Uniformed US Colonel admits to hostage taking to Wash. Post

I felt this deserved its own GD thread. This is what they are calling, uh, aggressive tactics.

"Col. David Hogg, commander of the 2nd Brigade of the 4th Infantry Division, said tougher methods are being used to gather the intelligence. On Wednesday night, he said, his troops picked up the wife and daughter of an Iraqi lieutenant general. They left a note: "If you want your family released, turn yourself in." Such tactics are justified, he said, because, "It's an intelligence operation with detainees, and these people have info." They would have been released in due course, he added later."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A54345-2003Jul27.html

This man has admitted to kidnapping and hostage taking for the purpose of gathering intelligence, and threatening their indefinite detention if his demands were not met. Supposed intent to release them later isn't, to me, relevant.

I will be polite and not use the language I might use to describe this.

Jesus, the things the * Cartel have wrought.

...one kidnapping at a time.

Holding my tongue on this is really difficult.

TERRORISM!!!

the terrorist win.

cause I just couldn't believe it. I'm just speechless....

Illegal war, illegal occupation, illegal tactics.

No wonder they hate us.

The rest of the article is on premium content, but here is the teaser opening paragraph:

US troops turn botched Saddam raid into a massacre
By Robert Fisk in Baghdad
28 July 2003

Obsessed with capturing Saddam Hussein, American soldiers turned a botched raid on a house in the Mansur district of Baghdad yesterday into a bloodbath, opening fire on scores of Iraqi civilians in a crowded street and killing up to 11, including two children, their mother and crippled father. At least one civilian car caught fire, cremating its occupants.

Article Length: 644 words (approx.)

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/fisk/story.jsp?story=428199

and we're the bad guys

. . . same story.

http://www.infoshop.org/inews/stories.php?story=03/07/28/7073554

Bush is authorized to wage war upon Belgium to free him.

So I don't think even if it is a war crime that it means crap.

A forest, someone find me a forest where I can be alone and yell my head off!!!

Rot in hell Bush, PNAC, Ashcroft, Cheny, Rumsfeld, Blair, War apologists, political War enablers, the whole stinking lot!

Yes, as an occupying power, the US cannot take civilian hostages

Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War
UN Document Series Symbol: ST/HR/
UN Issuing Body: Secretariat Centre for Human Rights
© United Nations

Adopted on 12 August 1949 by the Diplomatic Conference for the Establishment of International Conventions for the Protection of Victims of War, held in Geneva from 21 April to 12 August, 1949

Article 3

In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each Party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions:

1. Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.

To this end, the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:

(a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;

(b) Taking of hostages;

(c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment;

(d) The passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.

http://www.hri.ca/uninfo/treaties/93.shtml

not of an international character" an out because the War on Terrorism is supposedly international?

In any case, the incident is more bad news for AWOL and his flock of Chicken-Hawks. If the war against Iraq had moral support, then such things might be overlooked, but in this case I hope it stays in the news for weeks.
:bounce:

It's just a minor inconvenience. Bet if he could figure out a way for the US to unsign he would.

The photo op and publication of photos of the bodies of Saddam's sons proves this... He's such a freaking moron.

And from the sound of it, this is not peace-keeping, but the urban warfare they thought they had avoided. And now we're being told that the 39 US dead are a "bargain" because the Iraqi dead are 300?! (not that I trust these numbers, but is that where we're at? shades of Vietnam.)

This article makes it all sound very upbeat. But I can't help wondering if they are under orders to give only positive-sounding comments to journalists. The story of that one town that got surrounded seems ominous. And the daytime raids--where civilians "get in the way"??! And they think there's a prayer of winning "hearts and minds"? (I hate that phrase.)

I have to admit to not following the daily news of the military in Iraq recently. I now see that this is no time to lose focus. Thanks for this posting--it's a LONG, revealing article (for all the de rigour optimism of the officers). Without exactly saying so, there's evidence here that the officers are LYING.

I just cut and pasted the most heinous outrage I could find in it, which I felt deserved its own thread.

And the bottom line is, the word has gone out to crush all negative opinions by soldiers that might leak to the press. A similar effort is underway to intimidate the soldiers' families into silence, saying that any negative opinion about the war will encourage Iraqi attacks and lead to American deaths. Officers have been told that careers are on the line, and that those in the 3rd infantry brigade whose men talked to ABC, will not be promoted; their careers are finished. The men cannot be disciplined by law because they are not officers, but their officers can in their stead. Aggressive promotion of the government line is considered vital for one's career in the current climate.

Thanks for that explanation. I hadn't read about how they were shutting up the troops (though I suspected it). I have a very sick feeling that things are very much worse than we are imagining even here on this thread.

...our military to incredible depravity.

This is integrity? Kidnapping? Turning a botched raid into a bloodbath? Yeah, throwing flowers...

There is not mention that kidnapping is illegal. Isn't this some breach of the Geneva Convention at least?

Excerpt:

The tactic worked. On Friday, Hogg said, the lieutenant general appeared at the front gate of the U.S. base and surrendered.

What's next? Are we going to burn villages that might be aiding the VC?

"We have your son/daughter and will kill him/her unless you show us where the WMD are hidden!"

9/11 report advises U.S. spy chiefs to learn from Israel

http://www.israel21c.org/bin/en.jsp?enPage=BlankPage&enDisplay=view&enDispWhat=Zone&enDispWho=InThePress&enZone=InThePress&Date=7/27/03%208:00%20PM

" American intelligence services should take a leaf out of Israel's book and cooperate with its security services to learn how to acquire intelligence from human sources, says the report from the U.S. congressional inquiry into the events of September 11, 2001, Ha'aretz reported. In its recommendations the report calls for a new agency that "should endeavor to learn from both the successes and failures" of Israel's "humint" (human intelligence) strategy. "Their aggressive tactics and inventive use of non-official covers may serve as a useful guide for this new agency," the report continues. "The Israelis have had notable successes in penetrating terrorist organizations and we should learn from their efforts." The congressional panel of inquiry advises that this new agency, if established, "may also want to consider some level of partnership with the Israeli humint services, given the amount of overlap in the terrorism and proliferation threats to both our national interests." "

Originally posted here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=2572&mesg_id=2572&listing_type=search

CIA holds young sons of captured al-Qa'eda chief
By Olga Craig
(Filed: 09/03/2003)


Two young sons of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the suspected mastermind of the September 11 attacks, are being used by the CIA to force their father to talk.

Yousef al-Khalid, nine, and his brother, Abed al-Khalid, seven, were taken into custody in Pakistan last September when intelligence officers raided a flat in Karachi where their father had been hiding.

<snip>

Their father, Mohammed, 37, is being interrogated at the Bagram US military base in Afghanistan. He is being held in solitary confinement and subjected to "stress and duress"-style interrogation techniques. He has been told that his sons are being held and he is being encouraged to divulge future attacks against the West and talk about the whereabouts of Osama bin Laden.

<snip>

"His sons are important to him. The promise of their release and their return to Pakistan may be the psychological lever we need to break him."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=%2Fnews%2F2003%2F03%2F09%2Fwalqa09.xml




---------
Monday :: March 10, 2003 (This is a mixture of post and article so I took a few paragraphs from each)

U.S. Interrogating Children

We're shocked that this hasn't gotten more coverage. We are outraged. The CIA has acknowledged that last September, the seven and nine year old sons of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, arrested last week and alleged to be a "mastermind" of the 9/11 attacks, were seized by Pakistani authorites, and that this weekend, the kids were turned over to the CIA and then flown to America so that the young boys could be interrogated in an undisclosed location about their father's activities and used to get their father to talk.

<snip>

He fled just hours before the raid, but his two young sons, along with another senior al Qaeda member, were found cowering behind a clothes closet in the apartment.

The boys have been held by the Pakistani authorities, but this weekend they were flown to America, where they will be questioned about their father.

CIA interrogators confirmed last night that the boys were staying at a secret address where they were being encouraged to talk about their father's activities.... has been told that his sons are being held and is being encouraged to divulge future attacks against the West and talk about the location of Osama bin Laden, officials said.

"His sons are important to him. The promise of their release and their return to Pakistan may be the psychological lever we need to break him."

First, let's translate. The operative and missing word from that last sentence is "safe." As in what Mohammed is really being told is that something awful will befall his sons if he doesn't cooperate. Legal? Probably. It's also morally bankrupt. But let's leave the father out of this for the moment. Our concern is the kids.

Isn't this kidnapping? How about a human rights violation? What kind of precedent does this set? Seven and nine years old -- has this Administration lost its mind?

We didn't realize that enemy combatant status was hereditary. A lawyer and a guardian ad litem should be appointed for these kids immediately. The kids should be returned home without delay to whatever family they have left. This is taking "sins of the father" to an unprecedented and unconscionable level.

http://www.talkleft.com/archives/002547.html

and like the anti-nazi Germans, it is our duty and responsibility to bring this regime down and bring its leaders to justice.

However, we stand little chance of defeating them at the ballot box. They will not give up power and they are not about to let a minor thing like elections get in their way of achieving absolute power.

If Bush is reappointed for another term, I am leaving this "shitty little country" for Canada. I am not going to wait to be herded into a concentration camp!

This is old hat to the USA.

It started with the ethnic cleansing and genocide of the native American Indians and hasn't stopped since.

They are NOT going to leave dently for that good night. They have too much to still do and to much to hide to allow ANYONE else, Democratic or decent Republican, to be rummaging around in their files and asking questions. No, they will remain in the White House as long as they can pulling every dirty trick in the book.

America may soon have it's first obvious coup. There's no way, we the people can tolerate this!

Whats next? shooting 10 Iraqis for every US soilder killed? Or are we doing that already? They seemed to have killed plenty of innocent bystanders when they raided that house that Saddam wasn't in.

..."Isn't USA the greatest country on Earth!" threads a few days ago... :grr:

for suggesting that America did not have a "special dispensation" from the Almighty to make the world right. And the offense that many took when it was suggested that Americans were not wiser than people in other nations.

fuckers :mad:

vendettas, kidnappings, extortions ......

Welcome to George "Don Corleone" Bush.

The parallels just get worse and worse.

This guy makes Tony Soprano look like a saint.

So do we Support Our Brave Troops as they kidnap Iraqi families, interrogate seven year olds about their father's activities and mow down innocent people in the street (e.g. raiding the house where Saddam wasn't) ?

ransom for information. Even if there is no intent to injure the children, it is evil.

It's not America that I hate. I love America. I hate what Bush and his people are doing to my beloved country.

I know that I am just a bleeding heard liberal boy scout, but this is a sad day for a great country.

I'm calling my congressmen and my senator tonight to demand that there be an inquiry into this obscene behavior. Today I am ashamed to be an American and I really don't like that feeling. How does something like this happen in a country that has at it's heart a document like the Constitution? The Bush administration aren't just ignoring the Consitution, they are burning it and pissing on the ashes, what the hell is wrong with them?

they will one day return home and be members of our society. They shouldn't have to be ashamed of their service to their country.

Geneva Convention, War Crimes.

you just don't DO that shit to kids. how many children now growing up in the mideast are there that will someday want to do harm to our children? compassion for the situation aside this is a stupid F**KING way to assure security!!!!! aarghhhh........ :grr: