So - you guys all having fun with this? That's just great.

:eyes:

Reagan, Falwell - I get that. But there ARE people here who care DEEPLY about this man.

:pals:

to even offer you a little comfort or undersatnding... anything to lighten your load today...

It's been such an up and down day. At one point we thought he has died.

I went to church at lunch today and prayed and lite candles for him, my brother and our soliders.


I will say that I've been also pretty productive at work. Guess the Pope telling me to get off my duff!

:hug:

nt

Democratic FUCKING UNDERGROUND - your"friends"

I'm not a huge fan of His Holiness, but the level of grave-pissing in this place sickens me.

Yes, some people's humor is a bit crass, but I don't see too much sacreligious stuff.

I have nothing more against him than any other old guy that dies.

My criticism has been leveled at the media's handling of his passion/imminent passing.

People are using humor as a way of levity on a situation that maybe fundamentally disenfranchised from. Like me, I honestly do not understand people's connection to the Pope anymore than I understnad people's connection to the British monarchy.

Although I do not understand why people care so much about the Pope unless they believe he is the appointee of God to head the Church on Earth (which I believe to be a conservative belief system), I will respect people's belief in that even though I personally believe it breaks the rules of the forum since it states we are a progressive discussion forum, not a conservative one. But I understand that I am in the minority opinion on this, so I will not press it.

WHO ARE IN PAIN!

:wtf:

The whole idea of organized relgion is that some people are granted power over others by "Divine appointment" and therefore denying democratic governance over earthly power. It is the same with monarchies, it is all conservative.

I could go into it more but let's just agree to disagree.

but why do you have to be dismissive of other's beliefs in the process.

Why not just say, "I don't agree with the Catholic Church or the Pope, but I honor your grief." ?

Not only do I believe that one can be Catholic and progressive, but I believe that Catholicism can lead many to be progressive. My husband was raised Catholic, and he feels it has a lot to do with why he's a progressive. I was very anti-Catholic until I met him, and he's taught me a lot about actual Catholicism and not the the version presented by the smear campaign the media presents.

And, regardless of how you feel about it, there are many DUers here who are hurting right now. This isn't Reagan or Falwell. How hard is it to have some feelings and consideration for them.

Real nice, expat. :eyes:

and not say anything about the Pope being a conservative leader just like Reagan.

Seriously, I'll shut up.

:hug:

:hug:

and bring our son with us.

How we behave in this situation will form how he feels about the next leader of the Church.

I remember how my parents acted when Paul VI and JP1 died and I was 11 years old.

It'll be all right though. You got my shoulder if you need it and I hope to have yours if I need it too.

and as one that has nothing but respect for what you bring to this site (music, intellect, humor, etc):

i also understand the other side...driven home to me by this:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3401468&mesg_id=3401564

whom I love - and they have taken HUGE umberance with that - and they have wished me condolences and called the joking ghoulish.

Thank you for the kind words , though. I see there point but I and alot of us are hurting right now. We are all allies.

peace, friend.

but this Pope was NOT my ally or the ally of many on this board. You I care about and I'm sorry you are hurting. The Pope...he gets no more concern from me than any other person. Perhaps less because I'm inclined to show him no more compassion than he would show me. While I personally am not cracking jokes and am trying not to say anything mean-spirited about all this...I just want you to understand the reasons why some people are. It's not because they don't care about you. It's not because they're bad people. It's because they feel this man had a bully pulpit to help heal the planet and instead he helped perpetuate prejudice and discrimination against many of them and they don't feel they somehow owe the Pope any more respect than other conservative leaders.

Well said, indeed.

I USED to be Catholic (when I was a kid and before I knew better) and I cannot get worked up over someone I don't even know, no matter who they are. It is not as if this was unexpected either; he has lived a long time- more than a lot of people get. I am going to try and avoid saying more than that until the dust settles.

I really don't think it is.

Maybe it's just my idea of 'tact'... but... well... there it is...

:(

but still, the person it was meant for took it the way it was intended.

I have no idea what your subject line means.

:shrug:

Never actually repeated the words he found so offensive.

The Church need some change, but it has changed several times in its long history.

And the next Pope may make some of the jokers appreciate JuanPablo a bit more.

wasnt who i was referring to

It is no excuse that people forget their humanity when they're busy hating others.

:hug:

It's typical for people to think that it's black or white. Granted there are some insensitive posts on the topic but there are some pretty blind stupid "I love the pope" posts too.

He was (is?) a man who did some good and did some bad, not some supernatural thing that deserves total revulsion or bowing and scraping. More importantly, just because some people bow and scrape doesn't mean the rest of us should.

To the rest of us he's just another clerical leader.

I'll give an example: I deeply respected Mother Theresa even though I despise most missionary/proselytizing religion. One thing Mother Theresa did not do was to get involved in politics, particularly U.S. politics, to remove antidiscrimination protections from a group of citizens. She was connected to people directly and gave of herself without a pope bubblecar to protect her. She gave aid and comfort to good people and bad people and the wealthy and the sick and the hungry and the dying, whether they were catholic, heathen, straight, gay, holy, or evil and she made no judgements.

However if she had abused her power in that manner to pick out one group of people to wage a campaign of hatred against, I would certainly have reconsidered my opinion of her.

he just died... can't we allow people a little leeway time to grieve?

I'm sure there's a place for people to go cluster on here somewhere who don't want the outside world to intrude. The rest of us are still here however.

I don't advocate hatefulness or insensitivity either, but this IS a political forum. If you REALLY are grieving for the pope, then go grieve in the house of the lord, it's much more appropriate.

god I sound like an asshole.

not meant that way, but I'm just saying the rest of us shouldn't put our lives and opinions on hold here. We won't chase anyone into a church, I promise.

are you capable of that?

no, I am a callous son of a bitch. In case you haven't read any of my other posts and come to that determination yourself, oh wait, you haven't.

You see chavezirritatesmetoday, let me rephrase. I am not the enemy here. The pope did some good. Some of us don't worship the pope. Some of us on this POLITICAL FORUM have an opinion about the pope's deeds. On this forum we don't want to be told to fold our hands and pray. I'm sorry if some people can't see that he did some good too. This forum is a place for discussion and growth, not public prayer.

There will NEVER BE A TIME for people who are sensitive about the pope to discuss his faults, in fact some people believe he had no faults.

I'm just saying, he was a decent person in some respects but he also did some things I found reprehensible as a constitutional American. Some other people here feel the same way. Why are people so overly sensitive about the pope here on a political discussion forum? Isn't the place for remembering ONLY the good that he did in church?

And to answer your question, yes, I'm capable of that.

"fold our hands and pray". Is that so difficult?

I'm sorry if I'm irritating you today by being hurt.

sincerely; all this drama is making me testy too bro' You don't really irritate me - I'm just an evil manbitch sometimes.

I wish the mods would put together a forum on DU where people who are hurting can go to post without confusing the rest of us; it would be a good use of their divine powers.

Getting everyone to pipe down voluntarily though is kind of like asking everyone at Home Depot to leave for an hour in honor of the pope. A nice idea, but not very practical.

Mods, whaddya think?

What's with this "grieving"?

It strikes me as self-indulgent and completely missing the point of the religion, which is that the Pope is going to his reward, and that's something for which true believers would rejoice.

This mourning and scolding because others don't share the same beliefs is about as narrow-minded and insensitive as I've seen, and, frankly, as a well-trained Catholic, I think it might be a time for those who are busy berating others to whom the Pope means nothing to go and examine their faith, examine their beliefs, and then ask themselves why they're so preoccupied with the reactions (or non-reactions) of others when their own professions of faith are nothing more than childish rants and demands that everyone follow their lead.

Examine your faith, examine your heart, rejoice for the Pope, who will enter the embrace of God soon, and leave others to their reactions.

If you're upset with what you read here, perhaps it's time to go away from the computer.

Me, I'm happy he's dying and that it seems to be peaceful for him. A good end to a long life. Now he will be with his God.

The Pope is very important to Catholics and they have my sympathy at this time. I'm not catholic and not even christian and I disagree with many of the church's positions. That said, this is the death of a human being and that is not something to joke about. :hug:

:hug:

since you brought it up...

of who i am supposed to care about and who not?

thanks ;)

and i love you like a brother (that i've never met)

but ask a gay person or a woman faced with a "choice" to weep

sorry pal. i'm not making fun but i'm not gonna mourn either

That is between them and him. And I love you too Matcom - thanks.

have no feeling for the Pope. I don't mean to be insensitive about this, but for many of us, the Pope is no different than any other relgious leader with whom we disagree. DU is not the DCU, after all. So buck up and accept the criticisms in the spirit they are meant. To many of us, the Pope is not different from Falwell, Billy Graham, etc.

I also did not grow up Catholic

I don't mean to be cruel, but...

I think if you ever start saying / typing those words... it's kind of a warning that that what you're about to say is indeed: insensitive, racist, cruel, etc.

in fact I don't go there. But I do understand those who do. I think what I don't post.

I'm just saying...

many peopLe here take themseLves waaaaaaaaaay too seriousLy.

So it can be tough to point out the truth in whats happening without appearing that you approve or like it. Like the way rational and sensible people thought it was right to let Terri Schiavo's body die.. but that doesnt mean we are for death... just aware of realty!

his position on homosexuality was something I disagree with, but it hurts to hear him compared to Fred Phelps and Falwell. Was he the same as Fred Phelps? I don't know what to make of my own feelings right now. :shrug:

And the Pope is different than Falwell, Graham, etc.
I don't understand how people could make that reference.

The Papalcy is an institution, one that carries on through time. Jerry Falwell is not.


Peace Chavez, I feel for you.

It's stuff like this that makes us appear to be over the top. If someone wants to start a thread "I hate the Pope and this is why" then fine. I have no problem with that and would even add my two cents being what they call a "fallen catholic". It's the lame jokes that seem to be just plain nasty.

:shrug:

...it's right up my alley.

:)

Thanks man.

I don't know what does.

Grave-pissing/dancing of any kind is just sick and wrong. I have not and will not participate in any of that.

:hug:

Religious bigotry is no different from racism, homophobia, or sexism.

Days like this just let you know who the FUCKING BIGOTS at DU are.

of their friends who love him.

I've got conflict. I love what he did in WWII, he was a champion for (some of) the poor and for (some) human rights. He was fervently anti-war.

He was also anti-gay and anti-woman. I don't accept that. But he, unlike Phelps, Falwell, and for that matter Reagan; he did have some redeeming qualities.

My most particular reason for vitriol is those posters who are letting their personal opinion of this pope cross over into the sort of religious hatred that spawned things like the inquisition and the holocaust. Fuck them.

:loveya:

Crass and hurtful jokes are very tough for many of your DU friends at this moment. Please, I am only asking for respect for the feelings of your allies and friends in this community.

'nuff said. :thumbsup:

more toward the media coverage of the pope's death (on the heals of Terri Schiavo) and them going back and forth as to whether or not he was still alive. I'm am truly sorry if it was offensive to you and I hope you'll forgive me.

I am also sorry that you are grieving, but he was very old and very ill and is now at peace with his God. :)

On edit: OH, and I would never be happy about anyone's death.

:hug:

If anything I've posted today has created that impression, I apologize.

If not, I'll just sit here in the corner.

I'm making fun of the news networks and stupid stories that have been on "PopeWatch 2005" all day long.

And no, it WASN'T an April Fools'. The number 24 IS really like that here.

There are also people who dislike all of them

but that this case is different because people care about JPII.

It isn't different because of that as I just told you, so you shouldn't have trouble understanding why people are pissing on him

I'm just saying can we hold off on the pissing and hateful jokes in respect for those who cared about the man?

If you can't I won't fault you JVS - I have no beef with you. I'm just asking for respect.

If you can't I will get over it eventually.

There are going to be a lot pissed off DUers venting their spleens at this time. The fact that many DUers are holding back is hard to see because you can't see what people don't write. Maybe today is a bad time to be here.

Pope on the day he's dying? That is truly fucked up!

and come back when the dust has settled

I hope we're still cool man

and I offer my condolences to you

:thumbsup:

hate him to leave till the dust settles?

one listens to.

I'm just supposed to keep my mouth shut? I think not.

it is your choice. You know that they are going to keep saying such things. Ignore it.

demanding it.

stuff he doesn't like.

It's like the saying about fine wine and muck. A barrel of muck with a cupful of fine wine is muck. A barrel of fine wine with a cupful of muck is also muck.

I am not catholic, but he was a good man

I mean, I'm not Catholic, never been Catholic and honestly never followed his life very much, but I do understand there are people saddened by his health problems and I don't want to hurt them.

:hug:

Hey all apologies from me too. Not for being crass or mean-spirited but because I JUST spoke with you and I didn't even ask how you were dealing with the pope's death. Sorry you're having to deal with both the passing of an important figure in your life....and a flame war. What a day. My thoughts and prayers are with you.

But I am not jumping for joy either. I guess I dont care either way. But I do wish the man peace in the next life.

....don't take it personally...sorry you're hurtin'. :hug:

Although I disagreed with him on some issues, I liked him. I grew up in an Italian Catholic neighborhood in Chicago, and remember how happy everyone was when he became Pope. (There were many Polish people in the neighborhood too). I think he was a great communicator, a great advocate for the poor and helpless.

My heart goes out to you and every Catholic at this time, Chavez. Peace be with you.

:grouphug:

The irony is so thick you can cut it with a knife.

You don't see it, huh?

I think the disrespect with which the media, contributors to this site and many members of the public are treating those filled with mourning over the loss of the Pope is terrible. I am not a person of faith, but I am a decent human being and it's unconscionable to me that so many are being so insensitive. Even if you are not a member of the church he leads, you should still be able to appreciate his humanitarian efforts. Even if you can't do that, I don't understand why you would want to torment those in grief. Best wishes to all Catholics and Christians during this difficult time.

I'm not Catholic, never have been and never will be, and I totally do not understand the deal with all this grief. I'm not saying that to be a smart ass or mean or anything, I just totally do not get it. At all.

But you know what? I don't have to understand it. There are DUers who are sad, and hurting, and that's all I need to know. :hug:

I am grieving right along with you...and at the moment in Meriden, CT, but one thing I am not grieving is that my deeply religious mom and dad get to meet the Pope when he dies. That will make my mom very, very happy in Heaven, even though she did, liberal that she was, find a lot of fault with some of the things he did and didn't do.


Peace.

We all need somebody to lean on.

he obviously means a lot to you, so peace to you in this difficult time

for the Pope, because he was a world leader who was anti-death penalty, anti-war, and a champion of the world's poor.

Was he perfect? Absolutely not. Did I disagree with some of his positions, particularly on homosexuality and women's rights? Very much so.

Nonetheless, he did a lot of good in this world from a progressive point of view. I'll never forget when he came to St. Louis and convinced then-Gov. Mel Carnahan to save the life of a prisoner who was scheduled to be executed. And I'll never forget the right-wing, pro-death hatred that was spewed against the Pope that day. It was an amazing moment.

I also respect that many disagree with me. But I do think the giddy grave dancing has gotten a bit out of hand around here.

that some might have construed as tasteless earlier but I seriously DON'T see giddy grave dancing going on.

Who here would want respect for those two - Falwell and Reagan? They advocated ideals in everyway contrary to the spirit of this site.

The pope's views have their flaws, but he still advocates for the poor and the sick and the underpriveliged, something the "compassionate conservatives" in this country do not. It angers and sickens me so see someone stating that you cannot be progressive and Catholic. That is not a progressive, open-minded, or caring view. It upsets me that there are many people here who are open-minded until they are disagreed with.

I am an ex-protestant, still reconciling my views on God. I am not a big fan of Catholicism with its dogma and history. But I came very close to tears when reading about the Pope. I felt a lump reading about the extreme faith he has in God and the faith of his closest associates that he would leave peacefully.

This is a man respected not only by the religion he heads, but by many non-Christians, Protestants, and other people in this world. Perhaps you will find comfort in knowing that if he passes, he will be in a better place where is suffering will no longer exist.

So, Reagan more than likely has an "ass full of red hot coals", but your certain that Pope JP II "will be in a better place where his suffering will no longer exist"?

I think it is these kind of comments that can give rise to the mean jokes.

The views that Gays are evil, woman are subordinate, and condoms are wrong in a world of HIV and starving millions has probably caused the world more harm than Reagan ever did. Especially since Reagan was only in power for eight years vs. the Pope's many years of absolute authority and the belief of hundreds of millions that he speaks for God.

Ya see, many of the statements in praise of the Pope are as hurtful to some as the jokes about his death are hurtful to others. It probably hurts many people at DU to find out that the Pope is so beloved by fellow DU'ers. It must hurt to discover that one of your arch enemies is beloved as a saint by people you thought had common values.

I'm not advocating bad jokes or grave dancing, but I can sure understand it happening on a progressive discussion site. The idea that any one person speaks for God is the perfect opposite of progressive ideals.

I grew up Catholic, and personally don't feel strongly one way or another about his eminent death. I'm certainly not sad. I'm not happy either, because I know the Catholic pyramid of authority will just place another person on top to chat with God.

(edited for clarity)

Don't agree w/ policies, but I do care about him. That's why you don't see me on the forums making jokes.

I was raised Catholic, and though it is not a big part of my life now, I surprised myself this morning by feeling a bit upset and concerned. My friend made a joke about the Pope, and... well... I ended up feeling bad. I didn't lecture, but I didn't laugh either. I guess that somewhere inside of me is the acknowledgement that I believe this occasion deserves some pretty serious reverence.
For me, I think this is an unexpectedly introspective time because this gentleman was the Pope through pretty much my entire life - he shaped what I know to be Catholicism. I remember his picture hanging in my parochial school when I was a youngster. So his passing is symbolic to me as an individual, in part because he was the figurehead of an organization that played a role in the activities of my youth. On some profound level that I had not anticipated, this one hits a little closer to home.
I still find myself angry with the Church, and with some of the Pope's actions and statements throughout his papal career, so to speak, but I cannot help but feel something in the death of such a figure. This just seems.... big.

While I appreciate the dying pope's pacifism and outspokenness on behalf of the third world, I must say that he was one of the most regressive and reactionary leaders in the world regarding women's rights, gay rights, and protection of children from molestation.

I mean, he does carry a certain stature and aura as a "holy," religious leader.. and a lot of this is due to all the architecture, art, and symbolism... including where and how he prays, speaks, and travels.

Now.. you know how Bush manages to create this stature and aura with his lumpen groupies.. setting up photo ops.. speeches to the faithful.. background symbols.. very high podiums.. certain ways of dressing and lighting.

And you didn't succumb ...

So how is it all that different with Pope?

Sue

But then again I don't understand being mean on purpose either.

I am not Cathoilic nor have I ever been. I have no use for organized religion in my life at all. HOWEVER - for many, many people the Pope is their religious leader - the symbol of God here on earth - and as such his sickness and probable death is going to be devistating. Why would they need another kick in the ass??

I am sorry for all the Catholics on DU who are hurting so deeply that their religious leader is so ill. I honor your grief. I'm sorry.

Princess

But CST, you are my DU brother and I can feel for you without needing to agree or understand, so hugs your way...

:hug:

RL