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I was born into this world with no belief system

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SingSong Donating Member (119 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 10:42 PM
Original message
I was born into this world with no belief system
I looked at Mom and Dad, and said to myself, in my own way, "take care of me."

Then I had to look at the rest of the world and deal with their ignorance -

after all, I know everything in my own world.

I shed the beliefs of those who loved me because they hold back my mind.

I have no belief in historical childrens books.

That's the way it is.

Who is free of dogma?
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anti_shrub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
1. I'd like to think I am
but I was raised Catholic so I'm sure there's some remnants left behind.

For the most part, I've put religion behind me.
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SingSong Donating Member (119 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I feel such guilt for you
those damn remnants.
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Brucey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 10:47 PM
Response to Original message
3. All knowledge is corrupted by the way it was obtained.
No one is free of dogma, if one defines dogma as having a perceptual and cognitive frame, a schema. These are derived not just from content, but from the medium. As Marshall McLuan said, "The medium is the message."
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. That's right. n/t
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SingSong Donating Member (119 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. There you go
mom and pop define your frame of reference, and it's up to you to break out of the box?
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Fenris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 10:48 PM
Response to Original message
4. I never had any
I cannot believe anything without sufficient evidence (I happen to agree with W.K. Clifford's argument). I tried. Really, I tried. But in the end, I resigned myself to the fact that I simply couldn't have faith.

But when I am asked, I say both sides are wrong, because both sides deal with certainty where there is none.
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Brucey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #4
31. Are you certain of that? Perhaps there is some certainty,
after all.
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Fenris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Nope. I believe it is probable.
Or it is perceived to be probable. Dedicated Humean. It's late and I'm off to sleep.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 10:51 PM
Response to Original message
5. You gotta have faith in something, man.
Give up the anger and embrace your hope. Hang onto every last shred of it as if it were your life.
"Everything's gonna be alright."
That's all you gotta know.
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SingSong Donating Member (119 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. I have absolutely no anger
I do have hope.

Belief is not the same thing.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. Forget faith.
Hope's all you need. Just hold on to it, you'll be fine. :)
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anti_shrub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #5
17. Funny thing about faith
Is when you use the words "believe" and "faith" in a non religious context, it shows uncertainty. When you use them in a religious context it means not having a doubt that you're correct.
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SingSong Donating Member (119 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. interesting point
let's think about that for a minute?
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. It's because it's just undying hope. n/t
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Stupdworld Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
7. you "believe" these things
though they cannot be truly independently *proven*
how do you truly know you have been weaned from your parents teachings or influence? next thing you know you might just open your mouth and watch your mother or father come out of it.

if you worry too much about dogma, you'll miss the fun of not having to worry about beliefs.
/truism
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SingSong Donating Member (119 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Sorry
too much upside backwards inside out up is down thinking there for me!
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populistmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
11. I'm free
When I was born, it was to a Methodist mom and atheist former southern Baptist dad. She later converted to Catholism and my dad now goes to a semi-progressive Congregational church.
I went through the Catholic stuff as a kid, but long ago got rid of the negative shit that caused me problems. Now I go to a very progessive Methodist church. I try to do some good in the world. I think that's what life is about, not the dogma.
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HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
12. It depends on who raised you
Though (as every has) I have my problems with my folks. I find the values and lessons they taught me to be valuable ..not just in a "Socially acceptable way" but in a way that makes me happy..in my world...the worst thing that can happen is to get caught up in your own bullshit dogma. If you think you know everything...have a nice life.
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SingSong Donating Member (119 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Finding happiness in the values of others
is not necessarily a bad thing, but the point is how many find their own beliefs without the unbelievable influence of those like parents?

If it's you own dogma, how could one possibly think of it as "bullshit dogma"?

We grow and learn, another point of the post. We never know everything, but the courageous ones ask questions about their beliefs and why they should or not make sense.

Make sense?
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HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Bullshit dogma you ask?
Edited on Tue Sep-30-03 11:19 PM by HEyHEY
Thinking that you've somehow figured it out..and others haven't or trusting yourself too much..the human brain is just that - a brain. Those who think their own thoughts too much end up stupid.

"We grow and learn, another point of the post. We never know everything, but the courageous ones ask questions about their beliefs and why they should or not make sense." - Exactly
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SingSong Donating Member (119 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. You're not paying attention to the ideas expressed
exactly
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HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Example
I am , I just have a different view, where that view comes from you don't know. You are thinking I don't it. You see? Your own beliefs and thought patterns have you thinking I'm not paying attention because I don't operate on the same wave or agree with you. had you been totally free, you would have gotten it...same goes for me..the way things work.
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SingSong Donating Member (119 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. Nope
Your logic is seriously flawed.

Read and think. That's all it takes. You are still trying to defend something. I could care less about what is being defended, but do care about the logic behind it.

You are still expressing the thoughts and beliefs, not directly necessarily, that you had when you were (or still are) as a kid.


uh oh. I don't want to cross the line here. Spew whatever you want, and I may not bow down to the illogic or lack of information, but I'll still respect you in the morning.
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HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Look, I'm sure you're a nice person..
But comes a time in everyones life when they put away that kind of thought pattern and realize...work with what you're given, and there are certain things that will always be there.
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SingSong Donating Member (119 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. I'm sure you're a good person
but the point of this post is that there are no certain things. I have yet to find one certain thing.

My thought pattern is what I chose it to be. I'll take it and run with it, not put it away.
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HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. then were in agreement
See! I've been saying the same thing.
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SingSong Donating Member (119 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Okay
so long as we agree, I agree with agreeing. I'm agreeable.

:)
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #27
33. Psssh please. No certain things?
At the very least you have El Cogito. You can't doubt your own existence without existing.
But I'm not playing this game with you.
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HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. Thanks
I appreciatte that, I find most phylosophy obvious and boring
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. Sure thing...
...I don't find new ideas boring, and very little of philosophy obviously unquestionable, but some routes are just dead ends.
Look SingSong, your point is well-taken and extremely important to philosophy. It led to a huge revolution in the way that people looked at the world. It's a great tool. But it leaves you with nothing, and you gotta move on to something else. Instead of tearing everything apart and looking at the tiny little pieces, try contrasting what that method has taught you with "the big picture." It's amazing how different they are.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. You know it's true but you gotta kinda get over it...
...because it gets ridiculous. If you wanna analyze, analyze yourself analyzing everything and see what you see. I feel foolish looking at myself that way.
I still analyze plenty but have given up trying to prove the existence of a greatest conceivable, benevolent being. It ain't gonna happen.
Eventually you gotta stop trying to outsmart God and just go with it. Let the anxiety go and hope for the best. Have a beer, get laid. Enjoy the gift.
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HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. Amen
He's right.
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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 11:18 PM
Response to Original message
21. Religious Dogma Free
Parents are apa-theistic and agnostic.

I dig the Camus school of positive Existentialism.
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SingSong Donating Member (119 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Here's a good one
Man is the only creature who refuses to be what he is.
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LeftCoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 11:37 PM
Response to Original message
30. There is more to religion than dogma
Do you see no value in religion at all?
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SingSong Donating Member (119 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. Straightforward question
I see no value in religion other than giving rules for people to live by to keep a society together.

That's not a bad thing. I believe in most of the same things religions propose, postulate and evangelate.

My problem is not with religious beliefs, it is with the blind faith that leads people to embrace one over the other depending on their cultural or ethnic or geographical biases.
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LeftCoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. You mean
like Catholics v. Protestants in N. Ireland?
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SingSong Donating Member (119 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. That's a great partial example of how
individual beliefs are formed from almost birth, and have no basis in reality. What's reality? What we make it?

What a shitty reality that is.

I'm thinking not only those with religious beliefs, though, but also those that reject them.
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