I don't understand the Deanies

and, in fact, have a problem with what Malloy said the other night about Gore/Dean (they're related). Malloy said that he thinks Gore endorsed HOward because "he has seen the error of his past DLC ways, and wants to pull the Democratic Party back towards its base".

If this were his motivation, wouldn't he endorse DK? Similarly, Deanies, if you prefer the Dr. to Clark, because he's more liberal/less military/whatever, shouldn't Kucinich be your candidate?

You will learn to like it, I promise.

I guess we have to read between the lines when Dean supporters
debate issues.

No thanks!

They lose this logic when looking at Dean, however.

My problem is, ok put Dean out there in 04, but FUCKING GET TO WORK in Congress. We need to win back Congress (at least the Senate), because Dean will get blown out. If anything, use Dean as a re-aligning type force to help win back Congress or something. These fantasies about Dean beating Bush need to stop. We have to get to work in other areas.

about the candidates, eventhough Clark has kind of relit a spark that Dean's exclusiveness blew out. But my main focus now is taking back the congress and the senate.
Deanies, if your man was to win the Whitehouse, how in the hell will he be able to get anything accomplished if republicans control everything.
It is great that you have found someone to energize you, but the buck doesn't stop at the Whitehouse!

Clark is a Democrat now, which means that he is just as much scum as all the rest, in the eyes of the Republicans in Congress. Even if they lose the Presidency, unless they are knocked out of the majority, look for more of the same no matter who is President.

It's just plain wrong about any of the candidates. Whoever and I mean WHOEVER can get the support and votes to gain the office is electable. That's all of them.

Can we please put a voluntary moratorium on this idiotic word?

And his grassroots and growing org will be instrumental, not to mention his money and fundraising ability. He got his supporters to raise $51,000 for the only Iowa in Congress the other day.

:)

a large portion of the Democratic base is currently behind Dean.

(I can't believe I'm playing "Dean Defense Team" so much today - where's my check? ;) )

But - that's life in the big leagues.

Look, Dean is not leftist like me either. But his combination of guts, drive, ingenuity and the willingness to listen to Leftists over all is a better package than I see in the other candidates.

and Dennis can't win. He splits our party on abortion. He is still in close to dead last.

I didn't realize a conservative politician represented the base of the Democratic party.

n/t

but not sure which he said, however it'll be on LK transcripts later to check. :)

could win and wants to. But he brings ideas to the table
just like all the other less electable candidates. Maybe
they can't be president but they can think and talk and
change debates with ideas.

All of our guys and Carole are valuable. You only have to
look as far as bush to see what happens when there are no
ideas, no room for them and no multiple candidates to
make you think about your choice.

is not as left as me and will, unfortunately, not throng en masse to support Kucinich. Dean is a centrist who has demonstrated to me that he is open to what the left has to say, which is more than I get from most elected Dems these days.

Dean presents himself and is presented by others as a kind of revolutionary. Revolutionaries scare me off. Issue-wise, me and him have more than a few disagreements. That's it.

Reagan Revolution
Gingrich Revolution
Dean Revolution

I'd like one out of three, please. That's not asking too much. Republicans ought not be the only ones getting the revolutions.

It's not possible to choose Dean over both Clark and Kucinich? Sorry, The Doctor, I don't understand your post.

Deal breaker. Sorry.

It is just that it seems if you want electability, your choice would be Clark. If you are liberal and/or want to bring the party back to FDR's, you'd be for DK. But if there is one (or two) deal-breakers among the policies of one or another, that would make sense.

Which I don't. In fact, I think he's got more vulnerabilities than anyone except maybe Dennis.

Double decker deal breaker.

That's a dealbreaker issue for me, because I equate it with a basic philosophy that all men AND women are created equal that a president I vote for MUST have. And if they say, yes, I feel that way, but no, I'm not pro-choice, then they don't get what it's all about.

But the fact that he had to be brought around to that point of view makes me wonder how hard he would fight for it. With Dean there's absolutely no question.

If he didn't have the majority of support from the democratic base?

of the democratic base. Unless the democratic base has become that 2 percent support from the Green-Radical fringe that DK seems to attract. I like the Green-Radical fringe just fine, they are good people. There just aren't all that many of them.

Not a flame at DK, I like some of his ideas and think we need him as a leader in the House.

Just a flame at the notion that the candidate running dead last has done so by appealing to the base. The illogic here is baffling.

Everything was going fine without it! /sarcasm

And I do like Kucinich, Dean...he's ok but I wish he wasn't such a politician. *asbestos suit ready*

He doesn't have Dean's moxy and sheer gall. Dean has this presence about him that just says "Do NOT fuck with me on this" and people tend not to. He has the mojo to get the Democratic Party away from the McAuliffes that have seized it and screwed it like a twenty dollar whore for their own power and prestige, and lost election after election in the process.

If you could take DK's mind and words and mix them with Dean's gall - THERE'S the dream candidate. But I have to go with Dean because he has the stuff to set this straight, when it all comes out in the wash.

pfft... dean looked like a deer in headlights in the last debate on a COUPLE of ??? till DK came in an ko'd ted ;->

kucinich was the tallest on the stage that night.

peace

I agree and like Kucinich on every point but I am supporting so and so because DK is unelectable. Sigh thats sad.

in reference to any candidate?

That's good news.

I get what I mention a lot sadly. Sigh. All will be good in the end I hope.

You can't use that incident to suggest Dean hasn't been a hard hitter in all this. I need only point you to the long list of threads weeping and wailing over his "anger".

It's not as if it's some mystical thing.

I do prefer DK, but he won't win. Dean might, and I think Dean is better than Clark.

of a TV station and other military madness

It's a pretty silly reason to like Dean. Is Dean going to run on your proposed platform? ;)

"because he's more liberal/less military/whatever,..."

and I refuse to even consider voting for any of them in the general election.

Any candidate who comes out and denounces the new anti-Dean ad will be reconsidered even for my vote in the primary, but until then I'm for Dean or nobody at all.

The Democratic Party has declared war on Dean. I'm siding with Dean on this one.

Great book by a true homespun original. Unfortunately, he got off on a serious libertarian bent with his division of the history of the U.S. into AR and BR (Before and After Roosevelt) and the theory that the social safety net somehow screwed up the national psyche, but he was dead-on with many other observations.

The principal cultist/religious trait displayed by the more fervent Deanies is the belief that everything good about him is true and from the heart--rather than tactical or circumstantial--and everything bad is some kind of distortion or somehow explainable. He is above reproach to these people, and it's often ridiculous: many of these people would benefit from a more liberal/progressive platform than his, but they're actively fighting against their own interests.

That they do not see the shortcomings or their own behavior is scary. That they contort, distort and rationalize the Dean's opportunism and flip flopping is frightening. I'm very nervous about an NBD undercurrent around here.

Perfect. :-) Nailed it.

But more importantly, People are drawn to the campaign. Kucinich's campaign isn't like Dean's. None of the other campaigns are like Deans.

What about his very recent flip-flop on choice?? In my opinion, if he cared about women's rights, he should have cared about them well before he suddenly noticed last year the right wingers were trying to take them all away. That's pretty much been the point of women's rights groups for decades.

And before you flame me, I am just making the point that NO candidate has pure as driven snow leftie credentials.

I think that is what Malloy was saying.

As for why I prefer Dean, it's not because he's more liberal than anyone. It's because he's moderate plus a decent guy. So I think he's going to govern in a practical way (necessary in a 50/50 country) and achieve good things. But also he's got a good sense of right and wrong, and he's not going to deliberately screw we the people. If you want to understand Deanies, just think in practical terms - that's what many of us do, and that's why many of us are backing him.

Similarly, Deanies, if you prefer the Dr. to Clark, because he's more liberal/less military/whatever, shouldn't Kucinich be your candidate?

No. You have set up a strawman argument ("if you prefer Dean to Clark because he's more liberal/less military..."). There are reasons I prefer Dean, and those reasons have nothing to do with Clark or Kucinich. In fact, I like Clark and despise Kucinich.

It's just the overall Dean picture beats out the overall Clark picture for me. I'll still gladly back either.

not off its axis...

Talk about utter disrespect for other democrats.

What I wrote was very mild.

I think it's true that the enthusiasm for Dean among his true-believers goes beyond logic. He's a vessel people fill with meaning.

He's a little light on the policy proposals, yet people seem very sure what he'd do, becuase they can see inside his soul. Yet, everything he has actually done is extremely business friendly and contradicsts the notion that he is going to dramatically change what's really wrong with American society today.

I look forward to your future desperate attempts to marginalize our campaign.

Dean provides the meaning. You'd only have to take the blinders off to see it. Unless you have something fundamental against supporters running a campaign.

Again, I look forward to seeing exactly how desperate and vitriolic your comments get before you ultimately join our campaign.

to be. Like anger, it's an easy tone to take.

What's hard, and what's useful, is thoughtful analysis. Which is what I think I'm doing when I point out that Dean is a cipher and that logic generally doesn't explain much of the attraction.

(And you only need to peruse the post here to figure that out.)

You can look forward to me being insulting. But you'll probably have a long time to wait. I still have a lot more thoughtful analysis I can do before I have to fall back on insults.

At the risk of insulting you, however, I have to say that you should reread the rest of your post. It's...well...strange. That's the kind of thing I'd write if my goal were to sabotage support for Dean.

Such a mystery.

Calling supporters of Dean "Deanies" is inflammatory.

Please reaview the rules for starting threads in the General Discussion forum.