I've never had a flu shot in my life...

And never intend to get one. Ask me anything.

Just wondering.

and a pretty bad case about 10 years ago. I'd rather take my chances and let my body fight it, than inject myself with something that might make me sick. Besides, I have very little trust in pharmaceutical companies, and the way they prepare the vaccines. AND... there is very little chance that the flu vaccine you actually get will work against whatever type of flu epidemic may happen.

I work on a college campus, and have in various positions for years. It is a prime place to get ill. The last time I had the flu, I had the worst nightmares of my life, my skin was so sensitive that brushing against anything hurt like hell. I could hardly move. I hurt. The flu shot, taken with an asperin, has given me little more than an hour or two of lethargy. I will take 2 hours of lethargy over one week of sheer misery any day, any time.

nt

but we're skipping it this year. Other folks need it worse than we do.

I don't like the idea of getting shot up with some weird bactrim....

Is this why you do not intend to have one either? Or am I the only weird one?

And I think the human body is designed quite well to protecting itself. Same reason that I don't take antibiotics.

I guess I'm not the only weirdo out there afterall!

good health all my life. I like to think that part of that is that I don't buy into vaccinating myself against every possible disease or virus. :hi:

I wish more doctors and health officials thought that way!

We'll see what your opinion is when you get something really serious and potentially life-threatening

of those flu shots away from a high-risk person. Thanks! :eyes:

UNLESS...I am in in a "high risk' group. I don't see myself in a high risk group anytime here in the near future, I am VERY healthy.

I try to let my immune system sort out most things, but I do take anti malarial medication. Since I'm now far too big for my mother to carry me and soak me in a bathtub to bring down the fever I don't think I should take too many chances.

:scared:

As a matter of fact, I would be more afraid to be shot up with some weird bactrim that they just came out with, than to have my natural resistance shattered by over treatment of antibiotics or flu shots.

I avoid geting sick by consistantly washing my hands, eating healthy, and excersizing. I haven't been sick in years and I am an RN at a medical facility! Go figure!

Tonic of the gods, I say.

One of these days....some weird strain is gonna come outta nowhere and no antibiotic or flu shot is gonna help. These strains are getting bigger and more resistant to drugs. Not getting a flu shot now will help you, unless you are listed as one of the people who are at high risk. And you will also be helping the folks who really need it. If you are healthy, eat well, excersize regularly there is no reason to get one.... just wash your hands!

There are arguments that you may be benefiting from herd immunity and from low-level exposure to pathogens in your work environment that primes your immune system.

My husband has refused flu shot sand antibiotics as well... and he has not gotten the "dreaded" flu either! hmmmm?

Being in the medical profession, I know FIRST HAND how antibiotics are over prescribed. It's a known fact. These strains are getting bigger and nastier, the more we prescribe the more resistant the drug.

but of course a vaccine is not an antibiotic, it's an immune system primer.

So, one could argue that a vaccine is an anti-anti-biotic and reduces the need for them (not applicable to viral diseases, of course) and so you should be using vaccines whenever possible.

And, depending on what you do in the medical profession, you may have a higher obligation to do so because you have a greater potential for passing on a pathogen to potentially physically and immunologically-compromised individuals.

and get a flu shot. I will not shoot myself with a "dead" virus. I don't trust it. I have seen many things happen to post-flu shot victims. It can get nasty.

My obligation in the medical community is to not pass pathogens if I become contagious. Being an RN, I can certainly distinguish if I am contagious or not. I appreciate your concern however.

I am perfectly healthy and in no need of a flu shot, nor antibiotics. I have been "flu-free" for approx. 18 years. I have not had any contagious pathogens in many, many years either. It seems that the reason why we have so many that fall ill to the flu and other contagious bacterium, are people who are not responsible enough to follow basic hygiene or stay home in a sick room when contagious. I am not counting the "high-riskers" either.....

for ALL pathogens since, for some, you can be contagious before you are symptomatic and, depending on your own health, might never become symptomatic. Ever heard of carriers ?

So, all you can really say is that you have not had any symptomatic infections. Good for you.

And, with those attitudes and levels of insight, I hope that I will never have need of your services as an RN. No offense, and I have no reason to believe you are not very competent, but your opinions on this matter are unscientific and somewhat self-centered.

To your continued good health - for the sake of yourself and your future patients.

And I am sorry that I have obviously touched a nerve with you. I am in no way non-compassionate when it comes to caring for my patients. I am also very well versed on this matter. Are you in the medical profession as well? You seem to know alot about it, just curious. Can you agree that these types of drugs are over prescribed?

If it makes any difference, I am an RN at a Lasik eye surgical center. I think that I would most likely have a different view on this matter if I was working in close proximity with people who are high risk. I don't.

I refuse to give into the "hype" of flu shots, I don't think that's self-centered at all, one day your going to thank me and others for not being pulled into the nature of this. I will not sacrifice my own well being for something that is potentially dangerous, and is not known to work.... there are many who do get injected and still fall ill.

I stay healthy for me, my family and my patients, now please, tell me who this is self-centered?

or non-caring. But responsibility also includes practices, not just feelings.

I am not in a medical profession but read a fair amount on scientific and medical matters.

There's no doubt that antibiotics are over prescribed and wrongly prescibed (for viral infections, for one). Not to mention their presence in the food supply to produce 'more efficent' animals in the name of profit.

And, as I said, vaccines aer not drugs in the sense that antibiotics are. They are specifically to prevent disease (or the progression) and emhance the value of the immune system's role. Is that a bad thing ?

While your work makes you less involved with ill people both on the transmitting and receiving end of pathogens, it does expose you to large numbers of strangers and in close proximity to faces and the eye membranes at times, potentially. Yes, I know there are gloves and procedures, etc. but it is not done in a hermetic environment.

Flu shots are not the main issue in the general issue of whether to take vaccines since the disease is more bothersome than serious for most of the population. But there is the issue of herd immunity that protects others even if it is of less importance to a given individual.

Your statement about 'not known to work' is rather silly. Of course it fails with some individuals, as foes every drug or treatment, it is not a panacea. Vaccines depend on the patients own immune system to provide protection, it merely primes it to recognize the pathogen before exposure to the disease agent in large amounts so it can more readily mount an immune response and fight it off. If the immune system is weak or if the persons immune system just cannot respond to the vaccine (since everyone is slightly different from others) it will not necessarily work for everyone. And, of course, in some they might be exposed to the pathogen before getting the shot, rendering it irrelevant.

I remain dismayed at your deficiency of scientific understanding of the issues of immunity and vaccines, for a medical professional.

You indeed may be a quite healthy person, so far; good for you. That is not the same as following some procedures and recommendations for health care workers that are considered in the best interests of their patients.

Give me a break!

I refuse to get a FLU-SHOT not a POLIO vaccination! Good GRIEF!

I know EXACTLY how the flu shot works...It's a dead VIRUS! Personally, I don't trust it! Why the dismayed reaction? Do you know what you are talking about? Does it make any difference that I haven't had the flu in eighteen years? Does it make any difference that I work in a clean room? Give me a break!

Tell you what, I will be more than happy to give you my flushot, seems you think you may need it.

you also brought in the subject of antibiotics.

You havent had flu symtoms that you recognized in 18 years. That is not the same as harboring the virus, if transitorily. You indeed may not have done that either but all you know is whether you've had an active, symptomatic infection.

'Personally' not trusting it is not the same as scientifically not trusting it. What is it you don't trust, feelings aside ?

Yes, I THINK I know what I'm talking about.

Does it make a difference that you work in a clean room ? DO the filters and other features involved completely prevent the contamination by viruses ? IS any skin, mucous membrane, etc. at all exposed in such a way that contamination of whatever it is you are working on is possible. I'm not aware of 100% effective clean rooms and not familar with respect to viruses. I do think that there are additonal requirements for ultra clean environments called laminar flow where there are disease transmission protections required. I dont know if that's characteristic of clean rooms in general or the kind you work in.

What does a 'break' have to do with a scientific examination of the subject ?

Let me get this straight....

You think that I if I don't get this flu-shot that the ol' gov is touting that, I am negligent? Is this what you are trying to say?

Okay... if this is the case.... let's say I go and get the damn thing and it helps me with nothing, I still get sick and pass it on? Where is the logic here? I don't get it. Perhaps I get sick with something ENTIRELY different, hows not getting that flu shot helping anybody? I don't trust it for me, I have seen the effects of flu shots and what it can do. I PERSONALLY refuse to get one, my surgeon REFUSES to get one. Must I go into this further?

Clean rooms: Our surgical suite is designed to filter out most pathogens, ofcourse it can't filter everything possible, but I am dressed head to toe, with a large polycarbonate mask that sheilds my mouth and eyes, along with sterile gloves and sterile head and foot gear. The clean room is probably the most sterile enviroment that anyone can be in. I never said the nothing could ever be remotely passsed or caught in there, but when you have a perfectly healthy surgeon, patient and techs, there's not much of a fear there. If our patient is symptomatic we reschedule in order to keep infections to a minimum.

This is getting silly.....I am not getting a flu shot... I don't think my patients are going to die! Stop giving in to the craze! Are you healthy? Do you plan on getting one? If so...why?

If you take that vaccine and you still get the flu that is not an argument against not taking a precaution where available. It reflects the fact that precautions are not always 100% effective. Should a surgen not wash his/her hands because post-surgical infections are still possible ? I'm sorry, I fail to see the validity of that particular argument.

And the issue of getting sick with something else is not only irrelevant it just damn silly. You should (and I think do) know better.

That your surgen refuses to get one is not necessarily reflective of the wisdom in doing so. There are doctors who continue to smoke and those who abuse drugs. Is that fact and argument that one should not avoid both ? Doctors harbor prejudices and lapses in judgment just like anyone else.

I dont think ither you or your patients are likely to die. That hardly reflects a rational examination of the issue. Appropriate inncoulation practices and issues of herd immunity - sometimes versus personal risk - are not a craze.

I am heathy and do not plan to get one because I am not in an at-risk group and the expected deficiency in supplies. I am also not in a profession or situation where I pose a risk at large to many others. If those were not the case, there is a liklihood I would get one.

Do you go shopping? Do you go to the grocery store and fondle the fruit for ripeness? Do you ride public transportation? Do you open doors for people? If you do... you are also putting the public at risk.... in your mind. Go get your shot!

The surgical environment is one of the most sterile environments you can be in. I have absolutely NO SHAME with the fact that I am not going to get the flu shot. I am however going to eat healthy, practice good hygiene and excersize.

Thank you for your thoughts, however silly I think they have become. I am done with you.

Have a nice evening.

will, of course, protect you against catching an airborne virus like influenza. They may keep you from acquiring a symptomatic infection. They will not prevent you from potentially harboring it and being infectious for a period of time lacking an expeditious immune response.

And, while my thoughts are not silly, and most of yours are not, they are largely unscientific and self-centered. Which, of course, is your privilege.

Here's a little bit of logic for you...if you are IN a medical office then by virtue of the patients that visit you are exposing yourself to every disease treated in that office which is communicable be it airborne or due to contact.

You argue as though she has a duty to inject herself with disease processes in order to protect others...what about the flus NOT covered by the vaccine? Every year there are several flus for which the vaccine is not effective.

The only people who NEED a flu vaccine are those most vulnerable....and the vaccines themselves can be dangerous. One of the first malpractice cases I worked on was an infant who was negligently administered a vaccine...she was left quadriplegic after brain surgery for encephalitis following a bad serum.

So, all your statement suggests is that medical offices may not be the optimum settings for the mass administration of vaccines. And they usually are not use for mass inoculations.

And, of course, vaccines using dead pathogens are not 'disease processes'. They are chemical primers for the immune system. Live virus vaccines do carry some risk, however minimal, and is why the Sabin polio vaccine (the oral one) always carried a small risk of infection for both the recipient and for third parties exposed to them during a period after the inoculation.

SO, your assertion is that one should not inoculate against SOME diseases (some influenzas) because it does not protect against ALL of them ? I'm sorry, but the logic and value in that escapes me. By that thinking we would never inoculate against any disease because you could still get some other disease. Sheesh !

It is not possible to know, a priori (there's some legalism for you) who - each and every - will need a vaccine or, conversely, who will not benefit from one. It's statistical. And so is the risk involved with taking one for a very small segment of the population. That is why there are insurance programs associated with the vaccines and vaccination programs. There is no 100% safe medical practice or procedure. And you don't support the argument against vaccines by citing a case of a NEGLIGENTLY administered one, any more that a case of a negligent surgery is an argument against surgery in general.

If you're in the legal profession, I find myself somewhat dismayed or disappointed at your logic as applied in this situation.

I made no such assertion that one SHOULD or SHOULD not take the vaccines. I simply took on YOUR righteous assertion that the poster who is a healthcare practitioner has some DUTY to take a flu vaccine. Try working with what is on the page in front of you rather than what you think you read.

supposed logical and fact-based arguments with titles referring to 'pantload'. That hardly bespeaks an intention to have a rational discussion.

And yes, I was asserting that a healthcare practitioner has, in some cases, a duty to take a vaccine or to use other protective and prophyllactic measures to protect their patients or persons that they may have some indirect contact with. That's hardly an outrageous concept, it's well established. All kinds of precautions are expected depending upon circumstances of both the patient and the practitioner.

Since she did not reveal her exact role but only claimed the title, it was not possible to evaluate her own particular circumstances so one is forced to consider the more general and perhaps egregious cases. She did not exclude them.

Even dealing with the general population, she would be FAR more at risk from them than they would be from her.

that could be transmittable before it was symtomatic - thereby warning her to avoid exposuring to others at their risk.

Thank you for supporting my argument.

And I doubt there is 'zero' duty though their might not be a specific law applicable to it. The duty could be practical, professional, or ethical.

She has no duty to put herself at any risk whatsoever. Most viruses are contagious when fever is present. She puts no one but herself at risk. I didn't prove your point, but feel free to continue grabbing as you have throughout this exchange.

"Most viruses are contagious when fever is present."

The actual period in which you are contagious due to a viral infection depends on the virus, however, there is nearly always an overlap in the contagious period and the asymptomatic period.

In addition to this, with influenza, and some other viruses, you remain contagious for a period after the symptoms have cleared up.

It's a few steps above a liposuction clinic. I assure you that most serious medical personnel understand the need for flu shots.

I'm not in patient-care, nor in a high risk group; no free shot for me this year. So I might get to use up some of that sick leave-- although flu is not fun at all.

respiratory droplets, i.e. coughing, sneezing and saliva ...a sophisticate such as yourself no doubt realizes that's when people do things like sneeze. Sneezing is a SYMPTOM. Therefore, she is correct in asserting she CAN responsibly manage her SYMPTOMS in an ethical manner with sound practices and KNOW when she is contagious.

and mostly through expulsion as sneezing and and coughing, it is not the only possible transmission. There is a small amount through expulsions of less volume (ie smaller amounts of secretion) that are associated with breathing. The viral loads from such would be much smaller, of course, but if the recipient is sufficient compromised, it could be enough. And there is some possibly of cumulative transmission of inadequate hygiene is practiced.

However, the main problem with your thesis is that there can be viral transmission before the carrier is symptomatic or if the carrier is never symptomatic and so not forewarned about their possibility as a source of contagion. It can happen with the first sneeze or cough if it is not adequately controlled/covered.

CDC-recommended practices include immunization of health care workers.

enough to go to the ER? Last year my friend had that happen to her and the ER doc said he was sick of seeing so many people with the same symptoms and never get the damn flu shots again. My friend has no allergies either.

from allergies, especially food allergies. The shots CAN cause severe allergic reactions and even anaphylactic shock which results in sudden death. Your chances of dying from the flu provided you don't let a fever spike over 101 or disregard any pulmonary symptoms which could result in pneumonia are minimal unless you have an auto immune disorder or are elderly.

elderly people and those with suppressed immune systems.

AKA- those who may actually die from influenza.

take a shot of a vaccine that may make you sick, and may have no effect on the actual strain of flu virus that may occur... or take your chances with the flu itself. I would probably think differently if I had an immuno-deficiency problem.

:hi: Oops almost forgot a question:

How was your day? :hug:

How was yours? :hug: :hi:

:)

only time I have ever been sick. Coincidence?

Gosh, I hated the way those Corpsman wound up as they stab us.

Unfortunately

:hi:

Just trying to find my way around here.:scared:

It's almost funny. They cancelled the flu vaccinations here at work because of the shortage and people are FREAKING OUT like they're all going to die this winter. When I tell them that I've never had one and that I haven't had the flu since I was 13, they just can't believe it.

Fact is, widespread flu vaccinations have only become common in the last few decades. Mankind survived countless millenia before that without the vaccination, and many of us still do today.

I just imagine the scene from Airplane! where all of the passengers panic at once, screaming and running around like the proverbial chicken wihtout a head.

It was so bad I couldn't get out of bed for more than a week. I don't mean I didn't want to. I mean I couldn't. I'd pass out.

And the symptoms started setting in a few days after I got my first and last flu shot. I won't even go near a clinic while they're giving flu shots anymore.

Felt like shit for about six weeks after the damn shot. Not bad enough to miss school, but dragged for weeks and weeks and weeks.

It's a way for drug companies to make money and the calls for everyone to get flu shots turns into a 'be afraid, be very afraid' fest for the local and national evening news. studies in Mock Concern 101. More sickening than the flu IMHO.

And those people should get flu shots. But, in times like these when they are scarce, healthy adults should leave them for those who need them. I have no problem with the flu vaccine, and if there is no shortage then any one that wants one should have one, and I'm glad that they're around. Because of modern medicine and better hygiene, the flu isn't deadly any more for healthy adults, but that was not always the case. In 1918 millions of people were killed in a flu pandemic. Today, it is rare for healthy adults to die from it, although it still happens. I don't think we need to be getting rid of flu vaccines, and I'm shocked at the response to them here, frankly.

No flu shots for me either. May good fortune continue to smile upon us this flu season!O8) :toast:

.

Maybe when if I enter one of the high risk groups I'll get one, but as of now, I don't see the need.

...but every time I go to get one, it has mercury in it as a preservative. I think metals are the culprit in brain deterioration, so I won't take such a flu shot.

It's a preservative. The drug company is saving money at my risk.

The effect of the metal is cumulative.

:scared:

...on this. One neurologist testified that he didn't need a clinical study to prove that mercury (thiemersol?) was harmful to nerve cells.

:scared:

I don't intend on ever getting one. I've never had the flu. I don't trust any vaccinations.

and other sites on adverse vaccine or drug reactions, you read a lot of stories that are heartbreaking.

"Please don't get an UNNECESSARY flu shot if you don't need it" Since there is a shortage and all....

was just saying that I have never gotten one. I agree that people at high risk have a lot more to consider.

and I do not take ANY medication so I'll be damned if I will take a flu shot

wash your hands

eat healthy whole foods

get up offa yer butt and move around occasionally

laugh

read a book

don't worry be happy

:thumbsup:

really sick from them. A friend of mine was in the ER twice last year from her flu shot as she developed enormous hives all over her body from them that night. The ER doc said he sees a lot of people with the same symptoms right after the shots and to not get any more flu shots.

I got one years ago...then promptly suffered from TWO FLUS not covered by the vaccines that year...ended up with pneumonia following a flu that attacked the respiratory system...none for me...my own immune system will deal with it.

even though I hate cooking... now THAT's love. I am SO glad you survived. :)

Perhaps you also would expect a polio vaccine to protect you from a strain of the flu ? How is getting an un-covered strain an argument for not protecting yourself against covered ones ?

And, of course, the purpose of a vaccine is to assist your own immune system in dealing with an infectious agent, not to take its place.

I guess you just better hope that your immune system is up to the task - namely fat enough to raise a suffient response.

When they make a rampant illogic one I'll call you

:toast:

(now if we can just avoid censure by the moderators)

you implied that I said something that I didn't. I was going to wish you a nice night. Have a night.

I got flu a couple times as a child. My senior year of college, I got it again. The first couple days weren't pleasant, but it was not the worst thing to ever happen to me. I saw the campus nurse and took anti virals. I saw the doctor a few days later when I thought that I was getting worse, but was actually on the way to recovering. I missed two days of class and one week of track practice. I lost 2 pounds. No big deal.

... they aren't very useful, I don't think you are missing anything.

They only work for the strain they decide is the one that is likely to break out, and there is always more than one strain.

I think they make sense for the very young, the very old, and the very sick. That's about it :)

when you started this thread did you intend to start the couple or more heated back-and-forth argumentative posts it generated?

I can't say I've never had a flu shot in my life, didn't pay much attention when I was a kid, but I don't get flu shots as an adult.

:hi: Mis

:hi: (Though the arguments seem to be generating from a sole shooter)

Due to a powerful prescription medication I take for my arthritis (Remicade), my immune system is badly compromised. Besides, before I started taking the shots, I got seriously sick with flu every time it hit. I haven't had it once in the ten years since I started taking the shots. The shot itself never has affected me at all.

"The shot itself never has affected me at all."

Glad to hear it.

With the exception of those people who do suffer an allergic reaction, which is extremely rare. Most people do well after the vaccination.

The vaccine can bring on mild symptoms, because it stimulates an immune system response (which includes fever, etc), but it will never actually give you the flu because it contains nothing but dead virus.

The immune system uptick caused by the shot is very mild. I've never experienced ANY symptoms from it. However, if i get the flu, the overdrive mode of the immune system that occurs is VERY bad for me. I have MS and the last thing any MS patient wants if for the immune system to go to full steam. MS is an hyperimmunity disease, so anything that moderates the immune system is a plus. That's the whole point of the medicine i'm on (Betaseron).

So, for me, it's not a matter of the immune system responding, it's one of the system responding mildly!
The Professor

I see.

I hope everything goes well for you this flu season.

Usually, spring is my worst month. The lack of mold and pollen in the winter seems to calm down my immune system. I get the flu shot every year, and so far, so good.
The Professor