"Nice guys" vs. "assholes" - which do women really want?

We've all heard the sob stories from women who say they can't find anyone decent to date.
"All I want is a nice guy", they complain as they share a desert with their understanding girlfriends.
But time after time, they always go for the asshole, even if there is a nice guy asking them out.
Discuss.

:shrug:

I dislike making love "a game"- in fact, when men have pulled that on me, I really, really get irritated.
I see these things as power struggles, and I have no desire to be involved with them.

One problem is that some women think a man who is cocky is attractive, or they don't distinguish between being confident and being cocky. And cocky usually = asshole. You may not be like that, but its fairly common.

It's more than just an attitude- it's a mindset, how one reacts to situations and difficulties. It's too easy to say a cocky man is confident because you are not seeing him react, so to speak, to different situations.

I would mention that I am a very strong willed and confident in my abilities, but am very shy in social situations. I have been repeatedly overlooked in favor of the cocky version of confidence for as long as I could remember.

Cocky men make me ill. Some women go for them though.

Unfortunately, I don't have the link, but it basically says that while women say they like confident, but not arrogant/cocky men, the reality is that women tend to go for the arrogant/cocky types.

Granted, there are many, many exceptions to this study, but I remember it well from my dating days.

I get a visceral pain in the stomach when I'm around such men. I cannot stand them. They never think they are cocky of course. They just of course assume they are the greatest thing on earth.

Sigh, lord pray for me, 17 years old and 8 months and never been kissed, not once, bah damn it, damn it all.

So you have that advantage. Now you need a little attitude to go with it.

all you gotta do is fuckin piss me off.

I had no idea you were so young. Don't fret. You'll meet a nice young woman soon enough.

I have met quite a few girls I wanna go out with but can't since they either live out of state or are way out of my league.

until you get to be 30

that much is sure. And there is nothing wrong with being young. You have your whole life ahead of you, a world of possibilities.

It takes time for people like us...

I really wish I were an asshole at times. They have all the fun.

And you're right--they DO have all the fun. More fun than they should. :P

now is that so hard? :D

:D.

Never be afraid to stand up to a woman and tell her no
Never be afraid to speak your mind to a woman.

If only I could been more like dad, sure I'd be an alcoholic ass but I would know how to get girls.

when it comes to dealing with women they like. They think that by doing that, the women will find them attractive. But what happens is the women end up not respecting them.
If the nice guys grow more of a backbone, then they won't fall into that trap. It's really not about being an asshole.

You don't need to be an asshole to handle yourself with dignity. Neither men nor women should allow others to mistreat them, but you don't need to act like an asshole to make that clear.

Think of it this way. Playing asshole may help you get into bed with a few women with low self-esteem. But if you want to meet someone great, who will value you as she values herself, she won't tolerate an asshole. It depends on what you're after.

to represent the broad spectrum and generalizations in this matter.

"Asshole" is the word generally used by the self-described "nice guys" when they find themselves dateless time after time.

And "asshole" is the word used by women time after time when they find themselves heartbroken by a man who did not bow to their every demand.

A lot of guys use the "women don't like nice guys" excuse when they have trouble with women. Some of them are just as assholish as the lady killers.

when they first start dating a woman. It's only after he's got her 'hooked' that he starts being an asshole. And by then, some women (those who think they MUST be in a relationship to be 'happy', or those with low self-esteem) are too brainwashed into thinking they love the guy and can change him, so they don't leave when they should.

Bella, who has seen the 'assholes pretending to be nice guys' way too many times in her life. So it makes it doubly hard for the genuinely nice guys, since women are always waiting for the asshole in the nice guy to make his appearance.

Truer words have NEVER been spoken.

I've seen way too many times where women will buy into the "nice guy" act even when there's a stated history of assholedom, aka known cheating. I was told once by my best friend, "Yeah, but he says he's changed, and he's so nice now. I think he's grown up, really!" Uh-huh. Not even three months later, she caught him cheating on her.

and act like something I'm not. I'm a very nice guy, and very caring, considerate, and respectful. Many in the same boat as I was, the nice guys are out there. If you want that type of guy, learn how to identify them, (hint: the quiet guy sitting alone everyone always seems to refer to as wierd or creepy) and break the ice. Most will open up rather quickly once the ice has been broken. If thats the kind of guy you want, then you need to look for them. Its not going to be the guy who comes up to you.

When I try to get girls it ends badly. I have given up on that method. Now I just wait for it to happen. I prefer many months of making sweet love over more frequently occurring meaningless penetrations.

And when you act like you don't want one of our female companions on this big beautiful blue ball they sometimes work hard to prove why you should.

funny > asshole

that would no doubt solve much of the problem.

If you stick to your guns, and are confident enough in your own abilities, you'll get what you want in life. The difference between a real "good" man and an asshole is a matter of degrees--the assholes come on strong right from the beginning, while a good man learns to keep everything in perspective. He's willing to get to know a person before jumping in, mouth first.

If you have sisters, the best thing is to talk to them, because they've likely been through some of it as well. Precluding a sibling, if you have any female friends at school, talk with them. Friends can shed light on a subject without judging the reasons you want the information for.

And, in truth, the real solid relationships come from people who have been around them for years as friends, not those which are based on a fly-by-night experience.

BAH!

But if I'm with a girl and I put my foot down, or don't let her walk all over me, then many times she will call me an "asshole" even though she doesn't mean it in the same sense as if I were a manipulative, abusive asshole.

How high on the list of prioirites is hotness when you decide to ask a woman out? How high is intelligence? How high is emotional maturity?

I'm not into the super model look, I prefer the cute look. I like the girl next door look. I prefer dark hair over blonde. Girls with glasses turn me on. So the girls I go for are considered "cute" rather than "hot".

Intelligence is a very high priority. I need to be able to communicate with her about current events, history, culture, etc.

Emotional maturity is also a priority, but that is something that is harder to judge in the beginning. A girl can come across as being emotionally mature, but then a few weeks or months into a relationship, you will realize that is not the case.

That's not what I asked... I asked how high on the list of priorities a woman's appearance is.

The reason I ask is, if a man's expectations as far as how hot a woman has to be before he'll go out with her are unrealistically high, or if the way she looks is too high up on the list of priorites, then I think they are setting themselves up for disappointment. Same thing holds true for women, only in my experience the women are going for money more often than looks.

From what you've said here, you don't have an unrealistic expectation in as much as hotness is concerned... however you didn't state how high a priority of her cuteness was to you. There are tons of less cute looking women out there who are probably very nice. However some of them might be just as bitter as a lot of the guys on this thread are...

THAT is most womens critical mistake.

where you're coming from. I'm married now, but back in my single days, I really thought the way you do - seemed I was always getting dumped by women, even though I tried hard to be a gentleman, wine, 'em, dine 'em, and show 'em a good time. They always seemed to prefer the assholes and control freaks, you know - "Donny, hit me again, beat me black an blue - oh, you're such a macho man" - it infuriated me, and I almost gave up on dating until I met my wife (coming up on 25 years of marriage, I was lucky to meet her). I always felt that any man who'd hit a woman was a candy ass, but go figure.

I don't know any women who would allow a guy to hit her

I can assure you, I met quite a few like that. Matter of fact, my wife was abused in a previous relationship before she met me, but at least she had the courage to get out of it. I've seen women go right back for more of the same. I'll never understand, never.

and think that is what they deserve

No woman wants a man to hit her again. Battered women find themselves in relationships that involve volatile swings of emotion, from intense passion to violence. They seek the connection they identity with love. None of them want the violence.
This really is an entirely different issue from the generic asshole-nice guy dichotomy.

Its a far too common occurance than some may thing. Also, its not always confined to physical abuse, and many times go hand-in-hand with mental abuse as well. The thing most of these types of guys try to do right of the bat is to destroy a womans self-esteem and create a atmosphere of dependance. Telling them thier fat, thier ugly, that they are lucky to have gotten someone at all. All to many eventually buy into it.

I don't think its about women liking to be mistreated....men suffer from the same thing in that the more a woman resists, the more they want her....I think that is the phenomenon going on with women who like 'creeps' or 'assholes' as you call them.....the more they treat them like shit...the more determined the woman is to make him love her so much he'll reform and become prince charming. I think its crap myself....I'm valuabe and worthwhile and I don't have time to fix something I didn't break....nor do I have the inclination to do so.

I know a lot of girls who pick a guy they're attracted to, regardless of their attitude, and then try to mold them. For guys who are already nice, there's no challenge in that. No craftmenship.

and probably incredibly charming.

and be an asshole.

good one.

They start wondering why you don't think they're all that, and devote a lot of effort to trying to get your attention. I'm not reccomending it, but it does seem to do something.

Good luck with that.

:loveya:

But yes, in the mean time the assholes get to have all the fun sleeping around. Then they want to settle down with the nice guys. Or they settle down with the nice guy and cheat on him with the assholes.

Most of my girlfriends want nothing to do with "asshole" guys (myself included).
I don't doubt there are women like that, but I dislike these generalizations....

they always involve generalizations.

I think that's where most relationship problems arise from; your assumptions that you operate on are based on gender generalizations that may not hold true for the individual, IMO.

I don't evaluate women on an individual basis at all. ;)

You'd be suprised on how many men I date go "Oh...you're a feminist?"
and that's it...
ARRGHH!!

where?

Well, I'm not like that because I'm a nice guy but sometimes I pretend to be a bad boy to get women.

Seriously, please, it'd make my life (and other AWESOME chicks) a whole lot easier if you didn't play a role to get us...just be you. :)

So its bad if a woman ends up with a nice guy? All I'm talking about is not shaving for a few days and wearing a leather jacket. It works wonders.

:shrug:
I LOVE nice guys- I love geeks, nerds, and shy boys. Being a nice guy is what I LOOK for!

Did I hear my name?

are the nice exceptoin to the rule.

that I should "be a woman" with him instead, like one precluded the other. That was a deal breaker.

A lot of those guys tend to be assholes, so they take what they can get as far as getting someone who makes life what he wants it to be. If a guy had all that initiative but wasn't so much of an asshole, I think they'd prefer that, but like I said, they take what they can get.

That's it precisely. But don't tell my gutless "niceguy" friends that, because believing women prefer assholes means they don't have to grow a pair.

*sigh*

Women love nice. However gutless is not a synonym for nice.

I can't begin to count the number of such tales I have personally endured. I'd be glad to share when it's not so late and I have more time to devote to the topic. It's really a sickness going around these days.

At least, I do. When I'm in a relationship, I want that guy to be my good friend as well as my lover. And I don't make friends with assholes.

All of my friends are the same way. But we're all still in college, and maybe we aren't dealing with that stereotype as much? :shrug:

Then, the guys turn into assholes. Then, the women start hating them.

B-)

Most men who call themselves "nice guys" aren't nice at all. They usually have some serious issues that make them "undateable" to most women. Maybe they're only interested in women who are totally out of their league. Or they have a personality that drives people away (very nasty, rude, whiney or constantly complaining). They're extremely passive "doormats" with no social skills. They have problems with personal hygiene or grooming. They can't carry on an intelligent conversation. They are unemployed, live in their parents' basement and are doing nothing to improve their situation. They're alcoholics or drug addicts. You get the idea. Their problems with women have nothing to do with being "nice."

We have a winner here!

Finally, some common fucking sense!

However, I was what I would call a "nice guy" and did not suffer any of your problems. Nor did I need to "grow a pair". I was not an alcoholic, did not have a personal hygiene problem, and although I'm slightly overweight, am not a terribly horrible looking person. In fact, I had some decent success obtaining dates, and even then, had no problem on said dates.

Without fail, I would run into the same wall. It would be some form or combination of "I'm not good enough for you", "you must be too good to be true", or flat out "you're too nice". You can either blame it on self-esteem or as it has been stated earlier, the "waiting for the other shoe to drop" syndrome, but it was the truth.

I have found a wonderful woman, and not surprisingly, she carries many of the characteristics some of the women who are object share: strong willed/minded, feminist, and has a strong sense of her own value. Unfortunately, I have reason to believe women like you are very much in the minority. You should be very proud of yourselves that you understand the value of having a man that will treat you properly, but realize you are the exceptions, not the rule.

Nice guys who really are nice, and have their own mind and aren't afraid to share it, and aren't addicted to something, etc...

If you wanted to start a thread that said "Most people regardless of gender are spineless shills", I'd be the first one in line backing you up. But this is about girls going after assholes, and unfortunately, while a stereotype, it does have a root in some truth.

There's no doubt truth to what you say as well. I'll never dispute that. But saying this thread is bullshit isn't necessarily fair. I don't dispute what Starlight says. I know a lot, probably most, of the nice guys are exactly as she describes, but even when you get past those and to guys like me, the original statement holds true.

The sad truth is it's hard to find people with both feet on the ground, regardless of gender. Women suck, men blow. A few of us defy the odds, and I know how lucky I am that I found a woman that does.

This thread is bullshit. It attempts to characterize women as a homogenous mass.

That's fucking bullshit, no matter how you choose to slice it.

I fail to see any demonic intentions behind it though, just some general lamenting. So let's not demonize the boy here.

You are right to call bullshit though, this is true. However, I don't think it's an accurate depiction either to portray the opposite of the original view as true either, as that assuredly is not. Nor would it be accurate to exempt men being assholes from the discussion.

So let's get down to a non-bullshit statement for this thread:

There are quite a few women who wind up dating assholes instead of nice guys.
There are quite a few men who are assholes, and there are quite a few nice guys that are not worth dating for other reasons.
There exists a minority of men and women who do not fit any of the above.
Bottomline: most people, regardless of gender, suck and don't have any clue what they're doing, but there are a few who do not.

There's a generalization-free, non gender specific statement for you. I personally think this cuts to the heart of the matter (actually, I think it cuts to the heart of MOST matters).

Heh... I'm a nitpicky bitch, aren't I? ;)

:evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin:

KIDDING!!! Come here! :hug:

:hug:

...for the part about alcoholics or drug addicts. Those types seldom see themselves in the classic "nice-guy" role that this thread is about, at least from my observations.

would you consider someone who smokes pot to be a "drug-addict"?
would you consider someone who is shy to be a doormat with "no social skills"?
would you consider someone who tends to have differing opinions than you to be "constantly complaining"?
would you consider someone who spent most of thier life gainfully employed but is stricken by a bad economy and hard to find decent jobs "undateable"
would you consider someone who has bad teeth because of a medical condition to have "bad personal hygiene"?
would you even spend half a minute getting to know someone well enough to find out ANY of this if you only saw the outside superficial aspects of any of the traits which you obviously find repulsive?
and they say that men are superficial...

Drug addict: someone who lives in the drug culture

No social skills: Most shy men are able to carry on a decent conversation if you make them feel comfortable.

Constantly complaining: No, that means "constantly complaining," as in "thinks that complaining about everything makes him important."

Undateable: Personally, I don't judge a man by his occupation. One of the great crushes of my life was a free-lance musician who never finished college. (He was also deeply closeted gay, which was why nothing ever happened.)

Bad personal hygiene: You can smell him (not his aftershave, but him) three feet away, his hair is visibly greasy, and he claims that "he's too busy to take a shower."

Someone who uses any substance or enjoys any ACTIVITY every so often, or even every night, I don't think would necessarily be considered an addict. However you can't make blanket statements. Does the person obsess about it when they don't have / can't do it? Do they ignore friends, family, or obligations to procure / use / take part in it? These are the kinds of things that will determine whether the person is an addict. As my response should allude to... people can be addicted to many things, not just drugs.

Someone who is shy is necessarily lacking in social skills. I think that's fine, and that by and large many women would consider it fine (I even consider it a bonus)... however things like not knowing when to not talk about the ex, not knowing when to not give your opinion (e.g. gee, your mom's fat!), and that sort of thing are more of the sort of example of a lack of social skill that women would find offputting.

How the person verbalizes their differing opinions would define whether they were sharing their opinion or constantly complaining. Telling the person once, or when the situation arises, is not constantly complaining. Telling the person over and over and over again regardless of how the other person feels, and in random situations, for no reason at all except it popped into their head, is constantly complaining.

I hope you really didn't mean to ask that question about jobs. There are of course many people who've been unemployed for long periods of time... however we all know what the poster above was alluding to. There are people, I'm sure we've all known them, who won't stay in one job for very long, and seem to prefer being unemployed. Those are the turn-offs... not those who've spent most of their life not being the lazy bum type.

As for bad teeth... I can't speak for anyone else... but as for me... that's a bit scary. I'd have to really trust that person, as I've learned that bad teeth can be a result of meth use, let alone bad hygiene. With the way that many people of both sexes seem to be these days, I wouldn't be surprised at all if this was a deal breaker from the outset. However I would hope that if someone with bad teeth, or any other unpleasant physical characteristic, found someone that shared similar interests and hangups and neuroses and whatever... that the surface issues wouldn't matter at all.

I'm such a fucking romantic. :P

Keep in mind that most adult women (I'm not talking about teenagers) are interested in a long term relationship or marriage and look at potential dates from that perspective. Would they be proud to introduce this man to their family & friends? What about his family? Would she want to be tied to them for the next 50 years? Does this man have the skills & resources to support her or at least to pull his own weight in a relationship? Would he be a good father? Does he want children? Can he negotiate a good price on a new car? How's his credit? What kind of job skills & education does he have? What are his goals? How motivated is he to improve himself?

Sometimes, when you look at it from this perspective, the "jerk" looks far better than the "nice guy."

The nice guy doesn't ask them out, or if he does it's a just-friends sort of thing. After months of hanging out and no sexual advances, they hook up with some random other dude who actually, like, hits on them. Seen that too many damn times...

They believe that by being friends first, they will work their way into a sexual relationship with a woman. But once you establish yourself as a friend, you're fucked.
Well, not fucked at all, actually.

Although it later turned out he had designs on me from the beginning, so maybe that doesn't count. Or does it?

Men say women are tough to figure out, but you guys aren't so easy yourselves... :crazy:

Yes there are exceptions, but in most cases, it's a trap that the man -- if he has designs on the women from the beginning -- is almost impossible to escape from.
He becomes the understanding guy who listens to the woman complain about her asshole boyfriend. And when she finally dumps that asshole, she'll find some other guy who never bothered to be her friend first.

It used to happen to me until I instituted my No More Mr. Nice Girl policy. Oh, you just want to be friends? Bye.

At least I get more time to masturbate now...

:eyes:

:eyes:

Stupid move, makes for much heartache.

If so, that might really be the problem for us nice guys.

If I'd done that, I'd have had only one relationship since high school. I'm in my 30s now.

I'm a relatively attractive woman who has never had trouble initiating something with a man (even when I was very young). I'm not even a flirt in general, but I make it pretty unmistakable when I am interested. Sometimes women who aren't afraid to assert themselves can put men off because the men want to feel as though they're in control somehow. More often than not, they seem to find it refreshing, even if they're overwhelmed initially. :D

I'm relatively unattractive, so I've done the initiating except for one time a couple years ago, and that guy was an asshole of the first water.

and show me is interested in me. Even if I'm not attracted to that person, I am flattered.

For a few reasons. One, a lot of men get turned off by women who are assertive, so that works against our making the first move. Also, I've found it just doesn't work. When I was younger I used to ask men out, but they seemed to take it as an open invitation for sex, which it wasn't. Of course, you might rightly point out I was asking out the wrong men. Clearly I was. Still, the lesson I learned was to quit doing it.

from asking the wrong guys, that instead of learing to pick out the right guys, you quit doing it?

Flawed logic I think.

Controlling men (ie assholes) don't like assertive women.
Its a turnoff to them because it means that they are unlikely to be able to control you.

when it comes to my personal life. You get no argument from me there.

Been making this point for years. No one seems to want to listen though and come up with many convienient excuses as to why they don't and continue to complain they keep getting stuck with assholes.

Nice though is complex. Nice is often introspective. Nice is never simple. Nice can even be situationally relative. That's the thing. In terms of how I'd define "nice" is a baseline of confidence, but with a truckload of respect to add to that.

I did the mistake of dating an asshole for about a year who took me out like a goose and tried to lower my self confidence. Big f* mistake. I don't even understand myself why I dated him in the first place since he was below my level. Now I found the right man for me. A nice, intelligent loving man. And I will not trade hime for anything.

aren't all the same and don't all want the same things. I would venture to say that most women want to meet nice guys. And many women do. Some women want to meet nice guys, but aren't good judges of character. Some other women want to meet nice guys, but are drawn to assholes because of self-esteem or a host of other issues. And still some other women just aren't very nice themselves and would rather date an asshole who has money than a nice guy who doesn't. So how can you generalize?

The other side of the coin is this: for every time "we've all heard the sob stories from women who say they can't find anyone decent to date..." we've probably also heard about guys (who aren't always perfect themselves) who only go after shallow, vain super-model types and complain about getting rejected while they ignore the more average "nice girls" all around them.

But what do I know? I'm just a nice girl who married a nice guy.

You summed up the whole situation.

That's nice of you to say so.

And I think I hit a nerve with some women by asking it.
But it's a theme I've been hearing my whole life, which is why I asked for a discussion.
I've personally and fortunately reached an age where I've learned to be myself around women, which turns just as many women on as it turns women off.

How many times have you seen desperate women posting threads about why men want good looking bitches instead of nice average-looking women?

How many? I'd like to know.

Really.

Seriously.

want good looking bitches instead of nice average-looking woman. And I don't ever remember seeing a thread that asked what I had asked.

I started this thread as a result of a conversation that started in another thread, which got locked because it was a "sex thread".
It had to do with one of our younger DUers who like many teenagers, was confusd about what the other sex wanted.

It's old. REALLY old.

I'm beginning to suspect that a lot of guys just plain don't like thinking. This shit really ain't that complicated.

Why are you so angry about this thread?

I'm actually going to bookmark this thread in anticipation of the next occurrence in order to save time.

because at least once a month, someone posts a thread complaining about how LS has always been a freeper, racist band.

these threads get started, and half the guys state their belief that most women go for jerks. It's fucking insulting!

How would you like to see threads in which most of the liberal, progressive, women here asserted that most men go for attractive, mean, shallow women rather than smart, sensible, average looking women?

Statements such as these really do imply that the person posting it has a pretty low opinion of the other sex.

Do you really, seriously believe that by and large, women are all the same, and they really do go for assholes rather than nice guys?

If the answer is yes... well, I won't say you're a woman hater per se, but I will say that -- if the above is accurate -- then IMO, you do have a low opinion of women, yes.

Or does not come across as marching completely in tune with the women on this board, he is automatically labeled a "sexist" or a women-hater or whatever.
The words I used, "asshole" and "nice guys" are the words most commonly associated with this topic, yet most men who are considered assholes are not necessarily assholes. They just tend to be more confident, outspoken, etc. But they are also the ones who will end up breaking a women's heart for whatever reasons, including the fact that he is not as much into her as she is into him.

He can be an obvious player, but many women fail to see the signs, or if they do, they believe they can convert him..

And the nice guys who are always complaining that they can't get none many times have issues of their own that they fail to acknowledge. And they might not be players, but they simply lack the confidence that women find attractive.

So yes, call me what you will, but I do believe many women go for the wrong type of man. Just as many men go for the wrong type of women -- especially in the younger age groups.

I believe many young men who fall into the nice guy trap can become more successful with women by growing a pair of balls.

In other words, don't settle for friendship if you really want to make her your girlfriend. Don't bow down to her every demand if you really want her to view you as boyfriend material. And don't be afraid to walk up to her and tell you are attracted to her and would like to take her out.

that every time a guy on DU questions a woman's actions, that he is labeled as a sexist or woman-hater. That's just ridiculous.

However, I did want to say that, IMO at least, players are in fact necessarily assholes. Yes indeedly do. Not sure how else you meant to characterize men as assholes.

See... you said 'many'. If only you'd thought to be so careful with your words in the OP...

People are individuals. Yes, many women are shallow and not so bright. Many men are, as well. Stop the presses!

That I wouldn't have to spell out each word because it is an obvious generalization. That is why the words were in quotes.

Words are important. How we phrase things says things about how we think. I'd even go so far as to say that the more intelligent the audience, the more careful one has to be with one's words, because every little thing will be more likely to get noticed by a more intelligent audience.

Men are very superficial. in general, men are visually stimulated while, in general, most women are more emotionally stimulated. that is, in its most general and simplistic terms, the major differance between men and women.

coming onto DU that haven't been here for years and been thru this topic 100 times. If you don't like the thread topic. Then why post in it?

I hate that it pops up so often... because it reaffirms my suspicions about people being more and more disconnected from each other... and less and less willing to think for themselves... and less and less willing to judge each individual AS AN INDIVIDUAL.

So it's not like I'm attacking an MJ thread... those I feel free to ignore. This subject, though... this I find important.

and I agree that people have a tendency to look for answers instead of finding it out for themselves. I feel in many cases its not much more than someone venting their frustrations, and probably connected to some recent incident in their lives. It is though, an important subject to many people who are having a hard time finding the right person for them, or even to try to identify what about them is making finding the right person difficult.
This is a classical issue that has been raised time and time again, in many places beyond DU all over the world, for centuries. There is simply a fundamental difference between men and women and the way we see the world, and how we understand it. We may never truly see eye to eye and never really know what it's like to have the shoe on the other foot. But the fact that we still strive to understand and reach out is always a good thing as long as you come to the table with an open mind and willing to put aside assumptions.

I fail to understand why people won't just check their baggage at the exit when they leave a relationship.

Everyone is different! Everyone... why don't people get this? I mean, sure... there are stereotypes that serve to protect us... as in... a guy cheats on his wife or girlfriend is pretty much guaranteed to do it again. That makes sense... that generaltiy serves to protect us. But so many carry around stereotypes or bitterness from past experience that *doesn't* protect them... it only limits them, if not outright prevents them from experiencing happiness with anyone else.

It's fucking sad.

I doubt we can ever really see eye-to-eye, as long as society raises men to be cold and emotionless. Women have pretty much been freed from being raised as doormats. Now we need to free men from being raised as 'big-boys-don't-cry' studs.

It's interesting... 20/20 did a program in which mothers of sensitive sons were asked why they were instructing their sons to stop displaying characteristics that their future wives / partners would APPRECIATE. They answered that they honestly didn't know. They said that on the one hand, they understood that they were making their future relationships more difficult... but that on the other hand, they didn't want their sons viewed as 'sissies'.

Sad, sad, sad...

I would really be interested to know exactly what characteristics are really nature or nurture.

by the original question is whether you see it as one or whether you see it as a fundamental truth. Maybe if you had worded differently, e.g. "I know this is a generalization but...," that would've been more apparent. Either way, my answer is the same but I wouldn't ask the question "how can you generalize?"

Asshole - Never. If you don't treat me right, I'm out of there. If you don't treat other people right, I'm out of there.

Nice - What is nice? If you mean considerate, respectful and decent then I'm all in favour of 'nice'. If you mean doormat, indecisive and cloying then 'nice' doesn't cut it.

Be an interesting person. Be able to hold a conversation. Make me laugh. Keep me reading the book.

I don't want the whole story to be on the first page. I want a book I can't put down.

Let's face it - there are a lot of boring people out there. Their worlds are small. They don't think about things. I want someone who I can be in a car with for 15 hours and not run out of things to say.

Eventually, the mystery is going to disappear. My dad can tell who my mom is talking to on the phone just by the tone of her voice. I think you go from discovering the mysteries to appreciating them.

The whipped puppy act--complaining about those evil women--gets old fast. (& I'm sure women complaining about men is equally boring.)

Smart & funny are much better.

We're not all beauties, and the girls who might respond to a nice guy may not be hanging out in bars.

But hey, everyone has their own priorities.

my lifetime. ANYONE who goes to bars looking for love is bound for disappointment. period.

every time

except when they go for the nice guy

Some women get smarter at an early age. Almost all of us figure it out by the time we're 35.

i have never been in or known of any situation like this.

maybe you just think those guys are assholes but they really aren't. especially not when it comes to the relationship with their girlfriends.

then he'd be ok for that.

But if I want an actual relationship, then nice guys who are good in bed are my first choice.

But I'm very happily married right now to a nice guy who is good in bed ... so I got no worries!

after we were done and just shooting the shit at a bar:

"You know, for an asshole, you are a pretty nice guy."

I think I know what she is saying. It could be that I really know how to charm and have genuine interests in being good and helping others.....but.....I cannot resist the temptations of beautiful women.

I am always a gentleman, but I definitely have a backbone....sometimes too much of a backbone - and I will not give in at all. I definitely have dated many of the "wrong" types of women.....last one I took to Vegas with me....she kept asking for money to gamble with and when I was up $3000 she asked me to buy her a ring. I told her no money for gambling because she sucks at it and will lose it all (she does have a problem with gambling actually) and no ring because her boyfriend back in LA would not approve :P

She behaved like a child when she would not get her way. When we were on our way to a friend's party (still in Vegas), I asked her to drop me off and told her to go back to LA (Long story, but she pissed me off and I just wanted to enjoy my friends without her)...I will get a ride from friends. OMG!!!!!! You should have seen her face! "DON'T EVER CALL ME AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

LOL

I get home to LA.....3 days later she calls me apologizing and pleading for forgiveness....she never got it....what a pain in the ass she was.

She was really superhot though and damn good in the sack......but that me me me me me me personality of hers was a huge turn off.

This is kind of an extreme example, but with normal women, one should also stand their ground when they know they are right. It earns respect as opposed to contempt.

I'm sure she is used to acting like the child and then being forgiven for it after she apologizes cause she is so hot.

And, of course, for you to actually put your foot down, makes you that much more appealing to her, as opposed to the "nice guy" who would have forgiven everything, flown her back to Vegas and bought her that damn ring.

"She was really superhot though and damn good in the sack"

Geez... and then you wonder why all the trouble...

PRIORITIES, FELLAS!

:eyes:

but the assholes usually approach me first, parading as nice guys. It comes out somewhere around the second month.

was abusive. The others enjoyed cheating.

:hug:

I would rather be alone sometimes than go back to some of the previous situations.

not as bad as the ones you had to deal with, but I had enough with him.

I have met some nice guys but all I can now think is "What's the catch? When does he turn?"

it gave me scars also. But I got lucky with my now bf. He has brothers :) In a bit more than a month it will be a year we are together.

:hug:

But, I was in a relationship when I was VERY YOUNG with someone I now recognize as a total Asshole. I was totally smitten and in love, and certain he was the One for Me. So I tried too hard to make it work, when I should have just walked away. Now I know better!

I got the impression when I was dating that younger women liked "bad boys" (who were often assholes) but seemed to grow out of it as they got old. Just my experience and I'm not claiming any sort of scientific basis for this.

nine times out of ten when they're young. They typically look for the caveman / Neanderthal. As they grow older, they realize that the caveman isn't exactly the best choice to spend the rest of their life with, so they start looking for nice, obedient guys with stable jobs and good credit who'll put food on the table, be responsible dads, share in the household chores and ask for absolutely nothing in return. If they don't get such a man (for obvious reasons), they sit and whine and moan about how all the 'good men are gay or taken'

Good luck with that.

Oh, and welcome to DU.

:hi:

I'm not bitter, let's just say I'm experienced :-)

However, I hope you aren't going to let your experience completely prevent you from being open to new people and experiences. Each individual is unique.

"so they start looking for nice, obedient guys with stable jobs and good credit who'll put food on the table, be responsible dads, share in the household chores and ask for absolutely nothing in return"

I find that the above looks like a recipe for disaster. True, most of it is great... however, 'obedient' and 'asks for nothing in return' are red flags!

We've all the heard the sob stories from guys who say they can't find a girl. "I'm such a nice guy," they complain, as they bash women for their supposed stupidity to their buddies at the bar or online. But time after time, women turn them down, and they don't get the clue that maybe they aren't as "nice" as they think. Discuss.

My last relationship was an asshole except she wasn't upfront about it, she was very secretive about it. When I finally caught her in her lies she got MAD AT ME over it. How the hell did I ever fall for her? She was everything I detest in a human.

Okay, I'll be frank but perhaps a bit insulting, so maybe you guys will get it this time.

Point #1: Immature women go through a stage (which may last their whole lives, if they're really immature) of seeking thrills with the "bad boys." Some, like me, never go through that stage, but it is a stage, and unfortunately, it tends to coincide with the age at which men are attracted to manipulative, cynical shrews who happen to look like Baywatch characters. It's the age at which males are so immature that they'll say things like, "I only go for blondes" or "I only go for big boobs" or "I only go for Latin women." Or whatever their physical fetish happens to be.

A few months ago, a young male poster wondered why a "gorgeous" woman he saw in the supermarket was in the company of an obvious jerk. My response was that perhaps she was a "jerkette," a thought that probably never occurred to the OP.

Point #2: You guys are ignoring the women who aren't attracted to bad boys. You think they're not "sexy" enough (i.e. they're mentally stable and don't play the femme fatale games or they don't fit your physical fetish of being blond or brunette or thin or bosomy or whatever). They're "like kissing your sister." They're "toad faces" (to use a term one of my brothers used in his college days). They don't have perfect bodies. Many of these women may be agonizingly attracted to you, but if you find out that they're attracted to you, you make fun of them, because you're embarrassed to be associated with any woman who doesn't fit your dream image.

Point #3: When women say they want a "nice" guy, they mean more than someone who isn't mean to them. Okay? This is the big thing that men don't get. If all a woman wants is to not be beaten up and cheated on, then she can get that by being alone. What do you have to offer that is positive?

What kind of mental and emotional connection do you make with women? Are you so narrowly focused on "guy stuff" that you can't relate to anything that's not sports or mechanical objects? Is your sense of humor stuck on the poopy joke level? Do have this hang-up about "real men don't..."? Do you go around like a whipped puppy, sending out vibes of "someeone please love me," which is guaranteed to drive the women away?

Point #4: The older you get, the more women will be burned out on the bad boys and prefer you.

Point #5: Since I don't know you, you need to consult a platonic female friend about how you come across to women. I can't emphasize this enough.

Good post :toast:

{i]it tends to coincide with the age at which men are attracted to manipulative, cynical shrews who happen to look like Baywatch characters. It's the age at which males are so immature that they'll say things like, "I only go for blondes" or "I only go for big boobs" or "I only go for Latin women." This breaks down what I meant about "I've seen it the other way around."

This thread was actually started as a result of a conversation that started in another thread, which got locked because it was a "sex thread".
It had to do with one of our younger DUers who like many teenagers, was confusd about what the other sex wanted.
I wasn't asking on my behalf because fortunately, I've never suffered from the "nice guy" syndrome although I've seen it happen with many of my friends. In fact, when I was younger, I was considered more of a "bad boy".

But anyway, I agree with every thing you said in your post. It has a lot to do with immaturity in both sexes.

but I want a nice guy.

but I don't want a wuss. There are a lot of "good guys" out there with absolutely NO personalities whatsoever, and if those were the only ones looking for companionship (they're not the only ones but sometimes it seems like they are), then most women would choose the "bad boy" simply because they want someone who is willing to "be" someone, rather than a milquetoast. It's not as fine a line as some think, but it's part of the reason "bad boys" get the attention. Nothing is worse (to many/most of us) than a guy who gets sand kicked in his face everytime he moves, without defending himself in some way--and that "way" doesn't have to be with a gun or a fist--clever repartee is a welcome choice as well.

GAWD DAMN but I'm sick of this shit!

Hot Bitches or Nice Average-Looking Ladies, which do men really want?

:eyes:

:puke:

Like you

*sigh*

Please don't take me so seriously.

appearance rather than substance. for many men, this is a key problem is that they typically want a woman that is above reality.

without sounding too judgmental. :)

I can judge them.

:P

Men who claim they want to meet nice women but always end up with bitches?

I made that point earlier. I've seen a nice guy find a very attractive female who ends up direspecting him. He ends up feeling like it is his fault, tries to improve himself only to be hurt again. The pattern repeats itself until he is smart enough to realize he would be better off without her. I know because I've done it.

Is there a pattern here?

Honestly...

Not saying all attractive women are assholes but I've seen alot of men for those who really aren't so attractive on the inside. Same thing I've seen with males, I've heard women go on about how their new boyfriend is so damn sexy who ends up being asshole. I've seen it both ways too many times, what people need to do is look way past initial physical attraction to find someone who will make them feel truly happy on the inside.

A lot of people seem to have totally fucked up priorities, women AND men. Not only with respect to dating choices, either... but that's a subject for another thread.

As for women, maybe they aren't going for the guy's personality when they pick assholes... maybe they're inspecting the bulge... maybe they're checking out his shoes / wallet / car... who knows... but one think you can be assured of, they're NOT going for the asshole for the sake of being with an asshole.

I joke about having a thing for assholes. What I really mean is a smartass... someone with a sense of humor. But honestly, even THAT's not so high on my list. Highest on MY list is INTELLIGENCE. Everything else... and I mean EVERYTHING... comes after that.

So... sorry to rant... but this convo gets soooooooo old. I would get just as ranty if women started incessant threads begging the question of whether guys wanted hot bitches or nice average looking laides.

Were on the same page here. Just a little confusion that's all :hi:

"but one think you can be assured of, they're NOT going for the asshole for the sake of being with an asshole."

Well, when I was younger, the women I was most serious with in college up through my ex-wife ended up not treating me very nicely and I tended to blame myself. I finally got set straight by a woman I met right after my now ex-wife filed for divorce, as she was going through a similar situation the opposite way. As I was telling her my story, she really opened my eyes by telling me that I had really been putting up with a lot of BS from my ex... and, after looking back, I realized I could say that I put everything I had into that marriage, and my ex-wife could not say the same thing.

I could say the same thing about my last ex. I put everything I possibly could into that relationship but she put in a half-assed effort, it all ended once I realized that no matter what I could do she would always be the same. Funny, she always tried to make me feel like I was the one making the relationship difficult and why things weren't working out when it was actually her.

Not with me, as I've always been attracted to a certain personality type - smart, outgoing, strong-willed, energetic - though, I've gone through stages of being attracted to certain physical types... but, the women I've dated more than once have all had the type of personality that I liked no matter if they were tall or short; or white, black, Asian or Hispanic; or slim, medium or voluptuous; etc, etc.

Sorry, I've seen literally dozens of cases where women have taken the asshole over a decent nice guy. Maybe they don't actively try to find the asshole, but I think there's a natural tendency to go with the bad guy, for whatever masochistic reasons.

who got angry with me for leaving him alone in an aisle in the grocery store. He stomped out of the store and fumed in the car. My best friend and I now laugh about that until we have tears rolling down our faces.(sigh) I was young and didn't know much better at the time. After being with him I started dating men, not men who acted like spoiled little boys. And I am now married to a truly nice guy. When you change how you view yourself (positively) in relation to others in a relationship, it changes everything.

I knew a guy that didn't want to date a woman anymore after he decided he didn't like the way she shifted her car when she drove...
needless to say, this guy is still single at 38.

He has similar stories about other women, too. Not quite so extreme, but similar.

Truly, before the internet, I would not have believed that such people existed. Now however, due to my experience on discussion boards, I'm no longer shocked by stories of people with cartoonishly overblown character flaws; there are just alot more freaks than I ever would have imagined.

Just kidding! I just said that to earn some points with the broads.


Chicks dig jerks. (like me)

Guys like jerky, stupid women, too. They'll take a physically attractive woman over an obvious soul mate in a freakin heartbeat.

With women, the guys you classify as "assholes" usually are physically more attractive than the nice guys, that's why they feel they can be arrogant twunts. What the guys here are doing is punishing women for thinking along the same surface-oriented lines as men do.

women are just as superficial about looks as men are, which is something they never admit.

But that is the topic for tomorrow's controversial thread.

Even more glittering generalities!

Thank goodness the practice of juding entire groups of people as homogenous entities... and shallow ones at that... is so successful. Otherwise people might stop doing it! :o

use the word fuckstick before...i thought i was the only one :shrug:

For years, I gravitated to the "jerks" while there were "nice guys" waiting in the wings for me to come to my senses. I kept on running after "jerks", and later regretted that a couple of those "nice guys" got tired of waiting for me and moved on.

When you're young, you're often looking for pulse-racing excitement. Being kept constantly on edge is thrilling. Wild extremes of emotion are the signs that it must be "love." The so-called "nice guys" don't offer that kind of heart-pounding thrill.

As we get older, we begin to realize that constant ups and downs and worrying and being treated like a doormat are not signs of "love." We beging seeking out people who don't want us to live on edge.

I used to go for those jerks. But I married a nice guy.

I had a recent mini-relationship crisis, and with some advice from the lounge . . . the tables have turned. I've got a second date tonight, and I think it's going to be something else. :D

not "asshole" necessarily, but a confident guy who can stand up for themselves and do manly things - but also be able to be tender with her, and (if they want children) be a good father who isn't afraid to change a diaper or do the dishes.

How does that even end up anywhere close to the "asshole" side of the equation in discussions like this one?

I mean if anything, "confident" generally precludes "asshole", as genuinely confident people don't need to be assholes. I'd even go so far as to say that a lack of confidence is a big part in the making of most (not all) assholes.

I think we (men & women) are often lousy judges of character, but not out of our innocence, rather out of our shallowness.

confident women are often seen as bitches.

BUT, my thought was that i personally think the true term of asshole here is not something anyone really wants - i was just saying what we DO want. characteristics of strength and compassion...neither meek and nice NOR a creepy asshole.

i'm sorry, i realize i wasn't very clear.

As I've been saying throughout the post, the words "asshole" and "nice guy" were put in quoation marks because that is the words people use to describe the men in these situations.

But a "nice guy" could also means shy, timid, socially ackward, non-confrontational, spineless and boring.

And an "asshole" doesn't necessarily mean he is abusive, but it could mean he is confident, outgoing, exciting and flirtatious. Many times, these are men who have learned to use their charm and looks to pick up women.

Many of these men don't even have to lie or mislead women about long-term relationships, they're pretty clear about what they want from the beginning, whether it's a one-night stand or a short-term fling.

But despite all the evidence, many women feel they can win them over anyway and wind up with a broken heart.
And even after realizing in hindsight that the signs were always there, that he was never going to commit to her, they will find themselves repeating this pattern with other men.

After all, many women, especially younger women, like men who are a challenge.

And that is where the "nice guys" fail because they're willing to give a woman whatever she wants, whenever she wants, from day one.

On the first date, hey are indecisive about where to take a woman, so they ask her where she wants to go, instead of already having the date planned.

That is what they think makes them a good catch. They are giving the woman what they think she wants, which is why they call themselves "nice guys".


So I think you were clear when you said that most women want the excitement of the charmer or the "asshole", but the stability of the "nice guy".

What always happens in discussions like these is that our word definitions get sloppy (and suddenly "nice guy" means "any guy who doesn't hit women, but then again isn't given much chance to hit women, since he's unattractive for other reasons", lol)

I think it does cut both way, and just like men who are assholes are very unlikely (imo) to be truly confident, women who are bitches are only acting confident (and probably have even fewer acting tools in their emotional tookit than men to do so!).

But take me with a grain of salt, as I'm someone who thinks that nice guys always win, and fuck anyone who disagrees. :P

Same thing for guys who seek asshole women. Some people like the thrill of an overly dramatic relationship, the "pursue and conquer" aspects that never end give them a thrill that certainty would not. I've been there (but not for years now).

All that drama can be tremendously stimulating, the endless power struggles and etc. But it gets old, too. Real old. Especially if you are looking long-term.

in reference to Gloria Estefan, "I bet she's a bitch on wheels." And he said it with admiration, as if that was a good thing.

Go figure.

But I think she is genuinely a good person

the idea of finding a "bitchy-looking" attitude appealing puzzled me. I think that a lot of immature men see the bitchiness (chronic anger) and imagine other kinds of passionate emotions going with it.

I might say of a man, "He looks like a conceited, arrogant asshole," but I'd never think of it as a point in his favor.

I could never keep my lists straight! LOL. Do y'all use PDAs or laptops or something to keep the lists? ROFL!

Because it was VERY HOT when I finally caught them! But man, that wears you out, and it is not a basis for long-term cuz she's gonna be calculating and looking at all the other available males and seeing if any of them would like to get in the running to replace ya. Plus, she will look even when she's with you, just to let you know you can be replaced!

I went through that a couple-three times, decided cuckold was not where I wanted to be in a relationship! LOL. So I finally got that through my head, that finding someone to be a friend first might make a more lasting bond. MAN AM I EVER GLAD I DID!

Actually, after I found the woman who was to become my wife, one of the calculators I had pursued before tried to use sex to lure me away from her (just for the sake of doing it, I am sure). And this bitch (an appropriate term here) WAS MARRIED to someone when she made her attempt! LOL...I demurred.

Fool me once, etc., don't ya know! LOL.

Because really.... the stereotypical "nice" guys tend to be shy guys with a certain degree of timidity that keeps them from acting like boorish animals. Guys that call themselves nice, but are really cocky assholes, are generally far from shy, and far from nice.

Just an observation.

Oh yeah.... and I like the shy guys. :)

Hey come on, there is some middle ground here. Its been my observation that guys who are nice--AND dynamic, passionate about their lives, good communicators,etc.--have no shortage of dates. Maybe the nice guy who isn't getting dates should look at some of his attributes besides his "niceness." Is he a downer to be with? Is he mistaking passivity and lack of self-respect for "niceness"

Its true I used to go for assholes in my adolescencebut that was before a ton of therapy and gaining enough maturity to realize that I wanted a true love relationship, not a re-enactment of the struggle to get my abusive daddy's love.

BTW, back in my wild youth Ive also had guys tell me that my aloofness turned them on, so it does go both ways. Its the thrill of the hunt, and underneath that-- the need to act out the continuing of the struggle for mommy's love.

But that was all I thought I deserved.

I've been married for quite a while, but there's no way I'd go for an asshole now. I respect myself too much. I deserve to be treated decently.

Nice guys are better in bed, anyway.