What does "terrorism" mean and can a war on terrorism ever be won?

I had a discussion yesterday with a freeper at work about what he thought terrorim meant.

He said it was covert acts of violence.

This was in response to my analogy that fighting terrorism is like fighting blitzkriegs.

His explanation was that it was ok to attack or invade other countries if their countrymen (even if not sponsored by their governments) performed acts of violence against the U.S.

I asked what if a dane attacked the U.S. - should we invade Denmark. No, he said, because they are our ally.

I am going crazy...

on terrorism as if it were sponsored by a state.

It is a good excuse, for American addled minds, though. Gives us something to concentrate our anger on.

It is like the war on drugs. We have be losing this one for decades.

an act of violence carried out by those whom we oppose (Al-Qaeda presently). Those same acts carried out by those we support are called freedom fighters (Al-Qaeda in the 80s). And no, the war cannot be won; we cannot force people to like, or even tolerate, us through bombing campaigns.

I really hate how it's become fashionable to declare war on concepts, like "(some) Drugs" or "Terrorism" or what have you. The only way to kill a concept is to kill everyone who knows what the word means, and even then it probably won't work. How long will it take some enterprising young man to lick the proper species of toad and go "whooooaaaaa..."?

Terrorism is a Technique, Not an Enemy State
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=22515

"The Bubble of American Supremacy" is about to Burst, by George Soros
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=762708

By the way, his definition of terrorism as "covert acts of violence" is completely off the mark. Terrorist violence is designed to be flagrant, otherwise it doesn't provoke any terror. Duh! Maybe he means violence by covert agents, but that's not satisfactory either.

From your top link:

<snip>
'the "war" on terror should have remained what it initially was, a metaphor like the "war" on drugs. But instead of being harmless linguistic exaggeration to describe a broad campaign encompassing a range of political, economic and police counter-measures, it was narrowed down to real war and nothing else. '

you mean like the ones reagan waged all over latin america

or kissinger in Chile and Argentina

or the ones waged by the fbi against the civil rights movement

or the cia actions recently in venenzuela

or the types of actions taught at the SOA

need i go on?

1. There are no terrorist acts being perped against the US that are NOT instigated;

2. There isn't any, to begin with.

3. No, it isn't. We haven't been threated by anyone. 2 attacks in two hundred years by nutcases who are now dead doesn't constitute a spate of terrorism.

me thinks you have to do a little homework about all the attacks against us overseas.

I think your math needs work.

Even if you count 9-11 as one attack, and I wouldn't since it had multiple targets, this was the second attack on the World Trade Center. There there is the Murrah Building. And how do you count th anthrax attacks? What about the attacks that are stopped? How far back do you wish to go?

is like fighting a swarm of bees with a pistol. If you're lucky, you might nail one now and again, but the swarm will just keep on stinging.

and these bees don't live in a hive.

...the more agressive they get.

But you can keep it on the run to prevent massive attacks. Why this Bush war is so fucked up, all that is needed is a handfull of spec ops types to keep the terrorists looking over their shoulders.

They have no idea how to play fourth generation warfare. You basically have a field of WWI Battleship Admirals up against people using carrier tactics. It's pitiful, and what is more sad is there is no way you can explain to people that the answer to terrorism is in no way addressed by running a bunch of tanks into a foreign capital.

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

Terrorism is like murder - it's never going to go away.

That being said, terror today is nothing but a political banner you can hide behind as you work for other agendas. In the 40s and 50s it was communism. Now it's terrorism.

"The War on Terra" hides racism, supremism, an agenda for militarily aquired world domination, and religious singularity. And the greatest friend of these schemers, looters and murderers is the common American citizen who does not want to even hear why some peoples around the world have become pissed off enough to want to kill us. That is the PNAC's greatest accomplishment to date, and the public umbrella of invulnerability given to BushCo.

Because trust me, it is fighting us and if we don't, we'll wake up one day and have a city or two turned to dust.

terrorism: "...the systematic use of terror or unpredictable violence against governments, publics, or individuals to attain a political objective. Terrorism has been used by political organizations with both rightist and leftist objectives, by nationalistic and ethnic groups, by revolutionaries, and by the armies and secret police of governments themselves."

Terrorism is defined in the U.S. by the Code of Federal Regulations as: "..the unlawful use of force and violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives." (28 C.F.R. Section 0.85)

The FBI further describes terrorism as either domestic or international, depending on the origin, base, and objectives of the terrorists:
• Domestic terrorism is the unlawful use, or threatened use, of force or violence by a group or individual based and operating entirely within the United States or its territories without foreign direction committed against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives.
• International terrorism involves violent acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or any state, or that would be a criminal violation if committed within the jurisdiction of the United States or any state. These acts appear to be intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population, influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion, or affect the conduct of a government by assassination or kidnapping. International terrorist acts occur outside the United States or transcend national boundaries in terms of the means by which they are accomplished, the persons they appear intended to coerce or intimidate, or the locale in which the perpetrations operate or seek asylum.

The war on terrorism will be won right after we win the war on drugs.

And you knew someone was going to pull that out!

Technically, terrorism is any action, taken illegally, that causes fear in the person against whom the action was taken.

I could call you up in the middle of the night, every night, and whisper "I'm gonna getcha!" After a while, you'd be scared, a bit, if you had any sense at all. If I did it once it would be a stupid prank; it's a different story when I'm doing the same thing for months on end. You start wondering if someone really is gonna getcha. Throw in a few cars driving past your house at idle speed with menacing-looking people looking at you through the window, and you'd be scared shitless if you had any brains. That's terrorism too, but it would be a bit hard to prosecute someone on a terra charge if all you had against him were a string of 3am phone calls. Harassment yes, terrorism no.

Acts of violence are much easier to call as terrorism, but they're not the only acts of terrorism out there.

And I think these virus writers are terrorists, but so far the DHS isn't going after them.

Terrorism is fundamentally a covert action. Even if the end results are dramtically overt. We need to beef up the CIA instead of breaking it down like Cheney and Co. are doing. There can be no real "War" on Terrorism any more than there is a "War" on crime. Terrorism is like a crime, you just gotta get the detectives out there and sniff out the operation through connections, insiders, informants, chatter, undercover, interesting movement, etc..

Problem is, these operations usually take place outside the U.S., and the U.S. has pretty much decimated its trust and relationship with a lot of these countries.

It says less about the legality of such acts than it does to the pre eminent legitmacy of the US to be defined in the role of top cop.

Simply reducing geo-political struggle to a function of an emotional state is the height of anti-intellectualism.
This 'war' is not a war, but a metaphor of the same racially and class motivated 'fear' factory that has been used domestically to manipulate people to treat things 'public' with fear and hostility. --

The ruling classes are simply extending the program to international affairs.

The fundamentalist/fatalistic thinking that terrorists employ cannot ever be fought with weapons..

Viet Nam and Korea should have taught us THAT lesson.. We bailed on both of them because it finally dawned on us, that we could not win..

People who believe in their bones that they are right, will never give up..

We cannot kill them all..even though the fundies in our country would love it..

The old way of war fighting is ..O V E R ..

A ragtag bunch of religious zealots can board a plane, a bus, a car, a train, and as long as they are willing to die or be caught and imprisoned, they will do whatever they please.. We can never stop them 100% of the time.. For us to "win", that is what we must do.. They only have to succeed every so often, to keep us on edge and unnerved..

It would have to be cheaper all round to use a small fraction of what a war costs, to actually start addressiing some of the injustices that make these people so upset, that they would resort to this..

It seems that as long as countries occupy and bully other countries, this will never end..

Maybe Mom did know best.. All Moms say "Stay out of other people's business".."Keep your hands to yourself".. "Leave each other alone"..
"Share your toys".. "Play Nice"..

We can never "win" a war on terrorism...or on "drugs".. or on poverty..

We can defeat an army, navy.air force because we have superior armaments.. We are sorely lacking in interpersonal and global social skills, and it's killing us...and them..