is one of the attributes of Dean that I admire most. I really don't like over handled, Washington insiders. I think people notice this characteristic too. They can tell when someone is speaking their mind and when someone is speaking through a handler. Dean is certainly a politician, but he conveys the image of being straight forward and truthful, even at the cost ofoccasionally mis-speaking. People don't care about that.

This is the type of thing that we can get bogged down in with every candidate, and that can only serve to bog us down in the ultimate battle against Georgie boy.

There are no perfect human beings. It's as simple as that.

Dean is no different from shrub. At least if Dean gets the nod Letterman can keep his format of daily presidental flubs.
Actually, if Dean gets the nod, the president won't change either.

but he'll have to find a new place to live. ;-)

telling us our own aren't electible when we have our own willing to do their legwork for them.

we need swing voters to beat shrub and Dean is not attracting the swing voters, the disgusted Republicans nor the moderate/conservative Democrats. Nor will Dean get the votes from the anti-NRA crowd. I'm a Dem precinct delegate but I won't vote for any candidate who is endorsed by the NRA.

They forgive stupid gaffs. They even forgive adultery in the white house. Dean comes off as human and sincere instead of scripted, and that's a good thing even with the risk that he'll say something stupid.

They forgave Bush I for "Read my lips...."?

Did they forgive Clinton for "I did not have sexual realtions with that woman..."?

Did they forgive Nixon for "I am not a crook"?

for a more recent example. shoot, even foot-in-mouth bush got in.

i think it is fairly obvious by now that a person who speaks from his heart vs a wonk is definitely in vogue these days the dems who capitalize on this trend will do better than those who don't i.e. dean.

of course it isn't everything but certainly a big plus ;->

peace

SNAP judgments are what they are and leaders are sometimes called on to make them.

but speaking of 'SNAP' judgements in a real time of crisis remember who wanted to risk engaging the russians in the 90's AFTER the wall fell :evilgrin:

ABB: his snap D's are way better than shrubs :bounce:

peace

I am tired of coy bullshit.

If people believe the RW shit, then more fool them.

DTH

:shrug:

peace

Very sad.

So how's I/P going, bp?

DTH

because you were the one doin the accusing but i wasn't sure who you were refering to.

i guess you didn't me you.

anyways...

bout I/P i'd say the doves are holding their own and i wish i had more time to spend there but you know what they say, not enough hours in a day ;->

:hi:

peace

Dean people like his unrehearsed style.

btw . a little 'flub' of your own ..
"<Longtime, close aide Mary> O'Connor

Her name is Kate.

My mistake.

:eyes:

DTH

He got charged with the flag issue, he ruminated, he thought about it, and he came public and changed his mind. Presidents can make mistakes, espescially if they come public and admit it. I want a president more invested in the public good than he is in his ego.

I don't give a fuck.

I don't want a President who shoots off his mouth without thinking. Or without thinking MUCH.

DTH

maybe it's what you dislike most about yourself and are overly sensitive when you suspect others of the slightest hint of it in them

:shrug:

you certainly seem a tad obsessed with it though... maybe you need to turn in for the night.

hope you feel better tomorrow :hi:

peace

And you can keep your alleged concern.

Speaking of obsessed...I understand people who are obsessed with Israeli/Palestine issues after being demolished in an intellectual debate are pretty obsessed themselves.

DTH, Who Loves Himself To the Point of Multiple Masturbatory Orgasms

:evilgrin:

DoveTurnedHawk

peace

I too started out in the "Dean machine"

Got out before they could homoginize me into a Dean patt(s)y.

Dean in 2004!