I would like to apologize to the Christians!

I am sorry that diversity of opinion causes you such distress.
That true facts to support the origination of Easter have been met with Ire.
That a mere questioning, QUESTIONING, of your religious foundation is called into doubt depite the history and facts that surround it. That non-christian opinons are, and ALWAYS apparantly will be met with fury and anger (and apparently the wrath of the moderators). That the truth hurts.
That the open-ness that we all hope to be a part of the new America are met with the same old whining that they are discriminated against.
I am truely sorry.
I am sorry more for the Christians, than for the rest of us.
Our beliefs seem solid, and we are willing to be understood, argued with and dicussed, rather than a blind gag-rule on that which doesn't hold Jesus and his bloody death and supposed ressurection in the highest regard.
This is not a Christian Nation. Jefferson himself said that "the separation of Church and State is vital to any democracy."
You can all delude yourselves, and claim to be for open and honest government...but at long as you use the bible as your source of morality, you do a dis-service to Democracy. And you continue to put zealots in charge of our government.
It is time for America to wake up, and quit using fairy tales to explain our current condition.
It is HUMANITY...and the best thing HUMANITY can do is to learn from history. Real history...not just biblical history.
I hope every christian on this board is rewarded with their own personal heaven.....
however what you are creating is a hell on earth for the rest of us.
It is long over-due to send the "hell" back where it came from.
He's your God...they are your rules...you burn in hell...because the rest of us don't have time for it...we are trying to save democracy in America.
Jesus is so mis-represented in this world. He would tell the Pope, the Terri Shiavo petitioners, all of us to find our own path...and to know that "those who aren't against us are for us." and that those "those who are not for us are against us."
Those quotes (both of them) are from the un-erring word of God....these quotes and 50 cents will buy you a cup of coffee...but they will not buy you a trip to heaven!
Open you mind, or close your mouth!

Coyul
(Southern Baptist Minsiter since 1982)

interesting thoughts coming from a person of that denomination....

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Spent three years at the Southern Baptist Seminay in Louisville. Declined scholarships to Wake Forest and Baylor, because I belive a public education is more vital to America than a parochial one.
ANd as I have nmentioned in other posts, I read the whole Bible...the ending...much like a mushroom or acid trip...does not support the premise of the rest of the book.
Jesus associated with prositutes, with the poor, with the sick, with those that society didn't think deserved the right to be near the "savior."
I am not making this up...the Bible tells us the truth anyway...look it up youselves, but all the whining makes fools out of every Christian who walks the earth....why propetuate the notion.
Get over it.
Jesus was a radical, against the church...any money changers out there? He'd kick you ass, right out of the church.
The Bible also says, don't be like the Pharisees who pray out loud so that others can hear them.
God speaks in a "still small voice".
Quit screaming and let your faith do the talking...if you can rely on your faith enough that is.
C

Christians. Why are you attacking us?

..on the rest of Christianity. If it takes this to wake you from your slumber...then so be it.
But the "What Would Jesus do?" mentality has led us to this place in history...and needs to be stopped. <---Period

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signed by progressive Christians about the anti-gay amendment in Kansas (50 ministers were opposed to this amendment, saying Christianity teaches tolerance).

We of liberal religious sects can let our voices be heard-however the media chooses what to publicize and what to ignore. I know this is so because even here very few DUers have heard about what American Sufis are doing to create harmony amongst the faiths here.

How can you claim to be a Christian when you don't believe in the resurrection? A lot of people have read the bible, that doesn't qualify you to call yourself a minister.

And....how did you get through 3 years of Seminary School and still have such deplorable spelling?

I do feel worse for us though still. We have to deal with them.

You're "sorry more for the Christians, than for the rest of us." And you're also a Southern Baptist Minister.

:wtf:

Hard to tell how to respond to such a broad brush of condemnation in the guise of an apology when I don't even know where you're coming from.

My thoughts exactly.

I am sorry that diversity of opinion causes you such distress.

Horseshit straw man. It is not diversity of opinion that causes ire, but the fact that thanks to assholes like Bush and his crew, it is acceptable to piss on Christians as if we are all cut from the same mold.

That true facts to support the origination of Easter have been met with Ire.

Whose true facts? That perhaps the guy did not rise from the dead? That Constantine completely changed the religion because it served his political power play? True facts are there for the interpretation, but perhaps it is the spirit of Easter - sacrifice and selflessness - that deserve more respect than they have gotten.

That a mere questioning, QUESTIONING, of your religious foundation is called into doubt depite the history and facts that surround it. That non-christian opinons are, and ALWAYS apparantly will be met with fury and anger (and apparently the wrath of the moderators).

Non-Christian opinion offered with respect are not met with fury. Post like this, filled with self-serving overblown rhetoric designed only to insult and attack a whole group of people, however, will in fact raise some tempers.

That the truth hurts.

Here's some truth that'll hurt: I dare you to write a similar post attacking Judaism or Islam. You won't, because thanks again to George and the boys, Christians are a worthy target for so-called liberals who like to talk about respecting religious and secular diferences but all too often fall far short of that goal.

That the open-ness that we all hope to be a part of the new America are met with the same old whining that they are discriminated against.

If your opinions and the manner in which you present them are an example of the kind of 'openness' you'd like for America, color me Canadian.

Our beliefs seem solid, and we are willing to be understood, argued with and dicussed, rather than a blind gag-rule on that which doesn't hold Jesus and his bloody death and supposed ressurection in the highest regard.

See above. Give respect and get respect.

This is not a Christian Nation. Jefferson himself said that "the separation of Church and State is vital to any democracy."

99.9% of the Christians on this board would completely agree with you on that, so I am not sure what your point is. This isn't a Falwell message board.

You can all delude yourselves, and claim to be for open and honest government...but at long as you use the bible as your source of morality, you do a dis-service to Democracy. And you continue to put zealots in charge of our government.

Find me a Bush voter here. Find me someone who would supplant the separation doctrine with Christian rule. The Bible is an excellent source of moral direction if read properly, if the archaic crap is done away with, and if you understand that Jesus stood for what most of us here stand for - justice, peace, sacrifice and love. That's a good basis upon which to build a life.

It is time for America to wake up, and quit using fairy tales to explain our current condition.

Comparing someone's personal religion to a 'fairy tale' is grossly insulting.

It is HUMANITY...and the best thing HUMANITY can do is to learn from history. Real history...not just biblical history.

Again, 99.0% of DU Christians would agree with you here...so what's your point?

I hope every christian on this board is rewarded with their own personal heaven.....

Thanks. Here's to hoping you can keep your mouth shut when we get there.

however what you are creating is a hell on earth for the rest of us.

I am? Me personally? By being a Christian I am making a hell on earth for you? How, exactly am I doing that?

He's your God...they are your rules...you burn in hell...because the rest of us don't have time for it...we are trying to save democracy in America.

My fucking hero.

Jesus is so mis-represented in this world. He would tell the Pope, the Terri Shiavo petitioners, all of us to find our own path...and to know that "those who aren't against us are for us." and that those "those who are not for us are against us."

Again, 99.9% of the people here you attack and insult would agree with you.

Open you mind, or close your mouth!

Take your own advice.

You, unfortunately like many, read only what I have presented...there are lines between lines...and sometimes to keep from crossing the lines, you must cross some specific lines...
In order for us to have a clear and informative discussion we must look beyond the issue...and see the motivation behind it...and keep it from being tombstoned.
Write me if you have a specific issue to discuss...if not just watch the display...
C

I'd put forward that having a "clear and informative discussion" requires being clear and informative in the first place.

If you want to play games without first announcing that you're playing one, count me out.

There are a lot of folks with seminary if not minister/priest background on this board.

The fellow appears to be uniformed.

If he thinks he is not he should jump into the Catholic Forum and we will discuss. It should not take more than a couple of posts to make the case he wants to make - or he makes the case he should be put on ignore.

BTW- I love Will's response - including the "whatever"

:-)

you want to piss off the Christians at DU by lumping all Christians together as fundies when you know how pissed off liberal Christians are at the extemists.

nice try ..

...light a fire under your ass so you can reclaim Christianity from the Right-wing.

You refer to yourself as a Southern Baptist minister, yet you continue to refer to Christians in the third person.

Are you, or are you not, a Christian?

It's a simple question. I don't care what your answer is, either way; I just want to understand where you're coming from.

Bake

judge all religions, finding them all wanting except (surprise surprise) your own?

Those who judge others will find their own yardstick used against them on the day they face the King. And that, my friend, is a fundamental ('scuse the use of the word, DU!) premise in EVERY Christian sect.

FYI-- yes, I am a Christian.

I am not going to fight those fundie retards about their extremism and how they are preverting the Christian beliefs - but I will fight their attempts to push their beliefs into the govt or on others.

It is their freedom in this country to believe their whacked out version of Christianity (which I believe doesn't really qualify as true Christian beliefs since it so twisted.) But what I think of what they believe doesn't matter as long as we have freedom of religion in this country.

If you want to talk about fighting for the separation of church and state then that's a difference story. I do believe the fundies are trying to get into govt and that should be fought.

However, freedom of religion in this country protects those I disagree with and as much as I detest their hard core beliefs, as a true believer in the Constitution I have to uphold their right to believe in what they want as long as they keep it separate from the government and my rights.

What else can one read? This is a message board. We can't hear the nuances and inflections in your voice and we can't read your body language. In this medium we are forced, except when dealing w/ very well-known regulars (which I don't think you are), to accept words at face value.

My opinion? I think you started this thread as flame bait ("just watch the display?" :eyes:). If so: shoo.

...is worth the ticket don't ya think?

Why why why would someone who claims to be a Southern Baptist minister attack all of Christendom on Easter Sunday? Although I am a Christian, I have NEVER attacked any DUer based on his/her religious beliefs or non-beliefs. It's all about mutual respect, which appears to be in need of a feeding tube here at DU.

Coyul, I spent 4 1/2 years at Southern Seminary, 1976 - 1980. If you're really who/what you claim to be, PM me and tell me when you were there, and if you've got the cohones, your real name. Mine is David Baker. I have to say, though, I'll be quite surprised to hear from you.

Bake

This post is a joke.

For being capable of writing this kind of tripe.

Thanks.

Are they making anything there?

Dare to criticise Christians and you get jumped on, by those "distressed" by criticism.

...with the same brush, regardless of whether my faith is involved or not.

You don't really support stereotyping, do you?

Such marvelous liberal credentials we are burnishing.

I'll look for the broad-brush condemnation of all Jews come Passover, and broad-brush condemnation of all Muslims come Ramadan.

I'll expect to see you at the front of the line.

Muslims and Jews and Pagans, and virtually everyone else is allowing the debate to continue without the hostility or distress that apparently is just hand-in-hand with Christianity...I would love to be wrong here Will...but the thread itself tends to prove me correct.
I never wished that I was wrong more than I do at this moment. When someone of your intelligence and experience, can't see the lose-lose situation that is continually repeated here by the Christian Majority.
Your factual statements earlier are not commented on, only the emotional responses to my post....does that not say something to you?
It soes to me...that I hit a nerve...one those who are confident in their religion won't react to.

C

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Those of us who are liberal Christians don't have a problem with mutual respect or with discussion of ideas, even those that question our beliefs. The biggest thing I learned at Southern Seminary, your claimed alma mater, is that we should ALWAYS question and examine our beliefs, presuppositions, etc.

What you did was simply insult a large group of people, including those here at DU. It was flame bait, pure and simple, and the fact that some people responded in kind doesn't prove your point (whatever it was in the first place).

Bake

...what I did was to give motivation and teeth to the real Christians out there (read:Liberal) to be prepared to fight the fight that has yet to come...to believe what they believe despite what some lunatic(me) has to say.
Sometimes growing pains hurt....but they are there for a reason.

Coyul

a dog, it's not motivated to come the next time you call it. :hi:

you can continue to post crap. Right. There are all kinds of people in this world. I prefer not to judge. :hi:

"A man kicks a dog. Then he says, 'Look, the dog is vicious, for it bites.'"

All you are doing is kicking Christians, provoking them to anger by insulting them, and then saying it is a normal reaction for them--and of course, blaming them for not having the strength of religion to just ignore you.

Even more amazingly, you state that ONLY Christians would meet hostility with hostility, because every other religious group is happy to continue with the marvelous dialogue=== of how awful those Christians are. Of course, anyone else that had been the subject of the simpleminded, broad brush piece that was the OP would have had the same reaction, because you meant to provoke. Muslims, jews, Texans, vegetarians, and left handers would have risen to the flamebait.

But only in DU could an anti-christian actually pat himself on the back for stereotyping. Bah.

and amazed that a fake thought he could pull it off.

I have been on this board since March of 2001...I have been a Democratic fund-raiser for 20, yes that's, 20 years. I was at the Womens march on Wahington...met Skinner and Elad, Lynnsinn and the rest of the Crew. I am not a freeper...I am merely stating that we can't have an intelligent discussion of religion wihtout emotions interfereing....once again seem to be proving my point without actually trying.
And as to the Jews and the Muslims.....havn't had one of them at my door...EVER.
They are not attempting to skew districts to allow more Jewish of Muslim voters.
That is a red state thing....Uber-Christianity as it were.
C

I don't see that happening in the responses. :hi:

and, as a non-Christian, I see myself more or less as an observer.

But I do feel the frustration of the progressive Christians who frequent this board, because although many, many churches and individual Christians are doing things to show their opposition to Bush and the extreme religious right, their words and actions are NOT reported on mainstream media. As a Sufi initiate (and very progressive Muslim)I have found that getting out information about progressive Islam is very very difficult-even here. People just don't know what is going on because Faux and CNN and their clones aren't interested in showing that many religious folk are tolerant, forgiving, and believe that government and religion should be seperate.

I was there, and I'll know if you're faking it. Or actually, if you really had any balls, you'd do it here.

I think you are lying. Prove me wrong.

Bake

calls on the liberal christians to fix the conservative christians.

(scratches head) wouldn't the orignal poster be in a better position, as a minister of a conservative denomination, to reach out and change conservative christians?

consider that liberal christians don't have a great deal of contact with fundamentalists, and are immediately labeled as heretics for being tolerant of others. Liberal christians are not really in a position of relative influence.

but Coyul, on the other hand, should be preaching to himself, and practice what he preaches. If, indeed, he is who he says he is, he should start this very sunday, preaching to his congregation that Jesus was an example of love, tolerance and compassion. He should start using his position of authority within the larger Southern Baptist Synod within his state to overturn nonchristian attitudes within the church. He should start immediately mobilizing his own congregation to start working within the community to bridge the gap between christians and non-christians.

interesting that, instead, we get the same accusatory empty rhetoric we get from people who are dismissive of christians in general.


I have a great deal of trouble matching the rhetoric to the purported profession of the orignal poster.

It is incongruous. And most obviously, flamebait.

...I was given the left foot of fellowship years ago because of my liberal beliefs, but once ordained in the Southern Baptist Church, always ordained...can't even get them to take me off the rolls...
My beliefs more accurately mimic the ministry of Jesus than most of the ministries alive today....
What does this say?
It says that this thread is actually preparing liberal Christians for the fight ahead of them....which is to protect Democracy and be open to differing ideas...no matter the cost!

C

That is all.

insulting and demeaning it is

Seems a trial by fire is what some need; to know that they can make a difference....even in their own Christian churches.

Jesus taught in parables...I try to teach through emotional reaction...now if I could just figure out how to turn water into wine....hmmmmm

to some it's shit to others it is a preparation for the rest of the future of Democracy....not Theocracy....Democracy... please read the whole post and the good it is doing, without a blanket judgement on my motivation!
Thanks
C

...those who believe what they believe because someone told them to. Have conviction for your principles or shut the hell up. If you are offended because I doubt what you believe...so what...who cares...believe it anyway and tell me to go to hell...but quit telling me what to beleive too....seems so simple really. But impossible for people who are wrapped in their emotion to the point where my condemnation causes them distress...which I believe is where we started.
C

This "teaching-through-emotional-reaction" system of yours seems to be failing miserably.

Me, I'll stick with learning through parables, thanks.

That's all this shit is. I can't believe anyone would post
something so ARROGANT. The attitude displayed by the OP is
pathetic.

And I don't believe this guy is a minister either.

I have opened an opportunity for discussion that was not previously available...learn or don't I don't particularly care...but you have missed the mission of this thread alltogether.....and I love you too!

Coyul

You have posted a bunch of worthless flamebait and PISSED everyone
off.

You have made NO opportunity for discussion. You started a fight
plain and simple.

If you can't see that I pity you.

Let's start singling out each faith and calling them out on their holy holidays!

My reasoning is they will be more receptive to ridicule then. I see our base of Democrats growing by millions in no time if we use this tactic.

Wiccans, I'm sorry but I missed Ostara can I make it up to you on Beltaine? We need your votes!

:eyes:

...that's just symantics...read my responses and you will have a better idea why I started this post.

History and all.....

You know, spelling and all...

Huh?

C'mon. I **was** at Southern Seminary. We might even be long-lost pals. Let's hear it. That is, if you were really there.

I personally knew and studied under Henlee Barnette, Frank Stagg, Wayne Ward, Clyde Francisco, Frank Tupper, Roy Lee Honeycutt, et al. Name me some of your professors, and some anecdote that shows you didn't just pull a name out of a catalog or off the net.

If you were really there, tell me what kind of trees are in the front lawn of the administration building (I know the name of the building, do you?). That's one of the nicknames for the campus.

Or tell me the name everybody called the quadrangle in the middle of the campus. Tell me the name of the mummy in the archaeological museum (or just tell me WHERE the museum IS). These are all easy ones, that anybody who was there for three years would know. I've been gone from SBTS for 25 years, but I easily remembered them. Do you?

You can't, can you. Therefore, I call BULLSHIT.

Bake

FWIW.

Flamebait.