I'm honestly afraid of GD

the people over there are scary. There's a thread going right now saying that the current conditions here are worse than 1940 Germany. I'm so offended (many of my relatives were dead by 1940, you will note) that it's just mindboggling. These are our peers? I'm sticking to the lounge...

some of the people over there are seriously loons...

I go there anyway, but rarely post. I have no desire to debate Dean vs. Clark vs. Kerry vs. Kucinich for the umpteenth time.

While there are a fair share of loons, it's worth it when you come across a good post or debate.

it was kind of ok when the election rules were in place, but it seems like since then it's just a war zone. It really makes dems look bad, if you ask me...

That's getting really old. I've been sticking to the lounge recently. I'll probably venture back in when things calm down.

I spoke up for Ken Salazar the other day. Fortunately, there seem to be enough people who are still willing to defend Kerry against the barbs of everyone else, so I leave that to them.

some people want to rehash the past to the 'umpteenth' degree instead of focusing on the here and now. Oh, and the thread(s) about Nancy Pelosi being part of the GOP. Common guys. I really hope that these are freep trolls trying to stir up something instead of level-headed liberals and progressives. Either way, it seems to be a waste of time to fight about things like that. I'm am beginning to avoid GD and GD:P. Its quite sad.

in dredging up the primary wars, either.

And I don't get the hatred from some DUers toward some Dems in the primary.

Leiberman's the only one it's safe to hate on. LOL!

America is nothing like Nazi Germany. Period.

They are right. Now you can ignore it if you like, and probably you can ignore it for a long time, but you won't be able to ignore it when it arrives on your doorstep. Ask any German who survived WWII and who didn't think anything was wrong until the last minute. They wished they had been better informed.

then I have nothing to say to you...

I'll ask my dead relatives who were persecuted and killed by the Nazis before 1940 whether or not things were fine--how does that strike you?

My history tells me that they would want you to see the signs. Do look at the signs. Really do. It isn't Jews that are the scapegoats now but it's all non-Christians who don't rally to a certain, blonde, blue-eyed Jesus. Look at the signs before it's too late for all of us.

I know you didn't just say that the Jews "are the scapegoats" for what happened in Germany. Please tell me that you are just not a very good writer and that I'm having trouble following your dubious point.

The Jews were the scapegoats for anything that went wrong in post WWI Germany and much of eastern Europe. Read Hitler's tome "Mein Kampf". He blames the Jews over and over for everything that had gone wrong up until that time. Not only that he is an Austrian who appeals to the purer in blood Germans (so they believe) to start his movement. What bothers me is why the Germans didn't kick him out to begin with. Maybe they weren't as bigoted as he was?

You weren't very clear and your point doesn't particularly follow from the line of the conversation.

And believe me, I don't need to read my history. I graduated with honors with a degree in history from one of the best universities in the world, so I think I've got that end covered. Really, I'd suggest that you take some of your own medicine. The situation in Germany in 1940 was so vastly different from the situation here (despite a few similarities to be sure) that it is almost laughable. To claim that Germany in 1940 was in a *better place* than we are now is actively offensive.

credentials are as impeccable as you state, you can't really ignore the circumstances that are happening now. I know in some cases the past is more real than what is going on in the present. Perhaps living history, the whole messy and sometimes weirdness of what is going on now, could be what history is about.

I personally had a very hard time following the events of the Vietnam war. It was so messy. We weren't getting the truth until much later. There was so much sifting through information at the time, but now we do know what happened. This is what is happening now and I can honestly tell you we are being ruled by a shadow government with no principles except those that are very close to the Third Reich.

If you want to argue that there are some similarities in current US policy and in various wermacht policies, you'll get no argument from me. However, the thread in GD, backed by you, suggests that *1940* Nazi Germany was "fine." That is a blatant falsehood whether you want to admit it or not.

twist it to suit yourself then I am done with you.

I don't believe I've been particularly impolite to you. Perhaps you are simply being unclear in what you are trying to say. Why don't you clarify your position so that I can better understand. I say this entirely earnestly.

I'm not saying that a person who doesn't have any degree can't figure this out -- but most of what's seriously wrong here takes place on a philosophical, rather than historical level.

You're right -- it's not at all like Germany, 1940. And, you're wrong -- it is.

A lot of the time the more subtle aspects of fascism are obscured by Naziism -- but the idea of rootlessness, re-birth (sometimes to a glorified "past" that never existed), cultural supremacy, magical thinking and the planting of false binaries through propaganda, can exist even without six million murdered Jewish people, and THAT is what we have in common with 1940s Germany -- not the SPECIFICS, but the broadly philosophical, which is obscured. Racism doesn't even have to be an element of fascism. Anyone can be scapegoated. Here it is largely minorities, gays and "liberal," -- people of the left.

And YES they talk about wanting to kill us -- and kill anyone that doesn't march in lockstep with their version of "Core American Values." I saw another thread at "Pee & Butt Lick" about Rachel Corrie that was the most crass thing, ever. They have it in them -- a Holocaust.

You apparently haven't read the Ron Suskind Article, where the Bush aide rips on the Enlightenment and lauds empire, accuses the journalist of being part of the "reality-based community," and says that the Bush squad are "history's actors" and all of us will "just" be able to sit back and study what they do.

Anyone who has a tiny inkling of sense is scared by this.

odd need to condescend to me by calling me "honey" I think there is a fair amount of merit in what you say. I don't agree with all of it, but you provide some food for thought.

And you were being kind of condescending when you whipped out your "I've a degree from one of the best universities in the country."

No offense, really -- and I have no problem with you making your argument -- this part is OK. It is not okay to make an argument that appeals to emotion, and get all offended that others basically jumped the gun on an argument, or that they could have put it differently. I have no doubt that the idea of the thread was not to stain the memory of the Jews, nor minimize their ordeal.

it's a little difficult to ascertain motive without, say, tone of voice.

WTF? Now, I'm offended! Elaborate .... please I wanna hear this.

are offended about the historical fact that Jews were scapegoated by the Nazis period of 1933 until the end of WWII in 1945 before I elaborate.

A methodical slaughter of an entire race isn't what I would consider a "scapegoat"

eom

I've heard it called wholesale murder, I've heard it called many, many things, but I have NEVER heard it called scapegoating.

Calling the holocaust of millions of Jews "scapegoating" is like calling Gacy, Bundy, or Dahmer jaywalkers.

It was scapegoating -- AND it was genocide. One can scapegoat a group, and then mass murder them.

It's actually a part of the psychological condition of the totalitarian mind, an element of fascism and other totalitarian systems -- splitting, projecting and scapegoating, which is EXACTLY what the Nazis did to the Jews. Then, they murdered them.

If you scapegoat a group, oh let's say women who practice witchcraft, and as a group you burn them in the Middle Ages or even later in history, ms/mssr historian, I would sort of call it a holocaust if you want to consider a holocaust as burning someone.

So let's get into real history, if in fact any of you, posting in the lounge, are in fact those personages, scapegoats have been historically sorted out in history as being those who would be persecuted by those who could.

So Christians were scapegoated and persecuted by the Romans, you will agree. Believe me when Hitler scapegoated the Jews he blamed them for everything that was happening that was bad in Germany.

Now I really want to know why you guys think we should be killing Iraqi's? They were scapegoated as terrorists. Please tell me you don't think they should be killed?

We might be going down that road, but there are NO MASS CAMPS.

There are no mass roundups of one specific race
No mass roundups of Homosexuals, Gypsies and undesirables

Camp X-Ray DOES NOT equal Dachau

However, Franco's Spain, I think we have an apt comparison...

it's really shocking.

And if we don't stop it, it will be like that...

But Remember it took a good 10-15 years from Hitler becoming Chancellor of Germany to the camps...

I still don't believe that we are headed there, if for no other reason than by around 1933 or so, Hitler had 95% approval ratings. But whether we're going to be like 1940s germany in 15 years from now is an entirly different proposition than saying that 1940s germany is *preferable* to our current situation, which is what the GD thread posits.

No way in hell 1940's was preferable!

the NSDAP got 95% approval rating your history degree aint worth shit (from my perspective).

With the other reactionaries DNP(?) assimilated in the party he got a majority (and even this only with the help of his militia-thugs of the SA to disturb opponent party assemblies)

I got that in School and Gymnasium... so one of us must be wrong

and I didn't say that the NSDAP had a high approval rating--I said that Hitler did. You will also note that an approval rating is not the same thing as a vote total.

They should have said early 1930's Germany. That was when the takeover just started. And if the DU and other Internet communities have any say, it won't go much beyond that.

don't you think?

Eve of destruction vs. Armageddon. One is recoverable, one is not. Some people here have jumped ahead in the analogy for dramatic effect. We don't have concentration camps yet, and we don't have to have papers at all times, but we are close. That national ID card is a computerized version of those, not to mention RFID technology. The Iraqis are the new Jew, and they are paying the price for our amusement.

I'd say 1936 or so. Hitler had trashed Guernica the way we just trashed Fallujah. No concentration camps yet, but demonizing Jews, gays, unionists, the disabled, etc.

And we can still turn it around, I think.

I may be sadomasochistic, but even I have limits. :o

It makes me depressed to read some of the stuff that gets posted. I know how bad things are, I need encouragement not more gloom and doom.

GD (which just happens to be my real life initials) has followed you into the lounge.

Now, if I may ... BOO!

Damn kids these days...

I hardly ever come to the lounge, but today I can't tell that it's much different that GD.

so I can brave it without too many ill effects.

usually I do too. It's been a rough week and I don't have nearly as much patience as usual.

it will stay the way it is now.

There's been a whole slew of crazy threads full of bigotry and hate in the past week; it seems the unstable posters outnumber the stable posters there now.

I'm staying in The Lounge...

we'll protect you :) with our fluffy cushions and relaxing music.

And I even operate my own station to listen to!;)

Radio Enigma- Genre-less, Independent Internet Radio:
http://www.radioenigma.com

they scare away the "stable" posters. If someone says something that they don't like, they are bombarded with attacks like "freeper" and "troll" so many people don't bother to post their opinions. At least the Lounge seems pretty safe.

slacking off. lol.

No, seriously, I think that's pretty funny, and that the balance is good, but even though there are some hil-a-rious people in the Lounge, and it's a fun place to visit, I do think that some of the references to consumerism, television, movies, et. al., are quite a bit, how can I put this "pleb," and it certainly lends to a "bread and circuses" feeling.

But that's OK -- I just wouldn't say it's superior to GD. I'm a poet and I happen to believe the best minds are crazy.

We haven't even made it to Venezuela-level conflict yet (although it looks like we're headed there within this decade), let alone Nazi Germany. And I wonder why some seem to think that we should only look at German history for a comparison to our political situation, as if there weren't many other nations' histories that might have a better fit. It just seems like they have a need to make everything as dramatic as they can possibly imagine.

However it's appropriate, IMO, to state that many of the hardcore Repubs have fascistic tendencies. The popularity of talking heads like Michael Savage and Ann Coulter who constantly dehumanize their political opponents and speak as though other opinions should result in either imprisonment or death is more than enough to warrant the use of that "F" word.

The main reason I really loathe the GD forum right now is that so many people seem more interested in factionalist in-fighting. It's a rehash of the 2004 Democratic Primaries, except it seems like the intrasigence has gotten even worse between those who are most interested in Democratic in-fighting.

by "making up" that someone is trampling on the graves of your dead Jewish relatives, when they're actually not. Sounds not unlike the middle-aged, teddy-bear-vest-wearing woman in the treeless cul-de-sac that shames us for not "respecting the victims of 9-11" because we disagree with George Bush.

or are you just talking out of your ass?

The thread in GD is called "In 1940, things were fine in Germany"

Do you agree with this? Do you not think that this is a little insensitive to those of us who lost loved ones in 1940 Germany? Apparently not.

and I don't necessarily agree with the thread -- read my post above. BUT what I do agree with is that it's just as dramatic, hot-headed and lacking rationality to whip up a stink based on sentimentality and offense, as it is to write off-the-cuff, insupportable or debatable things like "Germany was fine in 1940." It is not so unlike the vehement sentimental supporters of 9-11, who would call us unpatriotic for disagreeing with Bush.

Calling someone unpatriotic for disagreeing with Bush and not talking about 9/11 constantly is obviously incorrect and I believe that's something the vast majority of us could agree with.

Saying that it's scary that people could think that Germany was fine in 1940 is, on the other hand, correct and I believe that also something the vast majority of us would agree with. I'm not really sure where "sentimentality" comes into that...

"Gustave Gilbert, a German-speaking intelligence officer and psychologist who was granted free access by the Allies to all the prisoners held in the Nuremberg jail. Gilbert kept a journal of his observations of the proceedings and his conversations with the prisoners, which he later published in the book 'Nuremberg Diary'."

'Why, of course, the people don't want war,' Goering shrugged. 'Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship.'

'There is one difference,' I pointed out. "In a democracy the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars.'

'Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.' “

http://www.snopes.com/quotes/goering.htm

It's quite interesting and informative...

On the other hand, it still doesn't have anything to do with whether or not 1940 Germany was "fine" or whether 1940 Germany can be equated with 2004 Us.

What about the op of the thread in question who comes here to find himself misrepresented, maligned and used as an example of all that is wrong with DU?

I am not trying to renew the battle, but rather to gently remind you that I have been deeply offended now, as well.

I chose the subject area, and the wording of the post, for a few reasons. First, because it was already being discussed in highly inflammatory terms on other threads, so passions were already out of control and I believe that more communication, not less, is what is needed in response to that.

The second reason was because of the reading I have been doing recently on the subject and my desire to share what I though night be some constructive and healing insights.

Lastly, I was struck by a similarity in attitudes between the people in the majority group in Germany - as late as 1940 - and the attitudes of the people in the majority group here and now. It was these attitudes that I was comparing and contrasting, not the conditions between the two countries nor the two governments.

I did this knowing full well, and trying to avoid as much as I possibly could, the danger that the thread would devolve into a hateful and insensitive one as so many others have done.

I may have missed the mark, but I did want to tell you that my intentions were good and that your remarks here have hurt my feelings.

no need to continue this in public

I will watch for your message. Thanks for be willing to respond.

- Mike

I am the one who started that thread, and I am very sorry that you are offended.

I think if you look again you can see that I did not say that "the current conditions here are worse than 1940 Germany" in fact I wasn't trying to compare conditions at all, but rather I was comparing and contrasting the reactions and attitudes of the general public to conditions.

I understand that there is a lot of insanity right now over in GD, and I can't blame you for avoiding it. A few of us are trying to counter-balance the flame wars by starting calm and intelligent discussions on the most difficult subjects. People are making the comparisons between pre-war Germany and the United States today, and I think that is going to happen.

I am saddened that you picked my attempt to calm the passions and engage people in a thoughtful and considerate dialog on this very troubling and sensitive subject as an example of an offensive thread.

Again, I regret that you are offended, as that was not my intention.

You learn to spot them...

:hi:

with some forums here since the election. And I just recently took a few days off from the computer. It DOES get to be too depressing.

As for the 1940s Germany stuff, I do find that to be a bit over the top.

I don't think it's unreasonable to say there are small signs we could be headed that way (God help us) and maybe I am just in denial, but 1930s Germany would be far more appropo and I don't even think that's quite comparable (weren't they experiencing a currency crisis, as a result of the consequences of the Treaty of Versailles?).

Anywho. Take GD in small doses. That's what I do. I find LBN to be pretty depressing, too, but the news usually is. Especially with this mofo in the White House.

Thought I was in DU lounge, but the posts read like GD.