If Ian Curtis had lived, what sort of career would Joy Division have had?

Would they have gone on to be a post-punk Pink Floyd, achieving the kind of success The Cure did (and would not have achieved had Joy Division continued, given that much of The Cure's career has been a series of NO/JD knock-offs)? Would they have replaced U2 as the biggest band inspired by punk? Would they have slowly melted away back into obscurity? Would their career path have been the same as it was, with doomy-voiced Ian singing 'Love's got the world in motion?'. What do you reckon?

Which, of course, is a very scary thought.

The thought of him singing "Love Will Keep Us Together" is truly terrifying.

I guess I mean 'cheered up enough to not commit suicide' not 'cheered up enough to force others to commit suicide'. He'd still be melancholic.

But if he had lived, I don't see Joy Division ever reaching as much noteriety as New Order did. New Order had a wider appeal. Joy Division exists in something of a niche market.

Or maybe Curtis would have split or been thrown out of the band, thereby releasing Hook, Morris, and Albrecht/Sumner from their duties enabling them to form another, possibly more dance-oriented group.

I mean Love Will Tear Us Apart, not Love Will Keep Us Together, which I have always despised.

The rest of them obviously wanted to ultimately move in a dancier direction, and I can't see him being part of that.

again.

His suicide was a great loss to music, but I find it difficult to imagine him living with the personal issues he had.

Would Joy Division have achieved as much notoriety without New Order?

As far as your question - I think they would have recorded a few more albums and faded a bit... but they would have maintained a cult following.

I don't think they would have ever been a big commercial act.

As far as commerciality went, with a more rational record label, New Order could have been huge. Of course, a more rational record label probably wouldn't have let them get away with half the stuff they got away with on Factory. Another chicken / egg eh?

and for that I can never forgive Ian...

RL

:grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr:
:nuke: :nuke: :nuke:

:hi:

RL

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

:P

:puke:

RL

I'll keep it AAAALLL to myself :7

If my wife gets control of the stereo, all I will ever hear is New Order, Depeche Mode and Erasure, while she dances around the livingroom like it's 1985 all over again.

I am thus forced to cleanse the aural palette with HARD THROBBING DISTORTED LOUD GUITARS (tm).

Actually, seeing her dancing around is kinda cute...

:D

RL

Spelling out exactly why would take more time than I'm willing to spend on a time-machine rock hypothetical that doesn't entail the hands-on slaughter of Alain Jourgenson, but short version: had Curtis lightened up enough not to snuff it, the essence that made his lyrics so moving and powerful would have been lacking, and the mildly sugary, orchestral synths that started playing a role in JD's music as of "Closer" would have pushed the band over into sacchharine territory without the frisson of IC's elegiac lyrics holding the entirety of the work in check.

The sad fact is that the myth of Joy Division is almost as big as their music. And part of that myth is Ian's suicide. It's terrible for the Curtis family, just like it was terrible for Kurt Cobain's family, just like it was terrible for those who loved John Lennon, but an instant way to have yourself immortalized in the eyes of your fans is to die young and/or tragically.

With that said, Joy Divison is my absolute favorite band of all time, but I do have to wonder how much of that I see through the entire myth of Joy Division, and not just their music by itself.

The music Sumner, Hook and Morris were able to make post-Curtis attests to that.

But it's like comparing Nirvana to Pearl Jam.

Don't get me wrong, I like New Order, but (especially lyrically) they went further and further downhill. I find their newest album almost unlistenable.

New Order were the most consistent group of the 1980's, and their output has long surpassed Joy Division's in terms of quality.

The lyrics are the best example. Bernard Sumner was nowhere near the lyricist that Ian Curtis was.

Musically, they did some incredible things in the 80's, but I think Republic was probably the last good album they did. Even Bernard Sumner's side project with Johnny Marr, Electronic, started out with a great first album and turned into complete shite later on.

Peter Hook and Stephen Morris were probably the best musicians remaining in the New Order / Joy Division line-up, and you could tell that they were getting better and maturing quite a bit as musicians. Bernard Sumner just seemed to get worse. It seems like he doesn't even try to write decent lyrics or even sing in key anymore.

Joy Division was lucky to have Ian Curtis kill himself, in a way, because that's the entire reason I can make the Joy Division-better-than-New Order comparison. Joy Division has the benefit of being frozen in time with some great pieces of work - New Order has been allowed to decay into the same thing that happens to all bands that have been around too long: The Cure, U2, The Psychedelic Furs, etc.

For one, you have the artistic differences (Curtis vs. New Order) that have already been discussed.

Plus, how on earth do you top "Closer"?