How Do We Eliminate NeoConservatism?

Let's assume-for the sake of argument-that Dem Candidate X wins the general election. No fraud, no war to cancel out the election, no bad news at all.

Now, how do we go about eradicating neoconservatism as an ideology, so that this snake does not rise to bite our back end in 2008?

Do we push for a trail against Bush, et al, for treason?

Do we revoke the Patriot Act?

Where do we start, how far do we go, and when can we rest?

The new administration could hand the BFEE over to those who want to prosecute them for war crimes in Iraq. That would send a clear message. Of course, * would probably commit suicide before he'd occupy one of those luxurious cells in The Hague.

BUT IT FRICKING SOUNDS GOOD TO ME!!!!

and start the charges AFTER they no longerr have the ability to pardon everyone involved like Iran Contra.

It's a very elitist philosophy, and it's just about only the conservative intellectuals who know about it. I think one thing you could point out is that neocons tend to give one set of propaganda to intellectuals (like, say, /The Weekly Standard/ or /Commentary/), and another to the working class (Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh). People wouldn't like it so much if they knew they were being messed with.

Take back the language, sweetie. Take it back.

It's in there though. Read the part about the two different sets of propaganda again. A lot of the really dangerous philosophy tends to stay out of the radar because it isn't distributed to the general population.

I understand what you're saying (there was really no need to respond as you did), that anyone can participate in the treachery, but my point is that there are two groups - one architecting the treachery, and another led around by it. When you have a situation like this, the architects are an elite, a privelidged minority, manipulating the populace. Does the average dittohead know the philosophy of, say, Leo Strauss, or Irving Kristol, or as another poster mentioned, Nietzsche? Do they even know that they are neoconservatives, or what a neoconservative is?

One way to perhaps connect with the populace is to not assume someone is silly for initially percieving the meaning of something the same way we do. You know, the "PC Nazi" thing.

Neocons like to see themselves as intelectual elite, but their line of thinking is hardly elitist, nor philosophycal.

I mean, just look at the ideas they come up with. Essentially is nothing but apologies for their criminal behaviour.

"Those who are fit to rule are those who realize there is no morality and that there is only one natural right, the right of the superior to rule over the inferior".

"A political order can be stable only if it is united by an external threat, if no external threat exists, then one has to be manufactured."

"Perpetual deception of the citizens by those in power is critical because they need to be led, and they need strong rulers to tell them what's good for them."

"Peace leads to decadence. Perpetual war, not perpetual peace is what Straussians believe in."

(sources al over the web)

There IS a philosophical basis for a lot of the neocon blather you cited, actually, a familiar if indirect one - see Nietzsche's ideas about the Nobility ("Knighthood" in some translations; I don't know the German word.) A lot of neoconservatism's "elitism" is a perversion of Nietzsche's stated belief that there a some who are intrinsically fit to rule and others intrinsically fit only to be led. It's a strongly antidemocratic idea for Americans to be spouting, and there are other factions in relatively recent history who've adopted it (but I don't want to redline the Godiwn meter by naming them!). In comparing to the neocons, of course, it's important to recognize that Nietzsche posited no economic or ideological basis for Nobility - it was a metaphor for the greatness he admired in great people and a forlorn wish that more people could tap into that human capability for such greatness. It's overly utopian/messianic by the time he gets around to "Thus Spake Zarathustra," but it's valid.

It makes sense on a superficial level - there ARE smart people and there are dumb people (my roommate, ThirdWheelLegend, for example, is extremely dumb. JUST KIDDING, bro!) and that's a fact of life. What elitism means in the Nietzschian sense (and in the real friggin' world) is akin to meritocracy. Neoconservatism perverts this utterly by applying an ideological litmus to every possible qualification for leadership or even just basic human worth (Liberals are dishonest, liberals are dumb - need I go on channelling Coulter or do we get the point?).

So yeah, I agree with you 100% that pretty much everythiong a neocon pol will spout is an after-the-fact rationalization for a power-grab or suchlike, it's a bit disingenuous to suggest that their ideas are without genuine philosophical basis, even if they have warped their source material beyond recognition.

Sorry - didn't mean to turn this into a lecture...

On edit: Corrected one misspelling of Nietzsche. Ooops.

eom

But I do think it will die a natural death eventually. As the culture gets more and more progressive so too will political parties adapt out of necessity. In 40 years you won't recognize the GOP *and that's a good thing!* The best thing we can do is vote our conscious and stick to our ethics. History will take care of the rest.

As was Nazism.

Obviously, it won't occur to the same degree, but still, if an effort of some sort isn't made, neocons will resurface at some point as a viable party alternative.

After all, not even Hitler could destroy Nazism.

Unless you can point to some recognizable difference?

isn't national socialism or naziism.

Neoconservatism seems in large part to simply be a version of imperialism thinly veiled with capitalist rhetoric.

The greatest similarity between neoconservatism and fascism is in foreign policy, where aggressive pre-emption is seen by both neoconservatism and naziism as justifiable.

About differences...
Fascism and naziism both were movements that emerged with middle class support. Neoconservatism doesn't seem to derive its power from the middle class.

While neoconservatisms major proponents seem to be part of an elite political class that emerged from an educated middle class, its base for support seems to me to be _upperclass corporatists_.

Consequently, the fascist union of the state and corporations isn't controlled by the state, but rather in our circumstance the state is controlled by corporate interests ("the business of government is business" has become almost exclusively "the interests of government are the interests of business").

It is important that those who oppose neoconservatism (and I certainly do) realize that the right wing includes a number of frightening political ideologies and it seems that the Bush administration has adopted two or three of these.

Because fascism is a right wing form, it reflects MANY right wing ideas which are also present in these other movements.

Neoconservatism is BAD, but its only one of the bad ideologies that have ascended to power in the GOP. It is mostly concerned with foreign policy.

The American Right has, by design or by freak of historic coincidence, united capitalist greed, right wing authoritarianism, restorationism, and neoconservatism in a way which threatens traditional American values and global institutions.

The American Left needs to prevent the center of that amalgam from holding long enough to coalesce into something durable enough to discard its Republican trappings for the cloak of real tyranny. The 2004 elections are extremely important to this cause.

they will do themselves in with their own arrogance .
We must be on the prowl to verbally expose them,
every moment every day for who and what they really are .

all wailing and gnashing of teeth, etc...

That came from your own mind?

Did you go to Sunday school as a child? :)

18:2 He cried with a mighty voice, saying, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, and she has become a habitation of demons, a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean and hateful bird!

Now, if you understand that the United States is the New Babylon, the NeoBabylon, if you will, you might understand a little more clearly what we are doing, corrupting ourselves with cruel selfishness and destroying all about us in the process.

18:3 For all the nations have drunk of the wine of her impure passion, the kings of the earth committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth grew rich from the abundance of her luxury."

Really, who else could that be?

Omitting the rest of the sex stuff, it's just incendiary. I don't want you to faint even if it is a metaphor.

18:11 The merchants of the earth weep and mourn over her, for no one buys their merchandise any more;

With the plunging dollar, not much of all that foreign merchandise is affordable, is it?

Omitting list of goodies we like to buy.

18:14 The fruits which your soul lusted after have been lost to you, and all things that were dainty and sumptuous have perished from you, and you will find them no more at all.

We can't afford the rent, so imports are definitely out.

And this, this is the heart of it:

18:23 The light of a lamp will shine no more at all in you. The voice of the bridegroom and of the bride will be heard no more at all in you; for your merchants were the princes of the earth; for with your sorcery all the nations were deceived.

WE LIED. We believed lies. (Well, some of us did.) Our corporations, out of control, lied and lied and lied. And Americans died. And not one corporation wept.

And God doesn't love liars.

nope to the Sunday school .

we should ask this aswell. Trade is one area that sure as hell doesnt need to be liberalized. Down with NAFTA/WTO/FTAA Fair Trade NOW

PLEASE define the terms you're tossing about. I'd like to understand you but right now it's just massive gibberish.

The main points of neo-liberalism include:

1.

THE RULE OF THE MARKET. Liberating "free" enterprise or private enterprise from any bonds imposed by the government (the state) no matter how much social damage this causes. Greater openness to international trade and investment, as in NAFTA. Reduce wages by de-unionizing workers and eliminating workers' rights that had been won over many years of struggle. No more price controls. All in all, total freedom of movement for capital, goods and services. To convince us this is good for us, they say "an unregulated market is the best way to increase economic growth, which will ultimately benefit everyone." It's like Reagan's "supply-side" and "trickle-down" economics -- but somehow the wealth didn't trickle down very much.
2.

CUTTING PUBLIC EXPENDITURE FOR SOCIAL SERVICES like education and health care. REDUCING THE SAFETY-NET FOR THE POOR, and even maintenance of roads, bridges, water supply -- again in the name of reducing government's role. Of course, they don't oppose government subsidies and tax benefits for business.
3.

DEREGULATION. Reduce government regulation of everything that could diminsh profits, including protecting the environmentand safety on the job.
4.

PRIVATIZATION. Sell state-owned enterprises, goods and services to private investors. This includes banks, key industries, railroads, toll highways, electricity, schools, hospitals and even fresh water. Although usually done in the name of greater efficiency, which is often needed, privatization has mainly had the effect of concentrating wealth even more in a few hands and making the public pay even more for its needs.
5.

ELIMINATING THE CONCEPT OF "THE PUBLIC GOOD" or "COMMUNITY" and replacing it with "individual responsibility." Pressuring the poorest people in a society to find solutions to their lack of health care, education and social security all by themselves -- then blaming them, if they fail, as "lazy."
check out http://www.corpwatch.org/issues/PID.jsp?articleid=376

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

You can't eradicate an ideology. Once it's out of the box, it's out there.

Teaching ethics and history might help. Just a thought.

Once you have named the beast you have power over it.

bush; cheney; rummy; the membership of the PNAC; and murdoch should be sent to the hague. They can use their own money to defend themselves. All of the documents surrounding the incident should be made public. the trial should be public. just as secret alliances helped cause WWI the secret alliances bushco need to be made public.

Only the light of day can cleans this land.

sustainable.

I feel encouraged by Clark's comment that PNAC was an attempt to make Clinton look weak. It makes so much sense--

After Clinton went away, and by crook or by fluke they managed to take power in 2000, they were able to roll some of their radical new products out on the showroom floor. They seem shocked and deny that the wheels came off and the brakes didn't work.The truth is, they hadn't even considered whether the plans would actually work in the real world; they weren't meant to "work" but to merely give the impression that Clinton was weak. After all, he wasn't a bomb blasting show off, and refused to embark on any testosterone-fueled PNAC adventures (finding fulfillment elsewhere?)

All the Cabal look sexually dysfunctional to me. People will tire of this perversion and pursue something else. The Cabal will go into hiding for awhile, then reemerge as some friendly group identified with goodness. That's the way Nazis always do it.

Marketing over substance.

Are your whites whiter?

You are forgetting one minor event which makes all the war-mongering palatable to the masses: 9-11.

So Monica saved us from apocalypse? Right on, girl!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=855409&mesg_id=855409

Sorry... this will probably get deleted but I couldn't resist.

Have to breed faster than them.

i don't think you'll find much support for that here.

Just kidding!!!

First we have to decide what neoconservatism is. In my opinion there are two wings, one is Likudocentrism and the other is John Bircher Halliburtonism aka neocolonialism.

The Likudocentrists are almost exclusively Jewish-American and obsessed with Gnostic-like notions of the state of Israel and Judaism. Gnostic systems tend to massively 'empower' the individual but drive him/her into cold arrogance, immoralist thinking, extreme dualism, and other unbearable and ultimately selfdefeating behaviors. Power appears to be the deity of this variety of theology/ideology, but the adherent eventually discovers that Death is the actual godhead in it.

The Neocolonialists are mostly white Americans and generally less serious power worshippers with exception of the Cuban exile elite - they settle for money, often enough- but the present batch has also gotten far deeper into the Gnostic-like thinking that lies at bottom of the thing than the relatively peaceful state of the world warrants. They think the U.S. may be arriving at a point where enough social equality and such decrease in bigotry, authoritarian religion, and chosen knavery exists that they may finally lose this country, their by far most massive power base. It's been a threat since the days of FDR.

The Likudocentrists will be defeated when a serious I/P peace deal is put in place (likely to be deviated from but always returned to, that's the criterion) and some kind of renewal of Judaism- rejecting the Gnostic-like parts and interpretative traditions accumulated mostly in the Diaspora, especially Eastern Europe- takes hold.

The Neocolonialists have lost the war for 'the culture'- the prejudices of the people that favor them- in 1998 in the Lewinsky affair and are now losing the plurality of political sway- the goodwill attained, the economic bias still at work, and benefit of the doubt extended them- the 2004 elections. (They barely escaped structural disaster in 2000- W has opened them the economic power escape hatch.) They still control most of the U.S.'s wealth and will do so for about another generation at their present rate of diminishment of that control. I think we can expect most of the ones energetic enough and resistant to American historical trend (it won't be that many) to find new shelter, bases, and allies in Latin America.

The stakes in 2004 and 2006 are incredibly high for them while their odds with the American electorate are less than even, trending against them, and very hard to tilt. Some of the Democratic candidates appreciate that this very fundamental fact of American life is at stake, beyond incremental advances in social equality and financial comfort of the middle class. Others don't.

The Likudocentrists & the Neocolonialists (and I do like those terms) are the polar opposites of true Gnostics. Anyone who believes in a god that is outside of themselves, has someone who is above them and therefore in control of them, has nothing to do with Gnostism or at least what my personal understanding of what gnostism is. To me Jesus was the ultimate gnostic. There is nothing christlike about the Likuds and the Neos.

that should do it. Their premise relys on national control: the White House, and the tools to translate their ideology into global reality: the military, State and intel services.

ed for sp.

Restore the Fairness Doctrine, and enforce the existing remaining statues for equal time for personal attacks.

Reimpose the station ownership limits and break up the media conglomerates.

Require organizations which even mention the name of candidates and elected officials to adhere to strict reporting requirements for their income.

Finally, we need to go after people like Tom DeLay where they live. We need to defeat them, or at least make their political lives miserable.

On the ground, this is publishing and media. Books, thinktanks that publish working papers, and newspapers to make the argument in public for social justice.

The neocon's have wisely done this to get where they are... not that they are wise in any other way.

Internet is good, radio, etc... turning out the bushevik ideology is a lifetime's work for all of us. To gain a mulitplier effect, those can need to publish the full argument end to end, over and over like the cato institute does here: http://www.cato.org/pubs/handbook/hb108/hb108-17.pdf

the neo-cons are not smart, that's for sure.

Revoke the Patriot Act

Revoke all of the Ashcroft insanity

Put the EPA back in business

Expose PNAC

Reinstate social safety nets

Most importantly, each time a bush thrust is reversed, be honest with
the public and tell them WHY these are being revesed!

You're NOT going to change neo-cons; but we can enlighten the public as to just how BAD the current admin is. It is the swing voters that need convincing.

O8)

the neo-cons are not smart, that's for sure.

Revoke the Patriot Act

Revoke all of the Ashcroft insanity

Put the EPA back in business

Expose PNAC

Reinstate social safety nets

Most importantly, each time a bush thrust is reversed, be honest with
the public and tell them WHY these are being revesed!

You're NOT going to change neo-cons; but we can enlighten the public as to just how BAD the current admin is. It is the swing voters that need convincing.

O8)

Ann says liberals need to be executed to show that they can be killed too.

Why let liberals have all the fun?

and investigate the hell out of them, just like they did with Clinton. (The ones remaining in office, that is).

Make Hillary attorney general, and give her complete license to throw all their republican asses in jail.

Put the ones who are out of office on trial, too. Throw the book at all of them.

Funny thing....I loathed Nixon, but was kind of relieved that he did not actually go to jail. That was out of respect for the office, not the man.

This time, I do not care. Let us prepare the cells for the lot of them.

Just the nomination would have neo-con heads exploding all over the country! All we'd have to do is dig shallow graves and push them in!

I could just see the massive offshore mobility of the neo-cons, forget the cells, the fear of being actually tossed into a hole with their rat friends would terrify them beyond my wildest dreams!

Thank you for this wonderful visual!!!!!!!!!

:bounce:

It's called 'karma'.

Live by the sword, die by it.

Only refer to them as the unamerican, antipatriotic, megasocialistic, apolcalyptic, antichristian, pot lickers they are.
These are the people who are dissatisfied with our country and want to take us back to the 19th century.

Have the leading Neocons Elites tried by the UN for crimes against humanity.

As we all know the Repubs are totalley focused on big corps and cheap labor. Let's point out that being hated around the world for the neocon preemptive onslaughts hurts business. I know ,I know the repubs are loath to look further than the surface on any issues but I think if they understood how the Neocon party is hurting their party they may join us in putting these people in jail.

As suspects of terrorism for the possible role they played in 9/11?

First, we lock them in a military prison, and forget about them for awhile. Let them see what it is like to lose your every civil right, and hopefully give them a better appreciation for the Constitution. After a short period, overturn the Patriot Act on the aniversary of 9/11 and transfer the criminals to a Federal Prison somewhere painful where they'll make new friends and meet interesting people.

Next, open up all documents and sealed files pertaining to Reagan, Bush1 and Bush2.

Then, again on the aniversary of 9/11, release the information to the public detailing all the atrocities performed by these criminals, turn the public against them for evermore.

Finally, as seems to be the consensus, turn them over to the World Court. That would be in their best interest, really. After everything that these Fascist Thugs have done to the United States was made public, they wouldn't stand a chance in a domestic court.

That should take care of the deal for a few generations, at least. :)

If Clark becomes president, the neocons won't have much of a leg to stand on. They won't be able to shout about the Dems lack of patriotism. It would be laughable. Meanwhile, plans like Clark's new turnaround plan at clark04.com which gives us state by state numbers on how many peoples lives will be saved by new environment regulations, how many more people will have insurance, how much families' standard of living will rise -- many people who've been shouting next to the neocons will start to think that this all sounds like a good idea. They'll forget why they were shouting. And the few remaining will grow to be ignored.

:toast:

Neo-cons never go away. And they get what they want. They will do anything, and I mean ANYTHING, to make sure they get what they want.
Consider 9/11, consider Wellstone's death, consider the lies leading to the Iraq war...

What is it? Where did it come from? Who belongs to the Neocon movement? What are their goals?

Explain why it is an unAmerican, fascist movement that has no place in this country or this century. Again, expose all the players and make sure they never get involved in our government again.

Of course this isn't easy without the media. We need to elect a President who would take up this cause, forcing the media to report it.

So far the Iraq invasion has been a failure for them. Maybe this will signal their twilight, maybe people will begin to realize that neocon ideology isn't going to work in the real world.

are irrelevant. What they have done is to form coalitions with other blocs that has enabled them to extend their grip as far as they have. These coalitions are with the fundamental religions that endorse them and with associations like the National Rifle Association. I think if Dean becomes the front runner, their grip on the NRA will lessen. I don't know what to do about the religions except to hope that the leadership changes to a more moderate ones that will fall less in line with those think tanks that have their grip on them.