Post Saddam capture (D) Presidential preference poll

I think this is necessary under the circumstances to see if there is or is not an effect on the Democratic race.

I'm still trying to figure out why Saddam's capture would or should have any effect whatsoever on the Democratic race.

How do we challenege that in a post 9/11, post Saddam world?

Why must this be repeated so much? We have a case to make - let's get out there and make it. Lying back and sorrowfully conceding to public ignorance is not the answer at all.

You have something to say. SAY IT.

Saved us from the terrorists?

Where is Osama? What is happening in Afghanistan? Why are the Taliban gaining control?

And why are terrorists allowed to plot attacks against America, while GW Bush chased Saddam around the desert, looking for WMDs that the evidence said were simply NOT there?

How many Americans died in Iraq to get Saddam, when we essentially had Iraq under the glass bowl of isolation, examination, and non-proliferation?

The terrorists are still out there America, and the sad truth is that Gorge W Bush used the lives of your children to take out a ruthless (but emasculated) dictator to distract you from our failure to catch Osama, and to settle a decade old score between Bush's father and Saddam.

Bush is a war criminal, not a leader.

produced by the Clinton boys and the expertise of the boys at the top in media manipulation

You can watch both video, but the one I'm talking about is the Osama video

http://www.progressivevalues.com/default.asp?ID=2

Aside from the suspicious timing... why did they not use Sadaam? After all, he's the one we poured all this effort into going after, WTC and all...

====================================
America is at a crossroads, facing perhaps the most important Presidential election in a generation. That’s why Americans for Jobs, Healthcare and Progressive Values was formed.

Our mission is to inform and educate citizens as to the various presidential candidates’ stands on critical issues facing American families related to jobs, healthcare and progressive values.

The Honorable Edward F. Feighan, President

"About Us"

Former Congressman Edward Feighan is the President of Americans for Jobs, Health Care & Progressive Values. He is also currently the Chairman, President and Chief Executive Officer of ProCentury Corporation, the parent of the Century Insurance Group based in Columbus, Ohio. The Century Insurance Group is a specialty-lines insurer, writing commercial property/casualty insurance for niche markets nationwide, operating in 49 States and has annual gross premiums of approximately $175 million. Mr. Feighan has served as member of the board of directors of ProCentury since October, 2000.

Mr. Feighan served 20 consecutive years in elected office beginning in 1972. He served as a State Representative for six years, a Cuyahoga County Commissioner for four years, and as member of the United States House of Representatives for ten years. Congressman Feighan has been recognized as a leading authority on foreign policy and international trade and finance.

Since departing Congress in 1993, Congressman Feighan has served as a member of the Commission on Privatization in Russia; the U.S. Commission for Improving the United Nations; the Board of Trustees of the National Democratic Institute for International Affairs; the National Council of International Programs; and the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Museum.

From 1996 to 1998, Mr. Feighan served as the Senior Vice President, founding President, CEO and director of Century Business Services, Inc. (NASDAQ: CBIZ). Century Business Services was recognized as the Best Growth Company in Ohio in 1999 by the Cleveland Plain Dealer.

Mr. Feighan is also a founding partner of American Foreign Capital Partners (AFCAP). Maintaining offices in Cleveland, Ohio and St. Petersburg, Russia, AFCAP represents several multi-national businesses in the former Soviet Union. From 1998 until Mr. Feighan joined the senior management of Century Insurance Group, he served as the Managing Partner of Alliance Financial, Limited, a Cleveland, Ohio-based firm specializing in mergers, acquisitions and merchant banking services.

http://www.progressivevalues.com/default.asp?ID=3

====

Edward F. Feighan was Bill Clinton's campaign Communications Director who got pretty close to Hillary at the Institute for Policy Studies
http://www.ips-dc.org/index.htm

It was Edward F. Feighan who introduced the Brady Bill in the House in 1987 as the NRA campaigned heavily against the gun control issue. http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/Aborn1.html

George Stephanopoulos was his Administrative Assistant and later his Chief of Staff.
http://63.147.65.175/books/chap0411b.htm

Served on the Clinton Administration: Committee on Health, Education, Labor & Pensions
http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/dward/classes/congpres/sim00.html


Neo-cons
vs
Centrists
vs
Progressives
vs
Corporations
vs
sincere, confused people, who don't have a clue about what's really going on

thx Tinoire

Then 'Merkans are hopeless.
Truly.

It's all smoke and mirrors... You saw what Saddam looked like. Does anyone actually believe he was leading the attacks against our troops? Unfortunatley, the carnage will continue. I pray for the safety of our sons and daughters.

unless you have been listening to too much spin today...

Let's see what the poll says OK.

n/t

VOTE

he must be on DU. He voted for himself!

:evilgrin:

"osama is the one who blew the airplanes out of the sky"...
And I will add with bush's national security at the wheel albeit ASLEEP!

sadam is rummy's man...let's hear what sadam has to say.

would we remember or care about Sadam? Or will Bush pull out Bunny bin Laden out of his hat on election day?

I would expect the Saddam trial to drown out the election. It's all in the timing.

His trial will conclude about a week before the election. The media is nothing more than another arm of the Smirk government. THe trial will be just another pageant in the re-election campaign.

For quite awhile, I have not voted in these polls, as I believed them to be skewed. Then, after I read the following post, in my view and in the view of quite a number of other DUers, these polls mean squat.

Skinner ADMIN (1000+ posts) Mon Dec-08-03 02:11 PM
Response to Original message

46. I'm shutting this down.


Our server logs indicate that we've had an influx of new registrations from at least one clark website who logged on to vote in the poll.

I want to say welcome to all of you -- I'm impressed by your enthusiasm. I hope you'll stick around. But in the future I'd prefer if you avoided freeping our polls.

I have instructed Elad to program a new function so that this will no longer be possible.

plenty of us are not voting until the anti-freeping software goes in.

And they always seem a little skewed.

I'm sure there are quite a few.

Of course, it is still early.

:kick:

This will probably be the first reliable poll of Democratic primary voters we see after today's events.

eom

How can it be reliable when so many DUers are not voting?

The more people that vote the more legit the poll is.

will not make it more legit.

The people voting in this poll are the same people that voted in previous polls.

But keep on thinking that.

candidates. I know that you prefer to ignore that. Nevertheless, it's true.

because I have the count of Dean supporters that did not vote in this poll and will not vote in this type of poll in the future.

I also believe in Santa Claus and the tooth fairy. :eyes:

So... you think that Deanies don't freep polls? Oh, come on!
And, besides, as an Independent (and member of this board since Wes Clark announced), you Dean people need to realize that there is no way in Heaven or Hell that Dean will beat Bush. Please... for the sake of this country, Dems, put someone up against Bush that can beat him: someone who can appeal to the Independents and moderate Democrats in the South. Geez. We need to get rid of Bush - not vote for some loud-mouth who won't appeal to anyone outside of the less than 30 percent of voters who are the so-called "Democratic base" (I think it's telling that Dean doesn't even have the support of 80 percent of those people, to be honest).
If you guys can't learn that the best person to beat Bush is Clark, then I just don't know when you'll ever learn.
Hell, Kuninich (whom I like A LOT) has less negatives than Dean.
Clark does best against Bush in nearly every poll.
Clark appeals to Independents.
Clark appeals to moderate Southern Democrats.
Clark appeals to disgruntled Republicans.
That's more than 60 percent of the vote, guys! Come on!!

Oh, yeah, Clark is also thoughtful enought to help cute little kids learn how to salute, too. :)

then win with Clark. I can't believe that so many people are willing to sell out our party for a short term victory.Oh, that's right, you aren't a member of our party! I think that says it all. Clark can win , so can Dean, but with a Clark win the party is finished.

Reagan would have beat bush too, too bad he's not available.

Taxes, keep records secret, attacks democrats, silver spoon in his mouth, gets medical deferment but goes skiing, weak on National Defense. Cuts social programs. No foriegn policy experience. Yeah, some value. :shrug:

"with a Clark win the party is finished" - how so? This is not flamebait. I'm vascillating between Kucinich, Clark and Dean and I feel Clark has the best chance of beating Bush. Of course, my dream candidate is Kucinich but I don't think that's a realistic way to spend my vote.

Please tell me what it is you dislike about Clark (besides that he's a military man and that he has voted Republican in the past. So have I, and therefore, I know people can change.)

I saw the ATA threads .. (the ref to "clark sites" has been removed . fyi)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=120&topic_id=8295


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=120&topic_id=8279

Clark has around 40 supporters total and they all voted. Strange days, my friends...

Why isn't Lamar! on this poll?! Bias, I say!

Of registered Dems, I think. Last national poll Lieberman was up on your candidate, wasn't he?

Hard to understand why the Lieb(R)man is not doing better in this poll after the war was proven to be Right with Saddam's capture. My crystal ball says that in the real world Liebs is gonna see the gain, not Clark.

Nationwide, Clark is at 43%.

:kick:

Notes from the uncommitted.

I still think highly of the two frontrunners, Clark and Dean. I still agree with Kucinich more than either of them, but still think either would make a better president for other reasons (not to mention that DK isn't going to win, anyway).

Kerry spoke highly of his vote for the IWR today, and that hurt him in my view; however, Kerry was becoming irrelevant, anyway.

Edwards has a chance to move up in my view.

Of Lieberman's remarks, the less said the better.

DU is going to become increasingly hostile to Dean voters in the next two to three months. Polls and threads like this are only traps to incite Dean voters to say something that can cause the alert button to be hit.

Your guy is only 9 votes down. Why not rally Dean supporters to come here and vote? thus proving that the dynamics of the race have not changed.

I would encourage anyone who supports their candidate show some passion in their defense.

Dean (n/t)

anyhow .. just theirs ..

If DU has become an anti-Dean organizing tool for Dean bashers... I see little reason to put time, energy, or money into this board, let alone these Dean bashing threads.

It is one thing to have folks who dislike Dean to express their opinion, but to use DU as a tool to organize AGINST a democratic candidate, well I'm just really disappointed the mods are allowing it.

I mean when a Dean supporter gets messages deleted for calling it a lie to say Dean was against civil unions, yet posts comparing Dean supporters to the folks at Jonestown are perfectly acceptable, one can't help but notice the imbalance.

Requests to freep polls on DU are against the rules, but requests to freep the democratic candidates are fine?

Shame to see this happen to DU.

Please add another vote for my wife. She wants Clark too.

Now more than ever! America needs General Wesley Clark!

But I really don't think Saddam's capture will change the landscape among the Dem candidates as much as some people seem to think. I just don't foresee Dean supporters jumping ship and switching to Lieberman, for instance. I think everyone who has made up their minds by this point will stick with their guy (or gal). It depends on whether or not the undecided Democrats (and there are still plenty of them) take Saddam's capture into account when deciding who to vote for in the primary as to which candidates will be hurt or helped by this development.

Clark.

and your third post at DU! :hi:

and to the Clark campaign! :hi:

quoted
Do you think "Did they vote for the war" is overplayed?
Considering a candidates past voting experience or actions do you think the "war" vote is a position that is being used too much as a litmus test while their other views may be being ignored?

It's really being used as a question of judgement. Who was able to demonstrate decision making skills.

First, if you narrow it down to the IWR *vote* (stance on *war* at that time), and agree that everyone comes out even on that score, (even Lieberman, who still thinks it was a good idea) ... BUT you also have to leave open the option that the nominee (whoever it is) can take on the potus on that issue (stance on *war* at that time), you will also need to agree that any of the nine have that ability to the same degree, starting there.

That's not going to be too tough with all the investigations, leaks, lawsuits, not too secret plans to "take out Sa**ham", at any cost no less... If he tries to bring the troops home before the election (not likely imo), is Ira* going to hold together long enough? I think there is enough stinky for anyone of them to nail him. ..IF they will, and that's how they can demonstrate their loyalty to we, the people. I don't hide the fact that I support HD. He has been calling *u*h on his sh*t since I first heard him. The rhetoric he chose was to distinguish himself from "dems" who voted with the res, on several issues .. it's not just about Ir*q. Tax cuts, NCLB, invasion of privacy laws and disregarding our constitution ... all these are open season. If someone voted for these laws, let them defend or modify or whatever to get to the point where things stand NOW. They all have positions on these issues.

To move forward from there, most of them agree there will need to be some kind of long term commitment to fix this fiasco and restore human dignity, social justice, and humane living conditions to many populations (us, them, our former allies) etc ...
During the debate, I think it was Gephardt who said it best, that for matters like this you don't have a time line you have a goal line. I heard Clark pick that up as well. Kucinich is the only one I know for sure wants un in us out. I think he is willing to give total control to the un, which doesn't relate to the *vote*, and also, by terms of the agreement, couldn't use his vote to prove he is the best one to bring peace. The point of agreement would be, what went down was not *right*. Some people are responsible but many are innocent, and we need to reassign the true architect of the plan, and move on to make reparations to the innocent at home and abroad. We all know potus doesn't have a plan, other than getting reselected and playing dress up with toy turkeys. Since his course of action is totally unpredictable, except to escalate tensions all over the world, our solutions have nothing to do with his non-solutions.

And then the deck is cleared to go onto other issues besides the *IWR vote*.

Assuming we agreed to a level playing field on the *IWR vote*, iow, what is done is done, and any of them are fit to battle *u*h on the issue, no matter what they said or did at the time of the vote ..

Other issues come into play. One example, is they could not compare their specific experience to war with someone else's. You can't say 'Dean was a dodger' (bad judgement) or 'Kerry, the vet should have known better' (bad judgement). To make the topic about now and the future, issues relating to any *past* wars has to be disregarded.

I don't know if that makes any sense...
But things have to balance out. You can't say, well I fought the *past* war(s), and now I know how to bring peace, but someone else who didn't fight a past war (for whatever reason) doesn't know how to bring about peace . because that is not the correct judgement question either. After all, do we want someone who can fight great wars or someone who knows how to make peace?

If you clear away a bunch of that garbage, yeah, it might work.
There are plenty of other issues to hammer out, which would move us forward, possibly strengthening whoever the nominee is. by-gones.

OTOH . I think Dean might be more open to this agreement than Kerry or Clark would be. If they quit arguing about what the exact meaning of the B-L amendment was (part of the deal) -- after all that's why we do have courts in our land -- they might find they don't need to play up the military angle. And indeed, by the agreement can't use that as a justification for being the better "leader". I don't know if they would want to make that trade? It depends on how they use their judgement NOW, not on an historic battle field. It depends on how important that is to the candidates themselves. (I'm not implying they can't have a resume'. They just can't use the *war issue* (past) to beat up another candidate's *war issue* (past).)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=886012#886627

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=886012

and Deanies will no longer terrorize everyone else for no longer screamimg as loud as Dean pretends he did.
So, it will boil down to qualifications. My guy is looking pretty good.
of course, the media is still going to push *D, but people won't buy the fait accompli artifice anymore.

:)

We will have to fight Bush on his grounds, on his turf and in his territory. We must beat him at his own game.

:kick:

It's Morning in America again. Wake up and smell the coffee.

..and if that is the issue we must run our strongest candidate on national defense and foreign policy. If we do not--we will have a very rough time of it. As Gen. Clark put it--we are the party of compassion--now we need to be more than that.

We are blessed that Gen. Clark on domestic issues is progressive and in line with us being the party "of the people." We can finally have a candidate the republicans will have a hard time painting as weak on defense.

The better the "news" for Bush--the more I am convinced we need the General.

Please continue to post more often. DU is best when commonsense prevails.

And, that's a fact.

:kick:

:kick:

:kick:

:kick:

Democracy/Freedom is a beautiful thing. :toast:

According to Pastiche (and apparently skinner), Clark supporters
are "Freeping" the polls on DU

If so, then that is terrible.

If not, then it's kind of amazing that he tends to win
poll after poll on DU.

---

If time reveals that the polls here are legit, maybe that is the
best sign yet for the Clark campaign because people here are
actually paying attention.

I missed that one. I know that one Deanie did a test to show us how it's done by starting a new account. I don't know that it has been verified that Clarkies were opening multiple accounts to "freep" polls. That just doesn't sound like us. Does it?

I do not recall seeing Skinner or any DU moderator post anything about any Clark website sending out people to register on DU for the purpose of making the Clark vote much larger on DU polls.

I just don't trust any of the diehard anti-Clarkies to be honest about this.

maybe Elad was able to fix it.

Cool. They're members. They know where to find DU.

I'd actually like to see a link to an actual post by Skinner or a moderator before I believe it. I've looked for such a post, but still cannot find one.

Clark wins these polls all the time. It's the will of DU!

is not "freeping." They join DU. They contribute in discussion and financially just like everyone else. Getting our supporters to join is not an unfair advantage. It would only be an unfair advantage if only we were able to do that. Clark is not the only candidate with a blog who has supporters who have joined DU. So that whole charge is bogus.

and I do think it is amazing that Clark wins almost all of
the DU straw polls time and time again.

Perhaps Koppel should visit DU to see what Democrats who
pay attention are thinking.

I wouldnt want to say it was conclusive evidence.....lets just call it coinicidence?

as I always do on this board.
I think that today's news only underscores what we Clark fans have been saying over and over: we need someone who has some foreign policy experience who can go toe-to-toe with (or in this case heads and shoulders above) Bush.
Democrats cannot put someone in a post-9/11 or post Saddam-captured era who has no real foreign policy goals or experience. "I told you so" is NOT a policy!
Vote Clark: For REAL leadership!

We all know it.

or Saddamizing as the case may be

Clark even beats the combined Dean-Kucinich vote! My honest advice to Dean supporters would be to try and win over Kucinich supporters. He may never drop out of the race, but if peels off 2,3,4 or 5% in each primary that could be very damaging to Dean in a close race.

:kick:

Considering the decent amount of hard core Kerry supporters here on DU. But then again, he might have lost a lot of people after several of his comments on the talk shows. I for one have totally ruled him out for getting my primary vote after his negative comments and I might have to seriously consider my Dem affiliation if he gets the nomination. Right now, I'm still ABB/L, but if Kerry goes off into the "deep end" again a few more times, I may have to change it to ABB/L/K....

I voted for Clark, but there are Dean people that are not voting.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=896703&mesg_id=896703

But we know the real deal. ;)

Will it be Dean or DK?

:kick:

:kick:

oh and by the way I'm not "freeping" this poll! :eyes:

Remember the DU skew runs to Clark. Dean looks marginally faded, but I'll bet that's a statistical anomaly. Unless I see posts from ex Deanies who are now pulling for the General, I'd say the arrest of a pathetic homeless man in Tikrit don't mean shit for the Democrats.

:kick:

:kick:

As a gold star member of DU I resent the statement that my vote might be the vote of a freeper. You guys jumped me when when I said the Gore endorsement was not such a great thing, but that's because I'm just anti-Dean. Wrong. I was writing letters to the guy two years ago,okay. I just don't think he has as good a chance as Clark, and his positions are all over the place of late. It's just really a mistake to let the media set anyone up as a frontrunner before anyone has cast a vote in a primary.

The whole idea of running left for the primaries and then running center for the general election just seems somehow manipulative. With Rove around, can anyone blame anyone for having to resort to every possible tactic?

But my support for Clark got even stronger today.

:shrug:

But I still like Dean. I am so angry at the way the media is treating him today. Shame on them! I refuse to watch anymore TV news after I saw what some morons were saying on CNN and Faux.

:kick: Kick It! :kick:

:kick:

I'm going to bed now. See you in about 6 hours.

and have a plesant tomorrow.

are "freepers". :( I have NEVER voted twice, three times or four times under different acct. names and I think it's insulting to be accused of such. I also hope my fellow Clark supporters aren't doing that. I, however, see NOTHING wrong with Clark supporters coming to DU, signing up to join...and voting in the polls. They are Democrats who are supporting their candidate. I guess a poll is legitimate ONLY if Dean wins it. Sad, very sad.

I DO hope that DU is an indicator to how the rest of the country will be voting. :bounce:

:kick:

This changes nothing.

I think the 30pt Dean lead is going to diminish dramatically this week, but I could be wrong...

:kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick:

I liked your post with the kicking donkeys. I voted for Clark. Once.

Vote! It's democracy!

:kick:

:dem:

:kick:

1000 votes!

Be very Afraid! The vast majority of Americans want General Wesley Clark for President. Your boy dubya don't have a chance.

:kick:

:kick:

the person who may lie to us (supposely to save lives which is the same reason Bush gives). Only in America! Next stop the WHITE HOUSE!

:kick:

as always.

Hussein's capture only enhances the plan he's been advocating from the beginning of his campaign, UN in, US out in 90 days. You got the "bad guy" now get our kids the hell out of harm's way!

Dean has narrowed the gap slightly. I am hoping for 1000 votes.

:kick:

:kick:

:kick:

:evilgrin:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=120&topic_id=8799

:kick:

the last 3 days and have not had a chance to vote yet.

:kick:

and have not had a chance to vote.

:kick:

Have that many Dean-supporters switched, or is the Dean exodus really happening?

Did you meet President Clark in you journey?

to vote.

It's not all about the money.

Vote!

:kick:

:kick:

:kick:

:kick:

:shrug: Seems these candidates are showing their true colors indeed.

:kick:

:kick:

:KICK:

:kick:

Vote!

:kick:

:kick:

Good news for Democrats!

Go Clark.

:kick:

:dem:

:kick: