Charlie Rangel on Gore/Dean..."I counted one black guy."

-snip-
He also poked fun at Dean for getting hardly any black supporters to his announcement yesterday, even though it was held in a majority-black neighborhood.

"From what I gather, Howard Dean brought all of his black supporters with him to the announcement. I counted one black guy," joked Rangel, who watched the announcement on television.

Standing next to Dean at the endorsement was Councilman Bill Perkins, who is black - but the vast majority of the audience consisted of white reporters and politicos.

Rangel, who has endorsed Wesley Clark, suggested Gore was trying to use Harlem as a prop for his appearance with Dean without bothering to consult with - or spend time with - the people who live there.
-snip-

http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/13081.htm

ON EDIT: How come no one commented on returnable's post...its too funny.

returnable (457 posts) Wed Dec-10-03 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
4. At least Gore...



...refrained from holding up one of those "African-Americans for Dean" signs



From a Dean event in South Carolina:

"While the address was billed as a major speech on race, only a handful of the audience members were black. The pre-printed signs, 'African-Americans for Dean,' were held by white supporters."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0312080163dec08,1,5661319.story

I have never seen an interview with the guy where he sounds smart.

or anywheres else.

Because he can count???????? :shrug:

You should take a look at his bio


It begins:

"Congressman Charles B. Rangel is serving his seventeenth term as the Representative from the 15th Congressional District, comprising East and Central Harlem, the Upper West Side, and Washington Heights/Inwood. Congressman Rangel is the Ranking Member of the Committee on Ways and Means, Chairman of the Board of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee and Dean of the New York State Congressional Delegation."

Unlike a certain draft dodger I could name.
John
As has been said "Anybody but Bush." I will vote for someone besides Bush.

You are losing credibility real fast!

For many who now call themselves Dean supporters--Al Gore represented prior to yesterday the DLC. Tweety is now a pretty good guy. Bill Cristol is smart. Rangel is dumb. Frank Lunz is a highly objective pollster.

The New York Post?

Gore was dissed by the DLC and has now dissed them back by NOT endorsing the Clark/Kerry DLC picks.

backing Dean, but maybe you are on to something.

And sees the Dean campaign as his vehicle.

:hi:

When Al Sharpton was the darling? (until last night)

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

and can articulate them better than most in the party leadership.

He always makes a lot of sense to me.

F that.

Are you a freeper?

..and I always enjoy seeing him on the talking heads shows.

He doesn't take crap from anyone!

and this is just more political spin.

They were using a event that had already been scheduled.

Terms in Congress. That's a loyal, loving constituency he has there in Harlem.

It has been gentrified.

NYPost again. have to wonder about the Right wing sources the Clarkies typically seek.

What does it say about Dean that he needed Gore's help?

There's nothing in Dean himself apparently....

Dean has more minority support than all of them?

Need Gore? Like any of them would reject such an endorsement.

on Rush AND Michael Medved yesterday. And isn't it funny that Koppel would insiuate the same thing?

Have YOU been there lately?

Goddamighty!

You would think he wouldn't have to lie about it.

You don't really think Clinton has an office in the ghetto, do you?

to stick it 2'em.

I'm not livin in a fantasy world. I know Clinton wasn't all that to the black folk. I met a lady from Africa, and African black woman who is a citizen and she voted for Bush. She said I don't know what the black americans think they are doing by supporting the Democratic party and Clinton. They haven't done anything for you. That is why I voted for Bush. Man I was shocked out of my mind.

But you know she was right.

We're not going to make that mistake again. So when Dean started the whole mess then it was time to get down with it. See what he was really all about. Now that I've seen, I'm not buyin' it. Nor am I buyin he's liberal. Nor am I buying that all of you who support him are liberal. You guys think he is liberal and leading the party in the to the left. Don't fool yourself he's not going all that far and I'm confident he won't even get left of center.

Yeah, I'll bet she showed them liberals by voting for bush.

Is that what you plan to do?

has such hate for the democratic party.

What are issues that you think resonate the most with black Americans right now...

Really, do yourself a favor. STOP DIGGING.

. . .that many people that claim to support the Black community always want to think of us a poor and in the Ghetto. . .I am not surprised that some on this board would just assume Harlem is one big ghetto.

chased all the poor out with their high rents.

You don't know what you are talking about. My father deliberately set up his practice in the inner city, and opened his home to economically disadvantaged children of color and provided social and educational opportunities and professional connections to more than one generation of troubled youth. When he died the city built a park in his memory, so keep you snot-nosed asssumptions to yourself.

And look in the mirror.

Who else here said "F Rangel" just because he put up a fight for Clark? You got someone else in another thread (a Dean supporter) calling Andrew Young an Uncle Tom for endorsing Clark.

I don't see that sort of ugliness in the mirror unless wyndycyty somehow happens to be in it.

And I, for one, am HAPPY that the area has been revitalized and made more attractive. I love visiting now. And yes, I love Starbucks! She pays $100 more in rent than she did 4 years ago which is damn good for all the modernization and rehabbing of the units in her blook.

Yes, some people have been priced out of the region, but that's what happens everywhere. I'm from the Chicago area and the same thing happened to the Near West side when the new United Center was built. At least NY does have some rent-controlled units which is more than I can say for Chicago.

What do you want me to do, put quotes around it?

The point was Clinton's office isn't exactly in a economically depressed area.

You should choose your words more carefully.

But you have certainly betrayed your ignorance and your racism.

I wonder how much time Charlie actually spends in his old neighborhood? The DC lifestyle doesn't allow much time for that nonsense, does it?

That's a new one.

and was promised head of Ways and Means -- so the rumor goes.

It just shows your BLIND DEVOTION to Dean, that a great, wonderful leader of our party - who just happens to support someone else - is now cursed at, called a flunkie.

This is really disgusting.

...refrained from holding up one of those "African-Americans for Dean" signs :hi:



From a Dean event in South Carolina:

"While the address was billed as a major speech on race, only a handful of the audience members were black. The pre-printed signs, 'African-Americans for Dean,' were held by white supporters."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0312080163dec08,1,5661319.story

Good get. . .did you make it to Frankie Z's last night?

Picked up a couple of the buttons, too. You were right - they look great!

. . .I'll be there next week.

Soup!

A few newbies were there last night, and also got some good stories from some petitioners. I'll PM ya...

And he requested not one - but TWO black roommates while he was at Yale.
Sheeet.

Represent!

Must I get rid of all CDs by AA artists?

When he mentioned basketball in Harlem...that was a no-no. sarcasm

See white guys have to remember a really, really long list of things they can and cannot say in from of blacks. At least according to some DUers.

They want a color-blind society by saying candidates must act black enough to get their vote. Makes zero sense to me.

That's all.

If Dean is one of the ten 50-year-old white guys in America who like Wyclef, good for him. Otherwise, I think he was sucking up.

Dean is bad because he requested black roomates at college.

Racism runs pretty deep in some DUers.

The issue is not that Dean is a white guy from Vermont. Hell, I'm a white guy from West Virginia. It's that Dean's statements come across as if he constantly engaging is some upper-class liberal "experimentation."

Having to point out that he wanted to live with black people at Yale makes him sound like the white people who wanted to go to nightclubs in Harlem in the 30s for the "experience." I honestly get the impression that he views blacks as a foreign country whose culture interests him.

Compare this to Bill Clinton who always appeared most comfortable in black churches and, in fact, gave his best speech in a black church.

And, frankly, God bless him if he loves the Fugees, but my mouth fell open when he said Wyclef's song was his favorite.

Wyclef is very talented plus he too was against the Iraq War, what's not to like about him? As far as your second paragraph goes, it is insane and rediculous.

But his demo is not exactly rich white men over the age of 50. I mean, it could be true. But it sounded no less bizarre than if Bush had said he was really into the new Outkast CD.

But of course you'd still be attacking him regardless of what song he listed as his fav.

Next you'll be bashing him for wearing earth tones...

New England blue-blooded snoot.

Like only rich people can appreciate classical music.

He has two teenagers...and likes some of their music, so what?????? He actually plays the guitar.

. . .Clinton did not need to drag anyone with him.

You attack him when he doesn't have enough blacks around his campaign, or in his state. Then you attack him when he tried to have a diverse experience in college. Other than him becoming black over night what could he possibly do to please you?

What proof do you have that he treat's blacks as a science experiment. If he chose "white" on his application for dorm rommates would you then call him a racist, trying to avoid sleeping in the same room with blacks?

Clinton grew up in the south. Dean didn't. Clinton isn't running.

Well, I guess I do. But not it's not an issue I lose sleep over.

I view politics differently. I enjoy the theatre aspect of it. And Dean's connection (or lack thereof) with black voters is fascinating to me. Because it's not an issue that is going to just sort itself out, because it seems to cut to the very core of who he is - a rich white guy from the Hamptons set.

I am sure he cares very very much about the experience of black Americans. I am sure he wants to improve their lives as much as he wants to improve anyone's lives. But that "spark" that some white candidates have with black audiences just isn't there. Gore - to his credit - has it. Clinton had it in great abundance.

What I find most interesting/amsuing is how hard Dean is trying to get that spark. But I just don't think it's something you learn. The best analogy I can think of is that one dad in the neighborhood who tried to talk to his son's friends on their terms and just . . can't . .do it. (Fine, I'm thinking of Eugene Levy in American Pie. Sue me).

You think the bashers are looking for some right answer from Dean... when the fact is what they are looking for is simply the next excuse to attack and bash the guy who is beating their candidate.

Understand this... there is NOTHING Dean can do that these desperate assholes won't attack. Because their attacks are based on one, and only one thing, the fact Dean is beating their candidate.

and he felt the need to announce that why? That is really pathetic!



retyred in fla
“good night paul, wherever you are”
So I read this book

If he reaches out to the AA community, they flip out and accuse him of pandering. If he make no special outreach to the AA community they'll bash him for being a racist or ignoring this important group.

It is not racism as much as it is just desperation. Don't make the mistake of thinking that there is anything Dean can do that the Clark Corps bashers won't attack. As long as Dean is beating their guy, Dean is evil and they'll bash everything he says or does.

It's not just Clark supporters who have issues with Dean.

. . .as a Clark supporter I think it is important for DUers to know that the concerns are shared by others.

Though he seems to have vanished from the planet for the last three months.

And frankly, I like Dean. I could vote for him.

His supporters are really starting to piss me off however. I don't need to be psychoanalyzed each time I discuss Dean. Every discussion degenerates into discussions "motivations" and "agendas."

Fuck that. I'm a political junkie. I have no agenda other than getting a Dem in the White House in 2004. If we nominate the corpse of Bob Crane, I'd vote for it.

there's the odd Edwards or Kerry supporter joining in the bashing, but it is overwhelmingly Clark Corps.

And the Clark bots all seem to spew the exact same shit on the same days on different boards... they just barf the talking points back up like some dittoheads.

I'm an Edwards supporter with Clark as my back-up in case Edwards doesn't make to the PA primary in May.

I don't mean to tread on anyone's feelings when I say that I have issues with Dean, his record and his persona. For one thing, to ME, he comes across as a Grade-A prick. He rubs me the wrong way, not anywhere as bad as Bu$h does, but it's a matter of degree and not kind. They're cut from the same personality cloth so to speak. Dean will get my vote in the general election should the media succeed in making us think he is a forgone conclusion, but it won't be happily. A nose-holding event to be sure.

in the African-American community and it is beginning to pay off. The Gore endorsement will generate strongly in African-American communities because Gore is popular among this group. He did better as far as turnout than even Clinton in 2000. Dean also has attended events attended by African-Americans with many of his prominent supporters of color including Jesse,Jr.

This is just the latest example of sour grapes on behalf of others because Gore decided to endorse Dean. They should try and get over it.

yet the #1 focus of your threads. Bad enough you quote the post this time, worse you didn't abide by DU rules in doing it.

But, but, you LIKE Dean. You like him so much you'll violate DU rules in sharing smear pieces.

The pre-printed signs, 'African-Americans for Dean,' were held by white supporters."

how can u complain about the source when your candidate hands them ammo like this!!

heeheehee

and frankly I doubt these kinds of claims unless there's a picture.


But the Clark Corps can't stand that their guy did not get the Gore endorsment, so they're attacking anything they can.

who needs Republicans? Rove gets paid to say shit like this. What does Rangel get out of it?

I like Rangel ok, and he has every right to endorse whomever he wants. But race-baiting?!@ Jeez

Seems like bashing Dems has become a bipartisan sport. We don't deserve to win.

too bad he had to pull the race card.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

I understand that it's also used when convenient by certain white liberals, especially when people of color aren't doing what those same white liberals want them to do.

DTH

it's like when they call eachother "nigger".
Dean has a lot of black support and it's ingenuous
and untruthful for Charlie to say that Dean doesn't
have that support.

I don't dispute that Dean has a lot of support among certain black leaders. I also don't dispute that SEIU, the most racially diverse union, supports Dean.

But the reason Rangel's statement stings is because it's at least partially true, or appears that way. Next time, people should work harder at ensuring community turnout at such an important event. ESPECIALLY if you politicize it by holding it in Harlem in the first place.

DTH

Is he politicizing the event?

Come on, people, you've been making it WAY too easy for me this morning. ;-)

DTH

. . .that Dean accepted Jesse Jackson Jr.'s endorsement in S.C., not in the 2nd District of Illinois which is Jackson's district. . .interesting pattern.

It would be stupid to get that endorsement in a state with the primary so far off.

But again, we know Dean can do nothing right.... you'll bash him regardless. So what is the point of trying to convince you otherwise?

Your mind is already closed and made up.

maybe they had jobs to go to.

Especially since I didn't even use the word "they" at all, much less in the despicably racist context you're trying to assign to me.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

DTH

Many apologies for challenging Charlie Rangel's statement
as he watched Dean's appearance on TV.

It's about your shameful attempt to smear me using despicable codespeak.

Nice to see you so unrepentant and unapologetic, though; it speaks volumes.

DTH

and sad to see it used on a democratic board. one can disagree or argue with what someone is saying, but hate that term being used.

I don't think we have to stick our heads in the sand.

though not you in particular.

is the most ethnically diverse union. It has endorsed Dean. Dean has the support of many in the congressional Black Caucus.

Rangel is playing politics (and really the race card if you think about it). Dean isn't his guy. Go figure.

And it's not a game.

who has a race.

Ever wonder why institutionalized racism exists today?

Get a whole LOT more kids killed in the name of Bush's war?

Have Sharpton paint Clark as Anti-Black or have the entire field call your guy racially insensitive and see how long it takes to gain the confidence of African Americans.

------------------
Restoring the American Community
The following remarks as prepared were delivered this afternoon by Governor Howard Dean in Columbia, South Carolina:

In 1968, Richard Nixon won the White House. He did it in a shameful way -- by dividing Americans against one another, stirring up racial prejudices and bringing out the worst in people.

They called it the "Southern Strategy," and the Republicans have been using it ever since. Nixon pioneered it, and Ronald Reagan perfected it, using phrases like "racial quotas" and "welfare queens" to convince white Americans that minorities were to blame for all of America's problems.

The Republican Party would never win elections if they came out and said their core agenda was about selling America piece by piece to their campaign contributors and making sure that wealth and power is concentrated in the hands of a few.

To distract people from their real agenda, they run elections based on race, dividing us, instead of uniting us.

But these politics do worse than that -- they fracture the very soul of who we are as a country.

It was a different Republican president, who 150 years ago warned, "A house divided cannot stand," and it is now a different Republican party that has won elections for the past 30 years by turning us into a divided nation.

In America, there is nothing black or white about having to live from one paycheck to the next.

Hunger does not care what color we are.

In America, a conversation between parents about taking on more debt might be in English or it might be in Spanish, worrying about making ends meet knows no racial identity.

Black children and white children all get the flu and need the doctor. In both the inner city and in small rural towns, our schools need good teachers.

When I was in medical school in the Bronx, one of my first ER patients was a 13-year-old African American girl who had an unwanted pregnancy. When I moved to Vermont to practice medicine, one of my first ER patients was a 13-year-old white girl who had an unwanted pregnancy.

They were bound by their common human experience.

There are no black concerns or white concerns or Hispanic concerns in America. There are only human concerns.

Every time a politician uses the word "quota," it's because he'd rather not talk about the real reasons that we've lost almost 3 million jobs.

Every time a politician complains about affirmative action in our universities, it's because he'd rather not talk about the real problems with education in America - like the fact that here in South Carolina, only 15% of African Americans have a post-high school degree.

When education is suffering in lower-income areas, it means that we will all pay for more prisons and face more crime in the future.

When families lack health insurance and are forced to go to the emergency room when they need a doctor, medical care becomes more expensive for each of us.

When wealth is concentrated at the very top, when the middle class is shrinking and the gap between rich and poor grows as wide as it has been since the Gilded Age of the 19th Century, our economy cannot sustain itself.

When wages become stagnant for the majority of Americans, as they have been for the past two decades, we will never feel as though we are getting ahead.

When we have the highest level of personal debt in American history, we are selling off our future, in order to barely keep our heads above water today.

Today, Americans are working harder, for less money, with more debt, and less time to spend with our families and communities.

In the year 2003, in the United States, over 12 million children live in poverty. Nearly 8 million of them are white. And no matter what race they are, too many of them will live in poverty all their lives.

And yesterday, there were 3,000 more children without health care - children of all races. By the end of today, there will 3,000 more. And by the end of tomorrow, there will be 3,000 more on top of that.

America can do better than this.

It's time we had a new politics in America -- a politics that refuses to pander to our lowest prejudices.

Because when white people and black people and brown people vote together, that's when we make true progress in this country.

Jobs, health care, education, democracy, and opportunity. These are the issues that can unite America.

The politics of the 21st century is going to begin with our common interests.

If the President tries to divide us by race, we're going to talk about health care for every American.

If Karl Rove tries to divide us by gender, we're going to talk about better schools for all of our children.

If large corporate interests try to divide us by income, we're going to talk about better jobs and higher wages for every American.

If any politician tries to win an election by turning America into a battle of us versus them, we're going to respond with a politics that says that we're all in this together - that we want to raise our children in a world in which they are not taught to hate one another, because our children are not born to hate one another.

We're going to talk about justice again in this country, and what an America based on justice should look like -- an America with justice in our tax code, justice in our health care system, and justice in our hearts as well as our laws.

We're going to talk about making higher education available to every young person in every neighborhood and community in America, because over 95% of people with a 4-year degree in this country escape poverty.

We're going to talk about rebuilding rural communities and making sure that rural America can share in the promise and prosperity of the rest of America.

We're going to talk about investing in more small businesses instead of subsidizing huge corporations, because small businesses create 7 out of every 10 jobs in this country and they don't move their jobs overseas -- and they can help revitalize troubled communities. We're going to make it easier for everyone to get a small business loan wherever they live and whatever the color of their skin.

We're going to talk about rebuilding our schools and our roads and our public spaces, empowering people to take pride in their neighborhood and their community again.

We're going to talk about building prosperity that's based on more than spending beyond our means, a prosperity that doesn't force us to choose between working long hours and raising our children, a prosperity that doesn't require a mountain of debt to sustain it, a prosperity that lifts up every one of us and not just those at the very top.

The politics of race and the politics of fear will be answered with the promise of community and a message of hope.

And that's how we're going to win in 2004.

At the Democratic National Convention in 1976, Congresswoman Barbara Jordan asked, "Are we to be one people bound together by common spirit sharing in a common endeavor or will we become a divided nation?"

We are determined to find a way to reach out to Americans of every background, every race, every gender and sexual orientation, and bring them -- as Dr. King said -- to the same table of brotherhood.

We have great work to do in America. It will take years. But it will last for generations. And it begins today, with every one of us here.

Abraham Lincoln said that government of the people, by the people and for the people shall not perish from this earth. But this President has forgotten ordinary people.

That is why it is time for us to join together. Because it is only a movement of citizens of every color, every income level, and every background that can change this country and once again make it live up to the promise of America.

So, today I ask you to not just join this campaign but make it your own. This new era of the United States begins not with me but with you. United together, you can take back your country.

http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/002565.html

Listen to yourself!

i want to be the candidate of the guys with confederate flags in their pick-up trucks.

that Gore should not run. I have discounted him and his opinions since. Sorry, but I have never seen as much back stabbing as a small group of democrat DLCers used to rid the party of a Gore run in 2000. It disgusted me. Rangle can go to hell.

it's all about face time. He personally is devoid of any real leadership or ideas, so he has to try to upstage the Dean/Gore event. Anything so that Rangel can get his face on T.V.

too much crying going on =)

Really getting sick of bashers and flamers who have nothing to offer but trolls and dem bashing.

Wasn't it enough that Gore was kind enough to throw in the racist stereotype of having played basketball there on his last visit???

I would think that would cover it...

my kids are white, they play basketball. If they said so would they be racist?

This thread is turning into our very own little DU race war and incredibly the guy who got a huge percentage of the AA vote in the last election is being called a racist. Your post stinks.

Were your kids on a stage in Harlem trying to pander to an African American crowd? I must've missed them....

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

i got ignored too, woot! =D

met with open arms by objective Dean supporters.

Charlie Rangel is a hero to the people he represents. All of you saying F, Rangel just remember, you want his voters to support Dean and not stay home. Well, you've given all of them a reason to stay @ home. PLUS, you've proven to me that Dean is not the candidate because you can't go into a discussion without being rude and telling people to GO TO HELL or to FUCK OFF.

None of the issues here are something that are being recognized by Black folks, we are bringing it to your attention and you are telling us to FUCK OFF. You are proving my point. If Dean and you guys would have been "real" from the start then it would have been o.k. Not to mention you're putting a whole nother spin to what it means to be liberal. I thought liberal was inclusiveness. I'm not feeling it here. Well, now the 'real' is showing and it isn't pretty.

Just keep going where you are going.

. . .until some one tells us what to be concerned about. Now that Dean and his people who carry carrying "African Americans For Dean" signs (even though they are not African American) are reaching out to us we should support him <sarcasm>

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

because he doesn't like Dean and wanted to attack him

the people he represents says that he wants to have a dialogue about race as a part of his platform and Rangel says ok I only counted 1 black guy and you wanna say it is an attack.

PHULEEZ HAVE YOU LOST YOUR MIND

That is his town and the people he represents and you wanna open a dialog about race but you don't include the people from the black neighborhood you are visiting....


Isn't that just a little messed up?

B 4 REAL!

YOU HAVE WHITE PEOPLE HOLDING AFRICAN AMERICANS FOR DEAN SIGNS? That's like me holding a WHITE FOLKS FOR KKK SIGN!!!

Sorry to tell have to tell you, but Howard Dean is pretty huge out here in Oakland's black community. There's a lot of support for Dean, and because he wasn't counting the people on stage with him he's ignoring the black community? Come on.

For Rangel, it's nothing but a race card being used to attack someone he doesn't like.

Now, where are the blacks with Clark? I haven't seen enough blacks on the Clark stage :eyes:

by the way...white folks were holding AA for Dean signs? While I agree that would be utterly stupid, I'd love to see some proof.

The link is a "sign-up" to the Chicago Tribune which I don't feel like doing.

Is there proof of that? And was there really only one black person in the room?

Lies.

AA 4 Clark signs.

If you go back to my posts, even when the whole CF thing was going on. I said it wasn't a big deal. If Dean had just kept his mouth shut and moved on he wouldn't be in this situation. Like I've said before. The CF scares me. But I know we need the bubbas to win the south. Yes Dean is right we have the same issues. But don't expect if you pander to one the other isn't gonna come along and visa versa.
It doesn't work that way. Dean didn't screw up until he tried to continue to make a point. That is when it gets to be an insult.

I don't konw if anyone here will ever understand what I am talking about. I have been fair to dean. I have not summed up his campaign. Further more my only problem with the endorsement was that Gore did it before any votes were cast.

That is why there are white and black churches.

Now if and when Clark does the black thing I'll have the same criticism. You don't need any Clark for AA signs if you go to the churches and talk to the people. Kucinich went to talk to the black folk in Detroit. You don't pander and make signs to prove your point. I know for damn sure you wouldn't catch an AA carring an AA for anyone sign. It is embarrasing and I would consider it an insult. I'm pretty sure me standing up there with my "chocolatey smooth" skin will say all it needs to say..

Truly, if he endorsed Clark, would your opinion be diammetrically opposed to the one you espouse now?

By the way, do you have any proof of white folks holding African-Americans for Dean signs? And why is it that YOU are able to criticize other blacks for holding those signs?

How DARE he!!!

DTH

and Rangel supports Clark

2 PLUS 2 EQUALS 4

And I'm sick of some of the white liberals on this predominantly white board dissing people of color for speaking their minds and representing their communities.

DTH

Jesse Jackson, and JJ Jr., Alice Walker, Maxine Waters, Cynthia McKinney, etc., etc....none of these people have suggested a new draft.

But, I was wondering DTH, what is your ethnicity?

And I've been fighting for racial justice for all people of color for 15 years.

As for the draft, see my post #171, below, for more on Rangel. His proposal is radical, but IMO it is consistent with representing his community. He's not suggesting poor black folks be drafted. He's suggesting that if more rich white folks were drafted, there wouldn't be any war to begin with.

DTH

but white folks don't care about that kind of stuff anyway...it didn't stop Bush's attack, it wouldn't have stopped Clinton's attack in Kosovo. Rangel knows that the Democratic party machine is the one that sent all those black kids to Vietnam.

and taking them for granted... typical status quo DLC shit.

Why does Clark hate black folks so much?

Must be why his supporters keep attacking Dean for reaching out to these folks... they want a candidte who ignores these folks, right?

defending another Clark guy who bashes Dean.

Care to link to a picture of this Dean crowd with no black folks in it??

Bet not.

hell based on his actual behavior? I thought it was disgraceful that certain DLCers including Rangle came out in public and said Gore was a looser and shouldn't run. Based on that fact alone Rangel can kiss my ass to the end of his career. I don't give a shit what color he is since I feel the same way about the white guys who did the same.

won GA! If you can't win your own state you shouldn't be running.
You can't win over your own people? You can't win over the people you represented in the Senate?

PUHLEEZ

I guess they were right, eh?

Funny to see all these Clarkies who verify Nader's assertions.

I never saw any Clarkie say Nader was a worthless b*st*rd who was wrong on everything. These discussions get so heated that we can't have reasonable discussions........

Your mitigating of the Nader-hatred, notwithstanding.

but don't let that stop the Clark supporters from showing their true dem hating colors.

Maybe if Rangel himself better represented the community he is supposed to lead, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

. . .it sounds rich!

I'm gonna :nuke:

Maybe if Rangel himself better represented the community he is supposed to lead, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

So are you saying that for Rangel to adequately represent his district, he must shut up and support Dean? Please tell me you don't actually believe what you are saying.

but I see why you think that way

First off, Charlie Rangel and his petty sniping attacks on Dean and Gore are most certainly not "the issues and concerns of Black America." And what people here, not just Dean supporters, dislike about Rangel is his asinine opportunistic Dem bashing DLC shit. So how is that an important issue to black folks? Are you saying black votes hate the non-DLC democrats as much Rangel does?

Your attempt to act as if attacking Rangel is the same thing as attacking the issues important to black Americans is wholly dishonest and unfortunately this type of dishonest smear is par for the course for the Clark supporters, like Rangel.


"PLUS, you've proven to me that Dean is not the candidate because you can't go into a discussion without being rude"

Following that logic the Clark Corps bashers proved Clark is not the candidate back before Clark ever decided he was a democrat. Nobody has been more vicious in attacking other dems, specifically Dean, than the Clark supporters on DU and it is sickening to see that mentality being intentionally spread out into the media by other Clark Corps assholes like Rangel.


"None of the issues here are something that are being recognized by Black folks,"

The issues Dean is addressing are very much the issues that resonate with the black community, like jobs, healthcare, education etc. And that's the reason you Clark cowards are attacking Dean on race issues, because you see it as a weak spot specifically because Dean is reaching out to minority groups honestly rather than pandering to them and maintaining this black vs. white mentality.


"we are bringing it to your attention and you are telling us to FUCK OFF."

No, guys like Rangel are being told to fuck off because what they're doing is nothing more than petty antagonistic attempt to maintain the type of racist divisive bullshit that Dean is fighting against.



" You are proving my point. If Dean and you guys would have been "real" from the start then it would have been o.k. Not to mention you're putting a whole nother spin to what it means to be liberal. I thought liberal was inclusiveness. I'm not feeling it here. Well, now the 'real' is showing and it isn't pretty. "

Sorry but frankly I don't think the dem bashing race baiting demographic is really a block we should worry about losing, because they're obviously not on any side but their own.

It is amazing how many Clark supporters are such vicious partisans, yet the vast majority of their hate is directed at Dems like Dean and Clark. Guess your folks are showing the REAL side of Clark as well... the side of a hateful dem basher.

...if you weren't one of the most notorious Clark bashers here.

"The issues Dean is addressing are very much the issues that resonate with the black community, like jobs, healthcare, education etc. And that's the reason you Clark cowards are attacking Dean on race issues, because you see it as a weak spot specifically because Dean is reaching out to minority groups honestly rather than pandering to them and maintaining this black vs. white mentality."

This is especially rich, because in your frequent attacks on Clark you never address the issues of jobs, healthcare, education, "etc."

Instead, you focus on things like Clark's post-military business dealings. Why is that? Afraid to compare the candidate's actual platforms?

Gee, we wouldn't want to actually talk about issues, now would we? Let's make this all about "character."

I already know what you're gonna say - that you think Clark's business ties ARE an issue.

Fine. Maybe for you, they are.

And for a lot of us, Dean's inability to connect with the African-American community is an issue, too.

For you to dismiss those concerns is myopic, and more than a little hypocritical.

"Guess your folks are showing the REAL side of Clark as well... the side of a hateful dem basher."

And I guess that means you represent the REAL side of Dean - the side of a spiteful Dem basher :eyes:

You can't take the high road if you've spent most of your time in the ditch.

It is bashing a war mongering defense lobbyist.

"This is especially rich, because in your frequent attacks on Clark you never address the issues of jobs, healthcare, education, "etc.""

SO rather than address the point I just raised about issues important to the AA community, you attack me personaly. Typical.

The reason I don;t attack Clark over those issues is that, while his plans are not great, they are not the big negatives. I have a lot more of a problem with his war crimes than his stance on education.

"Instead, you focus on things like Clark's post-military business dealings. Why is that? Afraid to compare the candidate's actual platforms?"

Because I don't give a shit what CLark SAYS his platform is this week, it means nothing in the light of his past business dealings. The man was a defense lobbyist... you can't defend that and you know it.

"Gee, we wouldn't want to actually talk about issues, now would we? Let's make this all about "character." "

No it is not about character as much as it is about a man who sold his influence for profit, who now wants to be given more influence.

"I already know what you're gonna say - that you think Clark's business ties ARE an issue. Fine. Maybe for you, they are."

As if you wouldn't be havign a fit if Dean had worked for a pile of defense contractors... please. From targeting civilians in kosovo to endorsing the SOA to his actions in south america to being part of the NED to sel his influence to profit off 9-11, CLark is a fraud and a fake who is interested in nothing but himself and his own power.


"And for a lot of us, Dean's inability to connect with the African-American community is an issue, too."

Yeah... a made up issue. Dean is doing very well with AA voters. But since when have the facts stood in the way of a good old clark corps bashing session.

"For you to dismiss those concerns is myopic, and more than a little hypocritical."

What I am dismissing is the desperate attempt by Clark supporters to act as if dismissign their inept race baiting attacks is the same as dismissing the issues they try to piggyback their attacks on.

"You can't take the high road if you've spent most of your time in the ditch."

I can when the CLark corps are tunneling under the ditch.

"I can when the CLark corps are tunneling under the ditch."

That's a pretty funny line :toast:

"Because I don't give a shit what CLark SAYS his platform is this week, it means nothing in the light of his past business dealings."

See, now that's the heart of the matter - you don't trust Clark's platform because of his past. Fine. That's your right.

But that's exactly why I don't trust Dean's platform - his campaign rhetoric doesn't match with how he governed Vermont.

As for Dean and the African-American community, I don't think it's a "made up" issue. And I'm not the only one. These stories aren't originating at DU. Ignore it if you want, but it isn't going away.

"his campaign rhetoric doesn't match with how he governed Vermont. "

Now I can cite specific quotes to show Clark has does a 180, from saying Reagan was a great leader to saying he's a democrat.

Can you please cite the specific example of Dean's big switch from the way he governed in VT? He was a dem moderate in VT whose big issues were healthcare, education, and balanced budgets. So where's this big change?

State funding per Vermont student decreased by 13% over the ten years he was governor. State funding for prisons increased 150% while funding for state colleges increased by only 7%. If that's your idea of making education a "big issue"... :scared:

His environmental record was less than stellar, supporting a controversial mining effort and awarding big contracts to the Vermont Yankee nuke plant and the Hydro-Quebec electric company.

He agreed with (then-Texas Governor) George Bush to ship Vermont's nuclear waste to a small community in Texas. He called the Yucca Mountain project (the plan to ship America's nuclear waste across interstate highways and railways to a dump in Nevada) a "grand idea."

Throw in the his "strong" support for NAFTA, his opposition to the assault weapons ban, and his slams on Medicare, and his run as Governor gives me pause.

Sure, he's modified a lot of those positions since joining the presidential race, but his record is his record.

just yesterday, when those of us who disagreed with Gore's endorsement received condescending little lectures on the First Amendment?

All of a sudden free speech is not such a wondrous thing when Charles Rangel uses it to express his concern that the frontrunner candidate does not have sufficient black support. Then he suddenly becomes a no-good hack politician who needs to shut his damn piehole.

shouldn't be limited, but when charlie rangel says something and you don't like it then he should F' off and go to hell.

Hummmm, let me see,
So I disagree with Gore's endorsement being given before any votes have been cast, and I hate Dean....Right

OK you guys are proving my point. When I went to school there were the white kids who always said they were liberal. But they wouldn't drive through the black neighborhoods or they would grab their purses when I walked by.

Whenever there was a discussion about black folks in a class they were always the first to tell me how things were but they didn't want to use the shower after me in the dorm.

Hummmm are these the same white liberal young folks telling me that are supporting Dean? Well that is what it lookie like! You're not liberal, you're posin. After you get married and have your families you'll wanna move into the cookie cutter white neighborhoods and call the cops on black folk you see walking down your street at night. You'll become a soccer mom and a nascar dad. You'll still vote Democratic but you'll always wonder if that well dressed black man walking across the street is gonna car jack your mini van.

you guys are NUTZ

. . .I guess we will have to sit him down at the inaguration and talk to him.

:kick:

My point is that the same crowd that was defending Gore on free speech grounds yesterday is now piling on Rangel for exercising his own right to speak. Apparently free speech is only good when it advances the cause of Deanism.

Attacking white liberals in a variety of ways is so democratic of you.

Sorry you had bad experiences in your life, why don't you blame it on me, I'm sure it's my fault somehow. And of course it was my mistake to ever move into a mostly white neighborhood, in fact I should have moved into the projects instead.

. . .we (Black Clark supporters) are not doing as told so now you are trying to shut us up?

When did I tell blacks to shut up? I think attacking white liberals, smearing them with how they behave (clutching purses when passing black men), where they live and what their personal hobbies are is racist. It is a stereotyping of people the poster clearly doesn't even know in real life.

I never once attacked you or even Rangle in this thread. If I posted stereotypes about blacks, it would be deleted in a heartbeat. I guess only black on white racism is the good stuff.

:kick:

:hi:

If I hear any more RW codespeak, I'm going to

:puke:

Nice liberal, progressive board, huh?

DTH

. . .to quote Public Enemy and Aaron McGruder "I have a right to be hostile."

All too often there is a pile of racist crap about whites posted, then anybody who takes issue with it is accused of attacking blacks, when the fact is what they are attacking is the racist devisive shit being posted.

You are right, if I were to post about the time my father and step mother were muged by a black gang banger punk, and tried to act like those are the folks supporting Clark... the post would be deleted and I'd probably get banned.

But if someone posts about white women clutching purses and tries to act like those are all Dean supporters who have soemthign against black folks... that's perfectly OK to post.

There is a very real double standard.

isn't the same thing as telling Gore to fuck off.

It is sad how you try to act as if telling someone they should not be allowed to speak is the same as telling someone to fuck off because of what tehy said.

Nobody is telling Rangel he shouldn't be a typical Clarkie jackass... they're just telling him he should go fuck himself because he's a typical clarkie jackass.

in any way restricting his freedom of speech?

It'd make good reality TV too.

Get over it.

Even though this location had been chosen for something else prior to the endorsement announcement....the whole thing has become a spectacle. First the timing, then the assumption that supporters of other candidates would give a hoot what Gore wants us to do and now having WHITE people hold sign that read "AFRICAN-AMERICANS FOR DEAN" THAT is bad. Looks like a major backfire to me and Charlie Rangel has every right to be miffed. He IS African-American and it DID look like it was "all for show" for the African-American community. JMCPO

Even though this location had been chosen for something else prior to the endorsement announcement....

Most of the vitriol spewed in this thread is about Rangel's ability to criticize Dean because there weren't enough blacks on the stage.

By the way, the fact that the Clarkies are the ones who are here slamming Gore and Dean is most telling. There are Freepers in all parties, I guess.

and has every right to. The whole thing took place in his district and he IS African-American. They deserve to be criticized and we "Clarkies" are those supporters that Gore and Dean so arrogantly think should drop our candidate and support Dean. We, too, have every right to criticize. WE are the ones they insulted. Thank you very much.

What is the DEAL with you people????

Why is Al Gore's endorsement of Dean "telling you who to vote for"??

You know, I think it was wrong of Bill Clinton to endorse Al Gore in 2000. He was unduly trying to influence the outcome of the election. Do you see how goofy your logic is?

Rangel is a Clark supporter who attacked Dean...this is not rocket science.

All in the timing. He should have waiting for the field of candidates to thin out to 2 or 3 or 4.

G-D knows they play that endorsement video enough on CNN and C-SPAN, maybe you should watch it again and listen to what Gore said.

I expect you to lambaste and attack Clinton if he decides to endorse Clark in the next month. I DEMAND it!

It's like I woke up in Freepland...because Gore decides to endorse the person you don't like, all the sudden, you've got enemies. It's like the Freepers attacking Scott Ritter for questioning Shrub.

how many times do I have to say this? IT'S THE TIMING! If Clinton endorses Clark after the field is whittled down, THAT is expected and sorry, but no one demands ANYTHING from me and gets it. Sorry.

whenever he wants?

Would you have had this problem if Clinton endorsed Clark in this manner?

yes.

that's like wiping your ass before you take a dump... not going to do much good.

So, if, say, Evan Bayh endosrsed Lieberman today, you'd be equally outraged?

it would be more appropriate. so why attack?

Had CLark got the endorsment would you be here crying how arrogant Clark is to think Dean supporters whould drop their guy and vote for Clark?

Nope... you'd be here saying how Gore knows a winner when he sees one and how we should follow Gore, a true Dem's, example.

You don't get much more anti-Deanitic than this!

;-)

And the guy who's running the mosr deceptive campaign I've seen in the Dem party.

. . .Dean tends to bend the truth when he says things like Clark "was a Republican until 25 days ago," or that Clark supported the war.

Rangel, incredibly, is one of the prime movers of the new military draft.

It fits that he would support Clark AND a draft.

I trust Sirley Jackson Lee, Jeese Jackson Jr., and Major Owens -- 3 Black Congresspersons supporting Dean


Rangel can bite me (not really though)

. . .unlike other candidates, General Clark and his supporters do not have to walk in lock step.

who has detailed exactly how and why - there will be NO DRAFT with him.

And there needs to be some serious soul-searching about race around here.

Clarkies need to do some soul searching and realize that trying to race-bait gets you some serious problems.

Damn, you don't expect this crap at DU. This SHOULD be a safe place to talk about race.

So sad.

Rangel specifically criticized Dean/Gore over a point about the number of blacks on the stage. That is delving for sympathies on a race-based topic.

You guys really should take this seriously. Except you won't because you don't get it.

That's a little more than a simple disagreement. Maybe instead of criticizing Dean, Rangel could explain how he could support someone who fundamentally disagrees with him on an issue of severe importance.

That he doesn't want ANYONE going over there to die in Iraq. What he wants is some attention focused on the plight of the poor and people of color, and on the implications of war as it pertains to race and class.

Just look at the rich chickenhawks who protect their own progeny (just like Bush), and you'll understand Rangel's point.

DTH

maybe he should have thought about it, since the draft disproportionately calls up the poor and people-of-color

You'll note that some of the rich exemptions were eliminated from his bill.

DTH

so now he's simply supporting the continuation of war that he and his buddies wanted...but, oh! at least he's brought up the issue of the inequities of the draft!

Rangel was opposed to the Iraq war.

Here, since you apparently aren't interested in looking it up yourself, here's his press release on why he instituted the measure. It's crystal clear:

http://www.house.gov/apps/list/press/ny15_rangel/draftrelease.html

DTH

IN HELL that that REPUBLICAN congress is going to pass Charlie Rangel's Draft Proposal and Charlie KNOWS it. Do you really think those freepers are going to vote to send THEIR children to war? Not in my lifetime. It will just solidify a very fine point that needs to be aired. ONLY poor disenfranchised citizens will be available to be drafted.....which sucks, BIG TIME!

The whole point of it was that there would be no exemptions for rich, white, college bound yuppie kids. He drafted it to freak out the Republican chickenhawks and make them re-evaluate their agenda in Iraq.

which I've heard is getting more and more likely

Maybe Rangel could have introduced some articles of impeachment instead.

Rangel opposed Dean.

Rangel is on Ways and Means (a most powerful committee)

and I do not trust one word out of Clark's mouth.

I guess having the largest proponent of the Draft supporting your guy makes you happy, Especially when he is throeing disses at Dean and Gore.

It makes me nauseous. I do NOT want my children to die for Clark and Rangel's political pleasure.

Maybe you should go to his web site and read how he stands on the issues before you make statements about him?

Here, I'll make it easy for you.

http://clark04.com/issues/

http://www.americansforclark.com/

he worked for Bush's political/financial allies (Stephens Group) and lobbied for Axciom for surveillance contracts.

A Republican supporting GENERAL Lobbyist and employee of Bushmen.

I just do NOT believe a word he says.

He SAYS great things. He sounds damn good on a lot of issues. He is a Smart guy.

But his history suggests he is a republican running as a Dem and that he is a snake in the grass.

So whatever his website says I do not think any smart person would trust it.

If, as I believe, he is really a BFEE trojan horse (who will keep the policies of his Bush backers and protect them just as he needs protection from war crimes prosecutions for civilian deaths) then his "aversion" to the draft in this campaign means little or nothing when it comes to what he really might do. He MIGHT point at Rangel and say: "Charlie is RIGHT!!! We NEED a draft!!! Okay!!!"

I will not gamble my children's lives, well-being and future on someone who has been a key player in the theater where Stephens and Axciom and the Bushes play.

I just need to Thank You for insulting every Clark supporter in the United States and Canada. Tells me a lot about you.

So whatever his website says I do not think any smart person would trust it.

but then we know that what Clark says he is for or against changes depending on his audience and the size of the check.

No candidate needs AA or HA, or AsianAmerican signs for a campaign. As long as the person is standing up there with the sign, people will get the message of inclusion.

I know when I look at campaign stuff on TV I look to see if there are black folk there. I wanna know that there are others who feel or don't feel the way I do. If I see a lot of black folk I pay more attention.

If I don't then that is a different story.

Not to mention...Clinton came to my church and I had the opportunity to acutally give him a handshake. How cool is that!

We know when we are being used...did u see how quick J C Watts dropped out of sight?

is an effective measure of whether a candidate's message will resonate with that particular group?

Well, yes. Especially when WHITE people are standing there holding signs that read.."African-Americans" for Dean. Usually, having African-Americans there would be helpful for the purpose of trying to get them to vote for you. That's why they were there, right?

that if the room had been filled with African-Americans that we would be hearing about how Dean had stacked the room in order to pander to the black community?

You can suspect anything you want, but the fact remains...it was a major gaffe having WHITE people hold signs that read..."AFRICAN-AMERICANS FOR DEAN"..sorry.

I seriously doubt this is even true... has the smell of that "clinton blocked a runway to get a haircut" "looted the whitehouse" kind of crap.

Where is a picture of these white folks holding AA for Dean signs?


ANd I mean more than just handing the signs out.

Asian, Indian, Hispanic, Black, you don't think oh, there's antother---insert your race here---here?

I remember when I was in college, a white girl asked me why all the black people sat together @ lunch and Dinner. I went to a school with 32 black students out of 1,200. Funny thing is it was 32 exactly each year for 15 years.

I said well what are you talking about? All the white people sit together? When you are the majority you don't notice things like that because you are the norm.

I can't wear "nude" panty hose. What about Flesh coloured band-aids? They don't match my flesh.

Why are all the black hair products always in one little section. shampoo is shampoo, right?