Howard Dean: The Goring has begun.

http://www.deanmcgovern.com

This is a website that is linked to via the Washington Post. It's in the same ad box, in fact, that the Dean For America website ad is, and it's located at the end of stories about Dean. So the Dean = McGovern thing is going to be out there in full fury should Dean win the nomination. The Republicans aren't just playing to win; they want a landslide.

Notice that everyone's favorite Dean picture is placed prominently on the front page. Those of you who resent the attacks made on Dean now better get ready for when the real attacks come. 200 million bucks will buy a lot of those signs, run a lot of commercials, buy a lot of opposition research.

So it's too new to be in their system. Probably in a couple of days.

As many know, I am decidedly NOT a supporter of the good Doctor's primary candidacy - for whom this country might well be mature enough to elect in about fifty years, but not this electoral cycle.

However and with that being said, I find this tragic. Some research on this piece of shit work:

Whois Server Version 1.3
Domain Name: DEANMCGOVERN.COM
Registrar: DOTSTER, INC.
Whois Server: whois.dotster.com
Referral URL: http://www.dotster.com
Name Server: DONALD.ALBANYWEB.COM
Name Server: DNS1.ARE-HOSTING.COM
Status: ACTIVE
Updated Date: 23-nov-2003
Creation Date: 30-oct-2003
Expiration Date: 30-oct-2004
>>> Last update of whois database: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 18:24:24 EST <<<

Hmmm.. not that new. Created October 30th. Seems to be an operation (probably some freeper's bedroom) out of Northern New York. Note the name server... Albany Web. Somewhat surprising that it has not been updated.... inquiring minds might be suspicious?

Also, the PO Box on their site is Troy New York. And, when you phone the toll free number and inquire as to what company you are calling, you are told "LJ Fufillment." A search finds the following:

L J Fulfillment Services
29 Mill St
Albany, NY 12204-2511 Phone: (518) 436-1722.

Anyone asked the White House for Karl Rove's travel schedule or phone records lately for any trips or calls to Albany?

Gotta love -whois-!

I hope we will make more use of this going forward to investigate and expose operations like this one.

I guess big media and the "others" don't like to see an outsider call them on their crap.

the poster said was that there was an attack site out there.

Dean supporters, you should consider a thank you to the poster. That way you can confont the issues addressed and counterpunch!

Both in temperament and tenacity.

He might have beem a liberal, but he had guts and fought for his convictions his entire life; in fact he's still doing it. So don't bother with the 'McGovern soft Dean tough' nonsense, because it only reveals what you don't know, not what Dean is. McGovern got crushed because he was the wrong candidate at the wrong time, not because of his 'temperament and tenacity,' both of which I prefer to Dean's. Dean's 'temperament,' in fact, is an issue on that webpage, with one of his many angry photographs prominently displayed. Now why is that?

Dean could do it with 9/11.

So why doesn't he do it?

Most of the people who even remember McGovern are old timers who are loyal to one party or the other and don't give a crap. The rest of the people old enough to remember weren't even paying attention in the first place. Oh, and the rest are dead.

I'm damn near 40 years old and I don't even remember McGovern and the comparison is just hot air that says and means nothing to me.

Now what were you worried about again? That a bunch of dumb old geriatric freeper farts get a teeny twitch in their little winkie over some irrelevent past election?

Silly don't you think...

process by far is the 'geriatric farts' to which you refer, I have to wonder just how much thinking you put into your post. Of course, 'McGovern' can be a word that is quickly given a definition by the media as 'loser,' which apparently has already been done, in fact, so it doesn't matter if anyone remembers the man, as long as they learn the definition -- which the media will almost certainly see to.

Finally, I'm not much older than you are, and I remember McGovern quite well. Perhaps I've simply been paying attention longer than most, but I also remember the night Humphrey lost to Nixon. I can't be the only one.

crap. All you're doing is trying to scare people on here into doubting Dean's electability. Anyone with more than one brain cell will see it for what it is.

Those old enough to remember McGovern will get out and vote in big numbers and they will vote Dem. Something some do not realize is old folks aren't too stupid. They remember fascism too and they see it laying it's nasty groundwork here.

Ignore the scare tactics veiled as false concern. More puggy tactics is all. The "goring" going on with Dean is being done mostly by "Democrats" (and I doubt many of them remember McGovern either, they merely recognize it as a helpful meme). :hi:

Julie

demonstrating that the 'geriatric farts' will vote for Dean? Or is it merely your opinion?

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they are attacking your opinion and your motives, which I too find suspect. They're not calling you names, just pointing out their observations.

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but I do think that a lot of people who remember McGovern will remember that if he had been elected, Nixon would not have been re-elected, there would not have been the only resignation of a President in the history of the United States and the disillusionment that resulted. Whether this means these people will vote for Dean or a Democrat now is completely hypothetical of course -- they might be more inclined to do so though, if they remember McGovern.

It's easier than dealing with the message.

Either you are sincere in believing you bring a message or you think us too stupid to see language framing and meme planting for what it is.

Julie

is still not an argument.

When you see people waving those signs, what are you going to do, yell 'meme' at them? When the talking heads compare Dean to McGovern, what are you going to do, write them letters accusing them of spreading 'memes?' I'm sure that will stop the smears cold. You should suggest this campaign tactic to the Deanite HQ. They're sure to run with it.

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This thread isn't about any message. It's about using fear tactics to try to influence how people vote. All I can say is that the only people who partake in this kind of behavior lack confidence in the ability of their candidate. :shrug:

Dean's strength was his ability to use the Internet to build a movement through Internet users then to get endorsements from some important unions that represent the Democratic core.

Dean's vulnerabilities are unique to him and to our present era.

He doesn't have the credentials to compete against the Republicans on national security. The fact that he's correct means nothing when the media will favor the incumbent.

He takes several potential bonafide attack issues off the table: governmental secrecy, the ascendance of the chickenhawks, Bush's military record, Cheney's energy alliances and even the coziness between government and corporate interests.

His fire and brimstone style are great in wooing a hardcore following, but may flop in the general election. He's not a camera friendly politician. I don't mind that but a lot of people will.

The McGovern comparision just doesn't stand at all.

i remember the day LBJ said that. i remember running into the kitchen to tell my parents.

Who else would you have me vote for--Nixon?

McGovern carried MY state by a landslide.

We were right, everyone else was wrong.

What a surprise!!!

Welcome to Stop Dean Underground.

:puke: :puke:

Watergate proved to everyone that Nixon's election was a huge mistake. The nice thing about this election is that the Dem's opponent has already proven himself to be untrustworthy before the election, and not after (as in 1972).

Also, I worked for the McGovern campaign in 1972, as an 8 year old stuffing envelopes, leaving campaign paraphernalia bags door-to-door... I still believe in him now, 31 years after the fact.

About dismissing older voters as irrelevant.

:kick:

I had to laugh at...Most of the people who even remember McGovern are old timers who are loyal to one party or the other and don't give a crap.

because those "old timers" are ME, I remember McGovern, I'm only 48 and was a junior in High School. Our Veterans, our elderly and ALL the baby boomers, a HUGE populace of people. All of whom VOTE in DROVES!

Now what were you worried about again? That a bunch of dumb old geriatric freeper farts get a teeny twitch in their little winkie over some irrelevent past election?

That is the kind of arrogant, presumptive attitude that loses elections. I might add, it's extremely disrespectful to refer to our elderly as "bunch of dumb old geriatric freeper farts " Didn't you say you are almost 40????? :eyes: Our elderly vote puts Democrats in office. You might like to remember that. JMCPO

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nt

The reason they are attacking Dean is his lead in the polls, this will happen to any democratic candidate. Democrats must not allow this to get them down, youmust not allow this tio become the key talking point. Remain focused on the issues, it is the issues that will make democrats prevail, if you allow the right wing to drag you into the mud America loses.

but they've got much nothing else to do yet.

I remember McGovern, but a bit more to the point, I remember what they did to McCain.

It's starting, and it won't be pretty.

they actually won in South Carolina with that. Make no mistake, they are trying to tear us apart so we elect the candidate they want to beat. Just look at who the press is easy on. It starts with an "L".

is Repuke rather than Dem.

And isn't that more than a little sad?

Sad indeed.

and he's an outsider who is not owned.

because he will not sit back and just take the hits.

Bush is Nixon.

Bush is Hitler

When/if Clark becomes the front runner, the treatment will differ exactly how?

I'm not a Deanie. My favorite candidate is in the wildly unelectable category. But calling me a Deanie won't work.

I mean, the Gored Gore. They're going to McGovern Dean. If they need to, they'll Dr. Strangelove Clark. Haven't you heard he's batty, and got kicked out of Bosnia, and all the other generals hated him.

Or maybe you didn't intend this to be an argument for Clark. In which case: My bad.

and the attacks from Dem VS Dem are only going to help them. My God, we are the Democratic party--even Will Rogers joked about how unorganized we are--and that was a hundred years ago!! If we don't become a monolith soon, we are really screwed. I am starting to think Terry Mcauliffe is smarter than I think by having the early primary. Don't forget, though, Rove will try and pick his opponent.

That it would be possible to run a campaign (and even to have discussions on internet bulletin boards) sort of along the lines of, y'know, discussing issues. E.g., "My opponent believes in unilateral disarmament. I think that's a very bad idea because {states reasons}"

This would have the strange, and for many Americans disorienting, effect of educating people about actual policy positions and could even cause them the mental agony of having to think.

Unfortunately, there seems to be far too much attachment to considering, "Oh, he's just Mr. Dooty-Head," to be the very height of political discourse.

But, as I'm sure someone will quickly inform me, I'm just a rose-glassesed hippie freak muzzy minded liberal who ain't got the nads to get in there and street fight like ya do in politics.

They want everything in snappy little soundbytes, real discussions just confuse the poor masses and keep them stupid. Had they been smart, they would have made computeers that talk to you like a TV, but now Americans are actually reading again. I am starting to think that many Americans are waking up, are using the free internet to find these discussions. Well, I have hope, anyway. :-)

They are out for a landslide, not just a win. I don't see how 'Dr Strangeloving' Clark would win, let alone how it would lead to a landslide. The simple fact is, there is ample historical precedent for the McGovernizing, with McGovern, Carter, Mondale, and Dukakis all being crushed with the same basic, 'paint them as soft on defence and crime, tax and spend liberals' strategy. I'm unaware of a historical precedent for a 'Dr. Strangelove' smear campaign. Note that not Carter, Dukakis or Mondale actually fit the mold all that well, but it didn't matter.

When Clark declared, there was a whole slew of stories floated about how he'd been relieved of duty in Kosovo because he was a loose cannon--He ordered some confrontation with the Russkies and a brave Brit said, "I'm not going to start WWIII for you."

There was stuff about how all the other generals hated him because he was haughty and incompetent. One of his former colleagues wrote a snarky op-ed about him.

They're already tuning up the Wurlitzer for Wesley.

Besides, it's a Rove campaign. If there's no mud, they'll make some up. I respectfully submit that thinking Clark, or anybody else, is beyond Republican smear tactics is a little dubious.

Look, when you're smearing people, the most effective smears of all are the ones that have a germ of truth to them. Dean fits the mold of a Northeastern liberal, and he's actually been campaigning as one to a large degree. And this pattern works, it's been used again and again. People are pre-disposed to believe in the soft on defense, tax and spend liberal. And what is Dean? A guy who was skiing instead of fighting in Vietnam, a guy with zero foreign policy experience, a guy who has raising taxes as part of his platform. He's tailor made for this sort of thing. Clark has tons of defenders in the military as well, including his evaluations. It's just not the same -- there's a difference between mudslinging and following a pattern that the public is already inclined to accept.

I think that having some generals lining up and saying, "I wouldn't trust Wes with my pencil sharpener, let along my country," will, in the public mind, constitute the basis for a smear with a germ of truth in it.

If having a stellar military background is garlic against Rove's vampiricism please explain to me this fact: John McCain is not POTUS.

Frankly, I suspect that the public was not "already inclined to accept" the allegation that McCain fathered a Black lovechild. That sure didn't stop the machine.

You're apparently at peace with dismissing the early trial balloons on the "Clark is a loony" stories. Maybe you think Clark's got some kind of magic that will take care of all that.

But those stories are already out there, which means they've got even bigger and better ones lined up.

You are happy dismissing the "Dean's a fighter" argument. But, far as I can tell, that's the main thing Clark's got going for him.

You think they don't make stuff up as they go along? Here's a little challenge for you: Go find me one single story, anywhere, before the 2000 election campaign that said Al Gore was anything but boringly honest, let alone a serial liar.

Whoever is nominated is going to get an all-time, world-class smearing. That includes Clark.

You think that the press is going to let Wesley get out there and actually respond, and show off his intelligence and charm? In your dreams.

Look. I promise you I don't have dog in the Dean/Clark hunt. I promise you I'll vote for whichever one of them gets the nomination. Or Kerry. I mean I'll vote ABB.

Just, please, think for a minute about this idea you apparently have that Clark solves some smear problem. It doesn't matter that the McGovern meme is already out there. Memes are a dime a dozen, and they're focus-grouping Clark as we speak. Memes a'plenty if he gets the nod.

When you get down to it, the line of Generals trying to smear Clark is a pretty short one. Schwarzkopf has already pulled back his statement, conceeding that he personally knew nothing negative about Wes, he had only reacted third hand to Shelton's initial comment. Sure the Republicans will continue to milk that angle as much as they can, but Clark has gotten much more effective at turning the attack against him into an attack on those who were complicit in appeasing Milosevic either through inaction, misplaced priorities, or intent. I've seen Clark make some of his most impressive points regarding his own foreign policy expertise, of late, when he takes those "charges" against him and fights back. If Clark gets the nomination we are lucky those attacks started as early as they did, he now knows how to turn them back to his advantage. AS the Democratic nominee, Clark will have ample air time to make his points. People who mess with his honor do so at their own risk.

McGovern was a veteran and a committed liberal. He took uambiguous, principled stands and he was truly antiwar.

For those of you who don't remember.

I don't mean you, Billy.

McGovern was soft, and took the smears without saying a word. They also think the same thing about Dukakis. As long as the Republicans have been pulling this trick, only Dean will be smart enough to fight back; the rest of them were too weak and dumb.

He is a goner.

If he's feisty but curbs the gut responses and the facial responses then at least he has a chance.

It's the shallowness of it all that really gets to me.

i don't think that usually works.

like McGovern..at least when we went down in flames it would be on the wings of a liberal.

A faithful man who is still fighting the war on hunger at 83 years old is who George McGovern is. Sorry, a "farting geriatric" who is still fighting the war on hunger.

He has a Ph.D in American history and government. He was director of President John F. Kennedy's Food for Peace Program. He was president of the Middle East Policy Council. United Nations delegate for the Special Session on Disarmament. He was in the Senate for 22 years and was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom by Clinton. Throughout the nineties, U.S. Permanent Representative to the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization, and now UN Special Ambassador on global hunger.

A war hero during World War II, McGovern wrote the book on being anti-war. He is a great man and don't anybody forget it.

I was on my way to work and couldn't look up all the details on McGovern.

McGovern was the real thing -- a true, committed antiwar liberal with deep-thinking supporters. A true Democrat and a fine man.

What a shallow, spoiled and immature group of populists we have these days.

rightwing IS afraid of Dean. Of course, I would expect media attacks against ANY candidate who looks like they would run against their "great leader" chimpy. It going to be a loooooooong and disgusting road over the next 10 1/2 months and if the those to the right of today's present government do not get their shit together soon its NOT going to be pretty. The primaries can't end soon enough for me.

Paranoia is traditionally part of the right wing package, because in their hearts they know the majority of Americans will reject them if their true agenda becomes widely known. Its been this way since the days of Bill Buckley. Over the years they have learned how to control the message and gradually overtaken the means of delivering that message but there will never come a day when the right isn't secretly afraid that the American public will wake up and "take it all away."

Me, I wonder why Doctor Dean doesn't start making comments about how Bush "appears" to be suffering from "wet brain syndrome" as a result of his years of alcohol and other substance abuse? The incoherence, the rocking back and forth, etc., etc., all suggest some form of neurological damage. A pleasing, ingratiating personality, of course, is typical of alcoholics, even "sober" alcoholics (which is different from being a recovered--or recovering--alcoholic) who have stopped drinking but have not learned to deal with the underlying personality problems that lead to addiction. People who stop drinking (or drugging) because of a "divine revelation", as opposed to working a 12 step program or its equivalent, often suffer from this kind of condition.

Just wondering.

If you let Republicans set the game and the rules, you lose.

Dean is the only candidate who will have money to fight back. What they can do to Dean, they can do to anyone.

Presuming that the Democratic party stops the trip off the cliff on which the now-presumed nominee, Dr. Dean, is taking us....

... the money will most decidedly be there for the General; the party will be fully energized to make that happen. Unlike for the Doctor who enjoys, at best, deep but hardly wide support in the party as a whole.

... and no - absolutely not - can or will they be able to do smear the General with the same wide, broad, and deep brush which is now being dipped into the can of red paint in preparation for the Doctor.

some dumb-ass puts up a website and you're in a panic? What did you think they were going to do, try to photograph his best side and talk about his toenails? Jesus freaking Christ. We're in deep shit if people don't grow a spine.

I want to know this:

What did you think the media were going to do? What do you think they would have done had Clark been the front-runner? Or Kerry?

And second, why are you so terrified of them? Bush's time has come - all we have to do is have high voter turnout AND a paper trail in 2004, and we will take Bush down. Why are you wasting your time on these stupid fear tactics? Aren't you supposed to be a Democrat?

If you hate Rove, stop doing his bidding, consciously or unconsciously.

Nixon and Watergate.

This is Karl Rove and the Republican dweebs replaying some 60s culture war.

Yesterday many were bearing tidings of Dean's demise. It was over for him they predicted, but today he is back on the front page of the NYTimes, back in Chimpy's face again.

What else could you ask for?

And he's repeating Wes Clark's national security platform, point by point.

I'm glad that all our candidates are inspiring each other.

...they know they're doing something wrong. They wouldn't have to come on quite as forcefully if they didn't know it was balderdash.

now that would be a nice choice for vice-president.

http://nhpr.org/view_content/5424/

NPR HH did a story on this several weeks ago. I didnt post about it at the time because, again, its just a couple of republicans poking fun at dems and having nothing worthwile to contribute. Hell, if there were republicans that actually had something worthwile to contribute - THAT would be news.

As news of Halliburton overcharging the US military/taxpayer and serving dirty meals in dirty mess halls gain wider circulation, have printed official-looking “Bush/Halliburton” signs to post all over.

Include a slogan.

How about:

Bush/Halliburton in 2004
Vote Corporate Greed over a Soldier’s Need…

The last 48 hours has shown incredible back stabbing of Dean by Kerry and Lieberman. Incredible. (shaking my head)

But his supporters here are another story entirely...

The very same day, same station Clark refuses to take the madia bait ans attack on CF, your guy is calling him a GOP-er. And that has been constant. Clark is a gentleman. I am NOT.
I intend to defend him.
And just in case you think you'll get away with it - he believes in "strong, proactive defense" as well. So tell your guy to stop and desist

At least Kerry hits back with the truth.

Dean lied to make his points. Lied about their tax votes. Lied about the differences between their Iraq positions. Lied that he was from the Dem wing of the party when he was a lifelong compromising centrist.

hell, ten bucks says he made the website!!

the thought had occured to me.