Socially liberal, fiscally conservative....

How many times have heard people label themselves as such and does it get on your nerves as much as it does mine? To me it sounds like someone wanting alot of free stuff but not being willing to pay for it.

Yes, I want to have all the freedom and programs. But not if I've gotta pay taxes!

As i've said here a dozen times, being a fiscal conservative doesn't mean no taxes. That's an economic conservative.

A fiscal conservative believes that gov't should only spend what it takes in, but it doesn't mean that gov't shouldn't raise taxes to get the money it needs.

The right has hijacked the term fiscal conservative and has tried to redefine it to mean low taxes, low spending. That's an inaccurate defintion and we've got to stop letting them define the terms of the debate.

I'm a fiscal conservative. I think taxes should be raised until our deficit is gone. I've published papers in which i've described myself as such, and never had an economist dispute the term. The economists know what the real definition is.

And now, so do you.
The Professor

Haven't recovered from the last onslaught.

Another wave of what?

I guess so.

it looks that way.:-)

making sure people like Bush don't gut the treasury
AND keeping our social programs viable.
Just the opposite of what we are getting.

If you mean like the fiscal policy of current "conservatives", yeah.

But mostly "fiscal conservative" is used to mean "no big deficits" and "don't spend money you don't have." In that case, count me in.

.

a deficit-hawk is what somebody who favors low deficits, they may or may not also be fiscal conservatives

it embodies lower or low taxes, lower or low spending, free or freeer trade as far as the basic tenets go.

One who seeks to cut taxes, one who seeks to limit governmental spending/growth or one who seeks to stay within the budget. And the term has been badly stretched out of shape (try a good google and you'll see a mass of opinions with little agreement), so I think dwickham is right on the "prefered" wording to cut confusion.

To quote John McCain they are spending money like a drunken sailor. And at the same time they are cutting taxes.

and he hardly fits the description of being cheap, unrealistic, etc.

Lots of things that are "socially liberal" cost nothing or may save money in the federal budget, compared to alternatives.

Under drug laws signed by Clinton in 1995, Thomas Jefferson would have been excecuted for being a drug king pin (defined as growing over 60,000 hemp, cannabis, or coccaine plants for commerical purposes), as he grew an average of over 70,000,000 hemp plants per year.

And then there's:

DMCA (Opposition to the DMCA is necessary to qualify as a liberal in my books. So seemingly-liberal sponsors like Barney Frank are even out, even though I would vote for him over any Repuke who ran against him. Dean and Kucinich both oppose DMCA though.)

DOMA

His honouring Jefferson Davis while governor of Arkansas.

His whoring to the CCP. (Something both Republicans and DLCers seem to do nowadays. True liberals support the DPP, the TSU, or the TIP and uber-cons support the KMT.)

His giving in to Sam Nunn and Colin Powell on a certain millitary issue in 1993.

Is he better than Bush? My middle finger could be better than Bush. Was he great, or even good? Hell no.

but I think he does meet the definition of "socially liberal" for a lot of Americans (supportive of civil rights, equal employment opportunity, abortion rights, environmental preservation, etc.).

And that basically everything that the federal government did was somewhere halfway between Clinton's ideology and Newt Gingrich's ideology.

substitute the term "responsible"

there are those of us who want to see our tax dollars used responsibly rather than being wasted

saying that--I have yet to see very many Republicans who can call themselves fiscally conservative because they have succeeded in running up the deficit beyond compare

Personally, I prefer the "tax and spend" label to "borrow and spend"!

the socially liberal, fiscally conservative.

I like the fiscally responsible term, though. Don't blow our money on a war in Iraq or giving rich people tax cuts. Take care of folks here at home first with the money we do have and don't spend what we don't on things we don't need (war, missle defense, etc.).

I like that. It is a winner with me. If a candidate can live up to that, i'll vote for them... wow... 4 words... how simple.

:)

And I think these people will vote Dem this time because of Whistle Ass's irresponsibility.

being misused...they were so fiscally conservative they forgot to fund their fire department properly....that's why they burned down.

Enforcing the building codes and making sure property owners have fulfilled their obligations to keep brush cleared away from buildings would have prevented a lot of the losses from the recent fires.

(sarcasm) I agree that making owners clear brush is one way to reduce fires. It has endless complications that need to be considered like what about disabled folks or those too poor to rent equipment. I still think it would be a good law, but needs lots of hearings to refine it. Such a law is very liberal!!! I like it.

(He said so during the confrontation with Al Franken)
Though he doesn't make a big deal out of it, while he keeps on making a big deal of the supposed fiscal irresponsibility of Dems.

If you look at the fiscal balance of various administrations, whithout exception 'conservatives' spend more govt money then Dems.
It's just that Repubs spend it on corporations, not on social programs.

conservative" does not mean greedy or stingy, it simply means (to me) getting your money's worth. I wouldn't spend $87B on a quagmire (which the current "conservative" regime is doing), but I have no problem using similar amounts to provide health care to those who need it.

What "free stuff" did you have in mind?

and it was a major tenet of the moderate Democrats for many many years. It means having government programs that work, AND funding them fully so that they work properly.

But, seeing as in the 80s and 90s many Dems were just as happy as Repubs to slash the "Good Government" programs that focused on preventing problems (as opposed to "curing" them after the fact), it's gotten harder and harder to find "Good Government" type liberals around anymore... :(

I don't mind social programs that work, but I do mind passing the laws and funding bills for them without reguard to the overall income that's going to fund those without adding trillions on our future debt.

Didn't the Big Dog leave a healthy surplus and a working Government to let Junior spoil it with special interests and a Trillion plus "War Of Mass Distraction?"

But I think you may be misinterpreting what they mean. I don't think they mean they're socially liberal in the sense of wanting social programs to help people. I think they mean they aren't anti-gay, anti-abortion, anti-Hollywood. IOW, they don't sign onto the right wing "morality" agenda.

That's what I was just about to say. That's my understanding as well. And it's also what I meant when I used to say it. (But I'm not a "conservative" anymore :))

It doesn't refer to social PROGRAMS, like Medicare, but to the whole cultural schtick and dates back to when "conservative" meant opposing things like "liberal" divorce laws.

lowest spending and lowest deficits - in each budget proposed during the Reagan years... was from the US House (democrats!)... Reagan LOVED to spend money. He just liked to see it go to his defense contracting buddies instead of social programs. Then the Clinton years ... erased those darn deficits... then the Bush spending explosion.

Time to tear that ridiculous association of fiscal conservatism into the shreds that represent cue cards - not reality of governing by the republicans over the past 23 years.

Since Eisenhower was president, democratic presidents have accumulated budget deficits totaling around $300 billion and republican presidents have accumulated budget deficits totaling around $3 trillion. In that same period of time the annual budget deficit has exceeded 3% of GDP 15 times under a republican president and never under a democratic president.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2004/sheets/hist01z3.xls
(Note that the budget for the first fiscal year of a presidential term is from the previous term and the estimates for 2003 and subsequent years are no longer valid.)

especially when it's not my money.

This is someone who adopts a progressive stance on things like affirmative action, gender and gay rights, etc., but who favors regressive taxation and a reduced welfare state, such as moving back the age for Social Security pension, Medicare (like Dean, who wants to move it back to age 70), and wants less welfare, less subsidized housing, and reduced funding for the social safety net, etc.

By doing so, they signal wealthy donors and business lobbies that they are in favor of policies that favor then, and so therefore the politician gets more donations, and of course makes available many lucrative lobbying postitions after retirement.

Of course, the old definition of "Liberal" was someone who was in favor of the Great Society. Europe, and to some degree, Canada, went on to develop strong welfare states. We did not, in part because of the re-definition of Liberalism.

I prefer neo-liberal or New Democrat because people think of supply-side economics when you say fiscally conservative. I'm a progressive but feel that free market reforms can do good.

"Liberal does not mean wastrel" was one of his well-known sayings. What it means is simply that we should pay as we go for the social and physical betterment of society, and not do it the 'Master Card way' by putting our children and grandchildren into debt.

...or others for that matter.

If one should be concerned whether or not ones opinion will be properly labeled, then this will certainly obstruct any progressive (or should I say liberal?) thinking.

Nobody in their right mind likes paying taxes. If being fiscally conservative refers to that, then by all means, stick your label on me.
I am strongly opposed to wasting tax dollars. I think the current budget is an abomination. I think that the Government makes poor judgments in prioritizing their spending. Does that make me a fiscal conservative?

Whatever.

I would double my tax rate to insure free medical and a worry free retirement down the road.

Whatever

Well then, make sure you attach a note to the IRS this April when you file your returns:

"This money to be spend on worry-free retirement only. Thank you."

I am all for proper healthcare and retirement (what do you think Kooch is doing below my posts?), and if that comes at a price, then that is fine. The necessities I get at the grocery store cost money too. However, I do believe that there is sufficient room in the budget to do all these things at no additional cost for the American working community.

hahahahahahahahahaha Like there is a group of long haired tree hugging leftist hippies cheering on $700.00 hammers, defense over charges, and rooting for anyone caught cheating on welfare.

The term fiscal conservative is a lie.
BTW the Ultra Right Wing Repug Senator in the family, tells everyone he is a compassionate conservative. "I lean liberal on the social issues, and and fiscally conservative" So sayeth the distinguished gentleman.

Because to my insight it basically means "I'll do what I want, but I'm keeping my money for me."

eom

Every repub administration has increased government spending in such a way that it does not benefit people who depend on social programs, rather it benefits big business.

I guess it all depends on how one defines "well spend".

To me it sounds like someone wanting alot of free stuff but not being willing to pay for it.

To me being anything other than fiscally conservative means flailing impotently at problems by throwing cash at them and hoping a fix materializes.

:D

The country runs on money.

Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, unemployment, welfare, FDA (meat inspection), CDC (flu shots), homeless shelters, soup kitchens, public housing, etc, etc all take money. Maintaining social safety nets like civilized people would want to do requires a progressive understanding of the larger responsibility of society.

By saying "fiscally conservative" all they mean is that they don't want to fund a civilized society, but it makes people feel progressive because they don't want religion in the schools or marijuana illegal or discrimination against gays or environmental pillage, take your pick.

That's certainly better than nothing, but it isn't what matters most about an advanced society paying its way to maintain some social responsibility. That's where the rubber meets the road in the Democratic ideology.

What 'socially liberal and fiscally conservative' reflects in today's culture is just another permutation of callow libertarianism: I'll stay out of your business, but I don't want to pay taxes. Well, a tax-based system of collective responsibility for minimum human needs IS the deal for most Progressives.

It's a cheap out for people who, in their hearts know that Republican ideology is ugly in human terms and so don't want to be part of it, but they still don't want to pay taxes for the mythical 'welfare queen'.

I think they mean socially liberal to mean things like pro choice, pro gay rights, pro women's rights, etc. They aren't necessarily for funding of social programs though. They say becuse they may be conservatives with money just like Repubs but they dont want to be alligned with neo cons and the hates in their party.

Hell, I'm fiscally conservative. I do think we need a flat tax, with no deductions, that is fair. But I am also socially liberal, where as I don't need a politician to dictate morals to me, I could care less what 2 gay guys do in their own privacy, I don't need some bible thumper cramming god down my throat, I believe in a woman's right to choose, etc.

Thus increasing debt, which will be blamed on any prior Dem president, while calling their own spendig spree that benefits corporations 'fiscal conservatism'.

You know, the ones who want their taxes cut even though we are running a deficit? Talk about something for nothing.

I consider myself a social liberal/fiscal conservative. Fiscal conservative means different things to different people. To most normal people, fiscal conservatism means taking a no-nonsense approach to fiscal policy - pay as you go, don't go crazy on spending, etc. I happen to very much favor national health care, but only on a 'pay as you go' system. I adamently oppose huge budget deficits and deficit spending.

So tell me where the hell I want 'something for nothing'?

I think class is a bigger divder than race sometimes

Race is the deception of the rich, IMO. They keep us fighting about anything in order for them to keep more of the money. It works, unfortunately.

Pro gay rights, pro civil rights, pro womens rights, not a mindless Hollywood basher, supportive of minority rights, etc.

This is social liberalism.

Someone could support all of this and also support "fiscal" or "economic" conservatism. Fiscal conservative could mean balanced budgets, or economic conservatism could mean supporter of tax cuts and such.

A lot of my friends are social liberals but economic conservatives...

Thats my position too. I believe in trying to keep spending down but never at the expense of necessary social programs. I also don't believe tax cuts for the wealthy help the economy any.

Social Liberal/Fiscal Conservative is just a way of overcoming the stigma that Republicans like to put on Liberals as "Tax and Spend". Its also points out that Republicans are "Borrow and Spend"

...and I qualify it by saying something like: "Basically, you can go home and do heroin if it makes life good for you, but if causes you to lose your job, or to fuck up your relationships, it's you who has to pull yourself out of the gutter."

I always thought of myself as socially liberal and fiscally conservative. I meant that I thought all programs should be reviewed for effectiveness and audited to ensure that funds are used wisely. I also believe in balanced budgets unless there is a crisis. I support social programs and definitely want taxes to help those in need. For years, my liberal friends labelled me as a conservative for my views. It's refreshing to know that many fellow liberals share my views.

...just because you want some kind of accountablility for spent tax dollars! Sheesh! Some friends.

Here is a great line about the honorable Senator in an article after his recent death:

Simon was a social liberal who lots of conservatives liked and a fiscal conservative worshiped by many liberals. He sometimes quoted his model, the late, liberal Illinois Sen. Paul Douglas: "Being a liberal doesn't mean being a wastrel."