What will you do if (or when) sites like DU are shut down?

Patriot Act II legislation has already been passed through covert means, and it might be wise to consider the possibility that martial law is fast approaching.

Logic would dictate that the neoconservatives would never allow websites such as the Democratic Underground to flourish--said shutdown of progressive sites would be necessary in order to dispel national and global coalitions comprised of moderates, SANE conservatives, and liberals.

Shouldn't we be mentally prepared for the day when the attempt to log onto the DU is met with that familiar white screen and black text? And bartcop, mother jones, or even the nation? What would we do? What steps would YOU take to organize? What thoughts would run through your head?

Please don't tell me I'm being paranoid. Not in my wildest dreams (or nightmares, natch) did I entertain the notion that America could descend into fascism so effortlessly, but it is staring us in the face, nonetheless.

Edit: One more thing. This thread is not intended as an exercise. My intentions are deadly f%^#ing serious.

Couldn't we have foreign sponcered sites and still do the same thing? Can our government shut down sites owned by foreigners?

however, a canadian mirror would be simplest by the proximity to US.

They can't shut DU down, only force it to move. That said, they could use china's example and start limiting the international content visible to americans on the web... and in that case, really shut it down... but then the first amendment is really gone and the constituion dead, and we're in a civil war.

"WASHINGTON, Dec. 17 Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) is now prisoner No. 1 in what has developed into a global detention system run by the Pentagon (news - web sites) and the Central Intelligence Agency (news - web sites), according to government officials.

It is a secretive universe, they said, made up of large and small facilities scattered throughout the world that have sprouted up to handle the hundreds of suspected terrorists of Al Qaeda, Taliban warlords and former officials of the Iraqi government arrested by the United States and its allies since the Sept. 11 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon and the war in Iraq (news - web sites)."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=276016

Hello from Germany,
Dirk

Second Ammendment... and it is exactly this

who ya gonna shoot?

if you cannot figure this out... I wonder.

Now this is absolutely the last choice that any of us will have... there are many others

But a civil war is not out of the realm of possibity... so it may be time for you to decide whether defending the Constititon from Foreign and Domestic Enemies is something you are willing to do.

After all... you and I could get killed... are you willng to water the tree of freedom?

Only the "Bad People". :evilgrin:

who are the good guys and who are the bad guys will get
murky VERY FAST....

Still it is time people decide where they stand if the absolute worst
case scenario and what some fear happens.

If it does, you will not have that much time to decide what to do

Remember, it may get you killed, or wounded, and the worst kind of war
is a civil war... they are rarely civil

I know where i stand when it comes to this

I took that oath to protect the Constitution and yes I am willing to die for freedom... oh and before you ask, I have been under fire, so no I am not saying this out of playng way too many video games... I hold no such delusions of honor and glory... there is only honor and glory for the dead.

Pass the freedom, please?

So the 'Second Amendment' is just a delusion.

Just so if you happen to raise arms against the government, they will declare you a terrorist and say hello to Gitmo.....

Sorry dude, the media is against you and the people are really dumb to see the manipulations.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Thanks

This is exactly why the Second Amendment is needed.

And yes I have seen what guns, even asault weapons, do to the
human body, no delusions here

Them running over people holding BB guns with Tanks. A scary scene indeed.

I know you're trying to be brave and all but I cannot imagine how you can fight the government with arms. It's like trying to put down a big oil pipeline fire with lit matchsticks.

Maybe a civil disobedience would help but guns? Hell no, whom are we kidding?

Good luck with your fights though.

Guerilla tactics. Hit and run. It's the only way.

A Civil War in America would be ugly indeed, but still possible.

I think the best tactic would be civil disobedience.

Civil Disobedience will no longer work come November 3, 2004. They'll strip your citizenship, ship you off to Gitmo and disappear your ass. You'll be "aiding terrorists" if you participate in such things.

Those who engage in civil disobedience will be treated no different from those who participate in civil war.

Oh yeah, they SHOOT THE PROTESTERS!!! Good tactical advice.

then the guerilla tactics haven't helped their cause, has it?

All it has achieved is more killing of innocent lives that is, more Iraqi people have died due to guerilla warfare.

Do you think the US will withdraw tommorrow? Hell no, they are in and they are there to stay.

There was plenty of it here in the U.S. before the war...including those mass protests. But they went off and started the damn war anyways. I can understand the reasoning behind civil disobedience, and I really do admire people like MLK and Gandhi who practiced it and made it work, but the way I see our country going today...I just don't know if civil disobedience will be enough.

People took to the streets, they came with skiploaders to scoop 'em up and haul them away.
And this time, the bleach-blonds on the Glass Tit will froth about how those "terra-ists" are being dealt with decisivly by our GLORIOUS homeland Security Minister, Tommy Timber-Toes....

Yeah, hit the streets with your anti-Starbucks tactics. They won't use rubber bullets and firehoses this time.

This is the last act... there are many that happen BEFORE

I just said, that if this comes to the nightmare that some
round these parts think it will come, it may come down to that

I also beleive that things are not that desperate YET... and we still have a chance to get the country back in many other ways...

But hey, whatever trips yoru triger...

That civil disobedience would be more effective than guns when it really comes down to a tyrannical government? Who's kidding who now?

In a state of civil war, non co-operation would halt their war machinery.

And it has been proven to work.

Everything that needs to be done is already being outsourced.

?

and having a gun will earn you immortality?

I think not.

You might kill a few but rest assured they will return you the favour.

But who would have superior numbers? Even in my wildest dreams I can't see a majority of Americans supporting acts bordering on dictatorship, and therein lies the true power. Even hardcore Republicans I know would start reaching for their rifles by the time we've reached that point. Just as in Iraq today or Vietnam in the 60's and 70's, it comes down to superior firepower vs. superior numbers. And superior numbers usually win out in a guerrilla war.

If you do have the superior number, wouldn't civil disobedience help your cause more effectively save the violence and bloodshed?

I am not saying people wont die while staging civil disobedience but it will certainly be more humane.

Ain't what it used to be.

1. CD works best when people aren't afraid to lose their jobs and have a family to fall back on when they do. When Bush* protesters are ready to spill over the free-speech zone barricades and defy the jackboots, get back to me.

2. People have been protesting so many different things by now that the average non-protester sees them as crying wolf. Utilizing superior numbers is made more difficult by an apathetic media.

Most people have no clue of the realities of real civil disobedience. You will be arrested. You will risk your job & lifestyle. You will risk your health.

"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
— Mahatma Ghandi

I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. My sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history and naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture, in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry, and porcelain.

- John Adams

for that I commend you

Just remember

Government Receives its Powers from the People
"Governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed." --Thomas Jefferson: Declaration of Independence, 1776. ME 1:29, Papers 1:429

"I consider the source of authority with us to be the Nation. Their will, declared through its proper organ, is valid till revoked by their will declared through its proper organ again also." --Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, 1792. ME 8:301

"Independence of the will of the nation is a solecism, at least in a republican government." --Thomas Jefferson to Thomas Ritchie, 1820. ME 15:298

"What government can bear depends not on the state of science, however exalted, in a select band of enlightened men, but on the condition of the general mind." --Thomas Jefferson to Lafayette, 1817. (*) ME 15:114

"The government of a nation may be usurped by the forcible intrusion of an individual into the throne. But to conquer its will so as to rest the right on that, the only legitimate basis, requires long acquiescence and cessation of all opposition." --Thomas Jefferson to ----, 1825. ME 16:127

I think that is another sorry delusion.

If everybody was like you in the late 18th century, we'd all be subjects right now rather than citizens.

I kid you not.

vision of the Founding Fathers...

By the way, I still hold that Enlightenment vision and though this is the darkest time in US History, in the modern period, it is not the first time this happens

Know the history... you may be inspired...

Try the Second American Revolution, the one not taught in American schools these days... the Revolution of 1800

That is the vision that inspirres me, as well as the Civil Rights.

And as I said, I do not believe things are as bad as many believe

But prepare for the absolute worst, hope for the best...

have been exaggerated too much.

I am skeptical that the 'founding fathers' or the powers to be at that time had only noble intentions in founding this country.

I take it

It was not only the Ameircan Revolution, that was a cap in many ways...

What the 17th and 18th century did to the world was give a vision.

This is a vision of a civil society that we live in TODAY... and the
one that our current Tories, must like Edmund Burke, tried to destroy or stop...

That is the well spring that we come from

If you do not believe in it, fine... and if you do not believe it was that significant of a revolution... yes, yes it was... we have been fighting (in the West) to not only preserve the initial goals of the Enlightenment, but expand them. Granted the Founding Fathers would possibly (with the excpetion of Franklin) have been surprised by the Civil Rights, but they gave us a set of ideals... and it is our job to preserve them, or go back to the Dark Ages...

Maybe the Renassaince will come one day after many centuries of darkness and they will ask... what happened to what once was called the West and the phisophers of the Enlightenment? Maube just historians and philosophers will read John Locke and Jefferson, and Frnaklin, and Fray Servando Teresa de Mier and Montesquiu as curiosities, just sa we read Ovid, and Homer and Plato.

If you are willing to let that dream die, then it is already death... and I wondder what you live for... or what you are willing to die for.

Yes I consdier myself a child of the Enligthtenment in many ways... and that is what inspires some of us... we know what is at stake, in the long run not only for this country, but a wider Western Tradition.

to me those words mean nothing.

I dont think founding fathers were that great or that this country is the greatest.

As Gandhi would say, 'Western Civilization is a good idea'. I leave it at that.

" we have been fighting (in the West) to not only preserve the initial goals of the Enlightenment, but expand them."

That is a scary thought to me. Bush pretty much says the same thing.

human rights and better treatment for all... separation of church and state, I could go on, this means nothng to you.

Also I did not say the country was the greatest, those are YOUR words not mine.

American exceptionalism and for that matter Imperialism is not part of the bagage of the Enlightenemtn, but truly of the Tories such as Edmund Burke... gong down to Andrew Jackson, McKienley, TR and Bush.

By the way, that is Bush, a descendant of Burke...

But hey, if they mean nothing for you... I guess it is time you stand aside, it will be the patriots who are fighting this fight to preserve OUR DEMOCRACY inspired by those words... and those ideals.

By the way, I bet you did not know who Fray Servando Teresa de Mier is.... or for that matter many other minor members of the Enlightenment or the thousands of Free Masons who were the common people. Fee clue do not look in US History, you will not find him there.

As I said you are an avowed pacifist... cool that is fine with me.


You meay want to read Zinn's books as well... and many popular histories... I understand that the words of Jefferson did not mean squat to the slave, (actually they did) and that is why it led to a civil war... and the first expansion... the second the 1880s, the third one, the 1930s, and lastly the 1960s... and of course what reafimred this.. ideal... both the Revolution of 1800 a non violent event and in some ways the age of Reconstruction... and boy have I over simplied the civil war, the 1880s, the womens rights, the civil rights, the sufragists, and other events to the nth degree, as one cause was never the only one driving it... history is NOT that bloody simple.

Maybe yuo should study this history before you ignore it, whole sale

Those who refuse to learn from the past are bound to repeat it... and yuo are making the mistake of the 1800 silent and lost generation, hte first time that the Tories almost won... Is that what you want?

until they loose it

And this is the crux of the matter, whether people are willing to
fight for it, if need be.

I do not think that things are taht desperate yet... but the cost of
freedom is eternal vigilance... and that is why we are now standing up in a civil form, and doing what we can.

Protest away... and lets pray that protest is all we need to do, AND
VOTE... 1800 the Second American Revolution, the Founding Fathers
went through that test, they lived through it... SO CAN WE.

They simply threaten you and your family with death if you don't meet a certain quota per day at your factory position, ala Nazi threats to Jewish slave labor forces. You lead a sit-in like MLK or Ghandi, you get a bullet between the eyes, and the will of most people following you fades pretty fast at that point. Seeing how low the current administration has sunk, I wouldn't put it past them if they achieved full power in a dictatorship to simply execute people as examples.

just give up.

Nothing. They will have their cannon fodder to fend you off and you will have your life. Either way, a grim situation.

My hubby is Indian.

....My AR-15 (which would be made full auto) and my full auto UZI, would own all over any catchy rhyming sign ;)

Will a firearm stop a tank? Probably not. Works pretty well against infantry however, better then kung-fu, at least.

I think you're severely overestimating the military. Many of them would likely defect in the event of a civil war, (probably bringing serious hardware of their own...) and the citizenry VASTLY outnumber them in the first place. Jets have to land sometime, tanks have to refuel and re-arm.

I'd also wager that other countrys would come to the citzens aid if things ever truly got "that bad".

For the military, it would be an unwinnable war. The number differance is just to great. I dont think any military could stand against a well armed citizenry in full-fledged rebellion.

Hardware is nice, but Bravery is not a function of firepower.



Edit to add: The chances of anything like this coming to pass withen the next 50 years are next to nil. So it's really just speculation in the end. I personally, do not believe the government will get to the point where we have reason to take up arms anytime soon.

While I agree that the guns that are legally allowed in this country are woefully inadequate when compared to our military might, a little creativity and invention can perform miracles. Think Anarchist Cookbook, and other such like publications. There is also the distinct possibility that we can capture more sophisticated weapons off of our opponents.

Remember Vietnam, for even though they started off with little more than punji sticks and antiquidated firearms, they took down the largest superpower going. It can be done.

When the tanks come rolling down 7th Street, a gun won't make an ounce of difference.

Live free or die? I'll take the latter, if I must.

Or Vietcong?

Or the Iraq Resistance?

Defense of Lenningrad?

Concord?

Same theme, different page.

"Their Weaponry" hasn't been doing so hot against home-made bombs and mines, has it?

Send us a postcard from "The Camps", OK?

nt

Ever heard of "molotov cocktails"? Very powerful simple yet effective devices.

Large armored tanks and oil/gas storage depots are sitting ducks.

Same with all the pipelines crisscrossing the country.

All too vulnerable to simple acts of freedom fighters/guerrillas.

Truth always wins out - it's just the length of time it takes to achieve this that is crucial.

Enlightenment did win over the "dark ages" - but it took centuries.

There is a strong chance the military (not the brass, but the soldiers themselves) would revolt against the gov't if a serious effort at military controlled fascism were ever made.

Then again, up until yesterday, I thought the notion of Due Process was unassailable.

seriously though, being Canadian. I'd invite Skinner and the gang to restart the site in my basement.

That would be the first thing to try.

Not time to panic yet.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

As Vincent Bugliosi said, after it became clear that the 2000 election was corrupted by the black pope fat tony scalia and bush crime family consigliere jimmy 'the fixer' baker, "there should have been marching in the streets."

The Supreme Court should have been impeached, Bugliosi's book "The Betrayal of American democracy.", sets out how it could have done.

THEN, you could have changed things. Then came 9-11, the already written Patriot Act, the already planned invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, now Patriot Act II and the neo-con elite already hinting about martial law...

NOW, marching on Washington will only result in Work Camp Construction stocks booming.

'Course, I'm a cynic, and am profoundly dissapointed that the egalitarian ethos that America was founded upon, and has until now made her the envy of Democratic history, has been so conspicuouly absent 'lo these last three years...

Prove me wrong, I beg you. Take back your country. Because with the Corporate Prime Minister Paul Martin in charge up here in Canada, I fear that we will take Austria's place in a modern version of the Anschluss...

the last thing to die is HOPE

And yes if it comes down to work camps the rope and the noose is firly on my neck

You have no idea, probably, of how much is going on...

The revolution shall not be televised, it was not in 1800 either or in 1932

...that it won't be put into full force until after the 2004 elections.

Which gives us not quite a year to evaluate the situation and be in, oh, say, Costa Rica before the hammer comes down.

... get DUers email addresses about two years ago just in case the aformentioned happened?

That would violate DU's privacy policy.

Kind of at least. I forget how the project went down exactly but it was an "opt in" kind of thing. You posted your info voluntarily.

I too have been wondering about this. We need a back-up plan.

I am glad he doesn't have my email.

Anyway, if this site goes down, the newsgroups are always there.

And sent e-mail to let each of us know that we were on the "in case of DU shutdown" list.

So it wasn't voluntary?

If you did, you volunteered. If you didn't you did not volunteer.

It WAS voluntary.

One of my prolonged road trips, no doubt...

e-mail me, Will!
rbham44@shaw.ca

He either posted his addy or asked for a PM and had those interested respond. I don't recall exactly, altho I still have his response tucked away in my "stuff to keep" folder on that account.

I wasn't here two years ago.

And before I discovered this message board, that the internet would not be allowed to continue in its current form. It will continue to get more centralized and more commercial. The Internet as a grassroots phenomenon is in its last days.

I don't even think it will be the government necessarily that will shut down the grassroots part, though they will certainly implement policies that help the corporations take control.

Work for the best, but prepare yourselves for the worst. Guns, ammunition, and canned food are not that expensive now. You can purchase a Russian bolt action with over 400 cartridges for less than $125. Canned beans and Spam may suck, but it'll be better than going hungry. Again, I'm deadly serious as well. There's no need for panic or rash actions, but there's indeed cause for careful preparations. With neo-con extremists now in the mainstream screaming invectives against all who disagree with them, it's not that long of a reach to assume they'd put us all behind barbed wire if given a chance. At least if it came to that extreme, you'd have the choice of dying on your feet.

Prepared for the worst while hoping for the best.

I was tempted to say that you're paranoid. Then I remembered that they went so far as to shut down the message board on the Rage Against the Machine site after 9/11...

That will keep the Republicans from trying anything like this. And no they can't appoint a complete fascist to the open slot unless they get 60 votes in the senate. Even then they still might not be able to do it.

If she retires, all bets are off.

elected.

SCOTUS looms large in November, and sadly, we must politicize it now.

Sad days indeed.

The Republicans are so close to 60 right now it's not even funny because they've got several pink tutus in their hands already.

How long before Lieberman is completely turned?

And this is the same SCOTUS that put Herr Bush in power in the first place.

Do what you like, I'm preparing for the absolute worst.

When they decided who would be the President.

Damn the four dissenters, their dissent was far too timid. They should have resigned and led an impeachment.

The mere thought that a hair shirt wearing, self immolating, sick , twisted, theocratically inclined menace like Fat Tony Scalia isn't yet behind bars for treason is in itself astonishing.

Of course, according to turnout percentages, Americans didn't like voting anyway.

Oh well, that's why the CIA invented Prozac...

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

by the way, I simply, for the most part, don't care

I usually post what is on my mind... that said tht is the nature
of human society I guess

I agree. Although I find an incredible amount of useful information here at DU--it is my primary source for news and views--I'm aware that it is going south 'in the name of civility.' The 'politely put' RW talking points are beginning to make me sick. PLEASE private me if you have links to other forums as back ups!

...ONLY because they don't feel threatened by it. While some are busy fighting for their 'right' to have a gun...the Bushies are busy taking the rest of your rights away.

- Just because they allow you to rant on a bulletin board doesn't mean they haven't taken away the first amendment. The end of free speech came when the so-called free press wasn't allowed to report the truth about the government.

- A fascist government doesn't worry one whit about individuals with guns. Hell...they can gas or flatten a whole block of dissenters.

in 2000. Or don't you remember? I remeber all too well. It made me cry, absolutely cry.

While some are busy fighting for their 'right' to have a gun...the Bushies are busy taking the rest of your rights away.

Before we take up arms, let's try this:

Take back the media.
Enormous, peaceful mass protests, aimed directly for notice by freedom lovers in OTHER nations.
Enormous amounts of voters in 2004.

It can be done.

Priorities, people.

anything that could be done with those?

And there's also IRC.

they have my email address and my phone number from my many donations; I would hope for some sort of mass email.

No, I don't think you are being paranoid.

buy some weapons and hone my marksmanship

That's what all of us need to do!!

Bounce a sat server off all the Satalites and D.U. Becomes a true underground.

and I already got a good amount of them.

because they need to use the net to find their targets and they're after more physical enemies. They learn from us, I'm sure. And they learn how to counter. We precede the mobs with our concerns. We are a mine of information for Rovian propagandists. They also have to believe that the best defense is an offense - we give it to them. And they are also still using the myth of democracy for their foreign policy. They can't do anything yet. But, it will probably come with dictums imposed on and lists given to servers.

Why not separate peacefully? Why don't we just all agree to divide the country? It's possible for people to separate peacefully if they really believe in PEACE ON EARTH AND GOOD WILL TOWARDS MAN. Otherwise, don't send the cards and don't turn around and greet each other in peaceful, but empty gestures. Otherwise, don't teach your kids about how great our country is.

Hypocrisy still reigns. There is still a little time for souls to do what they were put here to do. Honor, not destroy. Trust, not defame and steal. Plus more.