I am offended when you disparage Jesus. Here is why you shouldn't.

I am a believer, and of course it offends me when you mock my faith, which is what you're doing when you make anti-Jesus comments, or use words like "Jeebus." It particularly offends me when you belittle believers and imply, if not state outright, that we'd have to be stupid to believe. (And believe me, 'stupid' is a word that is never used in relation to me.) Since some of you don't care if I, or anyone else, is offended by anything you say, I am not giving that as the reason that you should not be dissing (disrespecting/disparaging) Jesus. My reason follows:

Some folks who are not Christians believe that a man named Jesus lived a life here on earth, but don't believe in his divinity. Others believe the whole story is a "myth." But, I think most of us with progressive political views would agree that the words and deeds ascribed to Jesus are good. He healed people, hung out with the marginalized, helped the poor. He spoke of helping the least among you, feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, visiting the sick and the imprisoned. I'd say these are the kinds of things that progressives generally believe in. So even if you do not believe in Jesus the Christ, I think you can agree that what his life and words represented was good--these were good, liberal values.

As much as they'd like you to think so, the fundies have not copyrighted Jesus. What they represent is select interpretations of the Bible by men who pick and choose the passages they think justify their views. And their views do not appear to be anywhere near Jesus' views. So I feel that your issue is not so much with Jesus as it is with those who push their religious beliefs on you, beliefs that I believe have nothing to do with Jesus. Your battle is with these modern-day Pharisees, not with Jesus. And this is the reason you shouldn't be dissing (disrespecting/disparaging) Jesus. Thank you for listening.

you'd be worshipping that.

I wasn't looking for something/someone to worship when I found Jesus (about 4-5 years ago).

Christianity would have continued, been an underground movement, and surfaced at a later date.

Does it bother you that I believe in following Jesus? Religion aside, it's a great philosophy to live by.

it depends on how you look at what happened in the Bible whether or not you even think Jesus was liberal. Jesus was still only slightly moderate at best compared to the bunch of disgusting superstitious people in the old testament. I don't think he was really a liberal if he even did exist. There is that one comment that really stands out in my mind where he said he came with a sword. That's not liberal at all. And Revelations is exactly what Bush and his followers are trying to create out of thin air as we speak. Revelations turns me away probably as bad as the old testament. Why is it all in there as one religion and as one teaching? You have the old testament on the one hand complete with men having sex with their daughters because they were so homophobic. Not to mention "that shalt not kill" being the rule one second and then kill your son to prove your faith, the next second. Then Jesus for a short short time. Then you get revelations with monsters and bloodshed galore. If you really read the Bible as a whole, you get way more conservative teaching in there than you do liberal. You'd have to work hard to convince me Jesus was a liberal.

"There is that one comment that really stands out in my mind where he said he came with a sword. That's not liberal at all."

How odd, then, that progessives like T.R. and Woodrow Wilson, and liberals like Harry Truman and Lyndon Johnson, are four of the greatest destroyers of the 20th century.

Most liberals I know still subscribe to that "guns n' butter" bullshit. Jesus didn't. Nonviolence was His bridegroom--read the Beatitudes sometime ("the sword" is metaphor).

they are not warped the way the teachings of the bible are

clear on the reincarnation stuff. I'm not sure he means it literally.

'Am reading Karen Armstrong's BUDDHA right now & find it a lot more sensible than most of the New Testament.

More consistent, too.

I tend to believe that the bottom line of all the major religions is pretty much the same: they all have words of wisdom involving good. It's just that they get there in different ways. I have no problem with that. I don't think it's as important HOW you get there as that you DO get there.

And lots of people do good without having to adhere to a cosmology. There are millions of people doing good works for the whole of humanity that have never gone to church or believed in a deity.

My inspiration in this regard is Camus; in my mind, "benign existentialism" promoting a kind of no-strings-attatched altruism is the best kind of guiding philosophy. And I've never believed in a god.

If the bottom line of a religions is to arrive in the same place, why bother taking the journey? I, nor do I assume, you, need the threat of an omnipotent supernatural caregiver/punisher hanging over your head to make sure you behave. I agree that religion can be used to do good; what I have a problem with is the overlay of outdated cosmology.

"Jesus and Buddha as Brothers"? It's a wonderful comparison of Buddha's and Jesus' teachings. Thich Nhat Hanh is a Vietnamese Buddist peace advocate munk. He is banned from Vietnam and has lived 30 years in France. The year Martin Luther King won the Nobel Prize, he nominated Thich Nhat Hanh.

Do good, be good. I think the message is the same in most religions.

I think some of the jokes people make *are* about the phony right-wing fundies and not against Christians in general. I laugh at the jeebus joke in certain contexts, for example, not because I'm laughing at Jesus but at a certain breed of 'Christian' (ie. the hypocrites like those so-called "family" Christian groups that fight to discriminate against gays). I don't know - it depends on how someone is using it...I think sometimes they are making fun of the impostors and not the religion itself.

During the medieval period in Japan, Buddhism was used to justify wars, which is a perversion of Buddhism if anything is.

Another Japanese way of warping Buddhism was that monks were supposed to be celibate, but their rules taken literally forbade only sex with women. So they used to take boys into their monastaries, dress them as girls, and use them sexually.

The intellectual varieties of Buddhism that Westerners read about have not been warped, but throughout history, there have been almost as many permutations of Buddhism as there have been permutations of Christianity. In Japan alone, you have Jodoshu, Jodo Shinshu, Kegon, Zen, Tendai, Nichiren Shoshu, and Shingon, and a few more whose names I don't remember.

nor has it had such effect or power, there will be warping in any religion man creates, christianity is just the worst, and most powerfull

but it's by far the most powerful religion in mainland Southeast Asia, China, Tibet, Mongolia, Sri Lanka, and Japan.

The blast on Buddhism includes a few fragmented truths but gives no overall picture.

Moreover it does not justify th claim that Buddhism is "warped" especially when Christianity is more historically warpable and by far more bloody and relentlessly judgmental and violent.

And that would be "by far" and not " by a nose."

The burning of women as witches, in particular, I think stands out. On a warpability scale, I'd rank that one fairly high. The women who were accused and finally tortured and burned to death might be able to tell us how high on thye warpability scale they'd put it. I bet they don't mention any Buddhists, though.

Overwhelmingly, it is a meditative and serene tradition. Christianity is not.

Believing that Desire is to be rooted out is warped.

Believing that All is Suffering and we must reach enlightenment to hasten our way out of incarnations is warped.

But these two misconceptions are not at the heart of the Spirituality which is expressed in the Esoteric version of ALL Religions.

-- in the subject.

CERTAINLY is what you wrote. How about if another person came along and wrote 'certainly not' to the same subject.

Should your position be regarded as superior because you hold the majority religion, or because you think Buddhism is "warped"?

A member of neither group, my objective view is that suffering is all and that the Buddhist might just have this one right and the Christians might just have this one wrong.

Of course the crucifixion itself suggests that Christianity REQUIRES suffering to define itself.

I now study Qabalah and Yoga.

-- really isn't persuasive. I find Buddhism generally less warped than fundamental Islam or fundamental Christianity, for example.

it being such a great philosophy.

But I don't need to go on about how it's not, so long as others don't need to go on about how it is.

just keep it to yourself and don't try to shove it down my throat. I have no problem with any religions, just the followers that feel the need to convert everyone to their way of thinking.

the man. I can't stand the rest anymore. To be there, you have to let them tell you what to feel and think about Jesus and I love him too much to do that.

I luv your posts, usually -- but did you read the post????

It's not talking about "worship" -- it's talking about the fundamental New Testament principles -- with or WITHOUT the divinity of Jesus.

:::sigh:::

Which is why modern western christianity doesn't resemble what Jesus and the apostles practiced.

Sometimes, I have an issue or two with how Jesus is regarded around here (you did not see the 'Jesus Is Everywhere' video), but I do think most DUers have a basic amount of respect for him for the reasons you describe.

Unfortunately, when everyone's mocking fundies, Jesus gets thrown into that.

...and often, in reacting so quickly to the most recent article, or post, or radio broadcast, we get "lazy" and lose "precision."

I agree that in MANY (but certainly not all), situations, what people here are REALLY dissing is the caricature of Jesus/Christian faith that the "radical right wing" has perpetuated. They shorthand it to "christians."

I agree that in doing so, they perpetuate the very arrogant exclusionism that Dems are **too** often accused of.

I think that the only way to ... "counter" this ... is a thoughtful post every so often .. and maintaining YOUR cool, even when some others don't.

<they perpetuate the very arrogant exclusionism that Dems are **too** often accused of.>

That's a totally unfair accusation (as is just about everything the RWers say), and that attitude does perpetuate it. I get so angry when I hear the Pharisees saying that liberals "hate their God"--that irks me for so many reasons.

It's appreciated.

...might be good (if somewhat exclusionary), the deeds of christians have generally been bad. Christianity has a bloody history-- it's a faith that fosters bigoty and hatred. I've always found that one of the great ironies of christianity-- so many christians point to Jesus's message of tolerance and peace while they oppress, discriminate against, and make make war against damn nearly everyone in his name.

For what it's worth I was raised in a fundamentalist christian family, so I'm speaking from some experience. "Moderate" christians, and the christian left are fond of pointing out that the fundamentalists don't represent them, but they've yet to do much to stop them. I am not impressed by such arguments.

they don't have anywhere near the money of the so-called Christian right. There is also no central organization. There are a whole bunch of small churches who don't know each other in a whole bunch of different denominations; there is no central voice. But there has been some speaking out in recent years.

I belong to a UCC church, which is arguably the most liberal Christian church. We're the ones with the commercial showing bouncers outside a church and saying everyone is welcome in our church; the networks refused to run the ad (but that did give us more publicity). During the Dem convention, there was an interfaith service for peace and justice. There is a group called Catholic Democrats who are quite progressive and fighting the policies of this administration. So with the horror in the current administration, these groups are starting to speak out and act. I'm hoping the different groups can come together to be a stronger force and they can get some money behind them.

The Christians of bad deeds that you speak of are not truly following Jesus. I blame the organized religion and the men who lead it. And it's not just the Christian religion with war for its religion; that's the same thing happening with Islam, as some men justify killing and such supposedly for their religion.

You can't do anything except live a good life. Your faith has a dark side that exploits the worst aspects of human nature. Nothing will change that, at least not in our lifetimes.



You don't need to convince me of that-- you need to convince them. Christianity needs to do some real self-examination. Stop telling the rest of us that the fundies don't represent your faith and start telling THEM.

We're clapping for ya at my house.

Nicely done.

My kids and I are really tired of being told we are going to hell,because we haven't "accepted Jesus as our personal Savior".
That really is my experience with most "Christians".

I'm not saying there aren't people who follow what Jesus actually taught,I just haven't met any of them.

I grew up in a non-religious house and my only real experience with Jesus is being told worship him or go to hell.

who follow the essence of the Good Book.

Materialists and Scientists and Athiests have done some fucked up things too.

I couldn't have made the point any better myself.

work.

The Principles within Christianity are sound.

As A non-Christian I'm supposed to make sure Christians obey their own teachings?

I think I missed something somewhere?

the streets would be clean.

Christianity is a Religion with sound principles that are similar to Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism. The Principles are also similar in essence to Humanism, Naturalism.

The PROBLEM is in how people interpret and act on those principles.

It is up to PEOPLE to do self reflection.

Individuals.

And every single one of us should spend MORE time in self reflection and introspection and less on determining what's wrong with the other guy.

If everyone were more concerned with their salvation and/or enlightenment, then the world's peoples would be much better off.

might be sound, but a good majority of the followers(extreme fundies) are wackos.

claim that his way of doing things is somehow blessed, ordained, or given to him by birthright by some deity though. That's the difference. It's that superiority complex held by most religions that just because they want to do something, by default they have permission. An atheist has to work ten times harder to do ANYTHING because we have to deal with that mentality from people constantly on BOTH extremes of the political spectrum.

You nailed it mike_c. Not only do some of us get preached at by fundies, but we get apologists who seem to think that they have to further advance the fundamentalist dominance by fussing at those of us who don't even follow their religion. They need to see that. We have NO freedom of speech or religion to speak of and they cannot be convinced, even with all that faith, that it's possible to call the right wing on anything. That's actually the part of the democatic party that COULD change things. yet, they tell me they can't. I thought anything was possible through...you know who.

and I agree with what you are saying :hug:

Honestly, what? What can I, as a liberal Lutheran, do to *stop* the fundies from doing what they do?

It's not my task, fortunately. I'm telling you that the fundamentalists-- and not just our recent incarnation-- have poisoned christianity's message for much of the rest of us. Take away the fear of death and what's left? Two thousand years of bloodshed that is just barely kept in check in America today. You need to be having this discussion with your fellow christians, frankly.

1. Ask your local church to release a press release or statement that says essentially, "We, as Christians, do not share the opinions of X group. We consider their behavior to be antithetical to the Christianity of the bible and of Jesus."

2. As a Christian, be public and vocal that times have changed and that what worked for shepherds in a the Western Asian deserts 3000 years ago is not functional for modern society. Just as slavery has gone the way of the dodo, so must other prejudices. Try to get your churches to make public statements of the same nature.

3. Open dialogues through the Interfaith Alliance with organizations that do not represent Christianity in a positive light. Try to help them to understand that their outrageous statements hurt all Christians, and help no one. Go in the spirit of counseling one's brother.

4. Advocate within your own community to be publicly visible in pro-peace, pro-choice, pro-social justice, whatever activities.

5. Identify yourself as a liberal Christian to politicians, especially those that are pandering to the Neo-Con Chiliast version. Explain to them that their policies are not in keeping with Christian doctrine.

How's that for a start?

In the United Methodist Church, the Discipline clearly states that "no one person, congregation, conference, board, or agency may speak on behalf of the United Methodist Church." That is a right which is reserved for General Conference, which meets every four years to address issues and conduct business.

I will add that I have been preaching on liberal values, insofar as they are Christian values. Unfortunately, I am not permitted to "connect the dots" - I may jeapordize my congregation's tax-exempt status.

During the campaign, I had to stealthily hand over signs, buttons, and other information, with the disclaimer "I am not, at this moment, your pastor - I am a friend, sharing information with you." I could not put a campaign sign in my parsonage yard, but I did put my "Christians for Kerry" bumpersticker on my car (and it's still on).

Overall, I agree with your post. We need to become more vocal, more involved. Unfortunately, most of the people in my congregation are over 65 years old. Where are the young liberals???

should take?

My great-grandparents and grandmother are Methodist, and I know that within their community, their congregation has lead the way on several social issues. The way they've handled it is to take it up a level.

Thanks for doing what you are doing. I wish you could figure out a way to do more because I can't do it.

They hate us worth than they hate atheists.

If christians are divided about what "christ's message" means, then christians need to resolve that among themselves. Until they do, the rest of us are stuck with the reality of christianity as a force for bigotry, intolerance, hatred, oppression, war, and terror. Look at the history of your faith-- and I don't mean only ancient history. Don't be fooled by the relative calm that American secular institutions have imposed. Your coreligionists would delight in torturing and killing folks like me in the name of your christ. They have done it for two thousand years and continue that tradition today, even if they are restrained in the U.S. Deal with that before you ask for my advice. Clean your own house.

on edit-- I know that sounds harsh, but I don't know what else to say. It's obvious I don't have much respect for christianity, but I'll emphasize again that I have a personal history with fundamentalist christianity. I've seen that beast.

telling the Democrats that they have to "fix" the Republicans.

The fundies think we're evil and deluded, so they would NOT listen to us.

You're right, they think of liberal christians in the same light that they do non christians, so it's kind of mute for them to listen to us. I know for a fact that Christian Fundementalists look down on my faith, Roman Catholicism just as they do non Christians.

-- on just about anybody who isn't one of them.

A great part of many progressives' misgivings about Christianity has to do with the screaming zealots who think Catholics are Satanists, that gays and lesbians are wicked, that cartton characters are degenerate, that evolution is particularly evil and science generally is more or less evil.

Unless there is a distinction made, the fact remains that you are worshipping the same god, the same savior, and using the same (mostly) Bible.

As the Rolling Stones put it in their fine tune "Sweet Virginia," you've got to scrape that shit right off your shoes."

I wish you had ot withdrawn from this thread. You added a lot as you usually do on DU.

I could almost overlook the prosletyzing and my rape if those of you who are liberal or left leaning moderates would quit saying something is impossible. What's up with that phrase "nothing is impossible through the lord Jesus Christ" if you can't do this and you can't do that and you can't do what you have the most power to do? What kind of faith is that?

I don't see any workable way for that to happen. The denominations and personalities that fall under the very broad umbrella of "Christian" have been divided for hundreds of years.

Fundies do often hate us. They think we aren't "real" Christians. They aren't going to listen to what I say any more than they would listen to you what you say. Liberal Christians and those who do not accept the Bible as inerrant and literal are no better than heathens, atheists, or followers of what they deem to be "false" religions. Many consider us blasphemers.

Liberal Christians tend to be a live and let live sort - our beliefs are personal to us and we don't feel we have the right to judge the paths others take in their own lives. We, unlike the fundies, don't believe we "own" Christ.

...as beyond your power to influence, then those of us who are not christians will see the face the fundies give your religion. Again, it's your house to clean, not mine. I'm just telling you it's dirty. You're not denying it.

we're not the "in your face" type.

Sorry, but it IS beyond my power to influence or control the fundie machine. While it's possible to get through to an individual by example, I, as a liberal Lutheran, doing my thing, cannot take down that massive machine. For Pete's sake, the liberal Lutherans can't even get the conservative Lutheran synods to agree with them on some core issues.

Why should I deny that extreme fundamentalism has put a dirty spin on Christianity in general? It has. And I can't stop the extremists from being extreme.

...don't be surprised-- or offended-- when non-christians like me find your religion hypocritical and mean-spirited. You can't change it-- well then I certainly can't.

on edit-- changed "your faith" to "your religion." My bad.

And I'm not going to speak for her.

But *I* am neither hypocritical nor mean-spirited. (Well...maybe I'm a hypocrite in some areas, but not this one.)

My faith is different from the faith you are referring to. "Christian" is a mighty big umbrella, and many who fall under it do not have the same beliefs I do.

Don't personalize this discussion-- I was speaking about christianity, which I am familiar with through family history. I don't know you, and would never suggest that you are anything but sincere in your faith. My point is that your personal sincerity does not change the evil that is done in the name of christianity.

I think it's time to suspend this discussion with the understanding that while we might not agree in all respects, we respect one another's personal perspectives.

No question on that. But you remember that I got into this discussion by asking you what you thought *I* could do in some effort dispel the the reputation extreme fundamentalists have given Christianity. I never thought you were personally disparaging me.

and then see if you can make the same argument.

Just because one radical sect of Islam is creating havoc throughout the world, it does not give me the broad brush to paint all of Islam as evil and misguided.

I did not paint "all" of christianity as "evil and misguided." I said that I find it incredibly ironic that christians point to biblical teachings of tolerance and peace while practicing bigotry, oppression, and war. In truth, I think many of the core precepts of christianity are wonderful. I don't want to get into a theological discussion here-- but you must agree that christianity also lends itself to the excesses of faith we've seen throughout history and continue to see today in the form of religious fundamentalism. Is 2000 years of christian history all aberrant?

Returning to the substance of your reply-- yes, I think the same is true of Islam. The existence of an Islamic fundamentalism movement that espouses bigotry, oppression, and violence more or less proves that, don't you think?

<I said that I find it incredibly ironic that christians point to biblical teachings of tolerance and peace while practicing bigotry, oppression, and war.>

By reading that sentence, it sounds as if you have lumped all Christians into the same category. This ain't theology - it's grammar.

I don't practice bigotry, oppression, and war. I am working to combat it, not embrace it. While I still have my own vices (which I'm trying to work on), it is not my goal to spread evil throughout the world.

Now, to get theological (for just a second): These fundamentalists were around in Jesus' time, too. The Pharisees and Scribes were the ones beating people up with their Scripture. JC called them "a brood of vipers, waiting to lash out and strike."

He also warned of hypocrisy: "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will inherit the kingdom of God...when they call upon me, I will say 'go away, evil-doers, for I never knew you."

The problem of hypocrisy and fundamentalism is part of the human condition, and is not limited to certain Christians.

If you want to change my opinion of christianity you need to have that conversation with your fellow christians. As you say, the Pharisees have always been a part of every faith. But jesus was not successful in driving them out, notwithstanding the message of the gospels. As I noted above, I'm not christian, so that's not my task. If the Pharisees are still occupying the temple, whose job do you think it is to cast them out?

on edit-- your point is taken. But look at the history-- including the current state-- of christianity.

There is no centralized Christianity. The fundies are like my 53rd cousins on my mother's side. They exist, but we don't get together at family reunions.

There are others out there with the name "Cheesehead." They do not all speak with one voice, nor do they believe the same. But for someone to say "all cheese is bad" is unfair if you've only had Limburger. I say "Brie! Swiss! Cheddar!" And if you tell me you are lactose-intolerant, that's OK. But please don't stand by the cheese aisle in the store telling everyone of your gastro-intestinal woes. (I believe the Immodium is in Aisle 3)

Maybe the real issue is that the majority of Americans are lactose-tolerant, and there are a few hard-core Cheeseheads. Not everyone chooses to eat cheese - but it would be terrible if you mock my cheese, or tell me I'm stupid for indulging in cheese. I can step around you to get to the cheddar, but if you disrupt my shopping experience, I'm going to speak to the manager.

Christians out there like you. That said

The "Cheeseheads" I have met however, won't even let me in the store if I don't profess my love of the cheese.

If I'm lactose intolerant and some cheeseheads want to force feed me cheese,they shouldn't be surprised when I vomit on them.

The fact that some didn't agree to the force feeding, but couldn't do anything about it,will not make my stomach less upset.

And if I see someone shoving Gouda down your throat, I will intervene. I promise.

There are people in Wisconsin who do not like cheese. (I knew a man who despised cheese - for real!) We have pretzels, too. And beer. And brats....

:)

I like pretzels,and I'm smart enough not to choke on one. :;):

as long as you Americans are willing to excuse the excesses of the current republic... as beyond your power to influence, then those of us who are not Americans will see the face of the extremists running your country as your entire coutnry... Again, it's your house to clean, not mine...

Point being - we may try (as liberal Christrians) but we have fewer avenues to do wo than through the political system through which we all are trying, currrently unsuccessfully, to turn back.. and currently all that you state fits squarely upon each American's back as the world looks upon a Bolton nom. to the UN; a Wolfowitz appt to the world bank... these reflect upon us as Americans... And at least in the political system there are avenues through which to take (or try to do so) dissent.

Its late - this may be a nonsequitor - just what jumped into the head when reading this post.

I march, I teach, and I work for alternatives, but my efforts-- and those of folks who share my views-- have so far failed. I haven't given up. But I believe you are right-- America's "face" is that of an international bully with no respect for law or morality. I think your analogy is excellent, and spot on.

I'm sorry, we're still the target of physical violence (there have been several murders of atheists by fundamentalists in the last year. I can find links if you'd like.)

I gave a list of 5 objectives further up. I think that's a starting point for every liberal Christian who wants to counter the Pharisees. No, it's not easy.

And they're not entirely original. They're an opposite of what I was told to do as a Catholic teen to get our message out publicly. At the time, Catholicism was considered "under attack".

Liberals are fond of pointing out that Communists don't represent them, but they've yet to do much to stop them. :eyes:

That makes it all better. How could I have been so wrong about christianity?

You can do it!

do I have the right to disparage all black people, because...

well, the black people haven't "done anything to stop the crime among their community members"?????????????

:shrug:

... you MUST be robbed because you are not black?

:shrug:

and Im Jewish?

:shrug:

... for being Jewish...

I'd say you'd have a right to be a critic of the Nation of Islam.

those who are harassed by fundies have a right to criticize fundies, but not all christians.

Just as being harassed by the Nation of Islam does not give me a right to criticize all black people, even those not part of the nation of islam.

You never answered my first question, but instead substituted a different group.

fundies are a radical subset of christians which may have destructive beliefs and may offend members of the general population.

The Nation of Islam is a radical subset of African Americans who may have destructive beliefs and may offend members of the general population.

Therefore, if you cannot blame all blacks for the actions of the NOI, (which is true), then you cannot blame all christians for the actions of the fundies.

Edited to add: Skin color is not some sort of equivalent to religious belief.

as is skin color. In fact the U.S. Supreme Court views religious discrimination to be equally as bad as racial discrimination.

... of African-American skin color. What does skin color believe in? what rules does skin color seek to impose?

I think your analogy was a weak one at the outset, and now has been stretched beyond its breaking point.

:shrug:

that a skin color and a belief system are exactly the same, but it follows for both that you cannot blame the entirety for the actions of a few. It is equally as silly to do for christians as for black people.

Your "logic" is what paved the way for racism. Take the worst examples and extrapolate them to an entire group.

NT

... state legislatures, the airwaves, public discourse, etc etc.

I think it's more than a "few."

a small but vocal and determined group.

The fact that they dominate the White House and Congress doesn't prove all Christians are like them.

aren't starting threads about how mean it is for liberals to disparage their political beliefs.

I don't get it. I'm pointing out hypocrisy.

I am a democrat. I am also a Christian. I am also pro-life but don't feel that I should force my beliefs on others and therefore I consider myself pro-life-pro-choice. I hate what Bush has done and what he is doing and I actively fight against his ignorance daily. But sometimes I get exasperated because the very people who are supposed to be in my corner try to make me feel as though I have to think exactly as they do or be dismissed. This is the party of inclusion, and I thank you for pointing that out.

I hope you perceive that under 99% of the comments is just absolute exasperation at how some authoritarian people have hijacked His name, to shield their own ignorance, bigotry and deviousness. I certainly share that feeling -- although my anger is specifically with authoritarianism, which transcends specific religions. Indeed, I believe it is authoritarianism which is now holding the world hostage -- it's not a "clash of civilizations" -- it is a clash of absolutist extremist bullies....

Sometimes the way it is expressed makes it sound like people are dissing Jesus Himself -- and that just isn't so. I truly hope you understand this.

That being said, for people on the other side, it is not a bad thing for them to be periodically reminded that truly their anger is with some of Christ's "followers", and that Jesus lived an exemplary life, and inspired many great souls to truly follow His teachings. Some of these good folk are here at DU! It DOES help when people speak up when they are offended, or point out when people are being unfairly offensive. I know I have learned from people straightening me out when I have been unfair....

I am presuming to speak for many different people here,but I think it is fair to say that most anger and ridicule you encounter here is directed at unsavory individuals or groups who profess to be Christians, not Jesus and His mission.

In fact, just about everyone I know, included committed atheists are in agreement that his views on life were healthy and good. Why shouldn't they be? He built on the best from Greek and Chinese religious thinkers.

I think you are missing the point about the criticisms. I and many others who have long had tolerant views of religion and religious people have become aware that the right wing fanatics are successfully conquering the U.S. without firing a shot. We don't want that and it really has nothing to do with Christianity. If there is a shred of Jesus's teachings in the policies of the Bush administration, I've missed them. Bush reigns death and destruction,
deprives the poor to give to the rich, ignores the needs of the sick and elderly. Does that sound like Jesus to anyone.

You shouldn't fret if occasionally some non-believer carelessly uses some slang like "geebus" or whatever it was that bothered you. Remember , all of us on D.U. except the freepers and mainly here of one purpose and this is try to rescue our Democracy from the bonds of
right wing fanaticism. Let's join together on the major things.
We love you and we admire Jesus, if in fact there was a physical man of that name.

about the good of Jesus' words and ways. And I agree that we all have to rescue our democracy. But sometimes folks here, perhaps out of frustration about the RW's claiming to speak for Christianity, attack with a broad hammer and do belittle believers. And they sometimes lump all Christians in the same category, seeming to not realize that there are Christians who do their best to follow Jesus. Threads involving religion often devolve into flame wars full of atheists attacking DUers expressing their faith.

I also cringe a bit at 'jeebus'. I cringe more at those that are doing EVIL in his name.

There are some here w/ NO experience w/religion. I am cool with that and recognize that they do not understand the depth of belief, and it's effect on ones' world-view.

They do not see the pain that it can create in a 'believer'.

They see Jesus as being a sign of the 'right wing whackos'... that is sad.

Jesus was an anti-war, human rights espousing, Plutocracy despising,..... Socialist.

When I read it I think of it more as a diss on the people who are doing horrible things in Jesus' name. I honestly don't think they really know Jesus very well, so I think the misnomer is accurate, in a way, if that makes sense.

in a number of ways. Very proletarian, so to speak.

well an *agnostic one and I really don't get worked up about religious humor or disparaging as it's called here. No one's preventing anyone else from worshipping or not worshipping as they choose. I think God's got a helluva sense of humor.

*I believe some devine being created all this. I'm just not sure if that being is necessarily a Christian god.

-- everyone else in history. Whether one believes in his magical powers and divine origin or merely considers him a dynamic teacher, leader, or revolutionary figure who rose against the tyranny of local Roman authorities, he is on the historical record.

No one is under obligation to treat him nicely just because you or someone else believes he is magical. In Shakespeare, characters may exclaim, "By His nails and wounds!" -- a reference to the crucificixion. Should we bash Shakespeare, then? Should we bash the fictional character who mouths those words?

No.

We should maybe choose our own sense of faith or religion or a given path or what have you, and quietly go about pursuing it. If I stub my toe and shout "Jesus!" at the top of my lungs, it should be an indication too you not that I am a coarse person but that my damned toe hurts.

<No one is under obligation to treat him nicely just because you or someone else believes he is magical.>

That's the kind of disparaging comment I'm referring to (or at least one kind). Using the word "magical" implies that it is something false, something only children would believe. That's insulting those who believe. If I'm misinterpreting your use of the word, I apologize, but I don't believe in magic, so to me, that word has a negative implication.

There are many theories that Jesus of Galilee was a magician. Period. That's not my opinion, that's the record.

The magical may in fact be something a child believes, but also something an adult believes. In either case it may not be an inferior response to events, but nevertheless no one else is obliged to believe it.

Your believing in a trans-human, or magical, Jesus does NOT obligate anyone else to believe it. It does not.

My secular interpretation of a figure -- Jesus in this case -- is NOT inferior to your divination of that same figure. Period.

I never said that anyone else was obligated to believe what I believe. I only said that I'd prefer that my beliefs not be belitted. And beliefs in Jesus/God are frequently belittled on DU.

-- theater and not a personal assault on you, notmyprez.

But please consider that the Christian era is now a splintered field. Some of its mysteries went east on the wind into Asia Minor and beyond; some of it stayed in Rome. Luther's hammer split it again. Then multitudes of many-striped Protestants threw in their changes and modifications.

Eventually that same faith, tradition, Bible-led worldview, has made it to Colorado Springs, Colorado, where Jim Dobson rails against Sponge Bob for fear he might be turning pre-schoolers gay.

I agree with others who have posted here that your argument is not with progressives who generally give Jesus a secular/socialist nod of approval, but with the so-called "Christians" who have hijacked your faith right from under your very noses.

Put it where it goes. Hold the fundies accountable for their hysterical idiocy and anti-intellectualism.

And I hope I will have the opportunity to hold them accountable. I first have to train myself to keep calm in discussions/arguments. I can fly off the handle too easily when someone pisses me off with their idiotic views, and I know I have to somehow learn to stay cool as a cucumber when dealing with those folks.

-- in Pinellas Park. The folks gathered arounhd that hospice strike me as just the people we're talking about here -- the fundamentalists' most hysterical wing. These are the undiagnosed cult maniacs, glaring at variance in all its forms, and moralizing their petty butts off in a sort of scorched-earth condemnation of any judge who doesn't affirm their bias.

Wow is it a frightening thing to see.

I would suggest that if the leftist Christians among us were to have some impact on the process, that they should target these people and remove them from 'Christianity.' I can read and genuinely admire the socialist veins in the ministry of Jesus but I'll be damned if I'm going to put up with Fred Phelps screaming "God Hates Fags" at gay funerals. At least not without a comment.

Henry told the Pope to cram it and started his own damned church. It's an interesting precedent.

I think leftist Christians are well within their rights to do the same to the nutcase fundies. Edge them to the precipice and give 'em a good shove.

My failure to believe what you believe doesn't automatically mean that I am belittling you. It all comes down to how we define words like "magic", "irrationality" and "myth".

I don't attach any negative connotations to those words. Magic means a phenomenon that can't be explained rationally. Christianity is filled with beliefs in "magic"- that's the whole point right? Walking on water, fish and loaves, raising the dead. It's irrational and magical. I'm nowhere near arrogant enough to think that human rationality can explain everything in the universe. I allow space for the magical and irrational. I just don't fill that space the same way you do. But acknowledging that that space is there doesn't mean that I'm belittling you.

Ditto "myths". A myth is a story that explains something or teaches us something but which we don't generally believe in a literal sense. What other word am I supposed to use for stories that I don't believe really happened but which I believe may still be instructional or interesting? "Myth" only has a negative connotation if you want it to.

I sometimes refer to religion as a "crutch". I'm sure that to you this is offensive but there really isn't any other way to explain how I feel about it. Some people seem to feel a need for spiritual assistance. I don't. I don't look down on people who do or think I'm better than them. I don't think it's the words that are belittling but the attitude of the people behind them.

When I tell people I don't really need religion they look at me like I'm insane and a part of me is missing or warped. Isn't that the assumption of the religious? That everyone has a spiritual side and that those who don't go to church are neglecting or starving themselves? They must be in denial or so full of sin they lack self-awareness. That belief is pretty belittling to me, but I understand that the comments come from a different belief structure than mine and are not intended to cause pain.

Right now, I'm having trouble keeping up with this thread.

Surely mocking Him is infinitely less offensive than what many other people do in His name.

And some myths can be based in reality. As so many religions mention Jesus, it's kinda hard to truly overlook.

Just thought I'd let you know.

Their leaders left Christianity for Mammon worship back in the 70's. They are writing the new gospels of hatred, and lies, as we speak. They have nothing of Jesus in them. I'm getting real tired of democrats pretending that they do. Rant off. Sorry.

IMO

all jokes. Some have no humor.

But I have no patience for holy cows.

I don't find any reason to curb my comments because someone else thinks a person - real or imagined - is sacred in some way.

But tell me, would it bother you if someone made disparaging remarks abput someone you admired or followed? Or if they belittled an activity you enjoyed by saying only morons would do that?

If your answer is no, then at least you're being consistent and our portion of the discussion has no need to continue. Peace.

I'm not sensitive about it that way.

In fact I'm more likely to be the first one to make a crack about it.

My problem is that some of the comments that are made on threads involving Jesus/God are not done in a humerous vein. Yes, some of them are, but some are not. I particularly have a problem with the latter.

it might mean some situations are better off avoided.

Most people on this board really respect Jesus' teachings as well as Buddha's (those men have a lot in common, just ask Nich Nhat Hanh).

In my women's spirituality group at church, we often read books that are written by a Christian and use Buddhist teachings as well as Biblical passages.

called "Jesus and Buddha as Brothers."

It's absolutely TERRIFIC.

. . . is a phoney baloney circus to benefit the chocolate, candy, women's fashion, and greeting card industries?

}(

Or at least some more clear parameters?

B-)

:-)

apparently, reality itself offends some.

Floogeldy is correct. The supposed holiday about bunnys and candy has nothing to do with Jesus. It is all about sales. Easter celebrations of the arisen Christ are untoutchable in a society that believes in freedom of religion. The bunny is fair game.

That's a... disturbing... position to take. :scared:

-- have an idea or opinion or thought, expressable on equal terms under the free speech provisionss of the First Amendment.

Besides, I thought Floog's comment about the warping -- if I may use that term -- of "Easter" is strong. It IS a marketer's campaign in many respects.

The damn drugstore is crammed with chocolate rabbits from floor to ceiling all this past week. By today -- Monday -- they're "discounted" and people are evidently grabbing them like hotcakes.

If Floog or anybody else asks consideration of the marketer's angle on a given holiday, and sees in that angle a dislocation of some Christians' original intent, I'd say it suggests a keen observer with a sharp mind who has THIS holiday by the short hairs.

greeting cards by several centuries and is celebrated as the most important festival of the church year.

It was co-opted from many centuries' traditions and variations on those traditions to accommodate the political goals and social sensibilities of the holy originals of the Catholic Church.

It is absolutely pagan in origin. Not Christian.

There are connections to pagan practices, and the "choices" made by the Church as to when to observe them do coincide with pagan holidays.

In early Christian worship, Sunday (the day following the sabbath) was named as "the Day of Resurrection" or "the Lord's Day." They would gather at night, in secret (for fear of persecution) and celebrate a common meal together. It is believed by some that this gathering is where the symbol of the icthys (sp?), the Christian fish, originated.

As Christianity became more stable after the fall of Rome, they began to find liturgical patterns throughout the year. While every Sunday, in a sense, was still "a little Easter," Christians began to mark the passage of time by following Biblical (gospel) history. This was rather tricky, since the four gospels have varying accounts as to the chronology of events.

Once the church had status (was "institutionalized"), the dating of the Holy Days (which is where "holiday" comes from) became more fixed. These details were part of the discussions of the seven ecumenical councils of the 4th and 5th centuries.

The Christian celebration of Easter is observed in part, on the lunar calendar, and recognition of the vernal equinox. It usually, but not always, coincides with Passover - to jibe with their interpretation of biblical events. It should also be noted that the Eastern and the Western churches are not in agreement on the dating of Easter. (that in itself is a very long discussion, which I will side-step. ;) )

Christianity co-opted -- a euphemistic diction for "stole outright" -- this cycle-of-renewal holiday from the pagan world. Churches were built on sites of pagan temples.

The remainder of your post discusses what happened in secret, as if somehow you know or anyone else knows what transpired in those times. There are no reliable documents to any of your assertions. For that matter, there is no reliable document on the life of Jesus of Galilee.

Most of your post, Rev, covers territory after Christianity began to take hold and does not eclipse my original claim.

The early Christians ripped the pagans off, pure and simple.

I can provide resources, if you are interested.

Suffice it to say that early Christian Worship practices borrowed heavily from both Jewish and Pagan practices. But it would be incorrect to assume that Christians were "celebrating Easter" in 90 CE.

What you call a "rip-off", Christians call "adaptation." Do you believe in archetypes? All cultures use certain archetypes, which are then interpreted in light of their own experiences. Some common archetypes, used by Christians, include ritual bathing/washing/purification (baptism); bread/meal/fellowship (communion); wine/alcohol/celebration (communion). There are many cultures which use these symbols. Nobody ever claimed that Christianity had the exclusive rights to them.

In a sense, one could argue that everybody rips off everybody. Christians took Pagan archetypes and Jewish worship practices, and made something which was new and meaningful for them. They did not do it because "that's how you attract more people." They did it because it had significance to them.

The first "official" setting of the date of Easter took place at the Council of Nicea (325 CE), where it was set "on the 14th day of Nisan" - the Jewish lunar calendar. Several years later, the Western Church agreed that "Easter" would be set on the first Sunday after the vernal equinox.

It is more accurate to claim that Christians chose Easter as a time to remember the events of Christ's life, death, and resurrection, because they historically occured at Passover.

-- Elaine Pagels and others. Many of those communities pre-date Chrisitianity in any of its manifestations and several included extensive ancient tratis and tenets from a trailmix of eastern traditions.

A strong case can be made that the canonization of the Bible as we have it today (with more-or-less variations owing to different editions) was an exercise in censorship. "We want this book, this book, and this book, yes, but not that book, that book or that book," with the latter group doubtless including the Secret gospels of Mark, Thomas, etc. The Church insisted that these books did not exist and that by the way, their agents across the Mediterranean world should destroy said non-existent texts whenever they encountered communities using them for spiritual practice.

Hypocrisy cuts across many institutions, but the early Church matches contemporary tv evangelists point-for-point.

I accept fully your construction that archetypes are at work; Jung was rightly attracted to the spiritual domain of various religious traditions because he found active evidence of his base theories.

I'm still extremely comfortabole, however, with "theft" instead of "adaptation" although I concede it is a matter of spin. Agree also with you on points of significance as opposed to faith as a popular attraction. But it is the significance question that weakens modern-day mainstream Christianity. I've been through evangelical Lutheran, then Catholic, then Episcopal, then back to Catholic on the Christian side of experience alone, and find that the Sunday morning experience is dead in the water. The image of a perfumed corpse suggests itself -- congregations gussied up for morning services before returning home for another week of abnegation of spiritual identity and public service, and casual dismissal of history and science often thrown in. DU posters who attack some Christians (not all Christians) for voting for Dubya have a deep and I believe immutable point: these fuckers are hypocrites to invoke a hellfire Jesus as an instrument of denial and oppression and enforced marginalization, as Bush does. If mainstream Christian communities would fire up the significance factor you mention, I believe the teeter-totter would tilt back the other way. Toward the left, toward providing attention, food, shelter, and clothing for those who need some or all those things.

And don't even get me started on the media.

How about we give this old thread a rest, and have a good discussion somewhere else? You make so many points that I totally agree with, and I think that, together, we may find some common ground - which will not only help our current situation here at DU, but would also benefit greatly the Liberal Churches, liberal atheists, and the Democratic Party.

Would you like to join a discussion at the Liberal Christians group? This kind of conversation, with polite interchange, is exactly the kind of discussion I wish that all were capable of having on DU.

Peace to you - and I hope to see you around the board.

-- time to time.

And I offer good wishes to you also and say thanks for your words here in this thread.

As for liberals, progressives, Democrats, Greens, etc. -- I hope in the 2006 and 2008 elections, I hope we'll kick their asses from here to Houston.

Will look for you by and by on DU.

Peace.

Ostera is a festival for the rebirth of the sun,and celebrate the coming summer.Its about fertility, hence the Bunny's and eggs.

care. I see the gifts in my FAULTS and accept that others might not. I don't need others to respect that.

Now lets replace the words.

I'm a total CHRISTIAN and proud of it. If someone says my JESUS is WRONG I don't care. I see the gifts in my BELIEFS and accept that others might not. I don't need others to respect that.

You'll be much happier if you can let others vent and just be happy with yourself. It makes some people feel better to vent about it, so just let them and be happy with what you believe. Its pretty simple

is no more or less offensive to me than someone trying to tell me that Christianity is a great philosophy to live by, when I haven't mentioned a need for a new philosophy.

Christianity is not just my faith - it is also my vocation (my calling).

I can usually tell when someone's jesting in fun, and I can play along with others really well. One of my favorite movies is "The Life of Brian."

But when someone belittles my faith, they belittle me. Those who claim "religion is a mental illness, for the deranged," you are calling ME deranged. When you say that Christianity has done nothing productive or of value, you tell me that I have no value to you.

If you don't believe in Christianity, that's OK. I'm not here to convert anyone. But I'm also not willing to sit back and be insulted. You wouldn't insult someone based on their race, occupation, sexual orientation, or physical condition, would you? All I'm asking for is the same thing as anyone else: RESPECT.


an afterthought: why do we feel we need to "bash" anyone or anything? Is it to feel powerful? Is it because we feel so insignificant, that we only feel superior when we tear down others? I'm just wondering.

I also like your afterthought: I've been saying that very same thing a lot lately. I was even thinking about starting a thread on that very subject, but it would probably turn into a bash-fest of some sort.

Else the rest of us see only the difference between (and this is analogy, not literal) alcoholic and enabler, active abuser and passive abuser. We on the outside don't see the difference because we don't see those of you that profess to be different trying to stop the others. To be rather blunt, we hear you talking the talk, but we don't see you walking the walk. We don't see you doing anything to either reign them in or distance yourselves from them.

Work together and declare a reformed, united Christian schism. But do something, don't just talk about how helpless you are to stop it.

If you say never than your not a human being.

Its natural to vent about things that bother us. It helps to release negative energy that would otherwise build up and create more problems. To turn things that bother someone into a joke is a natural human response and this is a perfect forum for that type of venting.

:shrug: am I wrong about that?

:evilgrin:

And so is everyone else.

That's one of the first things people (meaning, Christians) conveniently forget about Christianity.

I do plenty of venting and I turn things into a joke as well. But I never tell someone that he's stupid to his face. It would be rude. And I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings.

What if I consider myself rude, and get offended if you insult me for being rude.

Its never ending, just let people be and say what they want, you don't have to take it personal, and you don't have to believe them.

and did it in a way that I could not, thank you. I don't know why some bash honestly either. There are some things I wont get offended about of course like jebus, as you said about life of brian, I love the film, Dogma myself. What I can not tolerate is people who know nothing of what my faith means to me personally saying its a mental illness to believe what I believe.

By not tolerating them

I don't understand the hostility some people have to religion when religion has done a lot of good, and I'll admit, a lot of bad too, but a lot of good is ignored.

Good on you, John! :thumbsup:

I demand it. Right now.

}(

When the fundies in your town, the ones that you and your congregation feel are not representative of the Real Message, misbehave, do you call a press conference or release a statement saying "WE, the Church of NMO, respectfully declare that we have nothing to do with those people, and find the cooption of our faith to be disrespectful and blasphemous?"

What I'm asking is, are you calling them on their bad behavior?

You, the liberal Christians of America and the world, are the only ones who can call the Pharisees on their bad behavior. If we atheists do it, we're religion bashing. If Jews do it, it's considered sour grapes or jealousy. If Muslims do so, it's considered a threat. Therefore, the only people who can legitimately call foul are players from the same team. That's you.

You have the authority as Christians to deal with your own. What the rest of us, those who do not believe or do not believe as you do, are asking is that you handle your own brothers and be your brothers' keepers.

Thank you.

And the honest answer is "I do not have that authority."

My little community is not a freeper-haven. Right now, the Catholic parish is without a priest - and they are in a spin, wondering when they will have some kind of leadership. (Most of this area around Green Bay is heavily Catholic). The conservative Lutherans keep to themselves, but their pastors will not even speak with me, because I am a woman. They will not participate in ecumenical events.

I replied to your post up-thread about what liberal Christians can do. I do not have the authority to speak on behalf of The United Methodist Church. But, if asked, I may respond with something like "our denomination believes..."

"Calling out" is treacherous territory. We do not do it on DU - we leave that to the mods, who deal with people privately, not publically. But if someone is a disruptor - well, that's the slippery slope, isn't it?

I'll need to ponder this, and get back to you tomorrow. I need to get to bed. Sunrise service begins at 7 a.m., and I most definately am NOT a morning person!!
(I've contended that Jesus rose, NOT first thing in the morning, but instead, the night before. The women arrived at the tomb first thing in the morning - and it was already empty... therefore....)

Forgive me if it takes a while. Tomorrow's a very long day for me. I may need a nap first.

/edit for punctuation

It's not called bashing. It's called self defense. Your profession tells lies plain and simple. I still say ask and ye shall receive is a lie. I've seen evidence of it for 20 years now and I am tired of the promises that that have been broken by Jesus. Your profession preys on the weak and definitely does NOT have the answers. If you think I am tearing you down by saying that, then I challenge you to get my one prayer answered. I should not have to go into details with you about it either. If there really is a God and ask and ye shall receive is really the truth and if what the bible says about 2 or more people asking for the same thing guaranteeing a yes answer from God, then let's see it happen. I'll give you and the original poster and any other Christian on this board guaranteed to be offended by the things that I say a year to make it happen. If you do, I'll take it all back. If not, don't waste your breath asking me to believe something that has NEVER fulfilled its promises. And believe me, I was a faithful Christian at one time who honestly believed that the more humiliation I let myself endure, the better Christian I was. I have taken way more abuse than I deserve for far too long now. It has torn my self esteem down so bad that I have no hope. I want you to prove it to me without sending me a bunch of psychobabble. I've heard it all now. There is nothing new you can say to me.

then there is nothing I can say. My God is not Santa Claus, and s/he most definately does not "give me what I want." I often have no idea what I want. Prayer is the means through which I discover not what I want, but what I need. God desires, more than anything, to be in relationship with each of us, and prayer is intimate conversation with God.

1. the methodology of interpretation

The passage to which you refer is set within a specific context: Jesus' "Sermon on the Mount."
What you are quoting is one phrase of a sentence of an idea/thought in a sermon.

This morning, I took a plastic easter egg (which a child had given me, filled with a note: "God loves you, and so do I."), and placed it on the altar during the offering. I told the congregation about the note, and said "my sermon is nothing compared to what Tommy has given us today. This is the Easter message, plain and simple." Then I said, "Now you can officially go home and tell everyone that Pastor Ruth laid an egg on the altar."

If someone takes one phrase from that statement, they could claim that I said "I laid an egg." One could say those are my very words, because that is indeed what I said. But if you inferred that somehow I claimed that I had the ability to lay an egg like a chicken, that is not true. And if someone, who doesn't know me, only heard that phrase alone, they might say "Oh, that's the church where the pastor teaches people that they can lay eggs like chickens." That statement is false, and a misrepresentation of what happened.

Fundamentalists use scripture in just that way. They often take individual sentences, out of context, and make the Bible say what they want it to say. This kind of "recipe-book" redaction is a false use of scripture. The primary rule for interpretation (especially for preachers) is "let the text speak to you."
Do not make the text say what you want it to say. Read it, study it, digest it, and let it sit with you. Listen. Listen again. Then speak.

* * * * * * *

2. an explanation of the passage about prayer (the content)

What Matthew wrote, in context, was a synopsis of a sermon in which Jesus was teaching people about love, self-worth, value, fear, anger, religious practices, judging others, and self-deception. (The entire sermon is really Matthew, chapters 5 - 7. It is also found in Luke, but not as one complete "sermon", but rather, divided by various teachings of Jesus.

This passage, on religious practices, is about prayer. Jesus says, when you pray, pray like this:



He tells them not to make a public display of prayer. He tells them that if they want forgiveness, then they have to give forgiveness to others - if they won't, then God will not forgive them. When they fast (as a spiritual discipline) it should be done privately, between you and God, and not for public display. He warns against materialism, and the pursuit of false treasures: God is not about giving wealth. If you're poor, do not worry about it. You WILL be provided for, more than you realize.

But the real heart of his sermon comes next: "Do not judge, so that you may not be judged. If you judge others, you will be judged in the same harsh manner that you judge others. Do not profane things which are holy. Then comes:



Jesus concludes by saying this way is difficult - it is a narrow gate, but it is the way that leads to life. He warns against false prophets, who are known by their fruits. And the biggie is the warning against self-deception (and my personal favorite):



His last words in the sermon tell people that it isn't enough to simply hear the words: they must act on them. (in other passages, "Be doers of the Word, and not hearers only.")

* * * * * * *

3. personal reflection/thoughts

I am sorry that you believe you have been lied to. I do not know enough about your situation to make suggestions, and I doubt that you want any. That's OK.

Christianity most definately is NOT about enduring humiliation or abuse!! Anyone who teaches that is gravely misrepresenting the faith, and will be held accountable. :grr:
Christianity is about love: love for God, and love for one another. My faith teaches that Jesus endured humiliation and abuse, so that we would not have to. We are to treat one another with love and respect.
("I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone whill know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another." -John 13:34-35)

We may need to "agree to disagree" here. I'm OK with that. I'm not here to convert anyone. I'm simply speaking out on this thread because I do have a few things to say, which may or may not be helpful to others. All I ask is that my views and beliefs be treated with the same respect that others receive. We can politely disagree with one another.

"If someone honestly believes that prayer is "getting what you want,"

from my post. You are in essence denying me a chance at a life worth living by believing that. How dare you do that. Even medical science has proven that what I was praying for is a necsessity for a person's mental health and physical health. The fact is they proved it when they did a study on infants in incubators. The ones not loved were less healthy and died more often than not.

The Bible DOES SAY ask and you will receive. It IS a LIE. Period. It's not even like I am asking for world peace or to be rich or to become the world's most loved person or something that should be that incredibly hard to accomplish here. All I am asking for is something so basic that to be denied it proves that either there is no god or he is a hatemonger. And I have proven that there are no opportunities for me time and time again. Being fed lines about how I should somehow live my life without respect from even one single person ever is an insult and is humiliating. How can you agree with my humiliation AND AT THE SAME TIME swear up and down that humiliating someone like me isn't what your religion stands for?

You can type a long winded post swearing up and down that your god is all you need, but let's watch you do without a chosen family like I have. Let's watch you have to listen to someone telling you that you should live your life without your basic needs being met when you put out more effort than those around you to get those basic needs met. Try being born into a domineering family that denies you your basic rights and being surrounded by people who gang up on you at every turn with no one on your side for one year, just one and THEN tell me you still believe in a God or that your religion has all the answers and will sustain you right by itself.

The bottom line is that my challenge still stands. My prayer was for something I needed not something I wanted. If you really have the faith you say you have, then why aren't you offering to pray for my NEED to be met? And why are you saying it is something I want and not need without even knowing what it is to begin with? Mighty presumpitve of you, isn't it? It is a fact that the bible says ask and you will receive. You haven't explained to me yet why you omit that part of the bible in your beliefs. What's the matter? You only believe the parts of the bible you want to believe? Is that it? That doesn't make sense to me and never will. The bible as a whole contradicts itself and according to you and your belief system, hating someone like me is the definition of love.

If your religion says that you should bring people to your God, then you have failed in your religion, because you'll never convince me until you show me some results. A person should NOT be denied basic love and I have been when it comes to simply having a family that I choose as opposed to the one I was born into. That is something that the majority get to have by default and takes for granted all the time by being selfish and marrying and divorcing on a whim. And saying the types of things to me about how lucky I am to NOT have a family that they do is pure out and out humiliation.

To be denied even basic human caring and love AND having you people tell me I am wanting that instead of needing that is the worst thing you can ask of me. Even if you did know more about my situation, I already know how you would reason it out in your mind to tell me I can live probably 80 years or more with the kind of verbal and physical abuse and hate I receive on a daily basis not only from my family but most of the people I meet. Your argument is hogwash.

When you offer me respect, you'll get it in return. You haven't offered it once yet. You are wasting your time even trying at this point because you'll never be able to sell me that idea. It's worse than any idea of hell you can describe to tell someone that basic love and caring should be denied me and telling me it's a want and not a need despite medical science proving you wrong already is what turns you into a fundy on this issue in my mind, because in essence, you are agreeing with them on that point.

"long-windedness" is an occupational hazard. Again, my apologies.

I am confused. You say you expect me and others to pray for what you want - OK, what you say you need. You challenged me to do so, and said you will not respect me until you get the answer you want from God. But you refuse to talk about specifics. That sounded fairly demanding to me.

Rather than directly addess your specific situation (which you say you do not want to talk about), I chose to answer the part about prayer, deliberately leaving out "you" messages. My explanation was not an attack on you. It wasn't about you. It was an attempt to clarify what the Christian understanding of prayer is.

I am quite certain of that. I spent over 45 minutes, writing and revising my response dozens of times.

Now you are angry because I mis-interpreted what you did not say?


Here is my concern about your situation:

If you are in an abusive relationship, LEAVE RIGHT NOW. Call 9-11. They will get you to a shelter. If your life is in danger, you won't find solutions on the internet. PLEASE, contact someone, anyone, in real life, who can help you.

DU is a message board. And spiritual advice/guidance is not something that translates well across the internet.

I am not here to patronize you, humiliate, or embarass you. But it is obvious to me that you are in a great deal of pain. I am willing to listen, but can only do so much. I cannot be your pastor. I cannot be a counselor on this forum.

Whatever your situation is, I hope that you will be able to find the answers you need (and it probably won't come from a religion that has wounded you deeply). It may require radical change. But nobody else can help you, unless you are willing to do something yourself.

Peace to you. (I really mean that, in all sincerity.)

things about me that aren't true. You say I haven't tried to change the situation myself.

And the fact is that the Bible says what it says. It's not living up to its promises when it says ask and you will receive. You still haven't addressed why you choose to ignore the parts of the bible you can't explain. Obviously, you don't have the answer to that question. Unless I am getting what I think I am getting from you, which is that you are saying tough, God won't give you what you need.

You are right about that. My answers won't come from Christianity because I am in the one group that is still considered unforgivable and unloveable by, yes, your God. Thanks for the clarification. It was all I needed to prove my point.

I just clicked on your profile and saw "Rockingham County, NC."

I LIVED in Rockingham County - for six months. My very first pastorate - and I was treated like shit. And this was in one of the so-called "liberal churches" in the area. Believe me, I know quite a bit about the religious intolerance of that area. It's ugly. Butt-ugly.

I'm beginning to piece a few things together here. I suspect you are referring to homosexuality (and oh my lord, that's a hopelessly lost situation in NC - unless you want to move to Chapel Hill or Charlotte.) Most people won't even talk about it - their minds are shut closed, like a steel trap.

In regards to your question I thought I answered that in my "long-winded response" to you. Let me be more concise.

It is impossible to isolate this section of the text from the rest of the passage on prayer (hence, my "lay an egg" story). You need more than a sentence or two to get the full message.

Jesus says "when you pray, do it like this." The Lord's prayer is a model of how to begin a conversation with God. Prayer is personal and private, and is not to be mocked, or paraded around on display for all the world to see. It is important to do an attitude-check before one begins to pray. One must be careful not to judge others (don't pray for the destruction of your enemies), and don't treat prayer as something casual or profane.

"Ask/search/knock" is one idea. It is not enough to simply ask. You must also search. You must knock. Prayer is not about passivly waiting for something to happen. The answers to prayer frequently come in the "seeking" and "knocking". You might not get the answer you were expecting. You might hear "no." But if you aren't listening, you won't hear anything at all. And if you aren't seeking, you won't find what you're looking for. If you don't knock, don't be angry if the door remains closed.

Now, does the Bible actually say that, literally? No. This is theological interpretation. That is what Methodists do. We are not literalists. If you cannot accept that, then we have reached an impass in our discussion.

so there is no point in arguing any more. I've done everything I can to change the situation and it is actually getting worse. So apparently I have received a firm no then. I guess I am to take it that god wants me to feel like an unloved worthless piece of shit loser for the rest of my life. That's no way to build any faith. I'll never worship a god that would put me on this earht and then deny me basic love and compassion in my personal life. We have apparently agreed to disagree. I cannot worhsip your god as I have to accept loneliness and isolation and ridicule as my station in life. So then this means god feels the same way as those who enjoy humiliating me so much. Nothing like being hated by god to top it all off. I know I am not a bad person, but to be called the types of names I have been called and to be viewed by the vast majority the way I am viewed, and to have no hope of every having a full completelife, I don't see any hope there. Am I to admit that I am as worthless as everyone I know tells me I am and drop to my knees and learn how to perform fellatio on any man who tells me to to please god? It sure looks like that's the message I am getting from him and everyone I know. Apparently my being raped REALLY WAS my answer from god like I suspected.


BTW, I live in Richmond County not Rockingham County. Rockingham is the city I live in. Richmond is the county. But both counties are actually the same in the mentality. I should probably post my home address too so I can give god what he wants and get raped again.

I went to Duke for seminary, and joined the Western North Carolina conference. Six years of trying to serve as a female pastor was enough for me. Although there were many who loved me, who called me "a breath of fresh air," the rejection I faced far outweighed any good I was accomplishing.

I have had hate mail from parishoners, angry phone calls late at night and early in the morning. I have had people get up in church meetings and publically attempt to humiliate and smear me and my ministry. People contacted the District Superintendent and Bishop about me and my "radical theology" (after I dared to say that homosexuals were people worthy of being loved by God - and should be loved by us). I have been intoduced to complete strangers, who when they learned I was a woman pastor, literally turned their backs and walked away from me.

I have endured a hostile rumor campaign, simply because I am a middle-aged woman who has never been married, and never had kids. I am not a lesbian (and really - what difference would it make, even if I were?). I have had people go through my mail when I was away, and enter my parsonage while I was gone. I had to get a "cat-sitter" who would be at my home on a regular basis, to prevent people from snooping through my personal things.

I was berated by a church leader on the night before I went in for major surgery. His hatred was so bad, I hung up the phone - and he kept calling back. I had to call the DS, begging him to get this man to leave me alone. It took me a month to recover from surgery, and he began telling other people that I was "faking it." On the day that my grandmother died, he told me I shouldn't be gone very long, because I had duties to attend to...because church was more important.

When my mom had major surgery, I had to take time off to go back to Wisconsin and help care for her and my dad. I was told that I should have found someone else to be there, because my "job" was more important than my mother. I was gone exactly one week - and I used my personal vacation time.

The final straw for me was when someone complained to the DS that I was not keeping my parsonage clean enough. Never mind the fact that I was available to people 24/7, often got up in the middle of the night to sit with families in the emergency room 50 miles away, always had church services, meetings, administrative duties, and other things done in advance; kept up the exterior of the house by doing my own yardwork (it was their responsibility to do that). I was mocked and called "fat and lazy" because I didn't fit the norms of their precious ideal of what a woman should look and act like. The response of the DS did it for me. He said he had to come and inspect the parsonage. Then he told me I had to clean it up, to make it acceptable for the people. It was not dirty or in bad shape. Things were cluttered, because I didn't have enough time in the day to care for myself, because "church always came first." He was shocked when I became angry to the point of tears, and said, "well, I certainly hope you aren't questioning your call." I told him I most certainly was not called to this kind of humiliation and treatment.

And if that weren't enough, as we were negotiating my transfer back to Wisconsin (my home), I was asked to get out two weeks earlier than previously agreed, because "someone else needed to get into my church right away." I was 40 years old, and was being told I should go home to mommy and daddy. When I complained, the DS angrily told me that it was MY fault, because I started it. When I contacted the bishop, she asked me why I couldn't just go home and stay with my parents, until my new church in WI was ready for me to move in.

I will add that during that dark period, I was in intensive therapy for several years (the best damned decision I ever made). I take anti-depressants, because I suffer from chronic depression, which gets worse when situational factors intensify. This therapy was barely covered by my insurance (they would only pay 50% of the cost, AFTER I met the deductible - and prescriptions were paid out of my own pocket). I spent thousands of dollars of my own money, learning how to deal with the abuse that was being heaped on me daily, only to learn that in order for the abuse to end, I had to leave.

So, there's MY story. I am well aware of what pain, rejection, and humiliation looks like at the hands of so-called "christians." I have not been physically raped, but I have been emotionally abused by the very people I was sent to to help.

Do I blame God for what happened to me? Absolutely not. But I discovered that if I stayed, things would not get any better for me. Getting away was the best - no, it was the ONLY thing I could do to end the cycle of abuse.

(note: This is MY story. I am not telling you what you should or should not do. I am not telling you what you should or should not think. I am simply sharing my experiences, hoping that it might connect with anyone who reads this.)

for taking the time to offer your expertise and good humor on this subject. Comments and compassion like yours are the real reason that many of us have liberal and compassionate belief sytems, although we may no longer be "practicing" Christians, in the official sense, but try to walk on a positive path with respect for all others.

I was raised Catholic and although I am no longer active in the church, many of the positive values and beliefs in peace, tolerance, kindness, care for others and social justice that I learned there still inform large parts of my life. And simply because gravely misguided people such as fundies have taken many positive aspects of a number of religions, and despoiled and misinterpreted their teachings, is no reason that all religion should be seen as evil or disparaged.

If I have brought joy and laughter to you, then I have accomplished something worthwhile today. :)

Are you a published theologian? You'd make a great apologist.

The feeling's mutual. :hug:

BTW: Is "elshiva" what I think it is? "The God of Shiva?"

Back at ya.:hug: :loveya:

elshiva= El (Ancient Canaanite God which is a protype for Israelite God)+
shiva (Hindu God).

The old 'gentle Jesus, meek and mild' doesn't fly too well these days. He was much more a fiery radical than he was a liberal. He had some genuinely enlightened views...and he also had a hell of a temper, as when he threw the money-changers out of the temple, or the time he refused to see his mother and family (they were pressuring him to stop his ministry, which made him really angry), or the contemptuous way he treated his disciples, whom he often viewed as a bunch of stupid clods.

Those of us who question his divinity see no reason to treat him or his followers with kid gloves, other than basic manners. But when your faith is ridiculed, you might give a little thought to those of us who are BOMBAREDED with this shit all the time in this country. You think you have it tough? Try being an atheist in this country. Or a buddhist. Or a follower of Islam. Try believing in ANY other god than the Christian one and tell me if it's any easier than the ridicule you've experienced.

If you're going to parade your hurt feelings for all to see, I'm going to laugh at you for the weakness of your faith.

That doesn't sound very progressive to me.

I don't know Hardhead's background, but I can tell you that a LOT of people are seriously harmed
by their experiences with organized religion and/or followers.
Some can get past it, some can't. I have to a certain extent,
but I still don't like to even be around people praying; I still get panic attacks.

Because he thinks he beliefs trump my right to say what I please about his precious Jesus.

He's going to tell us he's offended when we laugh at Jesus? I'm offended at the mere mention of Jesus anymore. I'd gladly hang out with Jesus for a year if I never had to deal with any of his fucking followers ever again.

but you're not answering them.

Why should I treat your culture and beliefs with any more respect than your total culture (which includes murderous fundamentalists who have killed my fellow atheists in the last 12 months) treats mine?

I will tell you that the only reasons I do treat other human beings better than they have treated me is through self-preservation of myself and my culture and because I was trained from childhood to treat others as I wish to be treated. The first reason is because should I do anything that is even vaguely immoral - even if Christians engage in it on a daily basis - is immediately laid at the feet of my atheism. It's just not worth the hassle to me to misbehave and have it come back and bite other atheists.

Consider it: We atheists always have to live at 110% and we get no praise for it. Christians, in general, can live at 30%, but repent publicly and be considered far better than we ever were. Sorry, but my Christian forebears taught me that forgiveness comes through faith, penance and good works. I rarely see more than the first out of most Christians.

Please, try living our lives for a while - living in a world where everyone assumes that you're Christian and welcome their prayers, their invitations for Bible Study, potlucks and services, where your own beliefs (or lack thereof) are considered intrinsically lesser, automatically. Where your holidays are never celebrated. Where, to take your holy day off means you lose a day of vacation pay. Where you are told you are wrong to think as you do from the first hour of school to the day you get married, to the day you die. Please try to think what it would be like for you if the situations were reversed and then tell me I have no right and no cause to be angry.

You said:
"We atheists always have to live at 110% and we get no praise for it. Christians, in general, can live at 30%, but repent publicly and be considered far better than we ever were. Sorry, but my Christian forebears taught me that forgiveness comes through faith, penance and good works. I rarely see more than the first out of most Christians."

Here, is my religion as I understand it (your actual mileage my vary)

I am forgiven through grace. This frees me from the fear of death (the so called wages of sin) Free from the fear of death I am therefore available to live life at your 110% (or even higher).

I hears a great analogy once. You are playing football on a plateau atop a tall mountain. Off either end zone and all along the sidelines is a thousand foot drop. To runn off the fiels would be certain death. As a Christian you know that there's a safe, comfortable net just a few inches below the edge. The other team does not. You can play "full out" because you know that if you stray over the edge, the net is their to catch you.

Sounds like you are saying that you are superior because of your religion/religious beliefs.

I'm saying I'm freer, less encumbered by worry, perhaps happier.

You really must not know many atheists/agnostics.

...makes me feel superior? I work in radio...I know a bunch pf atheists agnostics. I'm sorry if you're offended. I was just stating that I was a happier more fulfilled person that I used to be. As I stated your actual mileage may very.

If you are content, I'mm happy for you. Just telling you my story.

That's pretty much what I'm asking for. I find it personally insulting when someone ridicules what I believe. It is not good manners to ridicule someone to her face. It also makes an argument personal; it's pretty close to a personal attack. BTW, I rarely post about religion on DU (except in religion forums), I just get fed up with the way folks get treated when they express anything positive about God.

I understand what you're saying about not being a Christian in this country as it is today. But I believe the fundies perpetrating this atmosphere would condemn progressive Christians almost as quickly as they would atheists. They would say that our God is not the true God because it's not God as they choose to believe in him.

I'm offended by lots of things in this world, but you don't hear me whining about it.

Sound harsh? Sorry--but this whole "I'm offended" line is quite tiresome. Of course, that borders on whining so... ;)

B-)

I don't bother commenting most of the time. I just finally decided to say something about it.

"Turn the other cheek" really doesn't mean what you apparently think it means. Probably just the opposite, actually.

for reference, see:

Dennis Linn, et. al., Don't Forgive Too Soon: Extending the Two Hands That Heal (New York, Paulist Press, 1996).

Walter Wink, Engaging the Powers: Discernment and Resistance in a World of Domination (Minneapolis, Fortress Press, 1992).

But I see it constantly on DU regarding just about any type of person you can think of. And it's gotten to the point that no one can say anything about any other group--except Christians. Only when people express Christian beliefs are people free to shit on them. So I thought I'd throw my two cents in on this issue.

Actually, "offended" was not exactly the right word for me to use, it was just the best word to get the point across in the short length given to subject lines. The more accurate words to express my reactions would probably be annoyed or pissed.

But some of the groups that are disparaged have had a long history of being persecuted, bashed, abused, etc. There is a difference here. Christianity is the leading belief system in the US and the West as a whole. This dominant role (even in secular societies) comes with disadvantages, true, but the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages. Hence my "suck it up and deal."

Thanks for the opportunity to clarify.

If I am going to have to listen to whining from others, then I won't hold my tongue and pretend like I don't matter. I can't believe a group of people who pretty much form a clique that gangs up on atheists and people from other religions routinely would turn around and tell members of a discussion board not to discuss something.

1. "Plastic Jesus" (sittin' on the dashboard of my car)?

2. Jeezus?

3. KKKristians?

If so, maybe you shouldn't be. People on DU, like me, using those words are referring to the wacko right-wingnut fundie/rapture type of hateful assholes who pervert the teachings of Jesus for their own narrow political purposes.

I was brought up in the Catholic Church, and have given up on it, not for a lapse of spirituality, but because of what I see as the current corruption of the Vatican. I'm not sure I'm even "Christian" any more, because I hate what the fundies have done to that word. The Jesus I always thought I knew would be driven to tears by what I've witnessed during my lifetime, especially since * was selected to act as a squatter in the Oval. So call me a renegade Catholic all you want, I am still not offended by any DU posts critizing "Christians" in general, because right now in America, that word symbolizes what is worst with the Repuke culture in America.

I'm not so much offended as annoyed or pissed when people make their disparaging remarks. "Offended" was just a short way to get point across in the short length of the subject line.

I was also brought up Catholic. I stopped going go church in college and never went back. I just got back to Jesus and joined a UCC church a few years ago. It's unfortunate that the RW fundies have come to define the word "Christian" at this time because they certainly do not define it. I think progressive churches are trying to take the word back and I hope they do. Since I am a Christian, I get upset by seeing fellow progressives lumping all Christians together under the fundie definition--that ain't me. Progressives of all stripes, atheists and Christians, have to work together to take our country back, and in order to do that we have to respect each other.

But as long as the bible belt, the "beltway", and the MSM spews constant right wing-nut perverted "KKKristian" crapola, I am not about to identify myself as a "Christian" even if I believe Jesus is God, which I was never absolutely positive about to begin with - just brought up to believe it for awhile. I'm a social/political "progressive" also, don't lump all Christians under the fundie definition either, and have been bashed repeatedly here for supporting Howard Dean, because I think everyone of every stripe needs to work together to take our country back. I don't mind. I've learned to grow a thick skin.

I agree with what you originally posted about what Jesus stood for, and that's what I like about Jesus.

Really, I could give a rats ass.

But I never really hear anyone "disparage Jesus", just his so-called followers. Get a thicker skin.

I think Jesus can handle it, he is supposed to be a Messiah after all.

RL

and freedom's a thing too.

don't be offended, be thankful.

This is the face of your religion. This is what is seen. I'm sorry the Fundies have hijacked your religion, but calling out DU'ers is not going to help. The Fundies will still be there.

RL

I am offended by it. But I am not offended by your posting the picture of it.

I feel the same way. Why this kind of prejudice and ridicule is allowed here, I will never understand.

The need for people to ridicule others is a simple matter of their own insecurity. With those who ridicule Christianity, I think it's their way of "whistling past the graveyard".

Many nonChristians unfortunately react negatively to the Christian faith. Often just the mention of Jesus is enough to send some over the edge. This does not seem reasonable to those who see the teachings of Jesus as one of peace and humanity.

But to many that do not share their view of Jesus his followers have throughout history represented the source of hatred, oppression, and war. Even today fundamentalists cry out to rewrite the laws favoring their interpretation of their doctrine. Various sects oppose what many believe to be real social progress. People are hounded and even killed in the name of Jesus.

But this of course is not the fault of all Chrisitans. Many Christians support very progressive policies. They see defending the wall of seperation as just as important as the most agitated atheist. And yet they are assailed as being the same as those that seek to tear down the wall.

But the trouble of this matter is that people of progressive positions tend not to try to evangelyze their beliefs. They believe that each person is entitled to their own belief. Because of this they remain silent while the fundamentalists vocalize their beliefs all day long.

The upshot of this is that the fundamentalists become the dominant representation of Christianity in our society. This combined with the darker pages of history create a situation where those that are targetted by the fundamentalists take that and return it to all that are associated with the public perception of the belief.

The only way to change this arraingement is to speak up for your beliefs. When someone represents Jesus in a way you disagree with you have to speak up too. When someone steps on another in the name of Jesus you have to be there to take their foot of their neck in the name of Jesus. If you are silent then you are complicit.

People are going to react to being villanized by the fundamentalists. They are going to strike back when they feel threatened. It is unfortunate that those who are not directly responsible for the oppression are attacked by association but one of Jesus' teachings comes into play here as well. If someone strikes you then turn the other cheek. If their argument is not with you then you have to make them see that. And you are not going to accomplish that by striking back at them or even by simply walking away.

Speak up. Show the world that there are those who are hijacking your saviour. Show the nonbelievers that not all believers are a threat to them. Show us all that you are there on the wall defending everyone's rights along with the rest of us.

We are all born blind and screaming into this world and it is only by working together that we stand a chance.

I nominate this as "post of the night."

I will return tomorrow and post a more thought-out response. But right now, I need to get to sleep. I've got a busy day ahead. :)

Thank you for your clarity.

That's all.

When discussing race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, religion, or other highly-sensitive personal issues, please exercise the appropriate level of sensitivity toward others and take extra care to clearly express your point of view.

Do not post messages that are bigoted against (or grossly insensitive toward) any person or group of people based on their race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, religion, lack of religion, disability, physical characteristics, or region of residence.

With regard to religion (or the lack thereof), Democratic Underground is a diverse community which includes Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, Atheists, Agnostics, and others. All are welcome here. For this reason, we expect members to make an extra effort to be sensitive to different religious beliefs, and to show respect to members who hold different religious beliefs. Members are permitted to discuss whether they agree or disagree with particular religious beliefs, provided that they do so in a relatively sensitive and respectful manner. But members should avoid posting broad-brush bigoted statements about people who hold specific religious beliefs. Members should avoid highly provocative postings, such as comparing religion to fairy tales or mental illness, or arguing that religion (or the lack thereof) is the source of most of the world's problems.

:D

my idea of TORTURE is a church service.

I am ALSO offended when I see the many, many conversations on this forum disparaging christianity and it's believers. Fundy republicans of course, excluded.

So, notmyprez, I can sympathize with you. I think it's incredibly narrow, juvenile, and just plain vicious some of the things I see on this board regarding christians and their "fantasy" life.

Spirituality is such a profound, deeply held, and personal part of someone's life - to ridicule something that's so meaningful to another is simply cruel. And for the fundies, it gives them just the excuse they need to climb up on the cross and cry "persecuted martyr".

Jesus walks into an inn, lays three nails on the counter and says to the innkeeper, "Can you put me up for the
night?

I seriously would like your opinion. I know some that get bend out of shape upon hearing this little joke.

let out a quick laugh while shaking your head and saying in a low voice, "Oof, that's bad." Well, that was my reaction.

Jesus walks into an inn, lays three nails on the counter and says to the innkeeper, "Can you put me up for the
night?

I don't find that joke particularly offensive, but I do think it's a ridiculous premise. But no more offensive than this one I've told myself...

Jesus and Moses were fishing on the Sea of Galilee and talking about old times. Moses was having no luck with traditional fishing methods, so he got an idea. "Hey Jesus! Remember this trick?"

And Moses parted the sea, and then got out of the boat and grabbed all the fish flopping around in the exposed sea bottom that he could carry.

After Moses restores the waters, Jesus said "Yeah, that was pretty cool, but you remember when I did this?".

Jesus gets out of the boat and begins walking on water, but sinks after a few steps. After Moses helps him back into the boat, He says " I don't get it. I mean I know it's been 2000 years since I last did that, but I can't believe I forgot how"

Moses thought for a minute and said "Well, the last time you did that you didn't have those holes in your feet!"

Now I DO know some people who would be offended by that joke. Probably every last one of those hysterical freaks in Florida, but then they think Randall Terry is a prophet, and that God speaks through a coke snorting, drunk driving, warmongering chimpanzee.

Believe me, those idiots, and the fools who command them are an embarrasment and an insult to any true believer in Jesus Christ, and though I try not to speak for Them, I would imagine that Jesus and His Dad are embarrassed by them as well.

as a believer, which you start by saying you are, can i ask you what your non-fundamentalist view is regarding the eventual fate of non-believers? if your church holds a position on this can you also share that? or of any other liberal/progressive/non-fundamentalist christians you may know?

i'd be curious to hear from any non-fundamentalist christians posting on this thread as well.