I have a bad feeling that if the Pope dies, we are in for exponentially

worse religious flamewars. I am donning my fireproof suit now!

I am committing to all of you Lounge lizards that I will strive to not be reactionary (as an ex-Catholic pagan!)

for that very reason. I'll probably be in a church somewhere praying anyway.

and possibly putting people on ignore...have not had to yet, but I think it is going to get pretty hinky in here!

when he first went into the hospital. my ignore list grew that day.

It WILL get ugly, and heads will roll.

it certianly wasn't in february for the last Pope wars.

Really. This will be different.

I hope.

Despite his conservative views, and despite the way he has negatively impacted social progress, he's a nice old guy and has had some positive impact. We could have had worse, and soon will. I hate JPII's policies in many respects, but I like the man, mostly.

I'll let others bash him. I have better people to bash. Like Falwell.

I appreciate that, I hope we get a good pope who isnt opus dei, thats my fear as a Catholic.

It will be a conservative, probably old (they Cardinals don't want another long Pontificate) - this is why people are talking about Card. Ratzinger again.

gotta give it up to a poetry writing pope

I also agree with the rest of your post.

one's disagreements on major policy issues "bashing"?

It is my pet peeve on DU. The term "bashing" generally is a back-formation from the term "gay-bashing" which involved actual bats meeting actual heads. I have friends who have been bashed. It does not compare to having somebody disagree with your church's policy positions.

It isn't bashing to disagree with his policy decisions, but, JEEZ, give it some air already, huh?

I've just read your thread, and your reply posts in other threads, in GD, and while, I must admit, you've made your points without bigotry etc, I still have to say, give it some air.

The OP of this thread is exactly right, and you and I both know that there will be any number of DUers who are positively drooling at the opportunity to 'bash' the Pope when he dies, and say the most vile things they can come up with in their internet anonymity.

Yeah, yeah, use the hide feature, I know.

My point is, though, using a little common courtesy and human decency is just as easy.

There are a lot of DUers who will be grieving in a personal way when the Pope dies, and I sincerely hope that compassion hasn't become just a buzz word for the RW.

-chef-
(who, for the record, spoke out against the Reagan 'bashing' when he died too)

what does that mean? Does it mean "shut up"?

Sorry, I won't.

I think what I'm trying to say is, repetetive postings come very close to trying to stir the pot.

I do believe I said you made your points without bigotry, etc...but continuing to reply over and over again, in almost every thread I've read so far about the Pope, about how you feel personally offended by his stance on gay issues, among other things, is only going to help fan the inevitable flames.
In all fairness, I would say the same to anyone else doing the same, just seems yours are the only posts repeating themselves over and over.

I understand fully your disdain for this Pope, and as a woman, I agree with you about his regressive policies towards women, gays and contraception, just to name a few.

How about trying to understand the grief, that others are going to feel, just as much as you want them to understand your dislike of, and disagreement with, this Pope???

I think dancing on someones (impending) grave says more about the person doing it than even the worst things that person can think to say about the (almost) deceased.

-chef-

can you find ONE post that meets that criterion? Just one?

No, you can't. A fair person would apologize for that characterization.

The impending death of a world leader is a perfect time for reflection on that leader's history, deeds, and policies. I'm sorry you're tired of reading my opinion. Are you equally tired of reading the Papal defenders in all those same threads? I doubt it.

First of all....You've gotten snide with me in both your replies and I hardly think I've done the same to you.

Secondly... I NEVER accused you of dancing on his grave. I was making an observation, therefore, I will not apologize for YOUR mistake.

Thirdly... YES, I'm equally tired of hearing the die hard defenders of this Pope.

You very conveniently chose to overlook the part of my post in which I plainly said I agreed with you about his policies, most likely because then you couldn't feel justified in getting your feathers ruffled at me personally.

You're clearly pushing an agenda about this man, and because the title of this thread had to do with the OP's fear of things getting ugly here when he does die, I do believe this is the wrong thread for you to continue in that endeavor.

I guess when I asked you to consider other peoples' grief at this time, you didnt see how that could be just as important to them as airing your tweak is to you.

Thank you for making my earlier point, better than I ever could have, about the need for common courtesy and human decency.

At the risk of being manipulated into doing the same thing I'm taking issue with you about, I wont reply to you further on this subject.

-chef-

and I don't care to continue this subthread. Pretending you did NOT refer to me in your earlier post is disingenuous.

The Pope was against the war and he let Bush know about it. I give him credit for that.

(ex-Catholic here)

Sigh I just hope it turns out ok.

but I don't see how the pope's death would be any different from Jerry Falwell's death. I don't see a lot of difference between a reactionary Catholic and a reactionary Baptist.

the other one, despite his many failings, has tried to speak for peace.

:applause:

I dont agree all that he stands for but I think he has done some good, he has tried to recouncil the rift between the Catholic and Orthodox branches of the church which have been fighting since 1054, he I believe apologized for the church's silence during the second world war during the holocaust. I believe he himself was also a nazi resistance fighter.

He was the first pope to speak in a mosque. That is important and it shows a respect for Islam. He also has a great respect for Jews maybe because he was and is so anti-nazi.

I'll be the first to admit that he isn't so hot on the social issues but there are some things he done that some popes would have never done.

once brought slides of the pope's mosque trip. It was in Damscus and Imam Arafat is a Syrian so it meant alot to him (the imam was there).

it's all in what you want to see.

Many people I like and respect, including you, think he's a good man with a good heart who has done good.

I see a man who spent his last weeks condemning people like me simply because of who we love. I see a man who with a single statement could alleviate the suffering of millions by allowing reasonable family planning. I see a man who was actively involved in sheltering pedophiles from justice. I see a man who has dismantled one of the few GOOD political movements of the church - liberation theology. I see a very conservative, very powerful man who has done little to actually improve people's lives.

I really wish the church would change its views on stuff like that too. I understand where you're coming from and I am glad I have your respect, you have mine despite our differences on religious issues. BTW just so you know dookus, I don't get offended by your mock runs for pope, they're actually pretty funny at times.

in exchange for a loosening of restrictions against worship of all religions in the Soviet Union. Pretty crafty but he gets little credit for bringing down the Soviet Union and he started it.

but i will. :eyes:

If you want to respectfully criticize the pope, you can do it. Just be respectful and don't insult, is all.

:hi:. I am actually too tired to get into a discussion this evening but I appreciate you kindness tonight and the other night.

:toast:

:hug:

:hug:

I know because no one feels persecuted yet.

There may be people who aren't "through with" me yet, I imagine. You are right though. It is a bit more civil tonight.

Just as long as we realize that we disagree, and yes it is more civil tonight since I dont see any name calling or anything.

We JUST disagree on the issue, nothing more. I, more than anyone, WISH I could believe in something, but it's just not in my nature. I like results I can't seem to get and that's that. I'm LIKE that. I wish more people GOT my sense of humor sometimes too. It'll all work out and get happy around here again. I think it will any how.

I havent been religious my whole life honestly, and I think we need to realize that when we have these feuds that we do have more in common than we don't. I'd rather hang out with a bunch of athiests/agnostics than fundies who believe the world is gonna end because of abortion, gay rights, etc.

We get all irritated with each other, but then there are those times when we come right back and back each other up. Oddly enough, when I fight like cats and dogs with some Christians on DU, there are Christians who will step in from time to time and show compassion. That's what I want to find and highlight so I can maybe find some way to make the whole DU group tighter. It's working in some ways. There are those that don't get that though.

but as you see, agree with their histocial anaylis of the cold war.

not inflame my hot buttons. And that is one topic where I seem to have hot buttons all over the place. I don't know how it is that you can do that so easily, but it speaks volumes. I wish everyone on both sides of the religion issue could see that.

two off that my religion is not and nor will it ever be perfect, and motst importantly, I can get along with someone despite not agreeing on something like this.

that would be perfect. It'd be nice if this thread became a consensus of what we can manage if we find a way to overcome the bickering. I DO want to TRY. And I feel it's important to start by pointing out that there are quite a few on here who have it together. I think you are one. Who knows? Maybe you could play a major role in leading at least the majority out of the flamewars...

My best solution to flamewars is to act like an a sillyass, sure I look immature but oh well. I am off to bed.

Maybe something good can happen. :)

and I resent that. I don't find it terribly peaceful.

But I think in many other ways he is a good man.

not whether he's a good man. I don't know him so I can't say. But his PUBLIC positions are reprehensible, imo, and I sincerely don't understand how liberals can support them.

1. He is an outspoken proponent for peace.
2. He has the power to excommunicate a lot of Democratic politicians. A lot of cases have been brought to him by repukes including ones against Kerry and Teddy Kennedy, but the pope does not do it.
3. Some liberals are Catholic and respect the office. (I am Anglo-Catholic and I was taught to respect his office, but that I was not bound by his statements on ethics.)

1) I suppose. He spoke out against the war. So did I. So did Robert Novak. So did Pat Buchanan. So did a lot of people. Speaking out is easy. Did he encourage the bishops to excommunicate the war-mongers? Did the priests urge people to vote against Bush because of the war? No they did not. But they DID do all that against Kerry for his position on abortion.

2) Because he did NOT excommunicate liberals, I'm supposed to find that admirable? I don't see it.

3) I respect the office of the presidency, too, but I think George W. Bush is a fuckwad, and I encourage people to speak out when he does wrong.

A lot of popes, especially during the middle ages, excommunicated anyone who ticked them off. Yes, he could have done more but he could have been worse. A lot of Catholics are expecting even so one EVEN more conservative as pope next time.

You are correct about respecting the office, if not its current occupant.

Thank you very much for your thoughtful posts, Dookus. This is DU at its best, attacking the argument, not the poster.

Peace and I hope you find Molly, your cat.

regarding Molly. I hope I find her soon, too.

I guess I don't really see the argument that compares this pope to medieval popes. I think it's more reasonable to compare him to the times in which he lives.

No argument that the middle ages are different than now, but people will always be people. As a pope, it is fair game to compare him to other popes. All popes suffered temptations and a lot gave into them in worse ways than this pope.

but I bet he didn't actually *call* you evil. He may have called you a sinner, but he'd be the first to admit that he's a sinner too.

Anyway, I'm a practicing Catholic, and I gotta say that I disagree with you 100%.

First of all, not all Baptists give a shit about Falwell. I don't think there's a single Catholic alive who doesn't at least give a little shit about the pope.

Anyway, I'm the first to admit that I don't like everything this pope has done, but at the same time, I do like a lot of what he has done. To me his a Clinton of a Pope - slightly more good than harm, but I pray for a more progressive pope the next time we have a go around, just like I vote for a more progressive president.

david

as evil. But he has called me and my brethren "intrinsically disordered" and part of a "system of evil". I find it sad that an old man would spend the last moments of his life lashing out at gay people.

What has he done that's progressive. Something not symbolic, but something real - something that actually improves people's lives. Are the poor better off? Are the sick better off? How many teens have committed suicide because they're gay and their church tells them they're "disordered"? How many pedophiles have been protected from justice? How many babies have been born, suffered short miserable lives, then died because the church won't allow reasonable family planning? How many women have died in childbirth because they were unable to control their own fertility?

No, I'm sorry - I don't see any net gain for humanity as a result of this Pope's positions.

and there I disagree. The poor have been given humanity and a name in large extent because of the pope, and the church. If you don't believe that Cathoic charities and catholic social work haven't done anything for the poor, then you really don't know much about what has been done, and that's understandable, because the media only covers the negatives and the power.

The pope has spoken out many, many, MANY times about the culture of the west and consumerism and the evils of capitalism.

As far as the rest goes, you're 100% correct and I don't make any apologies for them. The teachings of the church as far as reproductive rights go (wrt birth control and population) are DIABOLICAL, and I really seriously 100% mean that. They are EVIL and a HUGE net negative for the world.

That he spends ANY time talking about homosexuality when there are people starving to death in the world is absurd to the extreme. While I respect the right of any religion to create rules for its own members, to speak out generally is absolutely rediculous, and as far as homosexuality and birth control goes, I'd border on saying it's evil.

Anyway, I'm sorry to go on and I completely respect your views, even if I disagree with them wrt the pope.

david

does a lot to help the poor.

I would rather the church do something to stop making more poor people.

Now to that I simply cannot agree more!

:)

david

as well.

in the greater scheme of things.

:shrug:

catholics use birth control.

africa is woefully absent 'the church' and they are burgeoning with poor & ignorant multitudes...

:shrug:

i understand what you are saying, and it took this pope 600yrs to apologize for throwing the maya & their exquisite books into the flames. but the greater ignorance & poverty of men, women & children is presently being perpetrated by, what has been acknowledged in this thread below: a methodist = go figure

:shrug:

is one of the largest growth areas of the Catholic Church.

The same church that disallows the use of condoms even for people with HIV, where AIDS is the major problem Africa faces.

Let's look at Mexico, South America and parts of Asia where the church is ascendant. Women (and some men) who do NOT want to have more children are compelled to do so. That's horrific.

My grandfather was one of 18 children. 18. EIGHTEEN. Do you think that's reasonable? They were all poor. They all lived lives of desperation and poverty. I think it's horrific.

until they died...And the Catholic Church still encourages that. My maternal grandmother died at age 43, in part because her body gave out after birthing 10 children in 12 years.

condom use has nothing to do with the fact the big oil & diamond traders rampage for africa's resource, or that christians are being murdered routinely by muslims.

you don't want to have children? then don't have them. it is not horrific to do so. unless, of course, you find yourself on the other end of the midwife. or be more prepared to raise them.

http://desip.igc.org/malthus

but that's bullshit.

Don't bring in diamond trading or the oil industry. We're talking about family planning and the role of the church in that planning.

What is horrific, as I made very clear and you seemed to ignore, is the fact that "good" catholics CANNOT control whether or not to have more children.

The greatest perpetuator of poverty is NOT diamond traders - it's the fact that people have children for whom they cannot provide a healthy diet, decent medical care, and a good education.

We could end poverty in ONE generation if we ensured that every child born received those things. We cannot provide those things when people have far more children than they can afford to provide for.

is not to council child birth until the woman dies as has been alluded to in this thread. that is not mere; but utter bullshit. to fixate on condom use, as you are in the process of, as the only means by which people make themselves poor; or shall we say: decline to develop their potential, is to completely misunderstand.

you're not seeing the greater picture here.

My position has a few facets:

The church opposes condoms in all cases, even if the male has HIV. That is abhorrent. It directly causes pain, suffering and death for many.

The church opposes the use of any and all birth control. That is abhorrent. It turns women into breeding machines and refuses to acknowledge the realities of poverty and its causes.

Are you a man or a woman? In either case, would you happily raise as many children as you were able to create?

it is not advised. how can it be? don't take this down that road. there lies madness.

"would you happily raise as many children as you were able to create?"

gobbledygook!

my car will do some 160mph. i, personally, don't care what this or any pope tells me i council myself to rather not blow the crankshaft out the bottom.

don't confuse being unable to control your sexual urges against the will your wife with sitting in a raggedy house filled to the rafters with ignorant, bugger eating children. that's goofy...

please re-send.

don't much care for the message itself? cast them out as 'liberal'. accuse them of having 'a bias'. or being on dope. or being rude or whatever. you don't like that catholic church. i care less.

it's your eternity spend it as you will...

:shrug:

try to use full sentences, even paragraphs if you're up to it. I no longer understand what you're trying to say. I know you're being insulting and dismissive, but beyond that, you're not making sense.

the Church exerted far more power over its followers than it does today. Priests would often visit parishioner's homes, etc. Medical care some 45 years ago is not what it is today, and couples only having "natural family planning" or abstinence as their only forms of contraception was not only impractical, it was unrealistic. My grandmother's body literally quit on her as a direct result of bearing all those children, as proscribed by the Catholic Church. There was no way any doctor back then could have known that she would ultimately die an early death as a result. I missed out knowing a wonderful woman as a direct result of the Church's pigheadedness about the contraception issue. And yes, that makes me angry and sad.

I am no longer Catholic, and therefore have no say, and no interest, beyond what temporal power the office holds.

Besides, until there's a Pope that will recognize Pope Joan, I'm not interested in any of them.

Block which is much looked over in favor of Reagan.

or Margaret Thatcher.

In fact, I wasn't much of a fan of the Cold War altogether.

for ending the Cold War?

he spoke out against the soviets, and inspired many people. But the Cold War was ended as a result of many, many factors, chief among them a ridiculous arms race that impoverished much of the world.

Maybe we do. God, how embarassing, that the only way we could defeat a totalitarian regime was to outspend it on weapons of death.

I think I still have that JFK quote in my sig line. Had JFK not gone to Dallas on Nov. 22, 1963, I think we could have spent those trillions and trillions of $ cooperatively building a better future.

/sigh

I *fucking* hate Reagan, and Oswald and his cohorts

david

Edit: added explitive

the arms race didn't start with him. It started with Truman. Democrats and Republicans equally fought the cold war.

I'd give Gorbachev most of the credit for ending it.

broke the dams and spent us into $4,000,000,000,000.00 into debt to outspend the Soviets on building nuclear bombs.

I agree that Gorbachev was really the man who did it, but Reagan will get the credit, and spending TRILLIONS on nuclear weapons will go down in history as the way to defeat the enemy.

A shame, if we had spend $4T on food and technology the US and the USSR could be living in a dreamworld hardly imaginable, not to mention Africa could be actually living instead of starving to death.

Fucking Reagan.

david

Gorbachev showed a willngness to negotiate.

because I think he's great in some areas and horrible in others. I think the next pope will be even more conservative in the areas where this pope is very progressive.

I don't know if I'll survive it as a Catholic. I hope that there is a God and that he guides the conclave to choose a truly progressive pope in the vein of John XXIII, and in particular one who will over turn humanae vitae (sp?) and acknowledge the population bomb.

/prays incessantly

david

is or that one from Latin America. I would love one that had a libertation theology background that said.

I don't know who it was, but someone quoted an ancient addage (sp) and said that

"He who enters the conclave a pope, leaves it a cardinal".

I pray that's true of Ratzinger.

I don't think we'll go 2 in a row that are not from Italy, though, which is good, but PJPII has worked hard to promote conservative cardinals, which is a very, very bad sign.

david

I am not totally optimistic but I hold out hope that it wont be Ratzinger or someone connected to Opus Dei.

I seriously doubt I could stay Catholic more than a few years if it turned out to be someone truly conservative.

david

I sure am.

It blows my mind what one truly progressive pope could do for the world, and it freezes my bones to know what a conservative would do.

Please, please, please...

I have to admit that I think John Paul (I) would have been a true blessing for the entire world had ne not died 32 days (?) into his pontifficate.

david

I also hope they elect a more progressive Pope. The Church has internal issues that have caused many people much pain. A progressive Pope could go a long way toward healing Catholics everywhere.

I will put my energy into the pot for a progressive Pope.

I have no particular opinion of the Pope one way or the other. I agree on some matters and disagree with him on others.

I understand why many would dislike the Pope, but from what I've heard the next Pope could likely be even more conservative.

On certain issues, it's simply unlikely the Papacy or the Catholic Church will change its ways - abortion and birth control are two such areas. I understand the latter (though I may disagree), but the former I feel is ridiculous. At the minimum, it must atleast agree that condoms are an effective way of preventing disease. The distribution of them in African countries would undoubtadly save lives. Of course I also strongly disagree with their policies on homosexuality. I'm not expecting the church to recognize gay marriage, but it should atleast fight

But ultimately, I have little say on their policies. I'm not Catholic. Hopefully, DU's discussion regarding the Pope's legacy will be civil. Disagreements are inevitable and are a healthy part of this board. Hopefully no one will resort to insulting others' faiths.

Nobody's going to be able to blame "librul activist judges" for that.

However if the Pope AND Falwell both went out this week, that might be a little much.

...capitalize on this. Expect to see Bush leading a memorial procession on National TV. In fact, count on it.

since Bush is a Methodist.

a methodist?

:rofl:

now that's phunny

that when they were prepping him for politics, it was the faith they randomly decided for him to be born again in to.

though they should have made him a quaker/shaker ala nixon ala the more the ball of freaking confusion; as an as-such methodist, his passing disregard for temporal space-time is too obvious. his heart just ain't in 'that stuff' cause him are a leader, a prince among men cause that's what they told him's all along = bah humbug!

but i hear'ya on the pope thing. maybe the fed-ex pope like on conan maybe that...

United Methodist In Name Only.

And there are some who are trying to bring him (and Cheney) up on charges. There's a petition out there. (and yes, I signed it.)

Please don't hate Methodists because of the blivet!

My joke is that he chose your faith randomly.

Damn. When did the Lounge go getting all serious and tolerant? :P

Da Blivet is a member of one of the largest UMCs in TX. He is as religious as Ronnie Reagan was... someone prepped him on the lingo, and his speechwriters know what key words and MEMEs to add, but only attends church when he needs a boost in the polls.

Don't be surprised if they show him going to church Sunday.

the only exceptions being those without leaders, those in civil war who can't afford to have their leader leave, or maybe some of the more stricter Islamic nations.

...with thorns on his head....

I imagine he will be in the front row, just for being pres of the US and he'll be sitting next to the leaders of Italy, Britain, Germany, Russia, France, China, and Switzerland.

...but you can bet, he'll be sharing the limelight. Even expect some crocodile tears to go along with his shtick. And it will be broadcast 24/7 on FOX, with Bush shown the entire time. Before they're finished, Bush and the Pope will be synonymous.

if he were Catholic, I could see where you were coming from on Bush making a big PR event out of it. Remember this is the man who opened his campaign at one of the most notorious anti Catholic universties in the country.

...its called, capitalizing on Christ. And they want miss an opportunity. Catholics will be used to their agenda, just like anybody else. You're giving these goons too much credit. Think base politics here...

They are actually part of the democratic base. They actually were one of the key elements of the new deal coalition, believe me Bush's base of white evanglical christians really could car less about the pope. I know what you're saying but Bush's base as I said aren't Catholics, they are Evanglical Christians who are different than Catholics and probably won't be that affected by the pope's death.

...I was brought up in Southern protestant churches. Its the symbolism that the Pope represents. You're missing the point. Few Christians - protestants included - would deny that the Pope is the top symbol of the Christian church. Are you saying that Rove and Co. would not capitalize off of the top symbol of the Christian Church?....C'mon.....

but it won't work that well, I dont think. Its not like Bush and the Pope have been chummy.

...is that I know more conservative Catholics in the South, then I know otherwise. When I was younger growing up - I'm 41 - all my friends who were Catholics had pictures of JFK on their walls. Now, I find myself in constant arguments with Catholics here who belligerently defend the Repugs. In fact, its hard to differentiate them from the Southern protestants I argue with. I hope that the false weeping that Bush does over the Pope, doesn't create anymore converts....

Hell I live in the south too, and the other Catholics I know, their older generation was democrat but moved with the republicans with the dems becoming pro choice, northern catholics though still remain strong democrats, in fact two of our strongest states that we show in our strongly Catholic, and thats Massachuetts and Rhode Island.

Fly him in, and tow him to the Vatican.

I find some posts in the flame wars to be too enticing and I bite. Maybe someone with better knowledge about how DU works can figure out how to get the idea to the admin to allow for keyword ignore. I'd see that as smooth sailing for me from here on out. If certain words, and yes, it is that simple, were never uttered, I could be friendly with more of the persecutedChristians (one word now to differentiate).

like the people who preemptively scold about "you better not be mean" actually taunt us to do exactly what they claim they don't want us to do so they can GASP in outrage. :eyes:

giving them something they want. I can't help myself. I aim to please people. Dunno why they get so upset. :shrug:

snicker.

you can tell by how they dangle the bait. fuckers.

I did not intend for this particular thread to be flamebait, but I do know that in the coming days, I expect to see a lot of flamewars going on in the various forums here.

So far, so good, this thread has managed to stay respectful (I am as reactionary as the next guy/gal), and for that I am very pleased. I would like to keep it that way.

Thanks everyone for participating.

:grouphug:

Let's not hurt each other. (I suffered much pain at the hand of the Catholic Church, however, even though I have left the church, it still has some influence in my life, albeit minor.)

i dont think so..

when you made that comment about dangling flamebait. I apologize for misunderstanding the comment.

not at all! sorry about that! :hug:

As I tire, I tend to read things out of context and shoot right into take it personal mode.

:hug:

I am cool if you are cool!

we have had a fiesty week! the funny thing is hardly ANY of it had to do with Bush! strange. i was just thinking this..

We are mending our fences for the most part, oh and I hope if we are gonna fight next week, its about how the Yankees are the scrouges of the MLB :D and I officially can say while I may not want to post in them, I am no longer afraid of religion threads.

* and Congress did conspire to sign a bill about TS. And that was during the religiopalloozza

on here i havent thought much about the tangential. :)

It's just that I haven't been as heated up and bothered by anything like some of the threads that have been up in the last few days. And I mean there have been some HOT ones lately. In those types of circumstances, I will admit I get carried away, but to get the other side to admit it too is the only way we can get tighter as a whole on DU and come together with some REAL strength. Imagine a protest one day shown on CSPAN where a solid looking group is shown that makes a big impact because they have worked out the differences, overcome them, and found a way to agree on something important. Even full fledged freepers and the msm would have to take notice of THAT. It's not until we capitalize on what we really have, populism, that we'll get tight enough to get our own party's attention too. I'm kind of admitting a master plan, but look at this thread...

and they will go deeply into a long 50 step tirade as to why they can't answer the question. I love the civil Christians around here, but then there are those that say the same exact sort of things that we work our damndest to get out of government, schools, and homes.

finally, one whole & complete circle and now i say night-night...

:hi:

went on a spiritual journey and found that nature based paganism more fit with what I need. What is so confusing about that. I still feel the Church's influence...it is impossible not to go to church for your formative years and not have it influence you, but I no longer identify as a Catholic.

Is that the Pope is dying now, and Mrs. Terri Shiavo's case got so much press. I'm not concerned at all about his dying because he has his God in his pocket, and I think the Pope knows that his journey on the planet has come to its end to go into another world (if there is an afterlife..I'm not certain of that).

for keeping it mostly a rational discussion. Maybe when the Pontiff passes, it won't be so bad around here!

:)

you got some sleep in between I hope!

Thanks for asking jonnyblitz! :D

:)

not merely my sense but i know that you know; that when this pontiff passes there will always be another to contend with. not imo its the way 'the gig' is set up...

:shrug:

But after the "honeymoon" glow of the new pope, the press will die down and we will be back to propaganda as normal.