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Adenoid_Hynkel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 07:09 PM
Original message
rightwing college students target "nickel and dimed"
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jiacinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
1. I find this to be outrageous
I say this because I had to work long hours and through low wage jobs on campus to finish college. Currently, part time, I work in the "low wage" workforce. I read the book by Ehrereneich and she makes good points although I don't agree with her on the outrage over drug testing.

I see what working in the low wage workforce is like. I fully know that what she writes about is correct. I just feel bad for people who will be in the full time low wage workforce for their rest of their lives. I really do.

This is more about censorship and stifling viewpoints those on the right don't like.

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Terwilliger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
13. You mean...the people you want Dems to appeal to
:shrug:
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
23. drug testing is straight out of Orwells's "1984" in my view...n/t
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jiacinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. It's illegal to use certain drugs
And people know that. Now if you have issues with the drug laws that's another matter. But people should know that their urine will be tested and should prepare.
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #29
37. urine test only good for detecting pot...coke, speed and other drugs ...
are in urine undetectable after 2/3 days
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jiacinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. I don't see is as an intrusion
If you aren't doing illegal drugs then I don't see why people should be worried.

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Nazgul35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. ummmmmmmmm.......
the fourth amendment to the US Constitution....
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Terwilliger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. never fails to disappoint
jiacinto, I mean
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Nazgul35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #44
57. lol
:evilgrin:
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TheUnionDemocrat Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #44
62. This coming from a guy who was just...
...bashing the 2nd ammendment.

I guess people like you think you get to pick and chose ammendments?? Or, you don't understand the meaning of hypocrisy??
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Gringo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #40
46. It is a complete invasion of privacy
and a violation of search and seizure. People should not be tested for drugs without a reasonable suspicion of illegal drug use, or if their employment entails the use of equipment where being impaired could be a danger to others (airline pilot).

McDonald's has no business randomly drug-testing its clerks.

Crap pay and you have to put up with that humiliation.

I iwsh I could agree with you sometime on something, jiacinto.
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Fozzledick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #40
52. So then, if you're not a witch...
...you have no objection to being thoroughly tested for signs of witchcraft?
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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #40
56. Carlos, what business is it of my boss' WHAT I do in my off-hours?
I know this is a "pig singing lesson" (waste of time and exercise in frustration) but I had to say it.

My boss' concern as to what I do with/to my body ends at 5PM.
If I am not using "illegal substances" or drinking, or feeling up the receptionist in the utility closet when he's paying me, then it's none of his business if I'm stoned, drunk, and shagging the phone girl 75 ways to Sunday ON MY OWN TIME.

I know this is all lost on you, since you think that the "benevolent soul" who gives me such a generous sum in exchange for my life force, by virtue of that payment, has "bought" me body and soul 24/7, but that's how I feel.

You wanna dictate my conduct "after hours" you need to PAY me "after hours". Simple, no?

But I know you won't agree with that simple premise, because frankly, Carlos, that's your nature. Take the opposite POV and defend the honour of a whore JUST BECAUSE....
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-03 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #56
65. Well done, BiggJawn!
Workplace drug testing infuriates me. It's futile, it's pointless, it's unnecessary, it's expensive, it rules out perfectly qualified employees.

If I'm not conducting a train, flying an airplane, driving a truck... honestly, what difference does it make what I do in my off-hours?

As a nightclub manager, I can honestly report that there are three reasons that restaurants, bars and nightclubs haven't jumped on the drug testing bandwagon:

1. We wouldn't be able to find enough employees who would submit to a pre-employment drug screen, or many potential employees would fail;

2. It's prohibitively expensive and counterproductive;

3. Restaurants and nightclubs operate with real-world principles and real-world guidelines.

Funny how, if I were a secretary or manager in some office somewhere, I could probably keep a nice bottle of Beam in my bottom drawer for on-the-job nipping, and nobody would say a word, as alcohol, while a drug, is a state-sanctioned and approved drug.

In order to stay on topic, I felt that "Nickled and Dimed" was an excellent read, although I'd have to disagree that waitressing is "low paying;" in my personal experience, my waitress jobs in the past have paid between $20-$30 per hour, in hard-earned and well-deserved tips, of course.

Just my thoughts,
Jennifer :-)
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Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-03 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #65
76. I smoke pot and
I am a great employee. Just ask my boss. Jobs that require piss tests are screwing themselves out of good help like me, their loss. It sucks because the only people that are in a position where they cannot decide to never work for a pisstester are the ones who make the least and need the money the worst.

I make lots of $ for my company and have not missed a day of work in 3 years. A pisstester would never know what he missed. Pisstesters end up with people who have no other options, a lot of times those people don't make good employees.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-03 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #40
63. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
U4ikLefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-03 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #40
64. OMG, did I just read that post correctly?......yes it's still there.
I'm shocked & horrified by your comment.
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Sophree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-03 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #40
72. You don't see it as an intrusion??????
"If you aren't doing illegal drugs then I don't see why people should be worried."

This statement is something you'd hear from a Freeper when they're talking about Homeland Security and justifying invasion of privacy.

How can you not see that urine testing is an invasion of privacy?

It is no one's business what is going on in your body- Including if you are pregnant, have diabetes, or anything else that can be detected in urine.

I respect your centrist views, jiacinto, but that has to be one of the most appalling things I've heard from you.
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kayell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-03 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #40
74. Knock, knock
Hello Mr. Jiacinto,

We're with the Justice Dept. and we'd like to check all the files on your computer. I'm sure you won't be worried, since I'm sure that you haven't done anything that we would consider subversive or illegal, have you?
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #29
38. urine test only good for detecting pot...coke, speed and other drugs ...
are in urine undetectable after 2/3 days
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Sophree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-03 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #38
73. Yup
Because those drugs are TOXIC to your body. That's why your body eliminates them so quickly.

THC is stored in your fat cells and that is why it can show up in urine 3 weeks later.

Hmmmm. Could that mean that it's NON-TOXIC, your body LIKES it, and it's GOOD for you? But I guess some people know better than God and nature.
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jafap Donating Member (654 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #29
41. prepare, shmepare
I need no preparation, but I resent the fact that they start right out questioning my integrity. They are showing a bad attitude towards their employees. I also resent the waste of money and the waste of my time. At some point it would be nice if they accepted that I have passed my last seven drug tests. I had to take, and passed, three drug tests in 1999 alone.
If my employer is not willing to bet me $50 that I will fail, then they should not waste my time. I will bet all the money that I have that I will pass, but you know they will never make that bet because it is so much more fun to make me crawl through hoops.
Doug Marlette had the best cartoon on this. It showed Ed Meese whizzing on the Bill of Rights, and Ronnie was saying: "No Ed, you are supposed to pee in the cup."
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Nikia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #29
43. I don't know why companies do it
Job seekers that use illegal drugs will usually make preparations either by abstaining or using products to help them pass. I suppose that it will screen about addicts who cannot plan ahead. Really, though, if they have the right to test for drugs, what else might they want to test for in the future? What does the private use of drugs have to do with anything work related? What other private non work related information will they want to know? That's why they do credit checks too. Will they be getting your library records too?
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Gringo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #29
60. It's also illegal to cheat on your taxes
Do you want your boss having the power to audit your taxes? to strip search you randomly because it's illegal to carry balloons full of drugs in your ass?

I fail to understand the logic that lets companies have police state powers that even the gov't doesn't have, and shouldn't have.
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U4ikLefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-03 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #60
66. Well, there goes my balloon idea!
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DrGonzoLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #1
49. Drug testing
is wrong because it is assumption of guilt. The binding principle of the justice system in this country (at least, it's supposed to be) is innocent until proven guilty. Besides, if it does not affect workplace, who cares? If a person drinks on the weekends and at night but it does not affect anything at work, is it the employer's right to test him or her randomly and fire them?

I can understand testing if there is a legitimate concern that someone on drugs is causing a problem at the job, but otherwise, it should be unconstitutional.
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PinkTiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
2. I've also assigned the book for a course in the fall.
I've taught it before with this text; the course is feature writing, and it is used in my course to teach how a person immerses herself in a topic to write about it.
However, we also talk about Ehrenriech's bias and her work as socialogist when discussing the book.

Last year I used "Crossings," a book written by Walt Harrington, but found it less than useful to my class; they just couldn't get the book; it is written by a white man, married to a black woman, who decides to go out in the U.S. and find out what the "black experience" is. He interviews hundreds of blacks in different venues to get the experience down.

My class wasn't really ready for a sophisticated discourse.

If the Ehrenreich book is seen as controversial, I say fine. That is what College is supposed to be. Thought provoking.

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Voltaire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
3. Snicker. . .
There is no correct other side to tell is there? Dumbasses. Fucking conservatives make me barf.
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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
4. To Counter The Right
On this issue, see the follwoing web site:

www.conceptualguerilla.com
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punpirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
5. The key to this is toward the end...
... "She describes Wal-Mart in horrible terms," he said. "She really bashes Wal-Mart, and Wal-Mart does so many good things for communities."

That is utter bullshit. Anyone who knows how Wal-Mart operates know they do no lasting good for communities, and ultimately prove to be harmful. Low wages, and every nickel spent in a Wal-Mart goes to Bentonville, AR., rather than staying in the community.

This is about Wal-Mart....
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RandomKoolzip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
6. Remember: Elephants have always been afraid of mice.
Repubiconservatives will always try to stamp out the tiniest voices of dissent floating in the ether....Same old story.

"Nickel and Dimed" is a great book. I'm a cook earning nine bucks an hour (before insurance), and everyything she talks about is frighteningly true. The tone of the book was not "liberal", it was "intelligent." Everyone I've lent this book to in my restaurant has told me that they've cried while they read it. Food service industry people deserve a union, IMHO, so they can start earning a living wage at what they do.

Fuck these weasels.
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ret5hd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #6
26. United Food and Commercial Workers.
not being facetious, but don't wait for the union to come to you, go to it.

everyone deserves a union.
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QuestioningStudent Donating Member (160 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-03 06:35 AM
Response to Reply #6
70. Deal
Deal with it. I'm 20--I'm in college, working on a pre-law degree. I work full time at a warehouse, making a little less than nine dollars an hour. I work on the weekends doing whatever jobs I can find; just recently I spent the weekend in a septic field rebuilding a retaining wall. And you know what? I accept these jobs because I need to, because with my current set of job skills and hour restrictions, they're what I can get. If I had a killer body, and could make three times what I am now in 4 hours a night stripping, I probably would, but again, I'd have a different job skill--looking damn fine. Oh well. If you don't like your job, and can't stand what you're making, improve yourself. You can do it, whatever it takes. If it means working two or three jobs to save enough money to attend college or get a start up loan for your own business, then do it. If it means working jobs you don't enjoy, but will lead you to a more successful path, do it. If it means having a rough time now, for a better time later, if it's worth it to you, do it. Don't blame someone else if you've failed to take the time and effort to make yourself valuable enough to your employer that you're paid more. Having a family, taking care of it, etc., these are all decisions someone can make that may lead them to neglect their job or job skills, at least enough that they don't look as appealing to management as the next guy. And as wonderful as those choices can be, they're choices you make, that really do impact just what you're worth in the workplace. That's a practical truth, like it or not.

Incidentally, if someone wants to tell me that the idea that you can make yourself more successful, can cultivate better job skills, can make a difference in your life, even if it takes sacrifice, that you can make a difference through hard work, isn't an intelligent, honest appraisal of life--and in fact, a Liberal tenent--really needs to question their beliefs. If you have a problem with the way I say this, fine, I fully expect to be criticized for that--but before you criticize the message itself, think about it. Thank you.
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Sophree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-03 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #70
75. So a person with a family
Who has been a loyal WalMart employee doesn't deserve a living wage to support his/her family?

Try to walk in other people's shoes. I had to work through college, too. But remember, WE don't have kids to feed.

Other people don't always have the same advantages as we do. People who work hard should be paid well enough to support their families. Or are rich people the only ones who deserve to have families?
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
7. Despicable
If anybody would know anything about the indignities of minimum wage jobs it would be 18 year old kids, save for the spoiled brats bitching about the book, who are likely trust fund babies who have never had a real job before!

The other part I like is their sudden concern for "presenting both sides". First of all, no author is obligated to present both sides of every issue. If you want another perspective, there are many other books out there for you to read. Secondly, all one has to do is tune in to the corporate controlled media that saturates our culture to get the other side. It's not that hard, and I'm sure these kids have already been exposed to it a great deal, not to mention the right wing tripe they probably hear around the dinner table every night in a state like North Carolina.

Where were all these people when people expressed dissenting points of view during the war with Iraq?
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HawkerHurricane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Heh
"Where were all these people when people expressed dissenting points of view during the war with Iraq?"
Across the street, with a sign calling them 'morans', of course.

Reich wingers only like to 'present both sides' when thier side is made to look bad. Ann and Rush don't have to present 'both sides', but Donahue does, don't you see.
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 05:32 PM
Response to Original message
8. "and Wal-Mart does so many good things for communities"
What the heck are they smoking over there?! About all MalWart does for communities is bleed them dry. It undermines local tax bases. Pays substandard pay. Discriminates against women and minorities. Uses unfair trading practices. Lies about its patriotism. Oh yeah. Real good stuff for communitees.
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Nikia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
9. They must view college differently than I did
I never had any problems reading any assigned reading for a college course, even those with which I disagreed. College isn't about being fed knowledge. It is about being exposed to a variety of view points that often challenge one's own. A student should come away from the experience knowing why he or she agrees or disagrees with the material. There is sometimes an issue on essay grading with particular professors (Professors giving better grades for students who agree with their particuliar opinion.) but there should never be issues on assigned reading.
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StClone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 05:36 PM
Response to Original message
10. College Freepers: Oxymorans
College is for opening minds and truth is it's own reward.

"Nickled and Dimed" is the experience of the American working class as observed by an imbedded observer. Why is that bias, because it's counter to the flat world thinking of the Freeplets.
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Kat45 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 05:41 PM
Response to Original message
12. I guess these are affluent kids who never had to get a job
And whose parents are the folks who pay low wages to their employees. And who assume they will take their rightful place as highly paid members of the professional class as soon as they finish school. One of these days, one hopes, reality will smack them right upside the head, and perhaps they'll change their tune. Unless they end up like Dubya--reality hasn't infringed on his life and world view yet.
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HawkerHurricane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. They can't all be related to Presidents, can they?
W. got everything he's gotten by being related to a rich and politically powerful man.

Surely not ALL of these students have such connections?

Can they?
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jiacinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #12
32. I went to school with people like that
They used to be the most judgmental toward the poor.
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TheBigGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
14. well, you know about "flagship" state universitys...
UNC Chapel Hill is probably the flagship state u in NC...sort of like UT or UofK (my alma mater).

These colleges, though state univeristys, sort of attract the cream of the local crop...the small town elite, so to speak (whos daddy may very well run the local Wal Mart or own a bunch of fast food franchises, or small buisnesses & such). So you are going to find maybe a more buisness-oriented conservative crowd at these schools than, say, at a place like CUNY or NYU or Brandies or maybe even Berkley.

I know when I was going to UofK, it was my first actual face-to-face experience with kids whos' folks where in buiness or the professions..fairly well-off kids.

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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Most students are apolitical
Edited on Tue Jul-08-03 05:51 PM by bluestateguy
But most campuses have a contingent of conservative agitators. Here in Texas they are called the Young Conservatives of Texas.
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Dudley_DUright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
16. Oh Good
Edited on Tue Jul-08-03 05:51 PM by Dudley_DUright
We were considering inviting Barbara Ehrenreich to our campus next year to give a talk. I will push for her appearance all the harder after this news!
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RobinA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
18. One Has to Wonder
what these students would do if they had to read "The Jungle." Hell, or ANY of the majority of American classics that reflect the liberal bias of their authors. I wonder what the pro-witch trial counterpart to "The Crucible" would be?
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Dudley_DUright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Well that is an easy one to answer
Ann(thrax) Coulter's book "Treason".
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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #18
58. Make 'em read "The Jungle" and eat Braunschweiger at the same time...
I can do it, but I wonder how many of these ruff n' tuff Mama's boys who's daddys are SOOO important back home could?

Hell, they'd probably say "Cool! you can keep selling the same house over and over again, just gotta throw the bums out if they miss a payment? COOL!"...
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 06:14 PM
Response to Original message
20. Their solution to poverty and want...
The just want the lower classes to slink back to "the other side of town" and blend into the woodwork..

Oh yes....and they want them to suffer silently..
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
21. Who doesn't know about Sam Walton or Bill Gates?
What would reading a book by them tell anyone? Do they talk about using their money and power to manipulate Congressional votes, bribe people, skirt around labor laws, set up shop overseas?

This is just another example of the Republican pipedream to be a millionaire. Wanting to read about the one guy who made millions instead of reading about the millions he fucked over to get rich.
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Elidor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 06:29 PM
Response to Original message
22. Little minds afraid of the truth
They make me laugh. "NO! We can't handle the truth! We'd rather be ignorant!" Ta-Daa! You get your wish. How much are you paying for this "education" again?
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 06:53 PM
Response to Original message
24. notmyprez's comment about these "affluent kids" brought to mind a

story, which is a good story even if it doesn't relate directly to this, though it could say something about attitudes.

There's a tony prep school in our town, attended by many boarding students from out of state and other countries, plus some locals who can afford the tuition. Being the only tony prep school in town, this teenage elite has to play against public schools in sports. A couple of the local prep schools have a student body closely linked to local textile mills -- the kids' parents and aunts and uncles work there and a lot of the kids will work there as well (if they don't already -- a lot of high school students in this region work a full time second or third shift job in addition to going to school full time. Is that now true everywhere? I hope not.)

Someone I know used to teach at the tony prep school and told me this story. The prep school was playing basketball against one of the mill kids' schools, at the mill kids' school gym. The lintheads were kicking the preppies' butts in the game when the preppies began to chant, "Hey, ho! Ho, hey! You'll all work for us someday!"

Kids like those don't want to read "Nickel and Dimed" and have their preconceptions challenged.

Worst part of the story: the headmaster was at the game and declined to stop the chant.
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Cassandra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #24
45. I went to prep school through the early seventies...
"How the Other Half Lives" by Jacob Riis was required reading. I considered it valuable exposure to a level of poverty I hope never to experience myself.
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PROGRESSIVE1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
25. What are FReepers
doing in college of all places. A little above their intellegence level!

:silly:
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. you see if your daddy owns that company <--- there
you can go anywhere you want. Anyways I havent read this book I hear good things though and what would these kids rather read? Treason?(Coulter) The Secret Side of Liberalism?(book I saw today), Let Freedom Ring: winning the war against liberalism(Hannity) as opposed to Main Street(Sinclair Lewis), Black Boy(Richard Wright), The condition of the working class in England (Engels).
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MojoKrunch Donating Member (513 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
28. Lemme help maybe put this into perspective
TheBigGuy had is partly right.
UNC-CH is *the* flagship university in the UNC system.
Chapel Hill/Carrboro is also Liberal Central. With a capital L.
(Heck, the states only Socialist Representative comes from that district)
Last year some idiot conservative group protested the reading list because it had the Quran on it.
(mind you this is a *university*, you know... where you go to *expand* your horizons)

UNC-CH is a *huge* target in an otherwise bible-belt conservative state.
(along with pockets of old-school Liberals in the mountains near Asheville and some upstarts in Wilmington)

The fact is that someone *always* bitches about *something* UNC-CH does.
Like in many other college towns, they don't shit without it running downhill into *someones* manicured lawn.

And while UNC-CH isn't as bad as "New Jersy South" over in Durham(Duke University to you and me) UNC-CH is where the best and brightest and a substantial chunk of dads money goes.
NC State, here in Raleigh, is the bastard step-child of the Big Three, but easily the more down to earth.
That the young lady interviewed is *from* Raleigh leads me to suspect she is one of those annoying "conservative activist" folks who screech when the dominant paradigm doesn't get its way.

Just nonsense all the way around, IMO.

Kinda makes me wonder if she has a summer job.
lol

Mojo
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
30. i just started reading it ...she is waitressing in key west
a good read...i recomend it :7
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. who is? the rw girl
well my dad was a waiter and he basically made his living off of tips. aha now theres a group of people who I think need a union I bet they do its probably the service workers union. I really dont care that my first job is mininum wage honestly but if I were more poor I would benefit from it being increased.
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. barbara ehrenreich...the journist who wrote the book "Nickled and Dimed
is waitressing in key west and peeing in a cup ....
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. oh gotcha
Is she one of them endorsing Kucinich I think I saw the name somewhere. I wonder if Ms Ehrenreich has ever met my aunt and uncle they live down there.
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
33. "Up against the wall" really is the only cure for asses like this
(you know it's true)
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GOPBasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 08:54 PM
Response to Original message
34. Soon, they won't let them read anything about FDR
Are they going to go to the History department and demand that they never teach anything about Franklin Roosevelt?
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. that New Deal was so awful heh I am joking of course
but would these fools rather read? The Very Hungry Capilliar? Why I steal by Ken Lay, Homophobia and me by Michael Savage, and Why workers are lazy and what I do is a man's job by Rush Limbaugh.
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Gringo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
47. O M G
:puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke:

There's nothing that makes me :puke: more than "young Repuglicans" who haven't worked a day in their lives bitching about shit like this. And what other side? The vast majority of Americans live on less than 30k per year. How constructive would it be to study the struggles of the upper-middle and wealthy classes? Please.

and Wal-Mart does great things for communities? My ass. They've boarded up more small towns in this country than Dumbya has.

:puke::puke::puke::puke::puke:
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RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
48. actually, why not also read the Walton bio?
I read Nickel and Dimed and know about the truths there.

But I also have no problem with a prof assigning Walton's bio too, since the point of education is to teach you how to think...not in "what you should think," but how do you go about discerning if something has merit.

one way to learn how to think is to read what people have to say, then go to many other sources to check what they say for accuracy.

for instance...is Walton "self-made" or does he exploit people by forcing them to work overtime off the clock?

(and then they could look at Bush's push to make people like clerks ineligible for overtime and try to find out who lobbied for this one, for instance.)

I'm all for letting students learn that the bullshit of the "self-made" man is a lie, for everyone I've seen. Did they not have families who gave them emotional, financial if needed, and other support on their way?

Did Walton take advantage of people to become so rich via third world sweat shops and Americans who do not have the education (or for whatever reason) to get a job which would pay them enough to pay the bills?

This could lead to reading about the labor movement in America, and how people were treated before workers had protections, and what gilded age corporations did, and what Teddy Roosevelt did, and why the issue of corporations being more powerful than the govt is a danger to a democratic republic, for instance.

In addition, a class could investigate issues of policies formulated by Reagan, his union busting activity, which continues to this day. Were those policies good for workers, or only good for CEOs?)

(as in, Bush bailed out airlines but a provision was that they had to force concessions from employees...while at the same time, Bush made no provisions for the CEOs to, say, not use the bail out to enrich themselves and...

guess what???

that's exactly what the CEOs did, right? They paid themselves MORE money for their failures, while forcing employees to take less, or they laid off people...)

hey, I'm all for education. bring it on, baby. find out what's true and what's not and don't act like it's merely a "difference of opinion" if you want to highlight WalMart's jobs in a community without acknowleding what these jobs are like for people who cannot earn a living wage, who are not protected by a union, and see what's what.

they can then look at the issue of a living minimum wage, and look to see if a minimum wage is a drag or a boon for a broad section of Americans and businesses.

who knows, maybe our country would be better off if students learned how to challenged authority...



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alaine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. I agree. Bring it On.
for every text by a dead white guy we SHOULD be forced to read another more enlightened perspective...

say, for Moby Dick, maybe a book about the Greenpeace org.

in response to The Scarlet Letter, how about The Female Eunuch, by Germain Greer. I won't belabor this point, but it could make things pretty interesting on college campuses.

And as someone who worked briefly at a Sams, I can say that Sam Walton is a bloodsucking robber-baron leech.
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PinkTiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #48
59. Sam Walton's book won't help the cause.
Sam was very much into empowerment. He truly believed that he was empowering his workers to be "self made" people -- and in many ways, he was. Those who worked for him early on became millonaires from stock they received. What has happened, sadly, is that Sam became ill with lukemia about 10 years before he died, and was unable to be at the helm of his business, which was, under the watchful eyes of David Glass, becoming a mega business. The bigger Wal-Mart became, the less it cared about the people on the front lines of the business. Wal-Mart became much more interested in shaving losses in stock rooms and keeping tabs on its huge payroll, and in protecting its profits so it could offer goods at the least possible price to customers, who became more and more apt to purchase from Wal-Mart.

His book reads like a great inspirational piece. It is hard to believe that Wal-Mart has become what it is. Also, I don't think Sam would be interested in destroying the heart and soul of a town the way Wal-Mart now does. I don't believe he would be in favor of such actions, nor in favor of the bad treatment the workers in the stores receive.

Sam Walton was a great man. He didn't live long enough to see his dream through; the people who now run the company are not doing it the way he would have. And people who have been with the company for a long time know this.

His oldest son, Rob, is the so-called chairman of the board, but he really doesn't run the company. Jim Walton, the youngest son, runs the banking end (Arvest) and has his hands in the publishing end (Community Publishers, Inc. and The Arkansas Democrat Gazette), but doesn't strike me as being a bad guy.

I don't think Sam's book is a fitting companion to Ehrenreich's book. I would suggest, instead, that people look at the core purpose of her study --- that the US service industries subsist on an underground network of illtreated, underpaid and abused workers, who have no champions. Most of these are women.



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HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 10:25 PM
Response to Original message
50. Is there a book called
"Everything's fine; a complete patriotic morons guide to living with being lied to" for them to read?

That'd be more their speed I think
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Ein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 10:56 PM
Response to Original message
53. "It's intellectually dishonest to present only one side,"
ITS NOT DISHONEST YOU IGNORANT FREEP. It tells you what the goddamned subject matter is in the title, for crissakes. It's not like theres gonna be a second half about laissez faira fat capalist pig who profits from the work the lower-class woman does. Ugh.
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DrGonzoLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. I saw that shit too
What, Limbaugh and Coulter are fair and balanced? These people are the biggest fucking hypocrites on the planet.
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SOteric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
54. Ah.
It's "intellectual dishonesty" to broaden the understanding of college students by presenting factual material that advances progressive economic ideas.

It's not "intellectual dishonesty" to overtake all the airwaves in a country and cram your message down the throats of the populace 24/7 while tossing out fairness like yesterday's coffee grounds.

Gotchya.
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Iverson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
61. Q: Guess where it's on the syllabus?
A: Oakland University's first-year writing courses. It's not absolutely required, but a "recommended" text that a lot of instructors are choosing.

Some very sheltered students will soon be exposed to some ideas with which they haven't already been programmed.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-03 02:06 AM
Response to Original message
67. I fail to see the problem here
Nickeled and Dimed is one sided, and that if just fine. But I do think that a college should represent both sides in its required reading. My college had two required courses for Freshman called Freshman Preceptorial. In those classes were a variety of readings that were meant to present a variety of view points. Thus we read soclal darwinism and Karl Marx. Sorry but the right wing kids are right here. Her book should be read with another book.
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Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-03 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #67
77. I think Ayn Rand would do it.
If they have ever read one of her books they already have a perspective from someone who had everything given to them and pisses on those who were not so lucky.

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cap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-03 06:01 AM
Response to Original message
68. it's ironic that a fair number of these "right wing" kids
will end up "nickeled and dimed" themselves. Only they will have college loans to deal with. Some of them can go back home and live with the parents; some of them have to make it on their own.
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Best_man23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-03 06:22 AM
Response to Original message
69. Their Argument is BS
During one's college education, you usually see books from both sides. This group of repugs are going after this book because it indirectly shines the light the results of the misdeeds of the current administration.

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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-03 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #69
71. Hmm
It's a symptom of wage slavery,which is basically indentured servitude dressed up with an illusion of freedom..There is a way out become superwealthy somehow(hard to do with rent,car payments,taxes ect.ect.ect. on minimum wage) and buy your "freedom" or you can work your youth away and "retire"someday..Either way your life is spent serving boss making money off you for peanuts as they buy freedom for themselves from the system you struggle against too and cannot escape so easily.We all dream of our ship coming in,because we want to have a life outside of working too..When a company is allowed by the people it profits off of to OWN people, even on the off hours for no good reason other than company "policy" it's because people feel more powerless,under pressure and alone.
Misery, deprivation and threats for the working class and poor is WONDERFUL for business.
Threats always make workers who aren't ready to quit working forever and drop out of the persuit of the"American Dream"..work harder for less.Threats and greed also help companies(landlords,creditors,wal mart,ect,ect,) steal you from you,take your time and autonomy away.

When companies who have a ceo that sets "policy" can get away with inspecting worker's urine for what they may do off hours,it's a grab of autonomy and personal time. It's the company basically stealing more of you. The greed of companies for control over other's lives has started to show what this wage system really is..a new form of slavery spun to look "willing""rewarding" and "free".It relies on the ol' puritan work ethic..and the "American dream"..It isn't about freedom or empowerment ,it never was. It's the same old servitude to the wealthiest eklites,The same old top down hierarchy of those who do not respect those who give them power.A new false front to old systemic evil idea :feudalism,indentured servitude.
The lash of a whip is no longer used it's the lash of threat,cocercion,stealing,and psychological torment.


For the top 1% of the wealthy to excercise the power they do over our very lives,(for peanuts) WE as citizens Learn a lie,how to be powerless and how to compeate and to betray ourselves and our integrity for those peanuts.

There is a way out, solidarity with one another in saying NO to those greedy wealthy disconnected people who cannot stop thier sick ambitions until they OWN or destroy all things.
Power through domination and exploitation is a sickness.
Powerlessness is a belief one has when they are dominated.
Even when they won't admit to themselves they are.
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Cascadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-03 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
78. Hmmmmm....
Edited on Sat Jul-12-03 01:15 PM by Cascadian
Unbelievable!
John
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