I have been doing a lot of research on the European welfare states (also Canadian and Australian as well), and it has completely changed my mind about politics. IN fact, my research has transformed into a True Liberal!
One of the most fascinating and informative webpage I came across was this one:
http://www.american-pictures.com/english/racism/articles/welfare.htmIt tells the story of how the Danes have fought time and time again for their welfare state. And it tells you what a welfare state is, and should be.
I highly recommend it!
Also, here are some other links of similar nature:
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Economics/AmericanProsperityMyth.htmlhttp://www.geocities.com/kew1788/SocialDemocracy.htmhttp://www.geocities.com/kew1788/TakeBackNation.htmhttp://maxspeak.org/gm/archives/00000791.htmlhttp://geocities.com/aufheben2/stc_introhttp://faculty.insead.fr/fatas/econ/Articles/Chasing%20the%20Leader.htmhttp://post.economics.harvard.edu/hier/2001papers/HIER1933.pdfhttp://www.mylinuxisp.com/~cryofan/Please read these and tell me what you think.....
Also, below are some of the most interesting posts from the earlier thread "Welfare State", which was started my redqueen with a link to the american-pictures.com link shown above.
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
redqueen (1000+ posts) Thu Dec-11-03 07:13 PM
Original message
Welfare State
Okay you centrists... let's rumble! (just kidding )
Seriously... we had a great debate about economic justice and I'd love to
have one about this:
http://www.american-pictures.com/english/racism/articles/welfare.htmFor all I know, this came from one of the posts in that thread.
In any case, comments in another thread about blowing bazillions on war
programs made me want to shed light on another way of looking at society in
general. I think living here we are conditioned to be more competitive with
each other, rather than cooperative. I think that feeds the idea that war is
inevitable.
So... check out the link (it's really long), and let's debate!
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
about what is going on in the social democracies of Europe. I have been
passing that american-pictures.com link around everywhere I can on the
Web, and it looks like the meme it represents may have found a home in a
few brains here tonight.
I have a collection of dozens of links that deal with that meme or similar
ones, and I am going to post them here tonight.
Now let us take the meme embedded in these web pages and slowly spread
them like a benevolent virus, a community-building virus, a solidarity
virus, a union virus, a universal healthcare virus, an extended-leisure time
virus, a Social Capital virus, throughout America. Let's turn America into
something better than even Denmark aspires to be.
As far as I can tell, Kucinich is the best candidate to help us spread this
virus. No offense to any other candidate. But that is my estimation. And he
may not get the nomination, but it is clear to me that he can lead this
movement because this viral idea, this meme, the one dealt with in the web
page that started this thread, has ALREADY TAKEN ROOT in the brain of
Dennis Kucinich.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Sugarbleus (73 posts) Fri Dec-12-03 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #6
43. I'm ready!
I agree with this article 2000%
My family and friends have been wanting this type of government for YEARS
!!!!!!!!!! There's plenty of room and wealth in this country for everyone to
benefit and enjoy some modicum of quality of life! We talk about it all the
time. We need to stablize the society from the BOTTOM UP not the other way
round. If we had more of our basic needs tended to,that would free up more
cash for us to SPEND and send back into the economy!
I like what the writer of the article said about Clinton. I voted for Clinton
then became quite angry with him for KILLING THE WELFARE PROGRAMS!
instead of improving them, for NOT fighting HARD ENOUGH for health care for
EVERYONE walking on this soil--employed or not! There are two or three
types of Dems today. The ones that would try to make real change like in
that article are rarely given any voice. BIG MONEY AND POWER shoot them
down everytime. GREED is EVIL.
.............................
camero (1000+ posts)
Me,too.
GD has seemed to just become a forum for a person's candidate and not real
issues. Like this one.
Also, the period after FDR's reforms was the fastest period of rising
standard of living in our history. It almost depresses me.
.............................................
Being willing to be wrong is usually desperate
Edited on Fri Dec-12-03 05:27 AM by Kanary
Most people have barricaded themselves in order to not have to think
about the hard things. Often, the only thing that breaks through that tough
armor is having it hit personally... and hard. It's so very tragic... it truly is
the stuff of Greek tragedies.
So, I'm willing to let it slide until the "masses" learn it the hard way... but
that means that so many of us will be doing the suffering in the meantime.
We need to be able to get away from it until the lesson is learned, and
there is a willingness to hear reason.
"So many people take a position and then all their energy from that point
forward goes into defending it, as though they were going to be punished if
they changed their minds!"
Hence, Bushwa is appreciated because he is "decisive". GAk He's wrong as
all hell, but he sure is decisive.
Kanary
..............................
ninkasi (1000+ posts)
Truly eye-opening article
I think the Danes have it right, too. We waste so much money on war, our
ridiculous drug wars, and making sure we keep people poverty sticken,
without adequate housing, medical care, or education.
The system in this country is completely corrupt and mean spirited. We
could learn a lot from the Danes, and other Europeans. This country could
be so much better than it is now, if we just had the will to make it so.
........................
redqueen (1000+ posts) Thu Dec-11-03 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Thanks for commenting
The way their system is run, unselfishly, and with people as the focus, not
profit, reflects how I'd like this country to be run.
(more time for family vs. time working to profit others, rehabilitation vs.
punishment for criminals, not accepting poverty as a fact of life, etc.)
...................................
ShimokitaJer (551 posts) Thu Dec-11-03 11:37 PM
Response to Original message
24. An eye-opening article
There are certainly lessons to be learned from that letter, but there are
quite a few firmly ingrained attitudes that need to be overcome first. I can
just hear the voices yelling that it's different here... we're a bigger
country... we have a more diverse population... we have military
obligations... anything to keep from acknowledging the fact that their way
is working for the people and ours isn't.
But I'm an eternal optimist. I believe these attitudes can be overturned one
by one with fearless leadership on the right to a living wage, nationalized
health care, etc.
Thank for the enlightening post.
..................
redqueen (1000+ posts) Thu Dec-11-03 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Thanks for your comment.
Don't thank me, thank cryofan! Reading this has really opened my eyes. I
knew these places were different (more paid leave for new moms, mandatory
vacation, etc.), but this comprehensive explanation of how they're different
has been very enlightening and encouraging.
Also a bit depressing... as I've realized just how LITTLE our more
'progressive' party has done for what I think are real progressive values
............................
Kanary (689 posts) Thu Dec-11-03 11:51 PM
Response to Original message
25. This has me in tears
I mean, I *knew* the reality of the difference in cultures, but this is just
so striking.
I'm a "community" person... I want to work in tandem with others, and care
about the situation of others as much as I care about my own situation.
Can't do that here..... it doesn't come back. I've banged my head against a
wall all my life, and I'm tired. So very tired. I just want to live in a country
where the "mindset" is already there... where I don't have to talk myself
bluein the face just to get someone to listen.
Reading this article makes me feel my fatigue all the more. It makes me
ready to pack up and get the hell outta here. Even having to learn another
language is a whole lot easier than struggling to get people to care, and to
listen.
It would be even acceptable if there was some way to get pockets of this
sort of thing happening here in the US, but... hah.. even Dems don't want to
talk abou it.
I'm ready to pack..... So what if I can't even fly into the country. I'll bring a
lot of food in, and just walk in. Wonder what their favorite food are that are
in short supply.....?
Kanary
.......................
cryofan (274 posts) Fri Dec-12-03 12:12 AM
Response to Original message
28. I am SO THRILLED that I have finally made some people see the light...
....about what is going on in the social democracies of Europe. I have been
passing that american-pictures.com link around everywhere I can on the
Web, and it looks like the meme it represents may have found a home in a
few brains here tonight.
I have a collection of dozens of links that deal with that meme or similar
ones, and I am going to post them here tonight.
Now let us take the meme embedded in these web pages and slowly spread
them like a benevolent virus, a community-building virus, a solidarity
virus, a union virus, a universal healthcare virus, an extended-leisure time
virus, a Social Capital virus, throughout America. Let's turn America into
something better than even Denmark aspires to be.
As far as I can tell, Kucinich is the best candidate to help us spread this
virus. No offense to any other candidate. But that is my estimation. And he
may not get the nomination, but it is clear to me that he can lead this
movement because this viral idea, this meme, the one dealt with in the web
page that started this thread, has ALREADY TAKEN ROOT in the brain of
Dennis Kucinich.
................................
Kanary (689 posts) Mon Dec-15-03 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #91
94. Wish you were right
camero, I so much appreciate your input. I also believe in the same thing...
that not only people don't *have* to go it alone, but that, in the last
analysis, we can't. It's our stoooopid belief in the rugged individualism that
sabotages so much of what we try to do.
But, just knowing that, and understanding the truth of needing each other
doesn't make it be so. I got slapped down harshly just yesterday for saying
what you just told me. If I ever have the temerity to say that I can't do it
alone, andneed others, I get judged, criticised and rejected. It seems the
only way to actually get people to respond is to say you don't need them!
I agree that I had some support here in this thread earlier, and in the other
one the other night. It did a lot to lift my spirits. But, it is far outweighed
by all the criticism.
It really is hopeless. If one can't even come here and feel safe, then there
is just no hope. I see that now. It just isn't going to change. Not in my
lifetime, and not unless there is some cataclysmic upheaval.
Thanks for the response. I appreciate you listening.
..........................
cryofan (274 posts) Fri Dec-12-03 03:32 AM
Response to Reply #28
36. more links to support this meme
This original one is the best:
http://www.american-pictures.com/english/racism/articles/welfare.htmHere are the rest:
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Economics/AmericanProsperityMyth.htmlhttp://www.geocities.com/kew1788/SocialDemocracy.htmhttp://www.geocities.com/kew1788/TakeBackNation.htmhttp://maxspeak.org/gm/archives/00000791.htmlhttp://geocities.com/aufheben2/stc_introhttp://faculty.insead.fr/fatas/econ/Articles/Chasing%20the%20Leader.htmhttp://post.economics.harvard.edu/hier/2001papers/HIER1933.pdfhttp://www.mylinuxisp.com/~cryofan/ ...........................
Kanary (689 posts) Fri Dec-12-03 04:04 AM
Response to Original message
37. What we need is a Statue of Liberty -- in reverse
Edited on Fri Dec-12-03 04:05 AM by Kanary
The inscription on the Statue of Liberty is sooo beautiful. Open arms for
those who are left out in any way.
Clearly, the US is no longer even holding it's arms out for it's *own*. So, I
propose that it's time other countries returned the favor, and accepted
those of us who so much need the care of their advanced social programs. I
also think there should/could be a condition on it..... that we use the time
in our adopted country (after learning the language), to learn how their
system works, to learn how it was instituted, and how it is maintained. We
need to be a group of people learning how to think in community terms,
rather than in "rugged individualist" terms, so that when the US finally gets
it together and figures out that the horrible "welfare state" is much more
productive, we can come back as teacher-citizens, to help organize the
transition.
OK, so I'm an idealist. ^_^ But one thing I've seen in my life is that we
USians, as a people, don't take too well to learning from others, so we need
those within our own borders, who've seen the system up close and
personal, as consultants. Much more importantly, we will need those of us
who have already transitioned into the "community" model, and are
comfortable within it.
I'm ready to volunteer to go learn. Where do I sign up?
........................
LeahMira (725 posts) Mon Dec-15-03 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #37
92. Well, it begins in you.
The inscription on the Statue of Liberty is sooo beautiful. Open arms for
those who are left out in any way.
It is a beautiful expression of what is best in humanity.
But, Kanary, the people who were already here when Europeans arrived
welcomed those Europeans with open arms. Where are they now? On
reservations and in ghettos in our big cities, struggling to survive.
Part of the curse that we have inherited for what our ancestors did lies in
the suspicion that so many of us feel now. We, metaphorically speaking,
were welcomed and pitied and received compassion, and we repaid that
generosity by taking away everything. There are natural consequences for
bad deeds... we don't need prisons. We are in the prison of our own guilt.
Because we destroyed, we are stuck with the mindset that makes us think
that everyone is the same as we are. Thus, we fear the stranger, but more
than that we fear generosity. We imagine that generosity is "idealistic" and
"impractical." And we are eating ourselves up with our fear.
I think the answers are possibly in European nations, but they are also
right here under our noses. We just need to watch, listen and learn... and
then live it ourselves.
..........................
cryofan (274 posts) Fri Dec-12-03 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
49. some interesting excerpts from "fighting for the welfare state"
Fighting for
the welfare state
....
I have for many years now been teaching in America about the European
concept of the welfare state and the generally ill-informed American
students (at least when it comes to conditions outside their own country)
usually find it all a great idea when having it described. But when the
question comes to "How do you go about making a welfare state?" they always
express a tremendous sense of powerlessness when I tell them "You fight for
it, you strike for it, you vote for it, of course!" - since this seems obvious
to me and most Europeans.
I always come away with a feeling of how different we really are: the
Americans with their tremendous feeling of power in terms of what the
individual can accomplish on a selfish scale - and the Europeans with their
similar sense of power as to what can be accomplished in unison for the
benefit of all.
...
This time our nationwide general shutdown of society is about getting a 6
weeks paid vacation plan. The employers will only give 5 weeks vacation
with full pay (as we and most Europeans have it now), but are willing to give
one extra week unpaid. But the Danish employees won't settle. They don't
think 5 weeks is enough for their round-the-world vacations (since one
week is usually used for their Christmas vacation and another week for their
skiing vacation).
So now they want 4 weeks for their summer vacation alone (since - as they
rightly claim - it takes at least one week to get off the jet lag when going
around the world to Thailand/Vietnam, Australia or Latin America - so that "
lost week" doesn't count as real "quality vacation"!!!)
.......................
TorchesAndPitchforks (203 posts) Sat Dec-13-03 12:24 AM
Response to Original message
52. I've read, bookmarked, but not posted...till now
I also yearn deeply to live in a European-style welfare state. As an
American I would gladly sacrifice a portion of my standard of living for the
peace of mind that comes from knowing that others are not suffering. To me
it is a moral imperative.
There are many reasons why America is so different than the affluent
nations of Europe, why we seem to have less regard for the common good.
Too many reasons to go into. Personally, I think the main reason is because
we achieved democracy here BEFORE we had a workers revolution. We are
unique among all nations in that regard thus we have less appreciation for
democracy and for the power we have to alter the social order.
We were a country born without the rigid social stratification of our
European forebears. Blessed with an abundance of natural resources, we
were able to exploit this freedom to create unprecedented prosperity.
Without stratification, the talents and creativity of ALL people could be
unleashed. A major side effect of this phenomenon was the belief by many
that government was not necessary to bring this prosperity into being;
many have the impression government restrains people's ability to get
ahead. Of course, this belief is amplified by the propaganda of the monied
interests.
Unlike Danes, we progressives here have to work with this grave
disadvantage. We have to acknowledge the reality of the situation while
still holding on to our ideals. We have to acknowledge that we have an
uphill struggle. There is an old spanish saying that goes "a man who is NOT a
revolutionary at age 20 has no heart; a man who is STILL a revolutionary at
age 40 has no brain."
Yet we know change is possible. The Progressive movement, New Deal, and
Great Society show us that change in this country is possible under the
right circumstances. Unfortunately, it seems those cirumstances only occur
when the situation is so bleakly dire that the nation seems to be on the
verge of collapse.
We may be at that point soon.
But then again we may not. My point is we should not be so critical of the
incrementalists. I'm currently reading "The Clinton Wars" by Blumenthal and
it has given me a renewed appreciation for Bill Clinton and the strategies
he pursued. Like many, I was so disappointed by so many of his policies that
I saw him as a traitor. I no longer think so. By being less rigid, I could open
my eyes to the good things he was able to accomplish despite operating in a
brutally hostile political environment.
We MUST remember that politics is the art of compromise. I think Clinton was
earnestly trying to lay the groundwork for a liberal resurgence in America.
The Bush/Cheney coup d'etat happened because his attempts threatened to
be successful.
To be successful, we have to achieve a political majority. The Bush/Cheney
junta should be helping us to make our case. But the detached, brainwashed
majority will be slow to come around, at least until the spam really hits the
fan and our standard of living is completely destroyed. We must work hard
and have faith that people will come to their senses before its too late.
I believe its true that our enormous expenditures of the nations treasure
on the military is the leading contributor to our decline and to our
inability to fund social programs. Again, one must look soberly at our
nation's history and acknowledge the difficulty of changing conventional
wisdom in this area. We have always been a violent nation and much of our
economic dominance the last 60-100 years is due mainly to our military
might. To use another well-worn cliche, "live by the sword, die by the
sword." It will take finesse to convince people that there is a better way.
I have one more point I'd like to make. I, too, have thought seriously about
leaving this country. But then I think of the true meaning of patriotism. I am
not a nationalist, yet this is my country and the country of my ancestors.
Should I give up on it and let it wither away? Or should I stand up and fight.
227 years ago men and women were willing to give up their lives to
establish a nation based on the concepts of freedom that we still hold dear.
I ask myself if I am willing to make the same sacrifice for the same cause. I
hope that I am and I hope that you are, too.
.............................
cryofan (274 posts) Sat Dec-13-03 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #52
55. OK, fine, Ithere was the attempt at universal healthcare by hillary, but..
...why did Clinto NOT advance his ideas in his second term? Why did he NOT
try to communicate these ideas to America before he left?
The fact is that power corrupts, and Clinton was probably corrupted before
he even got into the office.
BTW, even though she is a little scary, I would vote for Hillary.
A CENTRIST IS HALF REPUBLICAN AND HALF DEMOCRAT, THEREFORE A CENTRIST
IS A REPUBLICRAT...WILL YOU VOTE FOR A REPUBLICRAT IN 2004??
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redqueen (1000+ posts) Sat Dec-13-03 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #55
56. I see it the same way
Where has compromising got us so far? Dragged further to the right, that's
where.
You don't get very far if you start out from a weaker position. If you know
you're going to have to compromise, then you darn well better start off
asking for more than you want.
It's the first law of bargaining.
Light up America! Vote for Kucinich! www.kucinich.us
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cryofan (274 posts) Sat Dec-13-03 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #56
57. Exactly! Politics is a negotiation process between rich and the rest of
us
And we have been bungling the negotiations BADLY! In fact, we are like a
sucker walking into a used car lot and buying the car at whatever the
sticker price is! WTF?
The Europeans however are virtually holding all that capital and investment
in their countries hostage by periodically going on huge strikes.
We OTOH have been bamboozled by media propaganda and we all think we are
going to be rich someday, so it won't matter anyway.
SUH-PRIZE SUH-PRIZE SUH-PRIZE /gomer pyle voice/...it aint gonna happen to
the vast majority of us....
And we let CorpGovMedia scare us with boogeymen so that we will cave in
and not negotiate....ooohh....Bin Laden gonna getcha....you better let us
take your civil liberties away....Well, Bin laden killed 3000 one day, but
5000 AMericans die every day of the year from old age, heart disease,
cancer etc. I would rather let bin laden and saddam die of old age, and put
the money into healthcare and cancer research.
Oohh...George Bush is gonna getcha....he's gonna load the Supreme Ct with
evil men...so you better let us nominate a centrist Republicrat....
A CENTRIST IS HALF REPUBLICAN AND HALF DEMOCRAT, THEREFORE A CENTRIST
IS A REPUBLICRAT...WILL YOU VOTE FOR A REPUBLICRAT IN 2004??
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Kanary (689 posts) Sat Dec-13-03 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #56
67. "Where has compromising got us so far?"
A lot of dead people, and many other people pushed to the wall.
There are many people saying it's time to stop with the compromise, stop
with the trying to be so careful, and just come out what what we really
believe and what we really want, and actually create a clear opposition to
the Pubs. But, is anyone listening?
We made a BEEG mistake in letting the right define "family values". WE gotta
take back compassion, in some way, with whatever word we can use.
In other words, we're going to have to have as much backbone as we have
been demanding that our DEM politicians develope!
Kanary, mad as hell and not gonna take it anymore
Where are we going, and why am I in this handbasket?
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cryofan (274 posts) Sat Dec-13-03 02:00 AM
Response to Original message
58. An exploration of Enya Hastings' ideas
One of the links I provided above leads to a couple of pages by someone
named Enya Hastings. I dunno who Enya Hastings is, but his website http://
www.geocities.com/kew1788/ is fantastic, and he is ALL OVER this turn-
America-into-a-European-social-democracy meme that we have been
discussing here.
One of his many secondary web pages is
http://www.geocities.com/kew1788/TakeBackNation.htm which gives some very practical instructions for how to
take back our nation....
Here are some excerpts:
Globalization has been the greatest influence on American culture and
politics since the 1970’s. In the past few decades, unregulated flow of
capital into developing world factories has caused literally hundreds of
millions of American manufacturing jobs to move to the developing world,
especially China. Millions of service jobs are moving to India, where a
billion poverty-stricken English-speaking peasants are happy to man the
customer service phones of global corporations for a dollar a day. A billion
hungry Chinese, a billion hungry Indians, a billion hungry South Americans
and a billion hungry Africans are pulling down American quality of life to
developing world levels, due to globalization. The result is an international
race to the top for the capitalist 10% of the population who profit from
globalization, and an international race to the bottom for the working 90%
of all people. In both China and America, the ratio is the same: 10% are
becoming fantastically rich while 90% are becoming incredibly poor as
exploited wage slaves for global corporations.
The effects of globalization in America are obvious: America is becoming a
New World banana republic in which aristocrats abuse their power through
crony capitalism, while the majority of Americans are becoming uneducated,
illiterate, underemployed wage slaves terrorized by threats of
unemployment and starvation. The increasing gap between rich and poor,
corporate criminal corruption, runaway inflation of CEO pay, total lack of
adequate public services and health care insurance, and campaign finance
corruption are all predictable symptoms of globalization and its
polarization of society into a capitalist aristocrat caste minority and an
oppressed slave caste majority.
....
What is to be done? We need a revolution, but violent revolution probably
won’t work in an advanced nation in the new century. Communism is a proven
failure throughout the world. Laissez faire capitalism is an unsustainable
form of slavery. Only Social Democracy is a viable system, but even social
democrat nations such as Sweden and Norway are under tremendous
downward pressure on wages from globalization. The solution must be a new
form of Social Democracy that can compete in the global marketplace even
as it protects domestic quality of life and social programs—and it is a
formidable challenge for social democratic nations to balance this new
mixed economy. Nevertheless, it must be acknowledged that Social
Democracy is the only viable solution, and therefore inevitable, even in
America. Britain, Canada, Australia, Scandinavia, Europe, Brazil, Venezuela,
South America and other regions are already progressing toward Social
Democracy, even as America is stuck in an anti-progressive Dark Age.
America simply needs to catch up with the rest of the world, to end this
American Dark Age, to enter a new era of progressive enlightenment.
How to vote: Always vote. In any American election, always vote for the
democratic candidate regardless of personality, because that is the only
way to defeat republicans. In a three-way race between a republican, a
democrat and an independent, vote democrat. In a race between a democrat
and a progressive independent, vote for the independent. But voting is not
enough. Get involved in the community; spread the good news of
progressive policy. Advocate Social Democracy, so that one day, America
will grow to be as progressive as the rest of the civilized world.
Home:
http://www.geocities.com/kew1788/A CENTRIST IS HALF REPUBLICAN AND HALF DEMOCRAT, THEREFORE A CENTRIST
IS A REPUBLICRAT...WILL YOU VOTE FOR A REPUBLICRAT IN 2004??
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Muddleoftheroad (1000+ posts) Sat Dec-13-03 02:02 AM
Response to Original message
59. Lost in the shuffle
Of this interesting post is the fact that Americans don't want that kind of
government. That's why we don't have it. It's not the governing elites, it's
ordinary Americans.
As he died to make men holy, let us die to make men free
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cryofan (274 posts) Sat Dec-13-03 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #59
60. You need to read "Manufacturing Consent". BTW 70% of USians want.........
...universal health care.
Do yourself a favor--read the links I provided above in the thread. Then go
check out the "Manufacturing Consent" video documentary from your library.
Americans are NEVER presented with the social democracy evidence and
then ASKED whether that is what they want.
However, polls always show that almost 70% of Americans want universal
health care. That is a foundation of the european social democracy.
Polls also show that Americans would like a 35 hour work week. That is a
foundation of the european social democracy.
...........................
camero (1000+ posts) Sat Dec-13-03 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. I hate to say it, but a big reason we don't have it here
Edited on Sat Dec-13-03 05:40 PM by camero
is because the American Leadership has never realy felt the physical
power of the working classes. Except for the Great Depression, when they
were openly calling for Communism, this was the only time we really have
taken real steps toward a welfare state and it was done to keep a revolution
from happening.
The leadership just thinks it was because of unemployment. So, if they just
hoodwink the populace into believing that unemployment is below 10% that
they can keep us from demanding change. That's why you always see the
unemployment numbers undercounted and people being thrown out of the
labor force. Plus it feeds the belief that those are out of the labor force
because they don't want to work. Which is untrue.
Part of the reason that Europe has a welfare state is because they know the
physical power of the working classes. They can shut the whole country
down. Nothing less than that will bring change here.
I'm not advocating violence but I think a Nationwide strike would get them
working on this pretty darn fast.
...............................
Kanary (689 posts) Sat Dec-13-03 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #69
71. Nationwide strike
I like the way you think, camero! In answer to the question posed in the
opening post, and response to your post here, YES! I'm Ready To Rumble!!
^_^
I must, sadly, agree with you. The US people have allowed Beeg Bidness to
rule. It's that danged allegiance to "rugged individualism" at the expense of
any sort of cooperative sense of belonging to a greater whole. How to break
that down?
As for an uprising... in a sense, that is what gangs are about. Unfortunately,
it's aim is off, and is easily picked off by the Powers That Be.
I had hoped that cuts in welfare, etc would bring about this sort of
uprising.... Once people get accustomed to having a certianly level of
safety, taking that away should bring out a lot of anger. It may still happen,
but so far I don't see it.
This is exactly why I"m so upset with Dems (including "progressives" right
here!) ignoring the folx at the bottom. If there was energy and effort spent
in organizing with people who are the most vulnerable and the most at risk,
the resulting noise would very well have a big impact. Ignoring this
segment of the population is one more shot to the Democratic foot.
Kanary
Where are we going, and why am I in this handbasket?
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cryofan (274 posts) Sat Dec-13-03 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. yep, a nationwide strike would be a necessary first step to taking
control
Think of it--a nationwide strike, organized through the internet. One day
....just as a show of populist force. If we could pull that off, we would be on
our way. How to do it?
A CENTRIST IS HALF REPUBLICAN AND HALF DEMOCRAT, THEREFORE A CENTRIST
IS A REPUBLICRAT...WILL YOU VOTE FOR A REPUBLICRAT IN 2004??
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camero (1000+ posts) Sat Dec-13-03 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #72
74. That's the kicker
Because first we would have to convince everyone that they aren't going to
die with a week away from work and that the best way to get the priviliged
classes to get them to do what you want is to hit them in the wallet.
A good example are the Isreali pilots that refused to bomb Palestine.
Well, it's the same thing with the American workforce. We are soldiers that
do the leader's bidding. And when we stop doing their bidding, even a
weeks loss of revenue and productivity would get the American Capitalists
to capitulate. Because they rely on cash flow, not just wealth. They want
more wealth. We take that away, then the ball is in our hands.
"No longer enslaved...the great majority are so by force of poverty, they
are still chained to a place, to an occupation, and to conformity with the
will of an employer and debarred by an accidentof birth from the
enjoyments...which others inherit without exertion...that this is an evil...
the poor are not wrong in believing." John Stuart Mill
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cryofan (274 posts) Sun Dec-14-03 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #74
75. how could we organize a one-day nationwide strike?
This strike would not be a media event, because that means they could co-
opt. take over, and subvert such a movement.
I say we could start organizing this right now....right here
A CENTRIST IS HALF REPUBLICAN AND HALF DEMOCRAT, THEREFORE A CENTRIST
IS A REPUBLICRAT...WILL YOU VOTE FOR A REPUBLICRAT IN 2004??
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camero (1000+ posts) Sun Dec-14-03 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #75
76. Yeah, we could
A one day one would not do much damage to them, though. But you have to
crawl before you walk, I suppose.
"No longer enslaved...the great majority are so by force of poverty, they
are still chained to a place, to an occupation, and to conformity with the
will of an employer and debarred by an accidentof birth from the
enjoyments...which others inherit without exertion...that this is an evil...
the poor are not wrong in believing." John Stuart Mill
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cryofan (274 posts) Mon Dec-15-03 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #76
77. exactly...a one-day solidarity strike would simply be a...
....psycological tool to show the participators and the non-participators
that we can wield power....
A CENTRIST IS HALF REPUBLICAN AND HALF DEMOCRAT, THEREFORE A CENTRIST
IS A REPUBLICRAT...WILL YOU VOTE FOR A REPUBLICRAT IN 2004??
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Lydia Leftcoast (1000+ posts) Sat Dec-13-03 06:31 AM
Response to Original message
66. Most Americans don't know anything about other countries
Some ridiculously small percentage even have a passport, and many have no
interest in seeing other countries because"this is the greatest country in
the world." When I taught college, I was dismayed at the number of students
who turned down affordable opportunities to study abroad (they could use
their financial aid from the college and sometimes even work).
One of my colleagues took a leave of absence and backpacked around the
world with his wife. He reported that on the road, they found lots of
Australians and Europeans and even Israelis, but he found almost no other
Americans. When he came back, he urged his students to do the same, but
they looked at him as if he was crazy.
One limiting factor for American college graduates is the fact that they're
paying off loans. However, they could still join the Peace Corps or go teach
English overseas.
But no, for many, the highest ambition is to get a job in some office park.
Even if they have money, there is now a new obstacle to travel: fear. If
you're not afraid of terrorism or anti-Americanism, there's always SARS. (I
somehow got on the mailing list of a travel agency in Portland that begs
people to ignore the stereotypes about "dangerous" and "hostile" foreign
countries.)
No wonder Americans don't know how people live in the rest of the world.
When they do find out the truth, it's often a shock.
The husband of one of my cousins was quite a Reaganite in the 1980s and
always railing about those "chicken shit" Europeans and their no nukes
demonstrations. However, when his wife's brother, a retired military officer
who decided to retire in Germany, persuaded them to come for a visit, this
former hawk returned to the States saying, "I understand now why they don't
want war. In some ways, they have it nicer than we do."
Americans put up with lousy health insurance, expensive college, two-week
vacations, and stingy family leave policies because they think everyone
lives the way they do or worse. They hear stories of the hardships that
drove Somali or Guatemalan immigrants to this country and decide that
they're pretty lucky (which they are in comparison to most Third World
people).
I once heard a talk by a priest who had worked with Central American
refugees. He told of the political and economic misery they had suffered,
and one of the questioners asked, "Why did the peasants suddenly start
rebelling in the 1970s when they've been miserable since the Spanish
conquest?"
The priest's answer was surprising. "The most revolutionary thing that
happened in Central America was the arrival of the transistor radio. Before
that, peasants rarely traveled more than walking distance from their
villages, so while they knew they were miserable, they thought the rest of
the world lived the same way. Cheap transistor radios brought them news of
the outside world for the first time."
I wish there were something equivalent to the Central Americans' cheap
transistor radio to bring U.S. residents to greater awareness of what is
possible in a modern society. According to conservatives, public schools
are doomed to failure, public transit cannot attract riders, and businesses
cannot operate if the workers are treated well. Yet other countries produce
better-educated elementary school graduates, have good to excellent
public transit, and have thriving economies while mandating benefits for
workers.
But the powers that be do not want large numbers of Americans knowing
this.
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Kanary (689 posts) Sat Dec-13-03 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #66
73. Ignorance of other cultures is Huge
You are soooo right. This "We're Number One", and "We're the Best" limits
our view in a disastrous way.
Even if people don't want to or can't afford to travel (and that travel must
be done "on the cheap", or the only view is a very limited one), at least
there needs to be a value placed on learning about other cultures. Not in
the sense of looking down on them, but as a way of broadening what we
really know of other people and their views and their cultures. We are sooo
sadly lacking. I've often said that if there are to be required courses at all,
then certainly Anthropology should be at the top of any list of required
courses! What better way to learn to stand back and see your own culture in
a more unbiased way, and learn to look at, and evaluate, our negatives as
well as the positives.
"No wonder Americans don't know how people live in the rest of the world.
When they do find out the
truth, it's often a shock."
So very true, especially for those who have been so successfully insulated.
*Because* I had a more open background, thanks to some Anthropology and
other courses, when I went to Greece, I was prepared to see something
besides what I was accustomed to. As a result, I felt no shock when I arrived
there, and felt quite at home and comfortable. The *shock* happened when I
arrived back "home", and saw so clearly how much more dangerous it was to
be here, how much more risk I was taking just being on the street, how
alone I was when I was ill or in need of something, and how much more
frantic day-to-day living is. Just to name a few differences. I felt "
homesick" for quite a while after my return, and kept dreaming of somehow
being able to go back. *THat* was the shock, indeed.
Kanary
Where are we going, and why am I in this handbasket?
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snoochie (436 posts) Sat Dec-13-03 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
70. That is where I want my country headed
Edited on Sat Dec-13-03 06:01 PM by snoochie
Not towards fake family values, but real family values.
Not towards increasing wars against the people (drug war, crime war - which
just makes professional criminals - there's no rehabilitation, etc.), but
towards implementing policies and programs that enrich the people.
What is this nation if not the sum total of her people? What does it say
about her if she lets so many kids live in poverty? If she allows so many
innocents to rot in jail, despite proof of their innocence? If she allows the
workforce to have no family life to speak of, because work dominates all? (
Most HR firms tell employees not to expect to work for 10 years at any
company, instead they'll have to keep hopping from job to job... is 2 weeks
vacation enough? Most jobs won't even give you that much until you've
worked there for a year!)
People say Americans don't want these programs. Well just like Kucinich,
how can you say they don't want it if they know next to nothing about it?
Lydia Leftcoast makes a great point... if we want this change, we must
become the transistor radios for our countrymen. We must show them there
is a better way to live than as serfs to be exploited for the enrichment of
the few.
Yes, a nationwide strike would do it but until you convince enough people
of the necessity there will be no solidarity.
........................
PeeWeeTheMadman (25 posts) Mon Dec-15-03 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #93
122. Work fetishism?
I really think that the reason there are so many poor people in the US is
this irrational obsession that everybody should work. Actually, the long
term unemployment and work participation rates are not significantly lower
in Scandinavia than in the USA.
The problem is that every country have a surplus of labour. If everyone
should work, the result will be a lot of underpaid jobs, because the market
can`t absord all the labour if you have a high minimum wage. Because some
people are on welfare and disability in Norway, we can have checkoutgirls
who earn around $12 an hour.
..........................
cryofan (274 posts) Mon Dec-15-03 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #131
145. I think you missed one of the main points in the original link above
One of the main ideas was that we are working TOO MUCH. We need to work
LESS. Having leisure time and lots of it is a Good Thing.
We should organize our govt so that it has as a primary goal the provision
of greatly increased leisure time for its citizens. Also, a minimum income
for those who are not working, within reasonable limits, and of course
universal health and day care. And heavily subsidized housing for those
who make less money; also tuition free college. That is what that original
post it mainly about. But we have to fight for it, and put aside some of our
animal/simian/caveman instincts.
A CENTRIST IS HALF REPUBLICAN AND HALF DEMOCRAT, THEREFORE A CENTRIST
IS A REPUBLICRAT...WILL YOU VOTE FOR A REPUBLICRAT IN 2004??
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Kanary (689 posts) Mon Dec-15-03 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #145
159. Um, not so sure those instincts are animal or caveman
I think animals take care of their own better than we do!
I agree with your point, and will add some things that may fit in here.
As for the animals..... most of the big predators spend most of their lives
asleep, or napping. What a life, eh? Very little of their time is actually
spent looking for food or dens, etc.
OK, so that's not important, because we're so much better than the animals..
Anthropologists have determined that most so-called "primitive" societies...
the ones we consider to have worked themselves to death, spent
approximately 20% of their time providing for their needs. What an awful
life, eh? Of course, that time would vary by seasons..... a farming people
would spend more time during the growing season, and less during the
winter, for example.
Makes us look rather sillly.
Kanary
Where are we going, and why am I in this handbasket?
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PeeWeeTheMadman (25 posts) Mon Dec-15-03 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #159
162. Primitive societies
I actually wrote a post on this topic last weekend.
The problem is that the RW has falsified history, creating a "natural
capitalism" that never existed! Societies were extremly egalitarian all the
way up to the first kings and priests in Sumer and Egypt. Even the first
agricultural societes were organized with communal land ownership, a
practice still alive among indians in Mexico to this day!
The truth is that society before the state, was much more like the ideal
society of Karl Marx than Adam Smith! This kind of argument can actually
unhinge much of the arguments of the RW, in that unequality and class are
NOT natural to humans, but introduced thanks to property rights, which are
the most radical "state intervention" in human history!
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Kanary (689 posts) Tue Dec-16-03 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #162
171. Egalitarian Societies
Where is the post your wrote, do you remember the name of the thread? I'd
really like to read it!
You are soooo right about "natural capitalism" never having existed. I grew
up in the western US, and it's clear not only that the "ancietn" Indian
societies living in the many ruins in the west were egalitarian, but the
modern-day Pueblos retain much of that same egalitarin model to this day.
Of course, we won't mention that most of the egalitarian societies were
matrilineal and matriarchal. No sense in disturbing the RW, right?
Yes, egalitarian *is* natural to humans.... they were smart - they knew at a
very deep level that they depended on each other. It's so interesting that
the middle and even lower classes buy into the myths perpetuated by the
upper classes, which are against their own best interests.
The last sentence of your post is great.... I'm saving it.
Kanary
Where are we going, and why am I in this handbasket?
.......................
PeeWeeTheMadman (25 posts) Mon Dec-15-03 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #133
140. I will try
I`m not used to writing in english, but I shall try.
As I see it, the highest goal in society should be "most hapiness for the
most people", I am an utiltiarian.
One fact that many people forget about utilitarianism is that the use you
get from a dollar bill, decreases for each additional dollarbill you get. A
homeless man will be full of joy if someone gives him a hundread dollar bill.
A lawyer hovewer wouldn`t even notice a hundread dollar bill extra. From
this can be deducted that if you "take" a hundre doller bill from a lawyer og
doctor, and gives it to a homeless person, the joy experienced by the
homeless person will be greater than the loss from the person the money is
taken. Add to this the point that as long as more people are working than is
recieving public support, each welfare client will recieve more than each
working man is giving. If you don`t have economic redistribution, the poor
would just have it to hard. Add to this the fact that if you limit the supply
of labour, people with a low market value will earn more, just look at
countries like Norway and Denmark! What happens in the US is that the
labour market bets swamped with labour, which means that the low level
workers in the US earn much less than their counterpart in the northern
welfare states.
Also, I do believe that governments should only interfere in the market if it
is really neccessary. Try to regulate the economy to "create" jobs, you end
up in a complete mess like Japan! Therefore, my opinion is that keeping
some people off the labour market, is better than having the market have
it`s way alone, or regulating and subsizing the economy to "create" jobs.
Another point is that it is practially impossible to determine who is fit for
work and who isn`t! Even in Norway, when we have ten percent of all people
on disability, there are people who obviously aren`t fit for work, who don`t
get disability, and a whole lot who shouldn`t have gotten it who get it! I
believe that the same principle should apply here as in the justice system,
innocent until proven guilty!
.......................................
PeeWeeTheMadman (25 posts) Mon Dec-15-03 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #143
151. Comparing countries
Thank you very much!
The reason us scandinavians know english so well, is that we don`t "dub"
american and english television and movies.
When it comes to work, it is important to everybody, but there seem that
europeans have a higher tolerance for unemployment than americans and
asians. Hovewer norwegians, though our work participation rate are among
the highest if not the highest in the industrialized world, we work few hours
per person. Work is therefore less important to norwegians than the
inhabitants of many other nations.
When it comes to norwegian disability, yes it is that high. One reason is
that we have a high "practical minimum wage", and anyone who can`t hold a
job that pays around $11 therefore ends up on disability. On the positive
side, we have the world second "richest" poor people, only being beaten by
Switzerland, and relative povery are at around 7 percent, which is fairly
low.
I certainly see the point on retraining, and we have very good
oppurtunities for reeducation in this coutry. The problem is that not
everyone is cut out for higher education, and if you are not teorically
gifted and can`t manange physical labour, we have a problem.
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Granite (24 posts) Tue Dec-16-03 04:14 AM
Response to Reply #143
172. That's where increased leisure-time can play a role
Sorry, don't mean to jump in on this thread late - I've been reading with
fascination for the past hour! I agree that in the US, we tend to identify
with our work - we are what we do. But that could be part of the problem.
Research shows that Americans are overworked and overstressed. The
reasons for this are multi-faceted. Part of this is economic - we need to
work more today to afford the basics of life (the dual-income family is as
much necessity as anything else). Part of this is the cycle of work-spend-
debt that so many fall victim to. Part of this is the Protestant work-ethic
that creates that need to work, and our aversion to laziness.
The fight for leisure has been a workers-rights issue since the early part of
the 20th century, and somewhere along the line we've given up this fight.
Having opportunities for meaningful leisure can help people begin to
identify with other kinds of purposive action that is non-work related -
hobbies, volunteerism, family, community, avocations, etc. More leisure
time provides more opportunity for activity that is, at its base,
intrinsically rewarding, and also plays a role in enhancing and
strengthening our communities.
Increasing leisure for all Americans is more than just "nice to have after
everything else gets taken care of" IMHO. More leisure time is a key
progressive principle, and should be a centerpiece for progressive reform
in the U.S.
Great thread - lots I would have liked to respond to! This has helped me tap
into my other political self - the progressive self, the self that fights my
urge towards centrism!
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Kanary (689 posts) Tue Dec-16-03 04:26 AM
Response to Reply #172
173. More leisure = better health= lower health costs
How about also more time for contemplation -- Walt Whitman style? Lots of
possibilities.
I hope you will go ahead and respond to more. It's still here.
Kanary
Where are we going, and why am I in this handbasket?
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Kanary (689 posts) Mon Dec-15-03 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #140
147. Glad to have the Norwegian Perspective!
Thanks so much, PeeWee, for taking the time and effort to log in here, and
illuminate some of this for us! I didn't know from your first post that you are
from Scandinavia, and I'm really glad to hear your perspective!
You make a very good point about just not worrying about the "
determination" so much. Whew... that lets out a lot of tension right there,
eh? IN the US, what it has to do with is the jealousy and righteous anger of
the RW, who think that any sort of being without work is akin to sin. I think
they secretly wish to quit their jobs, so they think anyone without a job is
"getting away with something". It's nearly impossible to get them to
understand that coming to the realization that one can't work is uusally a
very painful process.
I want to know more about your society, and right now can't think of the
questions to ask.
Please stick around, 'K? Your input is really helpful!
Kanary, grateful for Scandinavians!
Where are we going, and why am I in this handbasket?
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PeeWeeTheMadman (25 posts) Mon Dec-15-03 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #147
154. Thank you very much
Actually, I have a problem with norwegian libertarians(the only get a
couple of hundread votes, but they are "fun" anyway) claiming that noone is
poor in America, because I don`t have access to much information about the
situation is the US.
One great point is that norwegian work participation rates are NOT lower
than the american work participation rates. The reason for the high number
of norwegians on both welfare and work, is that most women work in this
country, and you have a situation where you either work or are on public
support. I think the reason the US system functions so well as it does, is
that many people, both women and other family members are supported by
other members of their family.
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redqueen (1000+ posts) Mon Dec-15-03 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #122
157. The problem will only get worse
Edited on Mon Dec-15-03 11:37 PM by redqueen
First of all I want to thank you for joining this thread and commenting. We
Americans are starved for viewpoints of anyone outside of mainstream, USA.
This is eventually going to bite us all right on the ass. As productivity
continues to rise due to technological improvements, efficiency, etc... it
will only worsen.
We all need to seriously think about how many jobs will be lost not only to
other countries, but to advanced robots -- probably within the next 10 to
15 years.
With this 'everyone should work' attitude, which is nice -- yes, everyone
should be occupied doing something, certainly -- we seem to be avoiding
the inevitable.
We need to think long and hard about how much sense it makes, in the long
term, to consider the only thing worth spending your time doing as
something that earns you a check from someone profiting from your labors.
Teachers, social workers... how many professions were you talked out of
because 'you can't earn any money'. I know I heard that from my father
incessantly due to wanting to be a teacher.
Light up America! Vote for Kucinich! www.kucinich.us
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Lydia Leftcoast (1000+ posts) Tue Dec-16-03 05:06 AM
Response to Reply #157
175. Living to work
Americans DO work too hard--those that have jobs, at least. In addition,
our whole educational system is warped by the idea that its only purpose is
to prepare young people for jobs. That's why school budget problems bring
about cuts to music and art courses and not to sports programs--sports are
believed to build "teamwork" and "discipline." Sports are touted as the cure
for unmotivated students, for juvenile delinquency, and for the nation's
obesity problem. (Not coincidentally, they are also regimented and
dependent on a coach whose word is law.) The recent emphasis on test
scores has only made the situation worse. Young people are supposed to
grow up competent in the dry basics, period.
No wonder Americans live to work. What else can they do when the whole
educational system seems determined to mold them in that way, not only with
the concentration on "the basics" in K-12, but also with the presence of
college majors like Personnel Management, Corporate Health and Fitness,
Finance, and Hotel and Restaurant Management, majors that are considered
vo-tech courses in other countries?
In most other countries, higher education gives you a grounding in a real
academic subject area and your first employer trains you for the specifics
of the job. Incidentally, this was the patern in the U.S. until the mid 1970s.
What else can Americans do but work when they are not encouraged to
cultivate interests in the arts, community affairs, or the world outside the
U.S.?
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ACK (1000+ posts) Tue Dec-16-03 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #122
174. Yes we do have a work fetish
An ex-pat friend from Bosnia who fled the war once commented that he
missed home because Americans don't know how to have fun. All they want to
do is work he said.
I do not think MuddleoftheRoad or anyone else would object to five weeks
off.
Disability is important because you are right there are people that simply
cannot work and abandoning them to the street is not only wrong but
socially damaging when those same people end up in the hospitals and other
dire straights.
What many leftist even in this country fail to realize is that the entire
welfare system in America is in jeopardy from the radical Conservatives who
believe in either a laize farre or a corporatist (almost fascist) state.
This whole thread got off on a completely maddening tangent.
My post unfortunately started it.
I said that the American left has to completely re-frame Welfare into a
workfare system because of America's love of the "work ethic" for those that
are not completely rich.
Work Programs for those that can work. This makes the infrastructure
stronger and it can be more than just "make work" if done the old FDR way.
Artists painted murals on walls and performers put on shows in towns and
such during the Great Depression for example as well as building projects
and such.
Transportation. There is something called sprawl in America. People in one
area cannot get to jobs in another close area within their own communities
becuase of a lack of transportation. Get people that can work to jobs in
their area of the country.
Job Retraining. Give people the opportunity to train for jobs available in
their areas and better access to loans for not just university but also
technical training.
Daycare. This may shock you man but there are women in America that have
to abandon their children to make enough money to pay their families way
through life. I proposed that their has to be a solution for this.
Is any of this concrete? No, these were just ideas I threw out.
Disability is very important but take any of my above remarks as an opening
for destroying disability.
At midnight all the agents
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camero (1000+ posts) Tue Dec-16-03 05:13 AM
Response to Reply #174
177. Don't apologize. You did a good job.
I think we do need some make work. Work also gives us a sense of community
and purpose in life. Like we are helping people. Notice how many lottery
winners still work even with the millions. Its because work gives us a sense
of purpose in life.
But there is a definite need for balance between work and home life. and a
host of other issues that I am glad you brought up.
Before I got diabetes, I was a truck driver over the road. This line of work
is not covered under the Fair Labor Standards Act. And I put in more than
my share of 100 hr weeks. We were encouraged to log loading and unloading
as not work time. Knowing all this, I knew that the pubs would love to do
away with the 40 hr week because more time means more money for them.
But now I can't do physical labor anymore with this. No disability and did
not go to college where i could get skills to use my brain.
If there wer
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