Do you have a problem with draft dodging?

Personally I have no problem whatsoever with dodging the draft, whether it be because of pacifism, poor health, ideological differences, or just plain fear. Connect this to Dean if you want to.


Your Thoughts?

If we are being invaded, then I would be a bit pissed. However, I don't mind draft dodging.

And post 9/11, I think people will feel more comfortable with someone who has military and combat experience.

you may be right about what people are more comfortable with. I don't know the people that well, and I choose not to speculate.

But I would like to address the logic behind the notion. The president has little to do with military strategy. He makes choices based on what his advisors tell him. Any D president will be well informed as to options and their ramifications.

A president with military experience seems like it should mean something, and I'm not saying it doesn't. I just don't understand exactly what advantage it gives a sitting president. I feel like I can make a better argument for why a former governor would make a better president, and even that argument wouldn't be very strong.

Intelligent people like us can discern such nuances. A lot of the rest of the country can't. And all things being equal, being a veteran plays better than being a draft dodger.

I guess I just have more faith in the people. I think they know what draft dodging means and that it doesn't apply. Being a veteran helps, to be sure. But it didn't do much for Bob Kerrey when he used it against Clinton in 1992. In fact, who is the last Democrat to win the nomination (not counting sitting vice presidents) who was a veteran? And was his veteran status the reason?

Honestly, I don't have the time or the inclination to research it. We're all going to find out how much it matters come 2004.

Yep .. Doesn't Rummy have foreign policy experience? Listen to his expertise .. (my bold)
..snip..
"Their lying has finally become satire. Bush told David Frost that the world really had to change its attitude about Saddam Hussein's nuclear weapons because they were "very advanced". My personal favourite is Donald Rumsfeld's assessment. "The message," he said, "is that there are known knowns - there are things that we know that we know. There are known unknowns - that is to say, there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns ... things we do not know we don't know. And each year we discover a few more of those unknown unknowns."
.. snip..

We can do a LOT better than that.

I don't think Rumsfeld would still be around.

WE can do Better than that ;) ..

one of the best lines on foreign policy i've heard this campaign is when wes clark said, "I put my finger in the chest of a dictator and said, 'if you don't clean this up we're gonna bomb you,' he didn't, and we bombed him."

that was rather bold from a dem. candidate. It was in a debate. Not an exact quote.

of wagging the flag, and now that he's created a monster, people aren't going to do what he thinks he's going to try to do. There's also been articles in our paper recently about BBV, oil, and people are waking up and want him out, republicans included....It wouldn't surprise me at all to see people tell them what they can do!

You may want to read this military man's viewpoint.

..snip..
"So we finish our tour, and go back to our families, who can see that even though we function, we are empty and incapable of truly connecting to people any more, and maybe we can go for months or even years before we fill that void where we surrendered our humanity, with chemical anesthetics--drugs, alcohol, until we realize that the void can never be filled and we shoot ourselves, or head off into the street where we can disappear with the flotsam of society, or we hurt others, esepcially those who try to love us, and end up as another incarceration statistic or a mental patient."
..snip..
http://www.veteransforpeace.org/Hold_on_to_your_111503.htm

Killing, even in the name of war, does not improve one's qualifications to be president.
Never having been elected (or run) for any office (except student body) does not improve one's qualifications to be president.

They'll slime whoever is the nominee as a terrorist coddling coward. Military experience won't nullify such criticism, only fighting back will.

In reference to Vietnam, no I don't have a problem with it.

half the country considered it a valid way to stop the idiotic war.

I dodged it in Vietnam and if the draft is reinstated, I'm going to figure out a way to keep my soon-to-be-draft-age sons out of it, unless a Dem is elected who will go to war only to defend this country.

Willingly jumping off a cliff for stupid reasons is the behaviour of a lemming.....not a patriot.

no I'm 14

to AmericanDem post #6.

Maybe he's off enlisting...

what are your reasons?

if the person is hawkish generally, then I would :eyes: the person, if they are doves, and genuinely oppose the war or whatever its ok.

illegality and inhumanity and brutality?

'Cause I sure do. :)

Iraqi resistance fighters shooting back.

Question: Do you ever think it's a possible "higher law" to use force to fight an already immoral force bearing down on you?

including Dean, who I don't consider a "draft dodger" in the strict sense of the word. However, I do tend to believe that Dean's lack of military service during the Vietnam era is likely to lose him some votes, and that's a reality he (and his supporters) will have to accept. Maybe not enough votes to matter in the big picture.

However, part deux, his lack of military service is not a strike against him for me as a voter. I do have a problem with his lack of foreign policy credentials, which I do not equate that with military service.

no, I have no problem with it at all.

I dodged the draft during Vietnam. Well dodged induction would be more accurate. Went to the local Navy Yard with a bunch of other poor suckers who had gotten low draft numbers...went through the whole process with a set response to every question. I wanted a CO deferrment and had an underlying genetic neurological condition. Got a medical deferrment, they didn't want me, but took the evening train home and lots of those guys from the morning ride weren't there. I know some never came home....thought about it for a loooong time. A brother-in-law who went and saw what it was first hand helped me get over it.

We all made choices at that time.

The laws in america are void... the constituion is suspended... racist fuckers have run riot over the democracy... dodge the draft... it is your patriotic obligation... otherwise, you are treasonous and a criminal in my view.

Until the constitution is restored, the laws are void. Until a free and fair election is held barring participation from treasonous election violation fraud criminals, you have no obligation whatsoever to oblige any federal law, draft law, or tax law...

Its the 2000 bush anarchy and who knows when it will end.

but if I thought the reason for war was unjust then I would
myself be a conscientious objector (a draft dodger).

I think having people avoid the draft serves an important function.

So, if I avoided the draft in WW2, that would be inexcusable.
However, I think if I avoided the Vietnam draft, that would have
been very acceptable.

I don't think anyone should put someone else in harms way if they
didn't or wouldn't do it themselves. So, I think that this makes
chickenhawks like Bush lower than slime.

I'd rather be called a draft-dodger than AWOL

If your talking about WWII, yes. If it is Viet Nam, yes. If Iraq is the war, no. The draft rules were such for Nam that you could be defered if you were in college, medical reasons, or run to Canada. Was it right, no, but that was the reality. I was married and had two kids at that time, they did not want me, and I am very glad, because I would have went if I would have been told too. Dr. Dean got a medical deferment, but would have went if they told him too. He went through the system as I did. I think we should let this issue die, it helps no one but the rethugs.

Unless, like Bush, you supported the war.

We're going to be seeing a LOT of that over at freepville.

unless you support the war in question, then your ass should be up;
starting with all the relatives of those who are running/commanding it.

this is my most sucessful post thus far. Awesome. Thanks again.

The very term "draft dodging" has political content, suggesting you are eluding something that has some necessary force. The proper term in many cases is draft resistance: You are resisting an arbitrary force exercised without warrant.

This is the old lie about draft resistance: You have committed some unspeakably immoral act because somebody else has been sent to replace your empty spot in the war. Nonsense. This lie also imagines the war as some necessary force, and displaces the true blame for the thoroughly contingent operation onto its victims (the drafted and sent together).

One could just as easily blame everyone who went to the war for the deaths of those who died in the war, since had nobody assented to the madness, nobody would have died, and the contingent force of the government would not have been able to run its war.

N/T.

so I have absolutely nothing against anyone that dodged the draft during Vietnam. I do get pissed when chickenhawk fascists claim Bush defending Texas airspace from the VC (and of course going AWOL) was a great noble effort compared to Dean. I actually heard that Bi*ch Kate O'Brien claim this, that "Bush served in unform". All I can say is that atleast Dean was honest about not wanting to go. That candor was impressive.

As for WWII, I still can't fault someone for not wanting to fight in a war. Granted, if the nation was invaded somehow or if the war was just, I would hope that everyone would do what they could to join the cause, even in an indirect way, just as just about everyone joined the cause to defeat the Nazis and Imperial Japan in WWII.

But, at the same time, I'll admit, I admire a person that has served in battle such as Clark and Kerry.

As long as Dean was not a supporter of the Vietnam War I have no beef with what he did.

As for the current prospects for a draft: I am a year too old to be draftede according to existing US law, but if they were to raise the age, they can just try to COME AND GET ME!

:)

I don't believe there can be any justification for war, so that alone gets me conscientious objector status... but then they just stick you in a non-combat position. However, I believe that even being a CO and not fighting means implicitly supporting war, since I would have done nothing to stop it, ergo I must dodge the draft, and I can't fault someone for doing something I would do in the same situation, since I'm not a hypocrite.

Since there can be no justification for war, dodging the draft requires no justification.

If an individual seeks to avoid the draft, I don't have a problem with that in and of itself. I understand in a relative way, where some of those motivations come from.

I can still respect and admire individuals who answer the call of conscription as well.

What I can't abide is anyone who avoided military service, but blows a lot of air about bravery and patriotism, while employing whimsical rationale to send other young men and women into battle.

And someone said that someone poorer could go, but someone richer could also go.

I remember Viet Nam and the palpable fear that wieghed heavy on every 18 to 22 year old. I remember the draft boards and lottery numbers. I remember going to anti-war vigils and rallies and the chant "Hell No We Won't Go!". While I admire and respect Kerry for his service, I understand Dean's relief and being spared.

How can a draft dodger be allowed to send our sons and daughters into battle? Would you want your kid to do something the commander-in-chief wouldn't do? Would you, yourself, want to follow the orders of a coward? Why would anyone want to do what a draft dodger wasn't willing to do? I know I wouldn't follow the lead of a such a man.

BTW: Not all draft dodgers went to Canada. Some hid in the National Guard. Think Dan Quayle. Think George W Bush.

Some draft dodgers went skiing. Think Howard Dean.

EDIT: Clarified last sentences.

Cowardly, chickenshit assholes pimping war when they don't have the integrity to put their own lives, or the lives of their children, on the line.

I say if there is a draft, lets first enlist all of the College Republicans.

. . . is when the pr!ck in question insists on hiding behind something other than his convictions. That includes phony medical exemptions, "protected" National Guard service, or anything of that sort.

Muhammed Ali was a draft-dodger with conviction. Most of the Baby Boomers who have held public office in the last decade or so are just @ssholes.

I'm one of those "baby boomers", too. I was #46 in the 1969 draft, during my first year in college. After a pretty bad car wreck, I was reclassified 4F in 1972. In 1976, I enlisted in the Navy, got picked up for OCS, and spent the last three years attached to the Marines as a Naval Gunfire Liaison Officer at Camp Pendleton, CA.

Do you still want to make any more insulting remarks about "draft dodgers" with whom you claim to have "no problem"? There are a lot of guys that I knew that just couldn't be drafted because of medical reasons identical to Dean's...are they "pricks", too?

And for the record, Ali spent some time in jail for his religious convictions. If he fits your definition of "draft-dodger", I'll fight back-to-back with anyone, anytime, with that kind of moral courage.

You know what pisses me off? I have a REAL problem with judgemental jerks with "keyboard courage" that probably never served a day in their life. I have a lot WORSE problem with guys that served only during peacetime and then feel entitled to dump on anyone that didn't serve.

But the guys that REALLY hack me off are the low-life bastards that went into the National Guard and then went AWOL while their fellow Americans were still dying in Vietnam.

One last shot and I'm done...the Chimp couldn't possibly live in the White House long enough to become one thousandth of the stature or bravery of our last legally elected President. You didn't see him avoiding funerals for fear of taking a bullet, and you never saw him avoid demonstrators. He also never backed down to those that tried to remove him from office. If he fits your definition of "draft-dodger", I'll fight back-to-back with anyone, anytime, with that kind of moral courage.

I wasn't even thinking of Dean when I posted that comment. I was actually thinking of Rush Limbaugh's draft exemption for a boil on his ass and Jack Kemp's exemption for shoulder problems (after which he went on to play a long career as a quarterback in the National Football League).

"One last shot and I'm done...the Chimp couldn't possibly live in the White House long enough to become one thousandth of the stature or bravery of our last legally elected President. You didn't see him avoiding funerals for fear of taking a bullet . . ."

I'm no fan of the Chimp, but I will point out that this statement is absolutely false. Bill Clinton never attended funerals of military personnel, either. Not out of fear or anything like that, but because Presidents historically never attend military funerals unless they know the family personally. That's a tradition that has lasted for decades in this country.

"I'll fight back-to-back with anyone, anytime, with that kind of moral courage . . ."

I don't doubt your convictions, but when it comes to draft-dodging I'd hardly consider Bill Clinton a man of moral courage. Muhammed Ali was a man of moral courage -- he told the world he wasn't going to fight in Vietnam, and he paid the price for his actions. Clinton never told anyone anything of the sort -- if anything, he was more underhanded about it because he accepted an ROTC scholarship but never fulfilled his obligation. Heck, I wouldn't have gone to Vietnam either -- but I sure as hell wouldn't have gone about doing it THAT way.

And I'll add that I voted for Clinton both times. I personally think President Clinton, on some moral level, ducked the draft just like Bush and Dean did.
I could never have done so, but, then, I couldn't wait to GED and get into the service. Plus, the Army was far more educational than my last two years of high school could ever have been
Still, I have friends who ducked and I certainly don't hold it against them.
My personal view, as the worst soldier ever to get an Honorable Discharge from the United States Army is this: I think Dean ducked. And I think I wouldn't be worthy of being the chauffeur to a troop like General Clark. Clark just appeals to me -- not just politically (certainly), but viscerally and emotionally, more than Dean does.
I have nothing personal against Governor Dean. But when the Michigan primary comes around on February 7, I will be proud to cast my vote for a soldier, a patriot and a man like Wesley Clark.
I cast my first vote for Jimmy Carter (another service academy grad). This is the first time I've ever been impatient for Voting Day to get here.
Clark has my vote. I trust him and can't wait to cast my ballot for him.
John
Finally, since I invoked both Carter (Annapolis) and Clark (West Point) in my post, I should note the Army-Navy game is coming up, so
GO ARMY! SINK NAVY!

I think it takes balls to stand up and say, "Yes, I dodge the draft. That war was wrong, the draft was unfair, and I wasn't about to die in some jungle, 10,000 miles away from my family; for some lying politician."

Regardless of what you think of the justification for whatever conflict, if you dodge the draft then that just means that somebody else has to go in your place. Most likely that somebody will be someone poorer than you (as the rich folk don't exactly have to worry about it in the first place). Draft dodgers didn't end Vietnam, protestors did. Veterans who went and came back and protested did.

My answer is a resounding NO!

One must always resist any type of slavery, a la the National Draft. The country shouldn't be able to force its general citizenry to kill and die for it without choice. It should be a conscious-choice.

Therefore, not only is there nothing wrong with "dodging" a draft, it happens to be the morally CORRECT thing to do.

Unless we were really fighting for our freedoms and for the survival of our way of life I think it is OK to dodge the draft. Especially now when the reason for the draft will be to fight PNAC's immoral wars.

I was OK with those who dodged the draft in the 60's even though I did not and went to war. You have to stand up for what you believe in and if it means that much to you then you should by all means avoid the draft.