Thoughts on boundaries

What constitutes abuse and violation of boundaries?


For me another person hurting me physically without my consent is a violation of my boundaries..

Lets make it more subtle..How about a hypothetical situation of leering..

For me,when I am walking down the street and minding my own business,to be subjected to overt sexual leering and undressing me with eyes is a violation of my personal boundaries. It offends me because it is disrespectful of me personally and I am not consenting to being objectified and used as a sex toy..It's a violation of my boundaries that leaves no visible evidence like verbal abuse can, So because leering is being forced upon me by rude people without clear self control or respect of me It's wrong because I say it is,first because it's a non consenting invasion of my self sovereignty by objectification..and intentions can be spoken by the body just as clearly as words.Leering can appear as the intention to rape which is a criminal abuse of power.

Leering (for ME) is alot like unwanted sarcasm or verbal humiliation, because it is dehumanizing.It communicates to ME certain hostile intentions. This disrespect of my person hood is implied by leering. And since I am subjected to the intended effects of the leering it is I alone who has the right to say if it is disrespectful To ME or not.And it is I who must enforce my boundary of respect for my person hood's sake.

I know alot of people(leerers mostly) who may disagree out of their self interests and want to make excuses to keep doing it.But their wants do not matter here because these are MY boundaries being crossed,not theirs. So it is for me to enforce my boundaries by letting the offender know their intent is unwanted.. I say this for MY sake. My boundaries are not anyone else's to define,make or maintain. .Likewise for others.I cannot tell another person I punch what force I hit them with hurts them because I am NOT feeling the effects of the punch as the puncher,An abuser cannot decide for the victim what types of abuse can't hurt them..


Other people who are NOT interacting with me who are different than me existing in a common space can only offend me ONLY if I have a confused sense of what my own BOUNDARIES are. Having a bad sense of what ones own boundaries are can make a person desire (sometimes with authoritarian,neurotic intensity) to force or manipulate their own kind of cultural ,aesthetics,own ways,or chosen interpersonal limits they themselves prefer onto others who are not interacting with them,in the vicinity to make them be as the person with confused boundaries wants. With the leering it's different situation than people minding their own business around me.. the leerer was interacting with me communicating a predatory intention.
Existing and being different is not communicating a predatory intention to me until a message verbal or non verbal is communicated to me to deliberately exploit or control me or to violate my boundaries.

The other side of the predatory boundary crosser is created when a person with confused boundaries who is conditioned to tolerate others invading others or their own boundaries enforces their lax boundaries on you.(by devaluing,denying or redefining another persons consent for them denying them the self sovereign freedom to choose) and gets offended when someone says NO or YES about what kind of intention,attention,culture or behavior I will tolerate in MY life.

A person has a right to say no and to say yes to most anything that they want to that does not involve a violation of someones consent..
If a person disrespects another's consent,it is up to the person who's boundaries that have been violated to say No or Yes and enforce their own boundaries against the violator and demand acknowledgment of offense.Abuse is invasive to boundaries because it violates consent,and it violates boundaries of self too it is very damaging because it is abuse of power by taking away the power of another..

Violating consent by saying yes or no for another person without their consent negates their freedom of voice thereby taking away their right to decide for themselves if their own boundary has been violated..or not.

Say if I am so insecure as to expect others who are not interacting with me,not paying attention to me or sending me their intentions verbally or non verbally..to automatically conform to what I consider "appropriate" for no other reason than their existing makes me uncomfortable,or it's scary or makes me feel insecure,than I am being a bully to them by expanding my boundaries beyond rational limits and I am violating THEIR boundaries.


I expect my OWN boundaries to be respected by other people I interact with. Mutual respect of boundaries is one way how people build a foundations of trust in relationships. Because I expect others I trust to respect my boundaries after being informed they have just crossed them ,I am being reasonable to them(I would be expected to respect their boundaries in return) While having clear boundaries for myself and respecting myself, at the same time.Mutual respect of peoples boundaries is the essence of an interactive civility and it can be a foundation for conflict resolution.


But...
Some people are not happy to permit others who are different to be free to choose different ways to exist around them as they are.They have boundary issues.

People who seek to meddle and want to control other people's choices,lifestyles,limit their freedoms to what THEY think is 'appropriate" cause problems in relationships and society.. People who meddle in the affairs of others for want of control have confused boundaries.Controlling people often fail to acknowledge how invasive they are to others boundaries .Because if they did acknowledge it they would have to admit they are bullying and they know they'd be told to stop it...and their controlling is not legitimate.

A limited minimally diverse world appears 'stable'to some people because they can understand it and feel in control. For the person who confronts a controllers excessive boundaries by simply existing in the same vicinity as they do and sharing the same 'space' with them controlling people are a problem. Some kinds of creative "protean" people by being who they are,by making the choices they make with their own freedom ,the risks they take to explore the world offends insecure rigid authoritarian people with confused boundaries..and the intolerance of ambiguity and diversity makes them attack the things in others they don't understand,that mirror rejected aspects of themselves,or that scare them.Authoritarians and their enablers have big boundary issues.

People who have an unclear understanding of where their own self boundaries begin and end..can create problems in relationships and society ..Likewise people who are confused about where other peoples self sovereign boundaries begin and their own boundaries end..also create problems in relationships and society.

Both confusions types in relation together,in a society creates alto of sick dynamics..Everything from Parents being over control freaks,nanny laws,and bullies being excused ...all sorts of social and interpersonal conflicts,and insanity in society I think at least partially are due to alot of people having confused interpersonal boundaries ,and alot of the stupidity and wonderful discoveries and freedoms in this life arise from the struggle of alot of confused people trying to find their own boundaries,defining their limits for themselves,and deciding what changes to keep from the past and what from society is bullshit,and enforcing their boundaries and violating others boundaries inconsistently.

Saddest thing is the varying degrees of violations of personal boundaries that people face as children..That does ALOT to create the confusion about what are self boundaries and how do you enforce them,seen so much in adults now..

Why is live and let live so intolerable for some people?

ill try and read it morrow

"Don't Leer or I'll Bitch You Out!" t-shirt when you go out in public. Problem solved.

Well, that's what I was thinking.

You seemed to focus on leering but you also talked about other kinds of boundaries in your post. I think that this is at least somewhat related to your point.
She stated that we all have emotional boundaries just as we have physical boundaries. Most people are uncomfortable when others stand too close to them. This may differ on an individual basis on the basis of culture, relationship, and individual experiences and preferences. Most women, for example, don't let strange men get as physically close to them as close female friends.
Bullying is one way that people violate our personal boundaries. It turns out that there is another way people can violate each other's boundaries and what I am guilty of. Some people become overally empathetic to others, especially those close to them (close friends, relatives, partners). When their partner suffers, they suffer. It becomes difficult to disagree with their partner because of this. While some people take advantage of this, many people become uncomfortable with this boundary invasion and may emotionally distance their partner or friend.
I then revealed that I did learn this from my parents, especially from my mother. There were no explicit rules or arbitrary justice when I grew up. My parents actions towards me depended entirely on their mood. I was careful not to act up or do anything disappointing because it might make them angry and treat me badly. Unfortunately, simply existing as their child could make them angry as could the actions of the other parent. Regardless, the most important thing in my life while I was at home became making my parents happy, which became more important than my happiness. Having two very differnt parents as well as the influence of extended family and other adults through school and community kept me from becoming a clone of my mother or parents, but I tend to to have this boundary issue with my husband, close friends, and authorities figures in my life.
I had not thought of things this way. Often as a child, I stood emotionally further away from children my own age and had a hard time making friends because I thought that emotional closeness necessitated pain (especially with children who seemed to enjoy making fun of others). I guess that it is finding balance. I do think that emotionally bullying, like I experienced as a child leads to breaking down the naturual boundaries. I suppose that some people react by doing this to others. I think that those of us don't get shut out of the lives of those who we care for, who are uncomfortable with the boundary invasion, and are left with a feeling that everyone else takes more than they give from us.
Maybe, this touched on what you were talking about a little from some sense. For many, these emotional boundaries seem naturual but for others of us, we have to learn them as adults because we learned them wrong in the first place.

:hug: (if that's not crossing a boundary... ;))

That's not crossing my boundaries.

"The other side of the predatory boundary crosser is created when a person with confused boundaries who is conditioned to tolerate others invading others or their own boundaries enforces their lax boundaries on you.(by devaluing,denying or redefining another persons consent for them denying them the self sovereign freedom to choose) and gets offended when someone says NO or YES about what kind of intention,attention,culture or behavior I will tolerate in MY life."

A few spaces notwithstanding (for readability's sake) ;), brilliant post. :thumbsup:

You get these guys, like the construction workers at the building where my wife used to work, and they stand there with their hairy old bellies hanging out of their greasy T-shirts, dribbling donut crumbs off their chins, and when a woman walks by, it's whistles and "hey baby, you wanna (whatever)," and so on, complete with kissy-smacks of their lips and lame hip-swivels.

What's the point of all this? Did they really think that my wife (or any other woman) would respond to this by stopping and saying, "Oh, yes, I think I'll come over and have a hot, steamy night of fun with you, you manly hunk o' sweaty, illiterate man, you!"

I told my wife she ought to try saying the above, just to see what would happen, but she didn't want to (and I can't say as I blame her). Fortunately for her, when she got really sick of this crap, I had the time to walk her into work for a few days in a row...making sure they got a good look at her holding hands with me. After that, when someone catcalled her, she said, "Remember seeing my husband with me last week? Do you want me to have him come down here and have al ittle talk with you?" They left her alone after that, but not the other women.

So what is it with these guys? Any explanation?

Redstone

and they stare, but rarely say stuff that's rude. they may say a woman is fine or looking good. or oh mama.....that's about it. they're passing time the best way they know how, staring at women. i work in the fashion district and there are a lot of hot women that pass through. their are also a lot of women whose clothes are screaming for attention (good and bad). to be be fair to the men, it's a lookist enviornment. i rarely hear or see much that feels threatening to me or the women around me, and go ahead and flame me, but i have seen women be complimented by it. men claim they are playing the percentages, if you cast often, you will catch one eventually. one of my friends swears he has met women that way...and he's pretty funny/ creative with his comments. flirting is his life, i don't doubt he does okay with it sometimes.
a lot of these guys also live in poorer neighborhoods, where women are more apt to be tolerant or receptive to courted with a rap, there's definately a cultural divide there. and they are definately more respectful to the women on an obvious higher economic level, pretty much because they know they are dead in the water. but they still stare at em. they really don't miss a single woman that passes by.

that said, what you describe is a lot more hostile, lewd suggestions? these guys are just doing that so they can justify their opinion/ validate their experience that all women are stuck up bitches.

"but i have seen women be complimented by it"

No question that happens.

I asked for an explanation, and yours was thoughtful and informative. Thanks.

Redstone

We can only use rational and ethical means of protecting our selves from psychic insult.

as a form of sexual harrassment. The case was fought on behalf of a woman who was being stared at by a guy who had made advances at her-advances she'd refused. Later, he stared at her to intimidate her. I had a similar problem at work.

This absolutely repulsive guy never made "overt" advances, but he stared at me without having the decency and civility to avert his gaze when I glanced up. He timed his cigarette breaks in conjunction with mine, which were utterly random. He positioned his chair so that he could watch my friend and me as we talked.

He also lingered in doorways, so that I had to yell, "EXCUSE ME!" as I passed through. Several times he passed by me closely enough to "brush" me. This, with enough of a berth of space on his other side. He had such horrible BO, too, and I felt really picked out. Four months of this 5 days a week left me thinking I was the crazy one.

I came close to having a nervous breakdown. I talked with the men at work about it, but they smiled or brushed me off. They'd never "seen" any of it.

Once, my boss came up behind me while I worked. He said quietly, "Could you-" and I jumped out of my chair and screamed, startled. I started laughing hysterically, and he smiled & walked out. Then, I was crying.

Having your boundaries invaded like that is a horrible feeling. You have the right to not be stared at, you have the right to walk around freely and not feel invaded. To me, your post is excellent, and I felt I had to respond with my story. Thank you so much for giving me that opportunity!

For example, when I'm outside a store, going in, and some man just HANGING OUT at the door says, "How YOU doing?" WTF? It's simple aggression! Can't I just go through the doors without having to say anything? NO. If I don't acknowledge him, I'm the bitch. If I do, I feel I just gave up some of my own energy to appease some stranger's ego. Sometimes my silence is followed by an,"Okay, if you wanna be like that, then, you have a nice life!" It makes my skin crawl.

earlier. you're in a public place, the guy is standing around, pasing time, not stalking you. you should just ignore it, and for your own sake not get so upset. he probably says that to everywoman that passes through the door. it shouldn't be so hurtful to you if it's just "how you doing" . it can be annoying sure, but not worth a huge reaction from you.
my old boss used to like doing a lot of intimidating things just for kicks. you don't even want to know. i had to sit him down and give him a really specific talk about what i felt was offensive. yeah, he thought i was being oversensitive, but i referred to notes i had, and i think he might have been afraid i was documenting it. and so, it stopped.
did you talk to the co-worker who was following you, tell him you prefer solitude on your breaks... asking him if you had spilled something on yourself or what exactly is the reason he stares? call him on it. people continue this kinda thing, and lots of other bad behaviour, until they are called on it. until then, they can say they had no clue how it affected you, and technically this is true. this guy is short on social skills, and empathy too, i would guess. you need to stick up for yourself in these instances, becasue co-workers bosses are loathe to get into this grey area of subtle behaviour or a he said/ she said kinda thing. they don't want to open a sexual harrassment can of worms in the workplace for their own sakes. and "staring" is a tough one...if they play devil's advocate, how do you know he's staring all the time if you're not looking at him alll the time too? you need to speak up for yourself directly, and politely with this person. if he's not a total freak, he will be really embarrassed and stop it.

or at least subjective, but I think the old "Do unto others" standard is not a bad method for people to apply. I've had some recent examples of people not respecting my boundaries, and have wondered whether or not these people were aware that a)they didn't know me b) they weren't in a position to enter my personal space.

The first one is kind of harmless, but irritated me nonetheless. A person at work entered an office where I was having a conversation with another co-worker. We both acknowledged his entrance, but were still handling our business. Perhaps he felt he needed some attention. He got too close to me and was *staring* as if challenging me for eye contact. (He was over six foot tall, so he was *looming* over me.) So I did what came naturally--I glared. My other coworker knows me a little better--I'm more or less easy-going and can take a joke, but I really am very businesslike and don't appreciate horseplay. She told him not to joke with me. End of story, but it was the kind of thing where the staring was only because I'm a girl. He wouldn't have got into a guy's face like that--he'd be dropped on his butt! (For that matter, on the right day, I'd drop someone on their butt...)

The second one actually had me kind of scared. I was driving home from work and realized another car was following me. I changed lanes, this car changed lanes. I sped up, they did as well. When I turned, they did as well. I found myself at a stoplight with this car pulled up next to mine (no where to go at a stoplight) and the guy was tapping on his window. My heart was pounding, but he was some middle-aged guy that didn't look dangerous--not that that really means anything. I rolled down my passenger side window, wondering if I was trailing something of my bumper or what--and he said I cut him off and lectured my driving.

Now, this "cut someone off" thing can be subjective. On a crowded highway where everyone is doing seventy and few people let a person even change lanes because everyone is in rush hour mode, it's easy to get pissed at someone. But I didn't see this clown until he was actually following my car. If he says I cut him off--I try to drive defensively and share the road, but I'm sharing it with more drivers than just him and actually have to get to my destination, so I'm not exactly sure what his issue with me was.

But my issue is--I doubt he'd have torn after a man and lectured his driving as if he were talking to a small child. I said "Sorry," not especially meaning it and more relieved he wasn't more of a nutjob, and rolled my window back up. I went on my way, but found myself wondering why this person thought he needed to involve himself in that way. I didn't know his intentions, and he actually scared me.

In both cases, I think the people involved didn't recognize how I, as a person, would feel about what they did. If they momentarily put themselves in my place and thought about it, would they have done the same things?

weaker / lower level guys too. but yeah, women are more often targets for this kinda thing. men wonder why women who are in higher positions are tough or, as they prefer to call it "bitches". that's because if you are not putting the fear of you out there to some men, they are basically mutinous, or at least passive agressively undermining you. And it's your fault for not getting them on your team.
Still goes on a great deal in the office.

I dont think ANYONE has a entitlement to be an alpha among human beings.We are not chickens or wolves.We need to grow past domination as a tactic of interaction..That's the problem.