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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 12:08 PM
Original message
Kerry Argues Gore Backed " Wrong" Dean...by Ron Fournier, AP pol writer
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A52725-2003Dec10?language=printer

washingtonpost.com

Kerry Argues Gore Backed 'Wrong' Dean


By RON FOURNIER
The Associated Press
Wednesday, December 10, 2003; 11:08 AM

MANCHESTER, N.H. - Democratic presidential hopeful John Kerry said Wednesday that Al Gore endorsed "the wrong Howard Dean," accusing the front-runner of flip-flopping on the Iraq war.

A day after a debate dominated by the former vice president's endorsement of Dean, Kerry argued that the former Vermont governor tried to have it both ways on Iraq - casting himself as an anti-war candidate even as he embraced a congressional resolution that would have authorized President Bush to go to war.

"I think the great missing story of this campaign is in fact the truth about Howard Dean's statements about the war," Kerry said. "I don't know which judgment Al Gore endorsed yesterday."

The Massachusetts senator said Dean backed the resolution by Sens. Richard Lugar, R-Ind., and Joe Biden, D-Del., that would have urged Bush to get a new U.N. resolution to enforce weapons inspections in Iraq. If the United Nations had declined, the president would have had to make a formal determination that the Iraqi threat was so serious that the use of military force would be necessary.

...more...
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Hep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
1. Kerry is done
And he's going to bring everyone down with him.
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polpilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #1
24. Kerry accepts Global Whining Award!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dean '04...
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #24
56. I thought Lieberman did
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Bertrand Donating Member (764 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #1
29. I dont know about everyone
but im hoping he at least takes down Dean.
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Hep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #29
39. Of course you are
You haven't exactly been subtle with your blind animosity.
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Bertrand Donating Member (764 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #39
62. perhaps the
"im hoping he at least takes down Dean" gave it away, hmm?
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
46. Is Kerry telling the truth about Biden-Lugar or isn't he?
Maybe it's Dean's LIES and DECEPTIONS that will bring down the party if he is the nominee and Kerry is SAVING the party because the gawddam PRESS isn't doing their jobs.
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Hep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #46
52. Evreyone's fault but Kerry
Damn. No accountability. It's DEAN'S fault, it's THE PRESS'S fault. It's GOD'S own fault Kerry can't score a point.

Never Kerry's fault.

Dean didn't support Biden Lugar. At one point he said he would have. But saying he supported it suggests facts that are not in evidence. I mean, you're a long way from convincing anyone thet BL was the same as IWR. But TLM has your number on that one.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #52
55. Don't hide behind another. I never said they were the same
and TLM has never located ONE post where iI said the two were the same. I said the PROVISION that Dean attacks in IWR that gave Bush the power to determine use of force is the same. So, that means Dean is being deceptive.

And for you to now say that Dean no longer supports something he SAID he would have voted for....well...you can't take votes back. You won't even let Kerry go after Bush on Iraq because of his vote, but, suddenly Dean is allowed to take back his vote that HE proffered as a way of covering his own ass on Iraq?
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Hep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. You sure?
Edited on Wed Dec-10-03 03:20 PM by Hep
" Dean supported the SAME provision he attacks others for."

IWR and BL were not the same, BLM. How can you deny saying it?

Kerry can go after Bush as soon as he admits his vote was a mistake. He won't do that. Until he does, he's a hypocrite.

Dean said what he would have supported, but he has the luxury of not being held to that because it was never up to him. He had absolutely nothing to do with it. There are drawbacks to his not having been a legislator though, as well.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. I said the PROVISION in the bills were the same
in that Bush was given the power to make the determination of use of force. To say that I said the bills themselves were the same is simply untrue because I always said 'similar' or 'not too far off' ....but the key part about giving Bush final say WAS in both bills.

Now...why is that so difficult to comprehend for you?
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Hep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. It wasn't the same
Biden-Lugar gave congress more control, did it not? And if kerry was for BL, why did he vote yes in IWR?
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #63
68. Because he got some concessions and had to pay up.
Biden-Lugar did NOT give Congress more control. It said Bush comes to Congress with HIS determination that force is needed. That's it. So, Bush comes to congress and says "I have determined that force is needed." That was the provision that Dean approved in Biden-Lugar and the one in the IWR that Dean attacked others for.
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WiseMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
64. DEAN Has A History of Saying WHATEVER WINs
Ask Vermont Liberal who spent a decade in battles against "Ice Man" Governor Dean, who are now aghast as the watch the "hot" "angry man" anti-war activist Dean.

Dean does not care about the truth. He continues to describe the BIDEN/LUGAR resolution in a way that contradicts Biden and Lugar.

All the senators say that BIDEN/LUGAR would have allowed Bush to do exactly what he did without going back to congress. DEAN KEEPS CONTRADICTING THE SENATORS. Many people don't believe Dean understands the process. I DON'T THINK DEAN CARES. As allways, he says what WINS, and does whatever he has to do.

Dare we compares Dean's personal integrity with Kerry's? Here goes:

John Kerry answered his nation’s call and enlisted to fight and lead men in a dubious war in Vietnam rather than let someone else die in his place. The nation gave him the Silver Star, Bronze Star and 3 Purple Hearts for his bravery, service and sacrifice.

John Kerry to expose the tragic nature of the conflict an lead the protests to to end the War in which he fought. He has since led a live of quiet service to his country leading the opposition to unjust America actions around the world and fighting for the poor, elderly and disenfranchied Americans.

Howard Dean heard the call to Vietnam service and produced X-rays and a letter from his Doctor. The nation gave him a bad-back deferment and 1 year vacation on the ski-slopes of Aspen.

Like George W. Bush’s Vietnam Draft-Dodge into the Texas Air National Guard when he was “young and irresponsible,” Dr. Dean’s youthful maneuver memorializes the most shameful aspect of class and privilege in America – that the moneyed class can avoid their responsibilities and gain special advantages, yet end-up being celebrated for their success in life.

Dean says he has no twinge of guilt. HE NEVER HAS.

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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
2. More
From an article in Salon last February, 2003, Dean said:

"He (Dean) gets a deluge of phone calls from reporters asking him to clarify his position. Which is -- "as I've said about eight times today," he says, annoyed -- that Saddam must be disarmed, but with a multilateral force under the auspices of the United Nations. If the U.N. in the end chooses not to enforce its own resolutions, then the U.S. should give Saddam 30 to 60 days to disarm, and if he doesn't, unilateral action is a regrettable, but unavoidable, choice."

http://archive.salon.com/news/feature/2003/02/20/dean/index1.html

============================

(snip)

As the facts show, Gephardt was no more for war than Dean was; the facts show that each of them was basically in favor of the same thing, namely bringing matters with Iraq to a climactic head. Here is what actually happened. Bush proposed a pure, blank-check resolution authorizing the use of force in Iraq in September 2002. Many in Congress, Gephardt included, opposed it. Negotiations ensued, alternatives were proposed, and a month later many Democrats and nearly all Republicans agreed with Bush on a second resolution which passed overwhelmingly.

One of those alternatives -- offered by the top men on the Senate Foreign Relations, Democrat Joe Biden of Delaware and Republican Dick Lugar of Indiana -- authorized the use of force after a new UN resolution requiring Iraqi disarmament and compliance with past resolution; if UN diplomacy was exhausted it authorized unilateral action if the president declared Iraq a threat.

This alternative was not only supported by Howard Dean, it was supported by Senator John Kerry, whom Dean also attacks for being Bush's war buddy.

Lacking votes, the Biden-Lugar proposal was never formally introduced. Instead, the negotiations with Democrats produced the resolution that passed. It authorized force for several other offenses beyond prohibited weapons (including ballistic missiles, which Iraq had), but also encouraged UN involvement. The differences between the two were not huge, and each authorized war, including unilateral war.

After the vote, Dean reiterated his Biden-Lugar position but did not denounce the enacted resolution until later. He also said Bush should be taken at his word that Iraq constituted a threat.

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2003/11/23/deans_negative_tilt_in_iowa/

==============================

Dean said he would have voted instead for the Biden-Lugar resolution, which he said supported disarming Saddam using multilateral action, and which did not call for a "regime change."

http://www.cmonitor.com/stories/news/local2003/012303dean_2002.shtml
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ozone_man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #2
26. Dean required that WMDs or an Iraq threat
be established before any action could be taken, and this only if U.N. failed to act. Neither WMDs or an Iraq threat was established.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. Who didn't?
Who didn't require an Iraqi threat be established? Besides Bush.
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ozone_man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #30
41. Dean did not approve of the IWR. This gave Bush war powers,
Edited on Wed Dec-10-03 02:08 PM by ozone_man
instead of requiring congressional approval. The folks that signed the IWR gave Bush the power to wage war, so it was his interpretation of what a threat was. Not too bright, eh?

Here is a link to Dean's position preceding the war.

http://www.vote-smart.org/speech_detail.php?speech_id=M000003569&keyword=Iraq+War+resolution%2C+vote&phrase=&contain=&PHPSESSID=b45e0f23a5005e145f8792d06002f0da
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #41
47. Biden-Lugar DID give Bush war powers. Dean supported it
and said he would have voted for it.

So, did Dean not UNDERSTAND the bill or does he have some conflicting positions?
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #2
58. More...from your Salon article Will
Edited on Wed Dec-10-03 03:40 PM by mzmolly
"It's Thursday, Feb. 6, the day after Secretary of State Colin Powell's presentation to the United Nations of evidence of Iraq's noncompliance with Resolution 1441. Edwards calls it "a powerful case." Kerry says it's "compelling." Lieberman, of course, is already in his fatigues.

Dean isn't sold. It doesn't indicate that Iraq is an imminent threat, he says."


From Washington come the barbs -- The New Republic calls it proof he's "not serious." ABC News' "The Note" wonders if he's backed himself into a corner. Dean has opposed the pending war because he didn't think President Bush had made his case. If he doesn't support military action now, the thinking goes, then he's just contradicting himself. Or, at the very least, he's been put in an untenable and -- for the moment, at least inside war-ready Washington, unpopular -- position.

And there seems to be a paraphrasing of Deans position at the end.

He gets a deluge of phone calls from reporters asking him to clarify his position. Which is -- *begin quote* "as I've said about eight times today,"*End quote* he says, annoyed -- *begin paraphrase* that Saddam must be disarmed, but with a multilateral force under the auspices of the United Nations. If the U.N. in the end chooses not to enforce its own resolutions, then the U.S. should give Saddam 30 to 60 days to disarm, and if he doesn't, unilateral action is a regrettable, but unavoidable, choice. *end paraphrase*

You added in quotation marks that the article did not have.

Dean said it best here:

Dean ... denies that there's any inconsistency. "I think people are madly trying to find one," he says. "It's part of the game."
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
3. YES!!! I hope more journalists examine ALL of Dean's statements
Edited on Wed Dec-10-03 12:14 PM by blm
and how he deceptively attacked the other Democrats on IWR for the provision that he, himself, supported in Biden-Lugar - that Bush be allowed to determine the need for use of force.

Too bad Kerry has to tell the reporters who were too lazy to examine Dean's inconsistencies themselves.
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. I hope Kerry isn't waiting for the media to do their job
He has the money to push this issue until what is common knowledge at DU is known by the American people.

Note the dismissive tone at the end of the article:

Setting aside the arcane mechanics of congressional resolutions, Dean has been by far the most vocal opponent of Bush's policies in Iraq among the major candidates.

The blatant hypocrisy underlying Dean's accusations that "Bush-lite" Democrats issued Bush a blank check when Dean, himself, was willing to issue such a "blank check" has little to do with arcane mechanics and everything to do with the media, at least so far, giving Dean a free ride as the "antiwar" candidate.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Journalists will cover their own asses for their failure to really examine
Dean's positions...ALL of them...and his deceptive attack tactics on the other candidates. They can't admit they were the ones not doing their jobs.
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elfin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #3
13. They will --- AFTER he is the nominee
Then will pile on to help Shrub.
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #3
51. Kerry voted for IWR
Edited on Wed Dec-10-03 03:44 PM by KaraokeKarlton
If Kerry spent more time explaining and apologizing for his f*ck up in voting for the thing instead of whining about what Dean did or didn't say he might not be losing so badly.

This is Kerry's BIGGEST problem. He's not willing to take responsibility for his own mistakes and tries to shift the focus elsewhere or blame someone else for him not getting support because of his own actions. Sorry, but this is not a nation of people who have the time or inclination to enable Kerry's narcisism.

It's like this...Kerry voted for the IWR and ultimately HE is solely responsible for that vote and how Democratic voters feel about it. I've never seen anything so pathetic as the attitude that it's Dean's fault Kerry has such a sucky campaign and isn't doing as well as he'd like. Some of Kerry's supporters display that very same transferring of guilt that is not only counterproductive but VERY unhealthy. Bush-Lite comment or no Bush-Lite comment, people aren't behind Kerry because Kerry f*cked up royally with that vote and nothing Howard Dean could have said or done would change that reality.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #51
60. Dean lies about his position allowing Bush use of force all by himself.
And THAT was the point of the article. YOU want to turn it into your usual hatefest on Kerry, but Kerry is NOT the one lying and deceiving people. Dean is.
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #60
71. That's your opinion but it's not mine or everyone's opinion
and it doesn't change the fact that Kerry voted for IWR and THAT is why he doesn't have the support he would have had if he hadn't of voted for it. The ONLY reason you keep harping on and beating on this dead horse is because you think that if you can just convince people that Dean really supported the war too that Dean supporters will suddenly flock to support Kerry. That's not only not going to happen but it's got to be the sorriest damn tactic I've ever seen. If Kerry had of just admitted he made a mistake and apologized for his vote back when he was leading he would not be in the dire straights he is right now.

Everytime a Kerry supporter makes this ridiculous argument to try to help Kerry it only makes him look worse because it shows people that he can't own his mistakes and admit when he's wrong. We have been witnessing what happens when our president is too proud and stubborn to admit and apologize for his screw ups, and I, for one, would rather not make the same mistake twice.
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
4. Knew it wouldn't last
Kerry needed a fix.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #4
15. Well, is Kerry telling the truth or not?
And does the truth even matter to you any more?
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realFedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 12:17 PM
Response to Original message
5. and in the end, Kerry voted to give Bush a blank check
That's the difference between Dean and Kerry.
One didn't have to vote this country into war
and the other chose to.

Kerry is the one who votes one way and talks the
opposite game.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Dean supported the SAME provision he attacks others for.
The deception has been Dean's all along and you think that is OK? As long as he beats on other Dems for their vote it doesn't matter if he's lying about his own support?
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #6
35. Wrong again. The ACLU said that Biden/Lugar was very different
than the war Kerry voted for. I'm so sorry your candidate got that one hung around his neck this time around. Stick a fork in him.

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #35
49. Wrong. The provision Dean attacked was the same in Biden-Lugar.
Dean supported Bush be given the authority to determine the need for use of force. THAT is the provision in IWR that he attacked others for. Noone is saying the bill was the exact same, but that provision was key to both bills and the one Dean deceptively distorted when attacking others.
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #49
65. Wrong again. B/L had more stringent criteria for launching war
Among it, UN backing and or at the very least a certified case that America was under imminent threat. The ACLU notes that difference. You don't. Hmmm, who to believe....an anonymous Dean hater or the ACLU....

I'll go with the ACLU.

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #65
70. I always said it was a BETTER bill, so did Kerry. BUT...
the provision that BUSH be the one to make the FINAL determination for use of force was the same and Dean was deceitful by attacking others for that same provision in the IWR.
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Hep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. But, but, Kerry's campaign is about the future!
Not the past!

Next up on Ripley's Believe it or Not, A candidate who can say contradictory things AT THE SAME TIME while criticizing others for any changes in position that have taken place over a decade!
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. Neither required another vote
If there's not another vote, they're both blank checks. Even Ted Kennedy said so.
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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #5
23. No, the difference is that Dean did not have to vote on IWR...
Even our lazy, feckless press can easily discern whether one has voted for a particular resolution or not.

Interestingly, Bill Clinton, in an appearance today in Canada, said on CNN he would have voted for the IWR resolution in Congress becasue Saddam would never let inspectors in without the threat of force. In addition, in the article linked below, Clinton said:

"I thought it was the right thing to go to the UN and the wrong thing for us to start the conflict before (UN lead weapons inspector) Hans Blix had finished his job," said Clinton.

"The president said he would let the UN process play out. What happened was Mr. Blix was begging for four to six more weeks and America (read Bush) didn't give it to him."

Clinton told the crowd he hoped the UN will now take over much of the responsibility for security and humanitarian efforts in Iraq.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1071055638043_122/?hub=Canada

Perhaps an answer to Gore's endorsement of Dean because he was the "only major candidate" who was against the war in Iraq.

Dean has cynically used the IWR to capture the anger, and thereby the votes of the anti-war, activist left. And our hapless press has let him get away with it.

It will be interesting to see if the media follows Fournier's lead as he is considered to be the premiere AP political reporter.
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phirili Donating Member (451 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
7. Gore made me wonder if he was unaware of Dean's support for Biden-Lugar
IWR resolution. Or of Dean's support for direct action by the US, after allowing Saddam 30 days to comply with Bush's demands.

Methinks Gore spoiled the endorsement with his pronuncements. KISS was never a Gore attribute. According to Gore we should all make Dean the nominee. full stop .

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Most journalists didn't cover it. Many here did not know about it.
Edited on Wed Dec-10-03 12:58 PM by blm
How could Gore know if the media didn't tell him or Dean didn't tell him either?

And Dean supporters won't care that he's been deceptive about his war stance while attacking the others for the same provision he supported.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #17
31. I didn't lie about Biden-Lugar and DEAN is.
Yet you attack me instead of demanding honesty from Dean.
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #31
66. Oh, but you did. And you continue to.
You are trying to equate B/L with IWR. The differences have been exposed and endlessly affirmed, yet you keep trying to peddle baloney about Dean. It won't work. It will never work.


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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #66
72. Untrue. The bills are similar in many respects,
different in some, but the PROVISION that Bush be allowed final determination for use of force was the same. Dean was FOR that, and you can't say he wasn't.

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imhotep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
12. Dean Dean Dean Dean
:D
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #12
21. Draft Dodger. Draft Dodger. Draft Doger. Draft Dodger.
Howard Dean spent the winter tooling around the moguls of Vale after getting the draft board to accept a note from his doctor and an X-ray stating he had a bad back. Eighty-plus days skiing means he made a miraculous recovery.

Would you want that kind of a character sending your fellow Americans into harm's way? Would you want your kids to follow orders from someone who wouldn't himself accept the same risk in military service? That doesn't show much backbone, does it?
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #21
37. Says the guy who won't answer if he's ever been in the military
Edited on Wed Dec-10-03 02:05 PM by Scott Lee
Another day on DU.
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PVnRT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #21
53. If you were drafted tomorrow
would you go unquestioningly?

Something tells me you won't bother answering.
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MoonRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
16. Kerry needs to learn how to live with the consequences of his own actions.
Edited on Wed Dec-10-03 01:24 PM by saywhat
That's the grown-up thing to do. I support Clark who did not back the Iraq war, but Dean also has a strong record of opposition to this outrage. Kerry's IWR vote helped bring about the killing of hundreds of thousands, including American soldiers. He should be ashamed, not defemsive.
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truthspeaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. why hasn't Kerry been talking about IWR on the SENATE FLOOR?
Unlike Dean he is IN the Senate. Once he realized Bush had fucked up the situation (Kerry's own extremely accurate words), he should have used his position as a Senator to criticize Bush's reckless actions repeatedly.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. How do you know he didn't?
Would you even know? Where would it be reported? Would you remember if it had been posted? Would you read it? Would you care? Have you read anything Kerry has said, in full, in the last year?
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mrgorth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
18. Marcia! Marcia! Marcia!
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
19. Gore is endorsing this Dean:
The one who was consistantly outspoken against our horrible Iraq boondoggle.

Vermont Gov. Howard Dean said if Saddam is shown to have atomic or biological weapons, the United States must act. But he also said Bush must first convince Americans that Iraq has these weapons and then prepare them for the likelihood American troops would be there for a decade.

August 12, 2002

President Bush would have to meet two criteria before he ordered a U.S. invasion, Dean said Sunday during a presidential campaign trip to New Hampshire.

"The first is, he has to show the American people, as President Kennedy did in the Cuban missile crisis, that there’s evidence (Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein) has either atomic or biological weapons and can deliver them," Dean said. "So far he has not made that case. So where’s the threat? We need to see that evidence."

...

"We also have to be honest about how long we’re going to be there. We’re going to have American troops on the ground in Iraq for 10 years," Dean said. "If we’re not honest about that, then I don’t think the president ought to have the right to make the decision to go into a war with Iraq because the American people ought to be told ahead of time what that’s going to mean to us."

August 21, 2002

“He needs to first make the case and he has not done that,” Dean said. “He has never come out and said Saddam (Hussein) has the atomic bomb and we need to deal with him.”

...

"He needs to be forthright with the American people about what this means," said Dean. "If we go into Iraq, we’re going to have to stay for probably five or 10 years."

He warned that simply deposing Hussein is not enough. The United States would have to plant the seeds of democracy in a country with little such tradition, he said.

"Americans are going to have to die and a lot of money is going to be spent," said Dean.

...

"The American people need to be told the truth up front," said Dean. "It’s not going to Afghanistan and it’s not going to be the last Iraqi war. If we don’t stay there and remold the country into a democratic country, which will take 10 years, then it’s stupid to go in there."

September 04, 2002


"There's substantial doubt that is as much of a threat as the Bush administration claims." Though Americans might initially rally to military action, 'that support will be very short-lived once American kids start coming home in boxes,' Mr. Dean warned Wednesday as he campaigned in Iowa.

September 06, 2002

"The president has to do two things to get the country's long-term support for the invasion of Iraq," Dean said in a telephone interview. "He has done neither yet." Dean said President Bush needs to make the case that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, such as atomic or biological weapons, and the means to use them. Bush also needs to explain to the American public that a war against Iraq is going to require a long commitment.

September 18, 2002

Dean, in an interview Tuesday, said flatly that he did not believe Bush has made "the case that we need to invade Iraq." Dean said he could support military action, even outside the U.N., if Bush could "establish with reasonable credibility" that Hussein had the capacity to deliver either nuclear or biological weapons against the United States and its allies. But he said that the president, to this point, hadn't passed that test.

"He is asking American families to sacrifice their children, and he's got to have something more than, 'This is an evil man,' " Dean said. "There are a lot of evil people running countries around the world; we don't bomb every one of them. We don't ask our children to die over every one of them."

September 18, 2002

"I think most of the focus on Iraq is because of their terrible record on the economy and health care," said Dean, a Democrat. "I think there’s a healthy amount of domestic politics involved."

September 25, 2002

"There’s no question that Saddam Hussein is a threat to the United States and to our allies," Dean said on CBS’ "Face The Nation" via satellite from Austin, Texas.

"The question is, ‘Is he an immediate threat?’ The president has not yet made the case for that. I think it may very well be, particularly with the news that we’ve had over the weekend, that we are going to end up in Iraq. But I think it’s got to be gone about in a very different way."

...

While Dean said the United States must defend itself unilaterally if necessary, he emphasized that now is the time to be getting the cooperation of the United Nations Security Council and U.S. allies.

"It’s not good for the future of the foreign policy of this country to be the big bully on the block and tell people we’re going to do what we want to do," he said.

September 29, 2002

Kerry said he expects Democrats will overwhelmingly approve the pending Senate resolution authorizing the use of force in Iraq. "I think there will be a significantly more unified front than in the last Gulf War," he said.

But Dean said there are significant differences among Democrats on the issue, and suggested a political motive for presidential moves toward war.

"What’s the imminent danger?" he asked. "The president has never said, and all the intelligence reports say there isn’t any. It’s hard to escape the conclusion that some of this has to do with the midterm elections."
October 6, 2002


"The president approached it in exactly the wrong way. The first thing I would have done is gone to United Nations Security Council and gone to our allies and say, "Look, the UN resolutions are being violated. If you don't enforce them, then we will have to." The first choice, however, is to enforce them through the UN and with our allies. That's the underlying approach."

October 31st, 2002

"I would like to at least have the president, who I think is an honest person, look us in the eye and say, 'We have evidence, here it is.' We've never heard the president of the United States say that. There is nothing but innuendo, and I want to see some hard facts."

December 22, 2002


Appearing on the CBS news show "Face the Nation," Dean, who is running for president, said President Bush had not made the case to go to war against Saddam Hussein’s Iraq.

...

"I do not believe the president has made the case to send American kids and grandkids to die in Iraq. And until he does that, I don't think we ought to be going into Iraq. So I think the two situations are fairly different. Iraq does not possess nuclear weapons. The best intelligence that anybody can find, certainly that I can find, is that it will be at least a year before he does so and maybe five years."

January 05, 2003

"I personally believe hasn’t made his case"

January 10, 2003

Dean, meanwhile, said he would not have voted for the Iraq resolution, though he is not against the use of military force if necessary.

"The problem with the resolution on Iraq is the president has never made his case," he said.

January 23, 2003

"These are the young men and women who will be asked to risk their lives for freedom. We certainly deserve more information before sending them off to war."

January 29, 2003

"The secretary of state made a compelling case for what the American people already know: Saddam Hussein is a deceitful tyrant who must be disarmed," said Dean. "But I heard little today that leads me to believe that there is an imminent threat warranting unilateral military action by the United States against Iraq."

...

"I am not in the no-way camp. Definitely not. I think Saddam must be disarmed. The problem I have is that I have a deep reluctance to attack a country unilaterally without a pretty high standard of proof," he said. "I am hoping to resolve this peacefully.

"To say you are in the not-yet camp implies that war is inevitable and I don’t think that is true," he added.

Dean did say he is not completely opposed to a U.S. attack on Iraq: "There are circumstances under which I would attack Iraq unilaterally, but we are very far from those circumstances."

February 5, 2003

"Terrorism around the globe is a far greater danger to the United States than Iraq. We are pursuing the wrong war,"

February 5, 2003

"We ought not to resort to unilateral action unless there is an imminent threat to the United States. And the secretary of State and the president have not made a case that such an imminent threat exists.''

February 12, 2003

In an interview, Dean said that he opposed the congressional resolution and remained unconvinced that Hussein was an imminent threat to the United States. He said he would not support sending U.S. troops to Iraq unless the United Nations specifically approved the move and backed it with action of its own.

"They have to send troops," he said.
http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/nation/5236485.htm">Feb. 22, 2003

"Well, I think that the United Nations makes it clear that Saddam has to disarm, and if he doesn't, then they will disarm him militarily. I have no problem with supporting a United Nations attack on Iraq, but I want it to be supported by the United Nations. That's a well-constituted body. The problem with the so-called multilateral attack that the president is talking about is an awful lot of countries, for example, like Turkey-- we gave them $20 billion in loan guarantees and outright grants in order to secure their permission to attack. I don't think that's the right way to put together a coalition. I think this really has to be a world matter. Saddam must be disarmed. He is as evil as everybody says he is. But we need to respect the legal rights that are involved here. Unless they are an imminent threat, we do not have a legal right, in my view, to attack them.

February 27, 2003

Former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean said Friday he remains unimpressed with President Bush’s argument for attacking Iraq and he called for a standdown of military force.

"We ought not to go attack unilaterally or preemptively," Dean said. "We have a right to strike against those countries that pose an imminent threat and I don’t think Saddam possess an imminent threat."

March 8, 2003

The key is there has to be an imminent danger in order to go into Iraq.
March 9, 2003

MR. RUSSERT: In an interview with Roll Call, the Capitol Hill newspaper, in January, you said this, "In a meeting...with 'Roll Call' editors and reporters, Dean said this if President Bush presented evidence that Saddam Hussein possesses weapons of mass destruction, 'Then I'd go back to the U.N. and get a new resolution that either disarms in 60 days or we go in.'"

Isn't that exactly what the president did in November? He went to the United Nations, made the case, and it's now been 120 days and Saddam Hussein is still not cooperating.

MR. DEAN: See, I don't think the president has made the case. I think what the president has made a reasonable case for is that Saddam is moving weapons around in terms of biologicals and chemicals, perhaps. He has not made a case for the three things that I think require or enable us to invade unilaterally or pre-emptively or preventively, as we are now calling it. He has not made the case for Saddam possessing nuclear weapons. He has not made the case that he has any kind of a credible nuclear program. And he has not made the case that Saddam is giving weapons of mass destruction to the terrorists. If he were doing any of those things, I think we would have a right to defend ourselves, and we should go in. That case has not been made, either by the president or Secretary Powell, and I don't think that we ought to go in, if we don't want to use the word unilaterally, than preventively or pre-emptively.

...

MR. RUSSERT: If he hadn't disarmed within a year, would that be too long?

MR. DEAN: Well, again, Tim, I prefer very strongly that the United Nations make this decision about disarming Saddam. I said to Mort Kondracke, I think we can get a resolution, and I hope we will get a resolution that says 60 days, but it's the United Nations resolution that's important here.

March 9, 2003

What I want to know is what in the world so many Democrats are doing supporting the President’s unilateral intervention in Iraq?

March 15th, 2003

"I went to Parris Island so I could look into the faces of the kids who will be sent to Iraq," Dean told a cheering lunchtime crowd in Concord, N.H. "We should always support our kids, but I do not support this president's policies and I will continue to say so."

March 18, 2003

"Anti-war Presidential candidate Howard Dean said he will not silence his criticism of President Bush's Iraq policy now that the war has begun, but he will stop the 'red meat' partisan attacks.

"No matter how strongly I oppose the President's policy, I will continue to support American troops who are now in harms way," said Dean

March 20, 2003

While Dean said he was staunchly opposed to the war and planned to continue criticizing it, he also said the United States should keep fighting, putting him at odds with other antiwar activists who have been calling for an immediate cease-fire.

''We're in. We don't have any choice now. But this is the wrong choice,'' Dean said. ''There will be some who think we should get out immediately, but I don't think that's an easy position to take.''

March 23, 2003

"I’m certainly not going to change my message," Dean said. "I don’t see how I could. I think the war is a problem, in terms of our long-term foreign policy."

"What I’ve said is, I’m not going to criticize the president in a partisan way or in a personal way during the war," said Dean. "But for me to change my policy on that now wouldn’t make any sense. I haven’t altered my view about this."

March 24, 2003

On day one of a Dean Presidency, I will reverse this attitude. I will tear up the Bush Doctrine. And I will steer us back into the company of the community of nations where we will exercise moral leadership once again.

April 17th, 2003
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. There it is!
:yourock:
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. Biden-Lugar = WAR
Dean supported it. Case closed.
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. The record speaks for itself.
Dean = Against Iraq War
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #27
33. The record, Post #2
Dean supported a war resolution for war, he made numerous statements for war; he was NOT against the Iraq war from the start. Howard Dean the anti-war maverick is a creation of Joe Trippi.
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. You're nitpicking has convinced me
Dean really didn't say what all those quotes stated. It was all an invention by Trippi and his gang of history reversing hackers.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #27
34. So, you're saying Dean didn't UNDERSTAND Biden-Lugar when he supported it?
He didn't UNDERSTAND that it allowed Bush to go to war?

Is that a GOOD thing that Dean didn't understand it or a bad thing?
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. Obviously opinions differ on Biden Lugar
But don't let that stop you from ignoring the reality that Dean was quite vocally against the war and Kerry wasn't.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #38
44. Yes, Kerry was. But Biden-Lugar wasn't an opinion
so you can't hide behind that weak claim.

It was a FACT that B-L allowed Bush the authority for use of force. The SAME provision in IWR that Dean attacked the others for.
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. Well I guess that destroys the "he's unelectable because he opposed Bush"
meme.

Go Dean!
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #25
69. BidenLugar could have stopped war. It raised the bar.
So trying to equate it with the IWR blank check given to Bushhole is pretty silly. As well as wrong.


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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
32. Which John Kerry said that?
I'm having a hard time keeping track of them all.

Thanks.


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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #32
50. yup was it the anti war Kerry or the one who signed the IRW?
:shrug:

Kerry is toast and even though it seems a bit sad, he did it too himself.
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #50
54. You know. Most veterans are anti-war
having seen it up close. I know John McCain and Wes Clark are that way. John Kerry is no different.
Approving the resolution does not mean Kerry wanted a war, and it is really, really, insulting to suggest that he did, and that he is no longer anti-war.
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #54
67. Kerry's not a warmonger, but he is chicken for taking the safe vote
That's the meaning behind criticism of his pro IWR vote.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #67
73. Kerry Voted Based On The Same Thing He Was Saying Since 1997
Being a Dean fan, you are probably not used to all that consistency. Whatever. The fact is that I wouldn't trust a Sharon lackey like Dean with my national security. Just because he bet on black doesn't mean he's a gambling master.
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Dover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
40. Kerry's accusations of Gore's disloyalty to Lieberman, in last night's
debate said it all. He was defending Lieberman's...cough...hack...spit...honor, and I just wanted to puke.

I can just imagine all the real reasons and stories behind Gore's decision, and I'm guessing it wouldn't paint a rosey picture of Lieberman, the DLC, etc.
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
42. Good
straighten Dean out.
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
43. knowing this, and watching the debate yesterday
I was struck by Dean's constant need to preface his Iraq statements with his "opposition". Anyone willing to objectively look at the situation knows that the positions of the (major) Dem. candidates are essentially the same.

I couldn't help be struck by the clear and concise answers given by Clark and Kerry, even Edwards and Gephardt, when it came to foreign policy/national security. Howard Dean's rambling and almost incoherent responses made me wonder what Al Gore was thinking with his endorsement.
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
48. This thread goes to show--Dean people don't like Kerry criticizing Dean
Edited on Wed Dec-10-03 02:35 PM by jpgray
But people who don't like Dean do.

Whee.
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
61. Sour grapes make yucky whine
;-)
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