What does it mean to be a man?

As a 19 year old male liberal with a month left in Wyoming it seems to me being a man these days means being violent, dirty and humping anything that is female. When given the word "man" the image that pops into someone's head would be John Wayne or Gdub, not Ghandi or MLK Jr.
It seems America has been sold on the idea that manhood is not about being caring, but being the strongest. The world where all men are philosophers has been replaced with a world where all men are prize fighters.
It just seems that violence has become so socially acceptable that ads for Fireworks refer to the conflict in Iraq (something to the effect of "We blew up those rag heads real good, now let's blow stuff up to celebrate"). I don't know, looking around at what people want men to be it doesn't make much sense.
I'm going off to work, when I get back I want to see tons of answers to the following questions.
1. What does it mean to be a man?
2. What does it mean to be masculine?
3. Why has violence/conflict become an acceptable trait to cultiviate as a male?
4. Why has constant sex replaced the value of loving relationships?
5. Movies today sell to the lowest common male denominator, sex and violence, why?
Okay, that's enough for now, I'm excited in seeing what all of you come up with.

Shalom all,
Chris

you get more money for doing the same job

... worry about being a "good man" or "manly", and don't worry enough about being a good person.

But you might want to try e-mailing them to Ann Coulter.

:evilgrin:

Haven't seen you in awhile

:hi:

But I post in spurts...a few here and there....two months go by ... a few more here and there ... etc.

In answer to your questions: All these answers are from my personal male perspective, but many could easily be applied to either gender. Since I am only once gender though, I apply them to we males.

1. What does it mean to be a man?

Accept responsibility for your faults as well as your succcesses. To maintain a stoic disposition in times of strife and confusion. To show leadership by example. To stand your ground when necessary.

2. What does it mean to be masculine?

To me masculine is a body type. I don't think of it as a psychological position. Even effemenate males can be masculine in appearance. I think of masculine to mean physically and mentally strong, broad shouldered and broad minded, both muscular and tender.

3. Why has violence/conflict become an acceptable trait to cultiviate as a male?

It's a holdover from when we had to defend the position as top banana in the group. it's a mating thing I think. This isn't to suggest some of us (me) have risen above it, because when it comes right down to brass tacks I think most men will tap into that prehistoric voilent defense mechanism to defend themselves or the territory they perceive as theirs. Me included.

4. Why has constant sex replaced the value of loving relationships?

Hasn't. The media makes you think it has, but it hasn't in my estimation. If that were the case we'd see a vaaaaaaast dropoff of Marriage rates. I realize that divorce is in high percentage too, but that is not always tracable to an insaitable desire for sex. I think it has much more to do with stress be it financial or environmental.

5. Movies today sell to the lowest common male denominator, sex and violence, why?

It's easy and plays into our relatively low educational level. I think some of it is also a catharsis. I LOVE horror movies, the more voilent and gore soaked the better, but I'm a nice person. When I watch horror films it taps into those buried foundational emotions I have and lets them relish the mayhem. Plus, working out the old fear triggers is good honing for the instincts. Do I want to see actual people hurt? Never.

Hope this helps.

4. Why has constant sex replaced the value of loving relationships?

Answer? Playboy, television, movies, Maxxiim, Hollywood, porn, and especially now "reality television".

It hasn't.

I'm shocked and awed by the attitudes of people one generation behind me (I'm 30) You know the number one song right now is called P.I.M.P about well pimping. The term "bitch" and "ho" rolls off of people's tongues, men and women, in a way I've never heard it before.

linguistics evolve. In the 40's it was Dames and Broads...

I don't see this as any indication that men are on a breeding frenzy.

Seems to make a lot of sense.

Taking good care of that which has been entrusted to you. Putting others ahead of yourself. Solving problems. Loyalty. That's what is really meant by 'defending your family,' not keeping a loaded pistol on the nightstand.

But how far can you spit? eh?

LoL couldn't resist.

Boston

"To Be a Man"


What does it take to be a man?
What does it take to see
It's all heart and soul
A gentle hand?
So easy to want and so hard to give
How can you be a man
'Till you see beyond the life you live?
Oh, what does it take to be a man?

We can be blind, but a man tries to see
It takes tenderness
For a man to be what he can be
And what does it mean
If you're weak or strong?
A gentle feelin'
can make it right or make it wrong
What does it take to be a man?

The will to give and not receive
The strength to say what you believe
The heart to feel what others feel inside
To see what they can see

A man is somethin' that's real
It's not what you are
It's what you can feel
It can't be too late
To look through the hate and see
I know that's what a man can be


(Scholz)

As with all questions.... On man, I just sent a wave of hot coffee through my nose.

A pretty fair answer.

That song was the first thing that popped into my head when I saw the thread title.

From the last Boston album that was worth a shit.

That's good stuff. Need to hijack a radio station and play this.

Does that mean that we can let Styx define once and for all what a "Lady" is?

Well Lady is a Luck tonight... right?

with the ladies of DU is a lucky, lucky night.

;-)

Todd Rundgren
"Real Man"

When I was a child
I thought as a child
I spoke as a child
I didn't know better
But now I'm a man
I look like a man
I'm old as a man
And I should know better
Got my head in the sky
And my mind knows what it wants
But my body just drags me down
And my world is something you can't see
But it's still very real to me
You can find it in the hole where I keep my soul
There it is - way down inside me
There's a real man
Forget about my body and be a real man

I see with my heart
I hear with my heart
I feel with my heart
Sometimes it works better
And some so-called friends put me down
And they pity me for trying
Bad emotions push me around
But the vision shines on and on
It will shine when we all are gone
And I'd like to add a little sparkle while I'm here
Light it up - way down inside me
There's a real man
Forget about bad feelings and be a real man

Some men's world is only hate and money
Afraid of everything and they laugh at nothing
And they only live to criticize
You can laugh at me now
But the time comes to everybody
When you must decide
When that day finally comes along
You might wish you'd been a little more strong
Then you'll wake up in the morning cryin'
"Oh my God"
There it is - way down inside me
It's a real man
You got to grow up sometime
Be a real man
Suffer them slings and arrows
Be a real man
Now be a real man
Don't sell yourself for nothing
Be a real man
Don't take no crap from no one
Be a real man
Get your trip together
Be a real man

i'll tell you this much from personal experience:

it's not what's between your legs, it's what's in your heart.

on "male issues" run by a local agency. It was recommended attendance for those with anger management problems.

As soon as some of the attendees began hearing that "macho" wasn't cutting it anymore they began dropping out. When I came out to the group, you coulda heard a pin drop.

1. What does it mean to be a man?

One must not be a woman.

2. What does it mean to be masculine?

One must not be feminine.

3. Why has violence/conflict become an acceptable trait to cultiviate as a male?

Testosterone.

4. Why has constant sex replaced the value of loving relationships?

When was loving relationships en vogue again?

5. Movies today sell to the lowest common male denominator, sex and violence, why?

Because men pay good money for it. Nothing wrong with sex, and as long as the violence is campy, I have no problem with it.

Ummm... Good question, I guess I've always looked for loving relationships, but so many of the people around me find the relationship thing to be the side effect of having sex with women. Strange that.

a little more angst than in the Boston song.

"Real Men"

Take your mind back - i don't know when
Sometime when it always seemed
To be just us and them
Girls that wore pink
And boys that wore blue
Boys that always grew up better men
Than me and you

What's a man now - what's a man mean
Is he rough or is he rugged
Is he cultural and clean
Now it's all change - it's got to change more
'cause we think it's getting better
But nobody's really sure

And so it goes - go round again
But now and then we wonder who the real men are

See the nice boys - dancing in pairs
Golden earring golden tan
Blow-wave in the hair
Sure they're all straight - straight as a line
All the gays are macho
Can't you see their leather shine

You don't want to sound dumb - don't want to offend
So don't call me a faggot
Not unless you are a friend
Then if you're tall and handsome and strong
You can wear the uniform and i could play along

And so it goes - go round again
But now and then we wonder who the real men are

Time to get scared - time to change plan
Don't know how to treat a lady
Don't know how to be a man
Time to admit - what you call defeat
'cause there's women running past you now
And you just drag your feet

Man makes a gun - man goes to war
Man can kill and man can drink
And man can take a whore
Kill all the blacks - kill all the reds
And if there's war between the sexes
Then there'll be no people left

And so it goes - go round again
But now and then we wonder who the real men are

There are several reasons I ask these questions.
1. Ahhnuld and the Lesser Bush. they seem to be considered masculine because they hurt people.
2. Open Range. It was violent for very little reason, but as I've mentioned people were whooping and laughing at the blood and death.
3. The "We blew up those rag heads real good" commercial on the Radio. This is acceptable? Why?
4. My friend. So I get back from Eugene and one of my friends has found being masculine to mean handling lots of fire arms and being kind of a slobby bachlor. Further he's been getting his kicks beating people up.
5. My other friend. He's always been trying to figure out how to be masculine, breaking girls hearts, assulting cop cars, drinking self into stupors.
All in all it is odd stuff, I'm thinking this stuff isn't masculine, and they aren't men. Being a man has something to do with responsiblity and non-violence. It is better to be beat and take it than to beat others, that kind of thing.

As a 19 year old male liberal with a month left in Wyoming it seems to me being a man these days means being violent,

More violent in some ways maybe. It used to be that two guys that had problems with eachother could just get into a fist fight and settle it. I think this is male nature and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. You eventually would out grow this and turn into the old guy that didn't need to prove anything.

Now if I kick some loud mouths ass I have to worry that his buddies are going to jump me. When society tried to squash male pride they only eliminated his idea of fair fight. Now men fight no more or less but kids today have no sense of honor. They are a bunch of moronic killers that have a fluid definition of 'respect' which they kill eachother over.

Gone are the days when a man would see a injustice and take a stand. You see assholes screaming at women and at others and every male in the room tries to ignore it.

1. What does it mean to be a man?

A man takes care of his business. He sacrifices for those things he cares about. He is responsible and when he gives his word you can take it to the bank.

The world is full of idiots now a days that think a man is measured by how many women he beds and how cool he is.

2. What does it mean to be masculine?

What it always has. You have to be tough, not afraid to get dirty, and willing to fight for what you believe in.

This does not however mean you can't sit down and discuss you emotions or feelings.

. Why has violence/conflict become an acceptable trait to cultiviate as a male?

Males are violent. That is just nature. Little boys will beat eachother up no matter what you show them or tell them growing up. Just watch them on the playground.

This violence has been increased by the transition in the media from hero's that fought for a cause to hero's that kill just about everyone and look cool doing it. The line between right and wrong has been blurred and young males are growing up in a society where joining a gang and shooting someone means you're tough.

4. Why has constant sex replaced the value of loving relationships?

Greedy asshats trying to justify their behavior made it cool. Listen to rap music for a day if you don't understand what I'm saying. Responsibility was replaced as the measure of a man with penis size and use.

5. Movies today sell to the lowest common male denominator, sex and violence, why?

It represent the decline in our society's values. We no longer look up to the guy that sacrifices his wants for his families needs. We like guys that simply screw over everyone else for what they want.



I didn't have much time to make myself perfectly clear so if you object don't go crazy flaming me just ask.

Very well said.

Also, is "asshat" a registered term. I just think it's the funniest euphamism ever. Do I need to pay you if I use it?

I certainly did not create 'asshat' so use it all you wish. I also find it funny.

BTW - glad I didn't make you wince. :D

when George Tenet appeared to have fallen on his sword for Bush, it was described as "manful."

A lot of whistleblowers recently have been women. A lot of people knew what Sherron Watkins at Enron knew, but most of those people were men so they kept quiet. "Guy code" and all that.

Taking the fall for the Alpha dog is "manful." Interesting, being a lackey is manly... hmmm. I'm off to work again, I'll think about this.

1. What does it mean to be a man?

Being a man means owning up to your responsibilities and supporting your family.

2. What does it mean to be masculine?
"Masculine," IMHO, is partially mindset, partially image. I enjoy working on cars, sports, and working out. I also enjoy reading poetry, baking, and gardening.

3. Why has violence/conflict become an acceptable trait to cultiviate as a male?
Thousands of years ago, its part of the male-protector instinct.

4. Why has constant sex replaced the value of loving relationships?
Sex has always been there, its just more in the forefront. Most people spend more time planning their wedding (one day) than their marriage (years or a lifetime, if things work out). IMO, a good sex life is as important in a relationship as communication and good financial management.

5. Movies today sell to the lowest common male denominator, sex and violence, why?
Because it brings in money, plain and simple, and serves toward our most basic instincts (does not require much thought to understand).

..what's wrong with constant sex?

"As a 19 year old male liberal with a month left in Wyoming it seems to me being a man these days means being violent, dirty and humping anything that is female."

- That sounds like an image from Hollywood Westerns as far back as the '30's if not before...not a new image.

"It seems America has been sold on the idea that manhood is not about being caring, but being the strongest. The world where all men are philosophers has been replaced with a world where all men are prize fighters."

- Again, I'm not sure how new this is either...the positive side is I think there is a greater variety of models now...not one monolithic one.

"It just seems that violence has become so socially acceptable that ads for Fireworks refer to the conflict in Iraq (something to the effect of "We blew up those rag heads real good, now let's blow stuff up to celebrate"). "

- Watch WWII era cartoons - Bugs Bunny and such...there have been thugs in American culture for a long time. War brings them out in the open.

1. What does it mean to be a man?

In my estimation, it means being in touch with yourself and standing up for what you believe in. I DO NOT believe stoicism has anything to do with it - emotion is quite alright, and I think we need to show more of it. If we did, we would all understand each other better. One of the most incredible displays of what I call 'manhood' can be seen in "Bowling for Columbine" which just came out on DVD - those teenage guys going to the KMart headquarters with bullets in their bodies to protest - Wow, those ARE young men!

2. What does it mean to be masculine?

Something that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with being a man, in my opinion. Masculinity and feminity are social constructs, men and women are genetically created. But, to answer your question, I think it's always in flux and with a wide number of definitions - the gay community seems to identify it with tone of voice and style of physical movement - others identify it with how "tough" you are. I tend to identify it with again how touch with yourself and your body you are.

3. Why has violence/conflict become an acceptable trait to cultiviate as a male?

Like was mentioned before...I'm not sure when it hasn't been. I also think there is a hormonally driven element as well...so I think it's fundamentally important for us to teach our boys and each other as men, socially pro-active ways to channel the hormonal energy. Sports, politics, working on social issues, building things, etc...

4. Why has constant sex replaced the value of loving relationships?

I don't think it has. I still don't think a tremendous number of men are really honest with themselves about what is going on with their sex drives. In addition to garden variety extramarital affairs, there is an epidemic of men who have sex with other men outside their marriage and keep that a secret as well as not dealing with their own sexual identification - straight, bi, gay, whatever - because of social pressure to remain straight arrow "good men." See the movie "Far From Heaven" for a particularly crushing depiction of this...not a lot has changed, unfortuately. I know some of this territory intimately well as a bi man who has come out.

5. Movies today sell to the lowest common male denominator, sex and violence, why?

Movies trying to make money often do...but there are excellent examples of films in recent years that explore issues connected with what it means to be male - it's an underlying theme, I believe, of "Bowling For Columbine." "Far From Heaven," which I just mentioned, is interesting on this topic. The male roles are incredible, as is the entire movie in "Whale Rider." I could list a lot here, but the motion picture industry is not monolithic.