My daughter is pledging for a Sorority (sp?) What do you think of S&F's?

Having never been to college myself all sorts of nasty sterotypes came to mind when she told me.... the worst of which were good looking, but ohhh-sooo snooty Sorority "girls". She claims they do good little deeds like raising money for charity ect.

She's nearly 20 and can do as she pleases, so I said nothing about her pledging other then to ask her to please not let it interfere w/her schoolwork. She laughed and reassured me that last weekend's male stripper 'thing' was only a slight diversion. :eyes:

I'd love it if you guys could give me some inside info on what goes on w/sororities and fraternities. Do they do all have "hazings"... or just certain ones? My daughter claims all Syracuse F&S's are "dry" which makes me feel somewhat better... But moms worry....

:shrug:

This person apparently was never part of a Fraternity, Sorority, or any other social club.

F&S are not for everyone, as with everything.
It can be a very rewarding experience. It is whatever you make of it. "You get out of it what you put into it".

Whenever I travel, look up members of my Fraternity in that area, and I contact them, and try to hook up with them (even if they were not active when I was). It is very much like having relatives all over the US (and world).

Your son/daughter will do great things in college, and they might do some dumb, or even illegal things as well. This is going to happen whether they join a fraternity/sorority or not.

Don't fret too much about this.

Cheers
Drifter

I have some real concerns about my daughter's choice to join, but "buying" friends??? Unlike her nerdy mom, (I was in HS :-))I've never known her to have friends in short supply.

But hypothetically, if my daughter was "buying" friends through sorority membership what would be the currency? $$$???

the best friends I have to this day. 10 years later. Nobody has paid any dues in years, so I doubt you could say we 'bought' friends.

I have a number of friends from Beta Nu chapter.

Gosh.

to see this tired cliche trotted out in this thread.

I really enjoyed my fraternity experience. There are things I would have done differently in college, but joining a fraternity is not one of them. 15 years removed, the greek system at my school has changed and most have become more "mainstream". Really just an exclusive social club, but with some formalities and probably some required memorization of the club's history is what your daughter will experience. Sure, there will probably be some minor hazing (it does still go on), but I wouldnt sweat it - probably the worst thing would be she and her fellow pledges having to wear their pajamas in public or some silly stuff like that now.

You shouldnt sweat it, and being 20 your daughter is probably ahead of the curve in maturity and can recognize bullshit when she sees it.

We had very high academic standards and had one of the highest GPAs among fraternities and sororities on our campus. There was absolutely no hazing in our house.

I'm not much of a "group" person, but I did enjoy most of my time there. My biggest problem was finding time to myself, as everything was done in groups.

I wish your daughter a happy experience. :hi:

and expect everyone to kow tow to them. I don't believe anyone over 105 lbs is allowed in and they all have blonde ponytails. having said that, it is a stereotype but there are an awfully lot of these types in sororities and they do drink like fish. This is coming from a (nonteaching) faculty perspective, not a peer perpsective. This is just what I see.

it just seems like an unneccessary way to exclude the people you dont like from something else. but, of course that is a personal decision, and i wont knock someone for wanting to join one

one thing, though. a "dry" frat is just something they tell the university


:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

I have a daughter who attends a small private college. She has friends in sororities but decided it wasn't for her. It's really just an organized way to make friends.. and (like me) she's never liked the clubby/exclusive nature of this type of thing. It's like a continuation of high school, where some people are cool enough for your club, and others are not.

Having said that, I think it could be a very good idea for kids at very large universities who might otherwise have difficulty finding a group of loyal friends. It can be a support system.

Different groups have different reputations regarding the party vs. academic focus. So knowing the local reputation of the sorority is probably useful info. (Are they jocks, nerds, pretty party gals, or..)

Unfortunately, there seems to be some stress around "getting chosen" or "not chosen" and status as to which group welcomes you. Also, there are membership fees.

I was in a community service "fraternity" at a large university. the word fraternity is in quotes because it was not really a fraternity, it just said it was. Alpha Phi Omega. The letters may be greek, but it is non-greek, they don't haze, they do collect dues, but all organizations do. We did community service, but we also did fellowship events. I thought it was a far better alternative than joining an actual frat. They all seemed like a bunch of idiot George W. Bush wannabes.

I got interested in joining a sorority. While at the time I was a skinny attractive tall girl, I was deemed to be non-sorority material (I was a science/sports/engineering geek) when I responded to a questionnaire for the school's yearly greek rush week that I did not drink much. When I interviewed with the sororities, I found most of the girls to be shallow, overly interested in hooking up with guys and too self-centered. Despite my having a very high GPA, scholarship was never something that came up during the interviews.

In the end, it felt like I would be buying friends (which I already had anyway) and a club-like atmosphere. My then-roommate joined a sorority and she changed (for the worse). There was nothing that she did outside of her sorority and that included forgetting about her pre-sorority friendships. What she did in the sorority, however, was to develop a very unhealthy obsession over her weight. Apparently, that sorority had a huge bulimia/anorexia problem (it was even written up in the newspaper) where they'd have crazy contests.

The point is that sororities may be a good thing for some and a bad thing for others. But, the way I see it, they are definitely NOT a necessary part of college life. There are many people who do not join these groups who have high GPAs, a good social network, and yes, they still manage to find men/women to date. All this without having to pay money or being hazed or being stereotyped.

they had an air of superiority and exclusivity to them.
The "buying your friends" comment is from the paying of dues each year so you can hang out with the other frats or sisters.

Was definitely not my scene...

I knew nothing of dues. She's working her own way through college w/two jobs. I try to help her whenever I can, but I'm sorry to say it's not alot. I HATE the thought of her spending her hard earned money on dues. As I said earlier, she can do as she pleases, but I will ask about those dues and whether she thinks it really is worthit.

Thanks again! :hi:

have to pay something for the sorority house, if they have one. I am sure there are other ways the organization nickle and dime members throughout their college years.

In the past many wealthy families encouraged their daughters to join sororities because they knew their girls would interact with people of their class. The girls would also be introduced to fraternity members who were also of the same socio-economic class.

I know a woman whose family is very upper middle class and when she tried to join a sorority at her private school, she was told she was too big and that her family was not wealthy enough (even though her mom and dad owned an insurance company).

but I was in a fraternity in college for three years. It was actually cheaper to live in the house with board than it was to live in campus housing, all things considered. I lived with a more diverse group of people than I would have otherwise. Ten years later, many of them are still close friends I see at least twice a year.

Some F&S's are bad but your daughter sounds smart. I would trust her judgment if I were you.

She's young and I'm sure her political opinions will alter to some degree over the years. However, it'd have to take something HUGE to get the liberal out of her.

She helped w/all of my State Rep. campaigns and worked on others as well. She's a Poli-Sci major who eventually would like to hit the "big time" with Gubernatorial or US Congressional races.

Who knows, maybe she'll change the political persuasion of some of those rich snobs she in her sorority. :-)

That would be amazing. I find nearly all to VERY conservative (in the Britany Spears "We need to support our president" dumb way)

Not all, but most (in my experience -- but I'm in Colorado, a conservative state)

The current president of the College Democrats from my alma mater is a fraternity member. When I was in college, several College Democrats were in Greek organizations. When I went back for initiation a couple years after I graduated, the president of my sorority, who we had initiated when I was a senior, was also president of another leftist group on campus. Of course, the campus tended liberal. Several members of the Intervarsity Christian group were also Democrats so I don't know if my campus is representative of anything.

:grr:

Please don't stereotype those of us in a Sorority/Fraternity. I was in one for 4 years and loved just about every minute of it. I was also one of the founders of the Young Democrats at our college

at UNC (I graduated loooong ago) St A's co-ed literary fraternity/sorority...those folks had their priorities straight.

Gosh.

I went to a university that had them, but they were a very minor part of university life. VERY minor. I know at some universities they are a central thing, but not at mine.

In fact, there was a decidedly anti-S&F feel. People used to walk around with shirts that read: "Rent your friends, join a frat!"

But that's not why I never did. Just didn't want to. Wasn't even good friends with anyone in a sorority.

And I know it's a stereotype, but the guys I knew in fraternities really WERE insufferable. Ug.

and for once I obeyed them. It was a wise decision.

When I first entered college, I was interested in joining. Mostly, because they had some of the best housing and the cheapest rents. I had become a "little sister" with a roommate one quarter. I was in liberal Berkeley and none of my friends wanted anything to do with sports. I was a huge sports fan and so I enjoyed the football and basketball events and school spirit. I guess it's fairly easy to get asked to join a soroity once you are partying with the fraternities.

I didn't join and moved on after those first two quarters to politically active friends. When I saw those women as I progressed they always seemed to be in groups. They had very little interactions with anyone outside the greek system. I hosted a radio news show with someone in a soroity and she would talk about the pressures on her to party in the greek system and give up her interest in politics. Most were much more conservative than she was and way more conservative than I was.

I'm glad I never joined. It would have been a mistake for me but I do know some great adult women who are very glad they did join a soroity.

And although there was the "Snooty" types in our sorority (we seemed to have all the rich girls in our sorority) there was also the kick-ass cool folks like myself. In fact my 3 closest friends I have from college (this is almost 20 years later) are 3 girls from my sorority.

I think that all Colleges & Unverisities are very conscious of the drinking that goes on with S&F especially during pledge period. With the number of deaths that have occurred during F&S hazing most campuses have restricted what can & cannot be done.

Even still - the worse I ever had to do with my pledging was eat a goldfish. And my sorority's family tree required that a sister from my branch had to be the one that served goldfish to pledges on Hell Night.

Edit Note: BTW, it is true that our sorority was required to do so much community service every year. Back them we mainly helped out with local senior centers and hosted fundraisers for various causes.

that they were goldfish!

I'm still very good friends with some of my sorority sisters. We still get together at homecoming 25 years later.

We did drink, but no more than any one else did. Really and truly, we did try to keep our GPA's near the top.

I still had friends outside out of the sorority. In fact, my roommate never pledged. Come to think of it, she's the one no one ever hears from!

At our school, the sororities seemed to be divided up by everyone's majors. One sorority had the El Ed and Business Majors, another the Music Majors, and another one the Speech Path majors. We were able to give each other a lot of input about certain profs, schedules, student teaching, etc. that way.

It's just like anything else in life...it's what you make of it. We had a blast. To each his/her own, though.

Have all been negative. My views of frats were that you basically pay a lot of money to have a group of "friends" who will tell you when and where to study and eat (at least if you're a new pledge). Frats at my undergrad college were full of hyper-competitive jerks who would bend the rules anyway they could to win inter-college competitions, drink themselves silly, and act like snobs. At my graduate college, they were worse. One frat couldn't even make it clear to their members that when the giant Teepee went up on the lawn across from their house to mark Native American Heritage Month that you shouldn't go and pee on it after drinking heavily - every year, a different moron from the same frat would do that and get busted. And sorority girls after a while all started looking the same to me - perfectly coiffed blonde pony-tails and eyes that told me that her biggest worry was whether to wear red or pink fingernail polish.

My best friend married one of those, and when it became apparent to her that she might have to put some effort into the relationship and might have to wait to get the things she wanted, she filed for divorce and then bounced from relationship to relationship because no one could give her her fantasy life.

TlalocW

There is nothing quite like it. If she is in to it, she will have a wonderful time.

meet new people (which is a big part of college life)and many of them do good for the community as well. I think movies like animal house and the like gave them a bad name.

exclusivity, whereas college ought to be just the opposite: a place to run up against the most diverse opinions and experiences possible. If we are to build a society that cares about people, we might avoid groups of "our kind of people" as opposed to "the other kind."

There were "good" sororities and "bad" sororities. You can easily tell the difference by visiting and seeing who the other sisters are.
I lived in a dorm, but had a lot of greek friends, and our floor was "adopted" by a sorority for their dances and such...nice group of young women. However, they were considered "fleas" by the other sororities, so that should give you some idea. the Worst girl's house was Delta Delta Delta, where the pressure to conform and fit in was so intense one girl snapped and set fire to her own face because her sisters deemed her "not pretty enough".

you can have an independent personality in the greek system, but its hard in some houses.

The things to fight are pressure to conform, pressure to participate in drunken orgies, and destruction of self-esteem. Not all houses are enemies to self-esteem, but beware that many are/were.

I would prefer my kids not join one.

They seem a very anachronistic institution to me.


The drugs and alcohol would be the least of my worries - ALL college kids indulge in pot and alcohol - that is a normal part of growing up.

I'd be more worried about my kids turning into one of THEM - the type of people who question nothing, buy a house in the suburbs, drink Big Gulps in their Navigators, or become TV weather girls.

Gosh.

I was very lucky to be taken in by a group of wonderful misfits whose unifying characteristic was appreciation of humor.

Blacks and bigots, gays and straights, the animal house or nerds had nothing on us.

About ten years ago the current brothers tracked us down from the histories, sent us invitations to a reunion gathering. Needless to say, us brothers from the sixties showed them how to party.

One of the brothers told us, "One of the reasons we did this was to see what we would be like when we got to our father's age. Would we be cool, or would we be like them?"

To which, one of my brothers, who had just told a bartender to pour 50 shots of tequila, and set them on the bar said, "You think I'd let my kids see me like this?"

--IMM

But one of my dorm roommates did. She spent a lot of time on "activities" during the rush period. To the point that it interfered with her schoolwork. Also, at least at the University of Illinois, it was very expensive compared to University Housing. Also, it seemed to me that the sororities encouraged conformity. They all had their particular kind of people. You had Latino/Latina Greek houses, African-American Greek houses, your standard Greek houses, your sports houses, etc. Every house was looking for a particular type of person. I think it limits your exposure to different ideas.

I would never do it myself, and if I ever had kids, I would discourage them from joining one. That being said, they are exactly the right thing for some people.

Edited for spelling errors

I had great experience in a sorority in college, learned a lot about leadership and working with a group. Most of the people I stay in contact with from college are friends from greek organizations.

No hazing - in fact, they treated the new members really well. The national organizations are pretty strict about that these days. Traditionally black sororities, however, haven't signed onto the anti-hazing bandwagon and do still haze - you may want to keep that in mind if that's the type of sorority she is looking to join.

I went to a huge university - 35,000 students -- and would have been lost without the Greek system or some other group. I saw it happen to people I knew who weren't involved in anything. Also, I know it's a generalization, but sororities in the Northeast tend to be less competitive (and less Republican) than those in the South, so there's less focus on appearance and clothes, etc.

As for service, it isn't always just superficial - the big fund raiser for greeks at Penn State is Dance Marathon, which raised 4.1 million this weekend for kids with cancer. There's a lot to learn which can be used in the outside world when each group is raising $150,000+ each year.

The only downside I can see is that she's working 2 jobs, and traditional greek organizations are pretty time-consuming, especially during the pledge period. Be sure she pins them down as to the time committment - it's easy to minimize this during rush. Dues vary, but they're usually not that bad. They are not for "paying for friends", which is a typical outsiders' way of looking at it, but for things like insurance, housing or facility rental, ceremonies, periodic checks from HQ to be sure that there's no hazing, that sort of thing.

As someone mentioned, she may also want to consider a service organization (like APO, which is a co-ed "fraternity") or one of the many clubs or activity groups that are not so time-intensive.

opinion of them: They exist to make college bearable for students who shouldn't be there in the first place. Planning parties is their main activity. They're very time-consuming and demanding, and accept no excuses for non-participation. If you miss a house meeting, you're fined. Students will skip class or even tests because their Greek organization made a demand on their time, and they will get nasty if you tell them that rush week is not an excuse for missing a test.

These organizations sap energies that could be applied to doing life-enriching extra curricular activities, such as music, theater, student journalism, volunteer work, study abroad, or outdoor activities. Take two colleges of equal size, one with a strong Greek system and one without any Greek system, and the one without a Greek system will have more participation in extra-curricular activities. How pathetic is it when a 16,000-student university with most of its undergraduates in Greek organizations has only a forty-member chorus and has to go into the community to cast plays?

Proponents may talk about forming friendships, but one can do that in other ways. They talk about raising money for charitable activities. Yeah, and they usually pick "safe" national charities that no one will object to (Special Olympics, March of Dimes) and raise a couple hundred dollars for them. Whoopee.

My feelings could be summed up thus: If you want to be on a college campus but insulated from most learning experiences and surrounded by people just like yourself, pledge a fraternity or sorority. If you want to expand your horizons, don't.

I considered it for awhile when I was young and naive, but I'm so glad now that I didn't. I would have been scratching my head trying to figure out why the hell I wanted to be like people I hated.

And some sorority girls develop reputations, simply because they are IN a sorority (At UNT anyway, where I went). It precedes them wherever they go.

The main joke on our campus:
"What's the mating call of the sorority girl?"
"Ooohhhhh I'm sooooo drunk!!!"

Good luck!
FSC

signed,

A grad student

and Special Olympics. And Oxfam and YouthAIDS, too. All those "safe" moneygrubbers. And all the Greek members I knew that were active in music, theater, journalism, volunteer work, student government, language clubs and marching band--especially the one guy I knew who transferred from Ohio State but flew back to be the "dot" on the 'i' at a halftime show because apparently it's some sort of life-enriching traditional experience--don't even know what they missed.

'Cause the best advice anyone could get about expanding their horizons is to not do something.

I will admit that college was not the place I should have been when I graduated from high school.
But it's what all my friends were doing.
I was a conformist sheep in the late 50s and early 60s.
OK, probably on into the early 70s, but that's another story.
It's what we did in the days of "The Man in the Gray Flannel Suit".
We didn't make waves and we went along to get along.

I was a legacy for one fraternity, but jumped ship and pledged another. So maybe I was at least a "black" sheep of very limited non-conformity.

All of my friends were also pledging fraternities, so to do otherwise was unthinkable. If you couldn't get into one you were automatically some kind of "square" and socially unacceptable.

Oh, and you're right about the parties.
Killer.

Having said all that...
I never missed a class because of a house meeting. They were at night. I missed classes to go to New Orleans or sleep in.. Both pretty much non-fraternity-related enterprises, and entirely worthwhile. Ah, memories.
;-)
I never missed a test because of rush week. I missed tests because of going to New Orleans, sleeping in, or because I knew I'd bust the damn thing due to lack of preparation if I took it right then. Never do today what you can put off until tomorrow after some cramming.
:shrug:
My energies were sapped largely by late parties and trying to get laid (largely unsuccessful). I was a member of the chorus, ensemble, and intramural swimming team. Oh and I worked, for wages, at the local newspaper.

I did form friendships that were largely transitory in nature. I have one friend today from back then, but we were friends in high school, so I guess that really doesn't count.

I did make friends outside of the brotherhood, especially in journalism school. And I don't know a single one of them today.

I guess fraternities and sororities can be frustrating to a professor. Never thought about it from that angle.

It was just a time in my life when I wasn't thinking deep thoughts about anything at all very much. But I sure don't blame it on the fraternity.
whatever

My feelings could be summed up thus: If you want to be on a college campus but insulated from most learning experiences and surrounded by people just like yourself, pledge a fraternity or sorority. If you want to expand your horizons, don't

Lydia, I value your opinions but this one was an "ouch" moment for me... My daughter's love of learning is what got her into a pretty good school like Syracuse in the first place-(88% acceptance rating and I've heard it's since gone up) Not bad for a kid from a poor rural school. OK, so it isn't Wellesley (my sister's school) Vassar, Yale, or Radcliff. But I'm still very proud of her. Especially since all but a fraction-(about 2.5k) of the annual 40k tuition is through grants and scholarships.

I guess I just take the biggest exception to this particuar statement: If you want to be on a college campus but insulated from most learning experiences and surrounded by people just like yourself

I understand your point and who knows... it may be true of many or most individuals w/in a sorority. I'm not denying the fact that you very likely know more about them then I. But there are always exceptions to every rule....Somehow I just can't picture my daughter, just because she joined a sorority, starve herself of the I/P issue debate, or the chance to discuss whether of not the decline of the cold war had anything to do w/the decline of liberalism in modern day politics ect...

I could go on and on. But the point is that her interest in these and other varied subjects was what made her different here in Maine and I suspect may make her different in a sorority. If not then great, she's found a good group of friends. If so, maybe they'll become more interested a world beyond themselves.

PS- My daughter and I had some spirited debates on the above mentioned subjects ... when she was 16... and she chose the books. :-)

Our meetings were at night.

We had lunch and supper together every day - that was great!

My house had the highest GPA of any fraternity or sorority on campus every semester I was in it, and also was always higher than the non-Greeks. I can't remember for sure, but of the 15 sororites and fraternities we had, the non-greeks usually averaged about fifth place in the rankings of GPA.

I never missed a test because of fraternity happenings, nor did I ever miss a school meeting, field trip, or what have you. That would simply not have been tolerated by any of us in the fraternity, nor in the school.

And fraternities/sororites keeping students from being involved in school activities? Bullshit. We had class presidents, Greek Society Presidents, I was on the school special events committee for many semesters, I ran one of the school newspapers, we had others on the other school paper, we did intramural sports (we had no "real" sports teams, just throw together inter-school mayhem fun teams), our guys were active in many of the engineering societies (it was an engineering school), we had people on the yearbook - hell, we had people everywhere in the school. I'd say our inolvement was about the same as the non-greeks. We were higher than most houses, but I don't know of any house that didn't have a lot of people very active in the school.

Not to mention all the outside charity work.

And we had four weeks of rush, not one, but no one ever missed a class or any other bullshit just because of rush. I don't know why anyone would say that. And during initiation week, all the Associate Members (we had no pledges) lived at the house for the week, and the week was very structured to give us early bedtimes, and enforced study time.

Don't let anyone paint the greek system with a broad brush. One of the houses we had on campus I had no good opinion of. But most were quite excellent, had good people, and did a lot of good things. And as you can see from this thread, those who were involved in the greek system had a great time and loved it and did well. So far as I can tell, everyone on this thread who has bitched about the greek system was not a member of it.

I'm amazed by the fact that a few jerks--and yes, every single group of people has a few jerks thrown in the bunch--get chosen as the representative "frat guy." The truth is, my fraternity was probably the most diverse group of people I've ever been a part of, with members of every race, religion, and sexual orientation. We had jocks, 2 valedictorians in 3 years, Phi Beta Kappas (and some guys who barely graduated). I myself was awarded a "Greek Achiever" award for my commitment to both Greek life and the larger school community--and my GPA. Every year the IFC and Panhel awarded "Greek of the Year" awards and they always recognized the Greeks with the highest GPA and most service.

I think for the most part f&s's are keenly aware of their history and reputation and have taken steps to ensure that their members represent the ideals they claim to advance.

BTW, I *never* missed a class as a pledge--it simply was not allowed, because as a pledge and brother you represent your house, not just yourself--and any brother who was found to have told a prof that he missed class because one of our events would have faced a lot of pressure in the house to shape up or ship out. And, yes, we did have fines for missing house meetings, but if a brother had a commitment outside of the house, that would have been a valid excuse for missing the meeting. The reason for the fines is to communicate the importance of attending the meeting during which serious issues of house governance are discussed and decided. I should point out that the fines were never monetary; they usually were extra work detail around the house.

I could go on, but, I guess the best thing I could say is that you can't judge a fraternity or sorrority by anything other than the individuals who make up that chapter.

NHD, Theta Chi 'til I die! :)

I SURE HAVE MISSED YOU!!!! :hug: :loveya:

:hi: :hug:

An inappropriately large proportion of the students taking advantage of the study abroad option at my school were Greek. It was a wildly inexpensive program - attend a semester abroad for the same price (including room & board) as a semester at our state school. The only thing you needed additional was RT airfare. Why all the Greeks? Because it was a underpublicized good deal, and the older girls made sure the younger girls knew about it and got their applications in on time.

On the downside, as the professor states above, there wasn't much of a push to join arts organizations or national politics (not big during the Reagan 80s anyway).

But we were at a state school and weren't rich kids, so there WAS a lot of interest in career-oriented groups - future engineers, marketing club, etc. and other groups that might help us find employment when we graduated. Thanks to the older girls, we knew which of these "major-related" groups were useful - had good speakers and information, and which weren't. Jounalism majors found out about opportunities on the college paper.

After graduation, I got more than one interview through older girls in the sorority as well.

And on edit: Penn State's greek charity was safe (kids with cancer) but we raised a little more than "a few hundred dollars" for them.
http://live.psu.edu/story/10456

$4.1 million this year alone. The chapter I belonged to contributed $170,000 of that.

So, depending on what you think about me 40+ years later you could draw some conclusions.

It's been my experience that most who were in them liked them, and most who weren't didn't. Pretty much as expected.

I've seen the "buying friends" canard before. If so, I guess Elks and Rotarians, and bridge clubs, and various social organizations are just buying friends too. There seems to be a lot of it going on.

I pay dues to 3 organizations right now, so I'll have to plead guilty.
;-)

I prefer to maintain an 'inclusive' worldview.

At the bottom of it all, frats and sororities are about excluding those who, for whatever reason, are deemed unworthy of inclusion.

Fuck 'em.

On edit:

Q: How many sorority girls does it take to change a light bulb.

A: About a dozen. One to change the bulb... the rest to make a t-shirt about it.

I was in a frat and enjoyed it. But it was the campus "unconventional" house that took in those that didn't fit into the usual jockoid mode that the other frats took in. We had everything from science nerds to most of the theater department (including Woody Harrelson). We were also VERY anti-hazing. I wouldn't have enjoyed a "typical" big state school frat.

Don't let the naysaying assholes get you down. Most of them were not in fraternities or sororities.

I still have some very best friends from the fraternity, and I support the national and it's scholarship programs, and still support the chapter I was involved with.

That said, there are some shitty ones out there, for sure.

But if your daughter likes it, then let her have at it. She'll never know until she's fully in it.

I would never, ever give up my fraternity experience.

He enjoyed it, and turned out to be a fine, if extremely conventional-thinking democrat, but that was back in the 50's.

And my statements are based on my experiences with frat members when I was in college in the 80s. They are not like the caricatures in films, but for the most part they have values diametrically opposed to my own. And the percentage of assholes in frats seemed higher than the overall student body. And the frat houses were pigstys!

I joined a sorority at a small private liberal arts college. Our sorority had just adopted a new new member program, which strictly prohibited hazing. No one was forced or even strongly encouraged to do anything which they were uncomfortable with. Some members drank alcohol while a few didn't. One of my friends, who didn't drink at all, joined the sorority that had a reputation for drinking, but even she didn't feel too much pressure to drink. On our campus, most of the sorority members were not shallow and tended liberal rather than conservative, but that was true of our campus too.
One thing that I liked about being in a sorority was that it was an all woman's organization. We really looked out for each other, worked on developing each other's strengths and leadership abilites, and periodically presented programs that were pertainent to young women. Iniation wasn't a hazing event, it was a spirtual, non religious type ceremony just like weddings, baptisms, or graduations. Some groups emphasize the initiation and "secret" values and tradition more than others.
As someone else mentioned, sororities in the North tend to be less cut throat and shallow than in the South.

It was the kind of thing I could have invited my grandmother to - no pain, no humiliation, no coffins (isn't that what they say about Skull & Bones?), nothing weird or uncomfortable. But I can only speak for my own (national) sorority.

And being in an all-women organization after 13 years of co-education was kind of nice - gave me a chance to organize things, run a group and manage people.

Plus, there was pressure (at our school at least) to keep the grades up - our school published rankings each term showing where each sorority's GPA was, and we all wanted to be at the top of the list. That all-sorority GPA was well above the all-women GPA.

My husband was a fraternity brother. He said his fraternity was for "misfits and other Jews" and that his local house voted to go co-ed, which got them booted from the national organization. It all depends on the frat/sorority in question, I guess.

Even if I'd wanted to, I knew it would be a waste of time to even try. They'd have hated me on sight.

Just curious actually - they are all different in scope and activities.
My school did not offer these - I chose a college that did not have them. That said, I have some friends who have siblings that have joined frats and sororities, and the experience was fine for them. They are very social, though, so the kids I knew had some trouble keeping their eyes on their books... but they all did graduate :)

is what she tells me.

Anyone know about them? :shrug:

Her experience was very positive. She went to a small college. She held every office in the sorority at one time or another. She was also an alumna adviser for the Kappa Kappa Gammas at another school when she was a grad student. She enjoyed that, as well. She is an active alum now.

I think Kappa Kappa Gammas at her school were the smart girls. (All sororities and fraternities seem to have some sort of campus identity).

She came out when she was an undergrad and an active. She said some of the active members had cows about her being gay, but not many. And she got literally hundreds of supportive e-mails from alumnae.

She went to a national conference for the Kappas, and was instrumental in getting them to add sexual orientation to their non-discrimination policy.

She went to school in the North, but has told me that they are largely a Southern sorority.

I had no use for sororities when I was an undergrad. But I went to school in the sixties. Many of us had contempt for the establishment, and found political activism a more potent form of sisterhood and brotherhood.

There are pros and cons to joining a sorority. The most obvious pro is that they create a network of peers that may help your daughter find a good job after college. Increasingly, peer networks are the most beneficial way to find job opportunities in our current competitive employment market. The con would be that they do ask for a lot of the girls' social time, making it difficult to meet people outside of the sorority/frat network. Also, the sisters are encouraged to participate in as many events as possible, so your daughter would have to learn to balance studies and a social life. Granted, all students have to do this, but the sororities have activities clearly built into their weekly affairs. This is problematic for some, but certainly not for all.

Nationally, they are very strictly anti hazing. The current new member program is based on educating the new member about the organization and integrating her into the chapter. New members do not have to do anything remotely demeaning, and I do mean remotely (Our chapter was told to change certain traditions that none of us considered hazing or demeaning, because these traditions could be considered uncomfortable to a new member).
They are a very strong organization nationally, which is good for networking and such. They also offer scholarships and temporary health insurance to alums. They have high standards for their chapters and their members. You can read more about them on their website.
Each chapter is different, but I assume that your daughter feels comfortable there, especially since she made the decision to join after her freshman year. The new member period gives her time to make the decsion whether to initiate or not.

I was at U of Illinois, where the greek system was fairly large, and seeing the lifestyle mostly from the outside, i knew that it was something that i had absolutely no interest in participating in.
I suppose it's a good thing for some people- just not any people that I would care to know.

fraternity or sorority? If not, how can you possibly make this statement?

"I suppose it's a good thing for some people- just not any people that I would care to know."

Unless, you're only interested in knowing people who are clones of yourself in thought and deed. If that's the case, I feel very sorry for you. You're going to miss out on some really wonderful people.

We attended a few for the "free eats".. We knew they wanted us because of our GPA, and little else..

We thought it was a hoot that we were the only "girls" there wearing jeans and sandals in a sea of coordinated Bobbie Brooks sweater & shirt sets :)

Needless to say, we did not join :)

But we did date Frat guys :evilgrin:

Off campus rules! You can make up your own rules. I eliminated four seasons from the calendar and replaced them with one season!

Mating season.

Not perpetuating the stereotypes that are ablaze here...

friends, participated in fund-raising for the American Heart Association, went to some great parties. I didn't feel limited to sorority types as friends. It was a terrific support system for me. I hope your daughter enjoys it! If she's waited this long, she's probably joining for well considered reasons.

Social, honorary, and professional. The usual objections to the usual stereotypical behavior seem to be directed only against the first.

I am a member of a professional (co-ed) fraternity http://www.alphachisigma.org/ that happened to run a house on my campus. We were much more like Revenge of the Nerds than Animal House. We proudly dropped the 'r' from our Greek Week t-shirts, and our "hazing" probably didn't qualify as such, being concerned with teaching pledges chemical and alchemical lore, and nothing more extra-curricular than that. No running around campus on strange and humiliating errands, and no doing chores for the members.

It may be possible to locate former pledges of your daughter's prospective sorority to find out more, if you're really worried. Her interest is probably nothing more sinister than a search for identity in the strange collegiate environment. Best, perhaps, to observe her behavior during the pledge cycle and beyond, to see whether she changes for the worse.

for the families of children with cancer and for Hershey Medical Center's pediatric cancer support services.

Four MILLION dollars this year alone - the 31st annual IFC/Panhel Dance Marathon (other groups participate, but at it's core, it's a Greek event)

I thought I did, but just in case I forgot.....

Here's to those shallow, useless, fraternity assh#les and sorority bitches

and so is the one you are holding!!!!!!

The families of the patients participate in the Marathon (they don't stay the whole 48 hours, but they stop by to remind the students what they're there for) The little girl in the picture is clearly there with the families.

The little kids - both patients and siblings of patients - get a big kick out of the college kids fussing over them.

I didn't have the wherewithal to stay on my feet for 48 hours when we participated years ago, but I did go on a few road trips to Pittsburgh to harass people for money.

I was more of an individual, by choice. I don't like the all for one and one for all crap if it is conferred upon you be dint of a club that you join.
I don't like "us" and "them" splinter groups.
That said, I do identify as a dem, and I do see 'pukes as "them".
I guess there's enough of that without creating false tribes.

Having grown up in the northeast, where it's not big to pledge, I found myself pledging at my small, liberal arts school in Ohio.

It was the best thing I ever did. They have a minimum 3.0 GPA requirement (or you're booted) and a minimum of 3 volunteer activities per year. Sure, we partied, but we were also active at the local senior center, the local battered womens' shelter, and with the Make A Wish foundation. In addition, a lot of us participated in walk-a-thons for Breast Cancer, for MS and for childrens' leukemia.

My sorority is the largest in the nation. They pride themselves on ensuring that they build women who do as much for themselves as they do for others.

Were there bitches? Absolutely. But you find people like that anywhere. But as for me, it taught me to get along with others, like them or not, and to become the best woman I possibly could.

As far as I'm concerned, if I ever have a daughter, I would be proud to see her pledge.

sounds as if she has possibly made friends with a bunch of women who are in a particular sorority and wants to be in the sorority with them. I saw this happen a lot on my campus. Girls would bypass rush freshman year, make a lot of friends who happened to be pledged to a particular group, or already actives, then go through rush the following year, find the group that fit and go for it. Yeah there were some girls that were not chosen, but not very many. Often those who were not chosen were the type who have a hard time finding acceptance anywhere..who just didn't have social skills. One that comes to mind in particular always gave me the impression that she considered herself 10 slots above everyone else anyway, and that never comes across well when you are meeting a new group. Sometimes a girl would not get bid because the sorority of her dreams wasn't a good fit but she put them as #1 on her bid preference card anyway and the group who really wanted her was the one she either put last on her bid card or that she did not list at all. No match, no bid.

If you want to know more about the group she wants to join, that is if she has a specific one in mind, go to their national website. You can find out quite a bit about it there.

My roommate for my entire college career joined our soph year. I didn't for what I now consider ridiculous reasons. But we lived on the same floor as the sorority and they were my closest friends. They gave me an honorary membership as a wedding present too. I have regretted not joining formally.

There will be lots of parties, intramural activities, philanthropic work, opportunities for leadership, and priceless long term friendships. Hazing, not likely. The National Panhellenic organiztion which is an umbrella for all of the 26 national sororities frowns heavily upon hazing, and so do the national orgs. A chapter can lose its charter because of it.

After graduation, she will have the alumni network, which can be fabulous. Wherever she goes, there will be that network.

At a small college, sometimes the Greeks are the main source of social life. At a large university, joining a sorority can provide a very safe, comfortable place to be at the end of the day, with friends linked by the common bond of their group.

We had three: one was sort of the "Preppy" style, and would come closest to being the snobby one, although I had some good friends in that group; one was the PE Majors (mostly); and the third one ("mine")
was a very ecelectic group. If they liked you, they bid you, Period.
So there were Ed majors, Drama majors, Bio majors, art majors, etc.

keeping grades up is very important, as most schools require an individual GPA to stay in school, and the organization will require a certain GPA to move up from "pledge" to active status. If the group as a whole does not maintain the required GPA they can get probation, or lose their national charter.


Sometimes young women will go through rush, just to see what it is like and end up not joining by choice. That is OK too. Sometimes they go through rush not expecting anything and accept a bid and it turns into the best thing that ever happened to them. There are statistics that show that women in Greek organizations tend to stay in school to finish more frequently.

On some campuses the Greek system is the only social scene, period. If you want to have any social life at all you go Greek. It is neither good nor bad--it is just the reality of it. Each house has its own character and some are more down to earth than others.

On other campuses, the Greek system is optional. You can have an active life without the frat or sorority.

If your daughter is working two jobs and going to classes full time I'm betting it has been tough for her to meet a wide number of people. It is possible that going Greek makes good sense for her and will really enhance her college life.

knowing you, I think you probably raised a great kid with some common sense. If she really WANTS to do this, then give her your blessings and be happy that she still calls home!

Laura

BTW, I can't tell you how happy I am to see you on here! It's been TOO long! I met some of your "Maine staters" a while back and they were most excellent progressives!

with the sorority girls I knew in college. They all struck me as the ritzy, snobby, ex-cheerleader types, who shunned everyone they didn't feel was up to their high standards. I knew a girl who was trying to pledge, and one of the many hoops they had her and others jump through to join was some intense fitness "training," including running up and down stairs. She as a friend who was already a member who said the fitness stuff was to get the fat girls to drop out. ::eyes:: They also had to do things like not talk to boys and wear skirts and dress for weeks during pledge time. I thought it was Lame with a capital "L."

Fraternities (and sororities) breed prejudice, snobbery, shallowness and
mindless conformism. They are segregated so much that members of a particular house look like clones of each other. Very often, random acts of vandalism on or near large campuses are carried out by fraternity boys. Mind you, I'm not saying that all Greeks are bad, just that the peer pressure to act thoughtlessly is much higher. Frankly, most students who pledge aren't interested in 'service' or anything like that
they just want to be cool or 'in'.
Several colleges have considered doing away with the fraternity / sorority system altogether, but there is enormous pressure from Greek alumni with deep pockets to keep the system intact.

PS My views are based on observations of the frat scene in a large Midwestern university.

My cousin is in one now, I told her she would hate it, but she didn't listen to me. she hasn't been to a function for a year, yet her parents still pay shitloads of money for her to remain a member so she can say she's an alumni after graduation. she hates it, but wants to use it on her resume. I have to say that it would make me think twice if I were doing the hiring. (notice I said 'think twice', not 'not hire them')

My aunt (two years older than me) was in one in college. she changed from a pretty cool person to someone I didn't even recognize, almost instantly after joining. She was never the same. and the changes weren't for the better. I still love her, but...find it hard to spend long amounts of time with her.

I have never once met a woman who was in a sorority that didn't say the following "Our chapter does so much community service, and we have one of the highest GPA's on campus!"

Whatever. I don't get it. I get one thing though, I will never agree with those who like/join them, and they will never agree with me.

I dated a few Frat guys in my younger days, all of them assholes in the end. I am sure there are exceptions, but I never met them.

I am not a fan.

Had until recently no national fraternities or sororities but local ones which each produced certain personality types. My sister was in one which she considered to be hyper-cool and her "sisters" were OK except for one or two real racists. In my time in that college I formed a group to provide another social experience. It was coed and one of the rules was that if there was someone everyone liked who was trying to get in, that person was not allowed in. Also our main reason for existing was to win the College Bowl contests and to drink more per capita than any other group on campus including the jock brotherhoods. We won that too.

that should give you a general idea. :P

No doubt about it, they suck...

time we were all insecure enough (as in doubting our own merits*)that we thought we needed it.

I have to say we had a great sorority so that made all the difference. We were a very tight knit crew, at least our pledge class was and the gals ahead of us were.

However do I condone sororities now? I don't condone rush. It's a terrible thing to do to young kids. But if there was a way to 'rush' girls and guys without it being so selective, it could be a great way to get to know other kids on campus your age.

for two years. He was also from Maine. I didn't meet him until he transfered to University of Maine. I believe he was going to join a frat back when he was at that school, but then he wound up transferring. He partied a lot with one frat, don't remember which one. Anyhow, all fraternities and sororities have parties where people drink. I think they "dry" fraternities and sororities just don't provide alcoholic drinks to people, but some people will still bring their own. I don't think the hazing thing happens much at all anymore. Most schools have cracked down on the hazing pretty hard.

I would never have tried for it nor would I have passed muster if I had.

I was in a sorority in high school, even. It makes me laugh to this day some of the things they made me do in public in front of lots of people. I still had friends outside of the sorority.
It was no biggie.

and sorority girls are, well, lets just say they live up to the stereotypes.

There are of course some good ones that are mature, but they are a decided minority.

A few have hazings, almost none are dry, they may say they are but I seriously doubt it. (most (read 99%) college kids will end up trying booze in college, about hald already drink before college).


edit: Im not saying DUers in/were in frats/sororities are this way, this is just my experience based on being a student here.