Simple yes/no question re: cats.

If you consider a cat a nuisance (i.e., it has ventured onto your property unwanted too many times and you have tried to get its owners to cooperate), will you kill it?

I don't just mean shoot it, or poison it, or otherwise cause it to die by your own hand; I also mean, will you trap it and take it to be euthanized without so much as an attempt to call its owner if known or to see if it's microchipped?

Yes or no?

I feel that the earth belongs to animals as well, and they don't understand the semantics of property lines. ;)

I think/feel that if an animal is not harming my family, it's free to chill in my yard.

for some people, just existing makes a cat a nuisance. I, for one, wouldn't know what to do without a couple of other cats hanging around, that is, other than the ones that let me live with them. ;)

...really awful. They also sometimes hang outside my apartment. I had five cats outside my apartment door a few days ago. At first I thought they smelled my birds and were just waiting for a chance to get inside. Now I think one of the cats was in heat. Now there will be even more unwanted cats. I think most of the cats are abandoned.

Sometimes I think I really like cats and other times I can't stand them. I liked the cats that decided my mother and I owned them. We fed them and they decided to stay. :) I named all of them and even invited them in for petting sessions occasionally. The cats at the apartment complex are so numerous they are a nuisance. I didn't mind them at first. But then I found myself annoyed that I constantly had to think about keeping my door shut. I was really worried about my little parrot. She's just the right size to be a kitty snack and everyone knows how fast a cat can be. One mistake and it would be all over for Darla. Then the walkway began to reek. Yuck! Certain strong smells really affect me. Cat piss is one of them.

Also, there's a lot of fighting and yowling at night and it wakes me up. So yes, the cat population is definitely annoying.

But kill a nuisance cat? No way.

I asked the manager about "neuter and release" programs, but she said the local humane society won't even come out to trap the cats and take them to the pound. Very sad. Eventually, if I get my own stuff sorted out, I might look into this further and see about a "neuter and release" program. We have enough feral cats here.

assume that some of them have been euthanized because they were too sick or otherwise unsuitable for adoption, but I wouldn't take in a neighbors cat.

it becomes MINE!

I reserve the right to manage animals on my property as I see fit. If the owners can't or won't control them, I will.

Lighten up on Cats. I understand that you went through HELL in vietnam but don't take your anger out on defenseless animals. I'll bet you have a pet you love or one from your past don't you?

If anybody killed one of mine, their troubles would be just beginning.

^^ you can say that again.

please inform us how you would know if someone were to kill your roaming pet? They'd just disappear. There are all sorts of methods, antifreeze, strychnine in tuna, pellet guns, traps, ad infinitum...

Death by poisoning is a horrible and cruel death. Ethylene glycol poisoning is especially cruel; the animals who are poisoned with antifreeze suffer excruciating pain before they die.

I hope you don't live in Southern Maryland. I don't want you anywhere near my home.

I said I did not condone it.

n/t

:rofl: :rofl:

Same can be done to the little song birds that poop on my car.
Or the barking dog who keeps me up all night.
The thing is, I don't hurt animals. Even shitting songbirds and barking dogs.

PS I'm opposed to harming animals in any way.

like to make your aquaintance. i've some trix you might not find so amusing.

on how to do it. I wonder if Jeffrey Dahmer "condoned" killing people.

does not a plan make...

But listing various methods of killing animals that mysteriously end up dead shortly after provides enough circumstancial evidence to gain a conviction.

he's simply stating facts that there are many ways to kill pets and wild animals, and that if you want to protect your precious little kitty, it's best to keep it on your own property.

I've never understood that way of thinking. (But then, I wouldn't want to crawl inside your head)!

to kill a kidnapped child, he would immediately become a suspect in any child disappearance in his area.

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:wtf:

:wtf:

kill innocent creatures is sufficient to draw suspicion.

What do children have to do with it? It's the same mentality. If someone sits there and lists ways to kill ANY LIVING BEING, and that being ends up dead, the person with a laundry list of methods will definitely be looked at.

It's the same mentality.

or quit the accusations.

liked to killed small animals before he was dissecting PEOPLE. YOU NEED HELP RIGHT NOW!!!

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and you accuse me of using them, then you bring up child murder, and I'm sick? I don't think so...

they don't have a real point to make, so they make shit up!

of inconsiderate behaviour, or can you? :(

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and it was a question. ;)

I wonder if he owned cats?

I do feral rescue; have numerous cats. they live indoors, with a nice screened in patio so they can play in the dirt. keeps them safe from my redneck naybors...

annoy you. Works pretty well. You have to re-spray every now and then, but it is worth it. Doesn't cost much and saves harmony in the neighborhood.

Also, pour some on any antifreeze that ends up on the pavement. Antifreeze is lethal to kitties but also seems to be irresistible to them. The ammonia will deter them from imbibing.

I would rather people 'speak' to cats in a way the cats will understand. They REALLY understand smell. Beats having to resort to more drastic means.

I think when one puts ammonia around, cats figure that must be some big, bad ass cat! They usually choose to not risk a confrontation with whoever did that pissin. ;)

The antifreeze trick might save lives of both cats & dogs. And a neighborhood with cats and dogs is healthier than one without, don't ya think?

But I do think people have the obligation to spay or neuter their cats. No one likes the smell of unnuetered cat pee around their home. Cats who are fixed rarely become a problem for anyone so please have your pet fixed and preferably keep them inside unless supervised if you can.

Some people "have" pet cats but it's barely more than just feeding a local feral colony.

(Of course I wasn't talking about you - I know you take great care of your cats and socializing and rescuing ferals).

you weren't talking about me. :)

Every cat that wanders to our home, if s/he stays long enough to be trapped, becomes one of "ours." I know you know this, but for the benefit of those who don't: we trap them and get them vetted. If they're healthy, they're spayed/neutered and given their shots, then released on our property. If they're not healthy, they're euthanized.

Let 'em roam :)

sheesh

If it's got a collar/tags, they can find the owner. They can also check for the microchip. If it's got no collar/tags or microchip, then it will either be adopted or euthanized.

I don't think I could be friends with someone who would kill a dog or a cat on purpose. I have a hard enough time being a meat eater, and being married to a woman who loves to fish. I know several people who hunt, and if the conversation ever turns to hunting I excuse myself.

If I were to allow my stronger opinion to show through, I'd say anyone who'd kill a dog or a cat on purpose ought to be shot himself. But that would be emotion talking. I wouldn't advocate that for such a person any more than I'd ever get behind capital punishment.

But I will say this, without apology: in my opinion there is something wrong with someone who sees nothing wrong with killing an animal when s/he knows it's someone else's pet.

wild bird, susceptible to by death from a number of enemies, natural (cat, other birds, etc.) and human (sprawl, pollution, etc.)

vs

known pet cat killed by a human neighbor

Nope. Not analogous.

It's about being someone's pet. The cynical could even boil it down to a matter of destroyed property. And the religious could go all 10 commandments on you ("thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's" animals).

or on a leash under your control when off your property. If you love your pet, you should protect from accidental or intentional death/dismemberment/injury if nothing else. Consideration of your neighbors and plain good manners indicate you are responsible for your pets whereabouts and activities.

Keep it out of my yard, we got no problems.

Why is that so hard to understand?

It's just impossible for me to accept that someone would kill a neighbor's cat. KILL. There is NO acceptable reason for doing so.

anyone can believe it is morally or ethically responsible to allow cats to prey on wildlife and invade other's property.

Cats just are. Cats are very, very hard to control. Sounds to me like many DU cat owners who allow their cats outside do what they can to see their cats roam somewhat responsibly (altering them, belling them, etc.). But cats, being cats, escape. Some people would never let their cats out -- but they do escape from time to time.

Then there are feral cats, who exist because some people were NOT responsible. Some of us do what we can to see that these cats don't spread disease and don't reproduce. I am not about to put these cats down just because of their nature.

If my cat kills a bird, or a chipmunk or squirrel or gopher or fox kit or rabbit or any other wildlife, I am not without grief or remorse. But neither will I wear sackcloth and ashes.

On the other hand, if a neighbor kills one of my cats, there will be hell to pay.* A wild animal is not a member of the family.

* My county's law on the subject: "It shall be a violation of these regulations for any individual to . . . Torture, torment, cruelly beat/kill, injure, intentionally mutilate, run down with a vehicle intentionally, overdrive, overload, or otherwise abuse any animal; Administer poison to any animal or knowingly place or leave any poisonous or other harmful substance with intent to injure or kill any animal other than vermin; . . . Cause, arrange or authorize these acts <snip>."

...and you think that's ethical? :(

I cannot help it that cats hunt.

There is nothing ethical or unethical about the fact that cats hunt.

wolves should be controlled, since they kill birds.

I wouldn't blame him for wanting to get rid of them.
:eyes:

We enjoyed the yodeling. :)

in the northern lower peninsula of Michigan, when we're at the cabin.

I like to hear them, I wish they would sing more often. Our dogs even seem to like it; they don't seem afraid, and they don't try to run and find them. Next time it happens, I want to play my Wolf Songs cd for the coyotes, and see if they respond, or if it makes them quiet down.

I'd love to hear or see wolves in the wild too.

but they were usually going over the next mountain. :)

:wow:
:hi:

I live in Ann Arbor and I've heard of coyotes out around Chelsea, but not in Ypsi.

My niece in Arizona lost her cute little froo-froo poodle dog to coyotes ... they'd let him out to pee, and he'd run across the dirt road to the "field" ... she thinks the coyotes were waiting for him. Maybe it wasn't coyotes, but she never did find a trace of the poor thing. She didn't think he'd run away, or had been snatched by people.

They should have kept him in the fenced back yard, or gone outside with him. I hope he didn't suffer, whatever happened to him.

:hi:

According to Ohio Fishing and Hunting laws, you can shoot them on site, within the established laws of shooting near homes, etc.

in the country. Coyotes show up in plenty of urban and suburban areas nationwide.

while the others are probably more likely natural to the habitat.

To me that matters.

I do hate coming home to bird remains in my courtyard, but I still pet the neighbor's kitties.

I do wish they were kept inside though. I really hate that they kill so much wildlife, when there is so little near me.

wildlife, until Americans take firm steps and control predation.

in the wild in America. The native birds and animals were not adapted by evolution to compete with it.

A sparrow doesn't have defense against any predators.

to elude the house cat than a native bird of the Americas because they both evolved in the Old World.

See, a sparrows only defense is flying away. Are you going to tell me that English sparrows have a different flight pattern? You know that's bullshit.

Sparrows practice the same defense against ANY predator, whether they're English sparrows, American sparrows or Afghani sparrows. If there's a predator, they FLY AWAY.

Your attempt to manufacture theories is actually pretty comical.

"Introduction of Non-Native Species. After habitat destruction, the invasion of non-native species is the greatest threat to rare and native species and ecosystems. Non-native species alter habitat by changing the vegetation, competing with native species, and preying on native species. Hawai`i, California and Florida have the most severe problem with exotic species." - Wildlife Need Wild Places

http://www.sierraclub.org/habitat/habitatloss.asp

Feral cats—Domestic cats, including both pets and free-ranging animals, now number about 100 million in the United States (Coleman and others 1997). The occurrence of cats tends to be concentrated around areas of human habitation. Studies of free-ranging domestic cats indicate that small mammals comprise about 70 percent of their prey, and birds constitute about 20 percent. Nationwide, free-ranging rural cats probably kill more than a billion small mammals and hundreds of millions of birds each year. Free-ranging cats are a serious threat to ground-nesting birds, such as turkey and quail (Miller and Leopold 1992; U.S. Department of Agriculture, Forest Service 1999), and also attack shrub-nesting songbirds. In Florida, free-ranging cats are contributing to the imperiled status of several federally listed species, including the Lower Keys marsh rabbit, several types of beach mice, and woodrats.



Free-ranging cats can outnumber and compete with native predators, including hawks and weasels (Coleman and others 1997). Cat predation may deplete winter populations of microtine rodents and other prey of red-tailed hawks, marsh hawks, and American kestrels (George 1974). Free-ranging cats also can potentially transmit new diseases to forest wildlife, including feline leukemia to cougars (Jessup and others 1993) and feline distemper and feline immunodeficiency virus to the endangered Florida panther (Roelke and others 1993).

http://www.srs.fs.usda.gov/sustain/report/terra3/terra3-12.htm

(ET)Awful(ly) convenient that you're on ignore, so your scientific evidence doesn't have to be responded to!

;-)

fyi, set the live trap again tonight for the raccoons under the house ... found where they tore up the insulation underneath to get access. Unfortunately, I think the nest is a good 30 feet from the hole, so no way to get at it except to tear the house up more.

Saw a new cat running loose in the yard tonight ... he tried to get a mourning dove that was sitting under the feeders snacking ... HA! I knocked on the window, and the dove flew away to safety. Then I let my dog out...

keep coming back kitty, I'll get you my pretty! bwaaa haaa haaa haaaa

Then he's at your mercy! I'll probably run my own traps at least once or twice more tonight.

Unfortunately I'm not educated to refute "native birds and animals were not adapted by evolution to compete with it," but it sound suspect. Can you back it up?

allowed to roam free and predate on whatever they can catch?

I don't get why cats are treated differently.

Can anyone help me to undersand this?

a human?

I said below that my husband and kids found a pet bird - a cockatiel - that had apparently gotten loose and was hopping around someone's yard.

Why should a pet be allowed to roam around and possibly kill someone else's pet?

dogs have been known to attack and in many cases kill human beings, this is the primary reason they are not allowed to roam free. Additionally, dogs shit anywhere they like, cats tend to bury it, this tends to offend people.

You ask why laws are the way they are, I told you. Don't put words in my mouth.

I didn't ask why laws were the way they were. I was aiming at why pet owners felt they should be allowed to let their pets do whatever they wanted.

Please don't put words in my mouth, either. :)

"But why then aren't dogs allowed to roam free and predate on whatever they can catch?

I don't get why cats are treated differently.

Can anyone help me to undersand this?"

I answered exactly what you asked :).

I should've asked:

"Why do cat owners think it's okay for their pets to predate at will, but dogs shouldn't be allowed to?"

I'm afraid the answer would still be similar to yours, though. :(

That said, the fact is that laws, in general, are passed to protect people more than animals. In general, cats pose no threat to people. While many dogs pose no threat of any kind at all, it's also true that many dogs do.

Whether it's through destruction of property by digging up the neighbors yard, whether it's being too friendly and jumping up on old lady Johnson down the street and causing her to fall and break a hip, whether it's a mistreated pitbull who decides to take out his hostilities on a 4 year old child, etc., dogs, in general, cause the kind of damage that incites people to fight for laws to be passed.

I guess I just have to wonder why people only consider what's legal and not what's ethical.

As I said in a post below... stray / outdoor cats have killed of some of my new rosebushes... have deflated inflatable pools numerous times... I'm really starting to wonder if people that allow their cats to roam around care anything at all for their neighbors. It seems selfish to me to allow your pet to destroy at will... even if it's not a human life.

Dogs are treated differently than cats in our society. We don't have catcatchers or "cat pounds" per se. I have never heard of domestic dogs going wild the way stray cats will.

I don't have the answer, though, redqueen.

and we'll all be happy. :)

I've gotten out my bb gun and started shooting birds to feed to my cat. Got a problem with that?

Nice. :)

Talk about a sicko!!!!!

what if someone's pet bird got out?

My husband and daughters walk home from school, and they recently saw a cockatiel wandering around someone's yard (wings were clipped as it's a pet).

Why is someone's cat meandering outside at will more important than someone's pet bird who got out accidentally?

because cats are cute and fuzzy. Birds aren't furry enough or something... :(

I'd like to see some responses to this question from those that advocate letting cats roam unattended wherever they please.

Do any other pets get that privilege? Dogs obviously don't ... why should cats?

and they will not on my property. IMO, it's morally and ethically reprehensible to allow one's pet to roam.

I saved 7 wrens and 1 baby cardinal from my neighbors two cats last spring and took them to wildlife rehab. Those cats also piss and poop on my sidewalk and in my garden DAILY! :grr:

I own four cats. ALL are indoors and kept safe.

Your's is a responsible stance on pets. :)

themselves already!

eaten by a stray cat "invading" someone's sacrosanct property, and I find your position just awful.

"There's something wrong with condoning cats killing birds."

crapping on my car.

On another note, why the hell does anybody care enough to kill it?

...to be annoying. I think someone needs to look into how the population can be humanely reduced. I would prefer a "neuter and release" program of some kind.

It's not too hard to figure out.

like to do their business in my yard and in my flower gardens. I have 2 young kids playing outside and not only do I have to worry about them running out in the road, I have to worry about them picking up cat crap.

I'm going to try using a hose and squirt the cat.. If it doesnt work, I'm at a loss on what to do.

and then if it's a neighbors cat, take it to the pound and tell your neighbor where it is. If it's not the neighbors cat, take it to the pound anyway.

You should not have to worry about your children picking up cat shit from your yard or their sandbox. I'm sorry if you have rude neighbors.

who threatened to call the police on me because my dog barks outside :)

I clean my cats doo in their CAT BOX because they dont go outside to poo in someones yard, or to get ran over by a car. I know my cats are disease free.. I highly doubt my neighbors mangled looking cat is!!

Doesnt help I'm pregnant either and I constantly have toxoplasmosis running through my head while weeding my garden.

I am a HUGE cat lover so I dont condone any harmful activities to our feline furry friends.. So I have patience... but when I bend down and almost kneel in a fresh pile.. kinda ticks me off.

:rofl: that just tickled my funny bone.

:hi: Purr

Gosh. I had no idea. :eyes:

it is funny but potentially hazardous at the same time... :)

:hi:

my car and off to the vets. I'd keep them in the house, but I fear that Merlin could pick up something. Our vet finds homes for wayward kitties I should add. :hi:

We usually leave dry cat food out on the front porch for them. I don't consider any of them a "nuisance", though our cat Della (who hisses at them through the window) and our dogs (who bark at them) may disagree.

We've lived here since 1998 and have only had two field mice get into our house, so I welcome all the stray cats in the area.

a rabid cat.
There are many cats running around my neighborhood that have no homes...but i ignore them unless they act funny.

Generally I view them as friends since they kill the moles.

but I wouldn't kill them or have them killed even if I did.

:cry:

but I still wouldn't kill them.

I'd talk to the owner if I could, and if not - and especially if there seemed to be no owner (if the cat was in poor health, dirty, etc.), catch them and turn them over to animal control.

I wouldn't ever kill any other living thing on purpose.:hi:


I would keep calling the owner to ask them to get the cat and to try to not have the cat run into my yard. If the cat continued to be a serious problem, I would then probably call animal control and let the owner worry about getting their cat back. But I would never harm the animal.

All this baloney about cats crapping on peoples' lawns gets to me. I've had cats for over 20 years and have never seen cat poop on the lawn. They go in dirt where they can bury it (or at least attempt to).

Makes me so mad!

They also pop our inflatable pools we buy for the kids... we've given up on that, now. :(

they do it in the garden, in the flower bed, in the kids sandbox. YOu know, those places where people are also digging or playing.

you got no problems with the shit from other people's pets in your yard, I'll be right over with a big load of dog shit from my yard....

Skunks, groundhogs, possums, raccoons, rabbits, etc. Guess where they poop? In your yard. So the first turd you see you pin on the cat, right?

My neighbor accused my cat of that. I took a look and the turd was the size of a dog's. My cat would have had to crap the equivalent of a human pooping a watermelon for it to be his yet my neighbor is convinced.

So... I'm confused as to why you're so intent on believing it's never cats that do it.

:shrug:

is one of their inalienable rights! NOT! :(

to chase the pests away.

This year we're not even bothering with tomatoes... we think the cats liked them because the birds would eat the bugs on the plants, so maybe they were only there to try to catch the birds.

:shrug:

I may have to buy more big dogs myself. They sure made a mess when they killed cats, but "It's a cat's natural instinct to roam." :(

I am just in shock reading this. Damn.

The only cat I haven't returned to their rightful owner (unharmed) was my girl kitty, Tinkerbelle. Her owner, my neighbor, abused her and threw her out when she was deathly sick. I took her in and told them they weren't getting her back.

If I couldn't find the owner I guess I'd just have one more cat. :shrug:

I have a Kavorkian coupon for just such ocassions!

david

I do believe that cats should remain indoors or be supervised. IF you truly love your pet, you don't allow it to be exposed to a variety of dangers (including, at least a few here, gun-toting neighbors :)). There are things such as "cat runs" which are similar to ones for dogs, but they are covered so the cat can't get out. That way, the cat can run around outside in a very controlled environment.

My kitty stays inside! He used to be a free roamer, but when we moved we kept him inside and I liked that better (I also had started to view him as a pet). He has plenty of birds to entertain him in our house (several finches, a parrot, a quaker, and a lovebird). I don't like to see stray cats roaming about, it is not safe.

If you love your pet, keep him/her INSIDE or under your supervision, even if you don't want to take in consideration your neighbors' right to privacy !! It is the best for him/her.

the cat is an indoor cat. I find the neighbors dog to be a major nuiscance. It gets into my trash on trash day, spreads it all over the place and it shits (big shits) on my lawn. they do nothing. I blame this on the owners not the animal. It's their job to teach the animal, and to keep it in their own yard.

What is the purpose. My husband and I love cats, we have two. Also, my husband has a "colony" of cats he feeds and works with the SPCA to have them spaded and neutered. Again, what is the purpose in this question????

The purpose is to satisfy my own curiosity. There's been a lot of discussion of late about cats killing wild birds, or cats straying on to private property. It seems some DUers go to extreme lengths to stop them -- i.e., either killing the cats by their own hands (or being willing to do so) or trapping them and taking them to the humane society to be put down. According to the way I worded the poll question, some folks have voted that they would kill a cat even if they knew it to be a neighbor's pet.

BTW, my partner and I care for a feral colony as well.

it just makes me CRAZY to think that anyone would harm a defensless animal. My husband and I believe if you find a sick or injured animal you should at least take it to the SPCA. And what about a neighbor who would kill there neighbors cat, that is sooooo sick. Thank god I don't have those kind of neighbors. I will admit that we have had dog barking problems and at times I have felt like killing the dog, but obviously any sane human being would never do such a thing. Maybe you should do a post or poll on dog barking, which is much worst that a cat going on someones property. I commend you on your kindness to animals. Talk with you again....

i try to play with it. It's won't hurt anything by being in the yard.

There are always welcome in my yard even if they rip up the trash every so often.

"Unfortunately, a major predator of native wild birds is another exotic species—the domestic cat (Felis silvestris). As many as 100 million feral and pet cats range freely across America and can cause hundreds of millions of songbird mortalities a year!"

http://njfieldoffice.fws.gov/FieldNotes%20WEB%20PDF/2004_Spring_html/1&2_day.htm

Alley cats are cool.

Could their rarity be because of the cats?
(edetid fur speleng.)

The alley cats have plenty of prey from the rats to the pigeons, not to mention the excess meat I throw to them. No, there just aren't many songbirds in the big city. Sparrows, pigeons and seagulls are indigenous to the area.

Residential development near the borders of the swamp will increase external adverse impacts (e.g., noise, feral cats, off road vehicles, and pollution) that may decrease avian 4
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usage of the site for migratory stopover, wintering, and breeding. The Great Blue Heron colony, perhaps the largest in eastern Pennsylvania, is on private land and potentially sensitive to unregulated disturbance.

http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:TndFbdcEFaUJ:pa.audubon.org/IBA_Consplans/IBA66.pdf+Philadelphia+feral+cats+endangered+birds&hl=en

I'd like to euthanize them!

I would not hesitate to strangle him with my bare hands.

Watch out, Frist!

he is a Borg. YOU WILL ASSIMILATE!!!

My bad. :hi:

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and I will say it for you, loud and clear...

FUCKWITS.

fleabert: "hell yah."
and I will say it for you, loud and clear...

FUCKWITS.

just filling in the asterix.

I will defend my pets.

like you would defend it from a thief or murderer? or how you would defend it from birds shitting on your roof?

I just don't get it. I pet the cats that visit me, since i don't have one, I know their names and their homes.

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bertha katzenengel: Poll question: Simple yes/no question re: cats.
If you consider a cat a nuisance (i.e., it has ventured onto your property unwanted too many times and you have tried to get its owners to cooperate), will you kill it?

I don't just mean shoot it, or poison it, or otherwise cause it to die by your own hand; I also mean, will you trap it and take it to be euthanized without so much as an attempt to call its owner if known or to see if it's microchipped?

Yes or no?"

ForrestGump: "None of the 13 f***wits who answered "yes""
would be advised to come anywhere near me. If I've got a cat, and someone who'd go along with the opinions of those aforementioned f***wits comes along and kills that cat, said f***wit is going to die.
And don't hand me any pompous crap about ecology, or strawmen related to such -- I've got a whole darned PhD in the subject and have had extensive field experience with introduced/invasive species and the like. Odds are good I know more about the subject you do, or at least know where to look it up and how to turn the results of that research into a 40-minute Powerpoint presentation that will thrill and amaze. But I digress.

Domestic cats do not 'belong' on the American landscape (not that we do, either, in our present form, nor do our constructs and de-constructs) as it once was, but that's irrelevant to my reserving the right to terminate the life processes of any sick SOB bastard who executes a kitty of myh acquaintance. I don't care if the murderer is a Democrat, either, or even if the loss of their vote sways an election the wrong way."

Me: Your post sounds remarkably like a threat. Is it? This is a subject you claim to be an expert on. Explain to me why a cat's life is more important than that of a bird?
Now, explain to me why said cat's life is more important than the life of someone who is trying to legally protect their property and the wildlife thereon by taking said animal to the lawful humane authorities?

stay away from my animals, period.

that you would kill an animal for stepping on your property? that is so sad.

as the poll asks, yes. I have asked, then told, and warned my neighbor not to allow his animals on my property. I bought traps, and they will be taken to the SPCA.

(Edit spelling)

which you have done elsewhere on the thread. going so far as to give some options for baiting...

"having a cat euthanized" and taking them to the local ASPCA or such and telling the owner the cat is there are two very very different things.

I assumed from the poll that taking the cat there meant you told the shelter it was a stray and would never mention it to the owner of the cat, to insure it died. that would be sick.

I am confused. do you want the behavior of the owners to stop, or do you want the cats dead?

btw: cats also kill introduced bird species that are eradicating indigenous plants and insects.

But they are being used every day! I consider it cruelty to animals for an owner to expose any pet to those sort of dangers. It is not my responsibility to tell the owner anything. As I've stated repeatedly, I've asked him to keep his pets off my property, I've told him to, and I've warned him. I will keep his pets off my property myself, since he has refused to do so. Their safety is his responsibility as their owner, not mine.

scared the crap out of me, and I don't have a cat or live near you. I guess I have to trust that you don't do those things. why give someone ideas though?

I too agree that cats should be indoors for safety, but sometimes they get out. and I advocate for TNR not euthanizing for feral colonies. I am guessing we disagree on that. We can save that for another day.

Sounds like you have a shitty neighbor who can't get along. don't take the cat to a kill shelter, take them to a no-kill, just in case. don't punish the cat with it's life for it's owners inability to see your side of things. Please.

the neighbor repeatedly to keep his pets home. At least two more birds have been killed. One had been nesting in my yard for years. I have no idea whether the SPCA and pound near me are no-kill or not, but as a concession to your request, I will ask.

I am sure there is one in your area, I wonder if the cat is fixed...that might help with the wandering. Might. I personally wouldn't let a cat out because I would worry about cars and accidental antifreeze poisoning, but I would hate to think that worrying about intentional baiting would be a concern as well. I can't imagine what type of person would do that. Good to hear that I was interpreting you wrong.

Maybe another solution is letting the cat come in your house!?! Tell the neighbor you are going to start adopting strays and having them fixed, and if their cat is out, you assume it's up for grabs? Might startle them...

I hope you find an amicable solution to this issue, one that doesn't put the cat in danger.

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Me: Your post sounds remarkably like a threat. Is it? This is a subject you claim to be an expert on. Explain to me why a cat's life is more important than that of a bird?
Now, explain to me why said cat's life is more important than the life of someone who is trying to legally protect their property and the wildlife thereon by taking said animal to the lawful humane authorities?

:rofl:

...I'll help you defend the castle. Anyone who tries to kill my kitty, will have hot molten lead poured down their throats...;-)

One was genuinely FERAL, she lived in the woods and was trapped for us to adopt....

The other was a 'stray' who was a REGULAR on our front porch for 2 years, and we only decided to 'adopt' him because he showed up one day with a broken leg...

Meanwhile, we still have at least EIGHT 'stray cats' who are regular guests on our front-porch food-bowl.

You know what we DON'T have in our suburban neighborhood?

RATS! And Damn few MICE!

So, exactly WHAT could a cat do to your property that would make you even NOTICE, let alone CARE?

Cats are a POSITIVE force in human-occupied areas!

Anyone who hurts a CAT is a _BAD_ person; end of story!

CAT-HATERS make Baby Jesus CRY!

...downtown. Our neighborhood is full of cats. Some owned, some not. But everyone takes care of them. In fact, there kind of forklore around here, kind of like the temple monkeys you read about. But as you said, there's one thing they always take care of, and thats rats, mice, and snakes - and by the river, there's plenty of snakes. When you see how they interact with us, its almost symbiotic. Now I know why the Egyptians wanted them around...

I am free to reply with my own IDEAS.

When a cat eats a bird, I 'THINK' that Baby Jesus bows his head, in a moment of silent respect for the bloody, hunger-driven unpleasantness INHERENT in the 'circle of life' which is part and parcel of the interactive system of REALITY which we humans call "Nature", and all other species refer to as 'eating'.

On a side note: I also "think" that every time a tiny little bird rises up against a CAT who outweighs it 100/1, and pecks at it until the cat runs and hides under my porch...

Baby Jesus laughs so hard he craps his HOLY little diaper!

Feel free to ask me about any of the MANY other things I 'think', BikeWriter!

The domestic house cat in the wild is not part of nature in the Americas. It is a destructive alien predator.

The CAUCASIAN Human is NOT part of nature "in the Americas".

And as far as 'Destructive Alien Predators' go, domestic felines will NEVER equal our record! NEVER!
HA! Us humans destroy more every DAY than cats destroyed in their HISTORY!

Kitties can only destroy 'species'; we eradicate entire ECOSYSTEMS! And that is just a secondary effect of our deliberate GENOCIDE!

Intelligent Humans spent thousands of years building complex systems of sociopolitical interactions "in the Americas", and WE erased them from the earth with a few tons of gunpowder and a tradition of poor hygiene!

And the non-human SPECIES we extincted? Show me a cat that ever killed a DODO!
We killed the entire friggin' SPECIES for food, in under 200 years!
We didn't even like the taste, they were just easy to catch!

The Passenger Pigeon? We didn't even EAT them, we were just bored, and they were easy to kill! So now they are EXTINCT!

Sheeeeeet....by the time 'homo sapiens' dies out, there won't be enough species left for CATS to ever catch up!

(And Baby Jesus still laughs when a bird chases off a cat.)

"Sailors used dodo meat to restock their food supplies, although the primary cause of extinction was probably the animals introduced by humans, which disrupted the ecosystem and became feral predators of the dodo; rats, pigs, monkeys, dogs, and cats were particular threats. The last dodo was killed in 1681."
http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=114219

I have read some similar acounts;
apparently the dodo had spent so much time evolving without natural predators, it was unprepared to resist ANY predators, even rats or cats(which it greatly outweighed)

And after re-reading my last posts, I wish to apologize. REALLY apologize!

I REALLY didn't mean to sound so harsh and dismissive of your opinions;
I just kinda went off on a tangent with that 'alien species' thing, to the point that I forgot what we were originally discussing.
I got carried away, and was just typing to see myself type.

Sorry.

For the record, I am aware that felines were introduced to the Americas recently, and that their effect upon the ecosystems here is still an ongoing process. (and NOT good for the native species)

Also, just in case you care: I really care about ALL animals.
When our cats catch a mouse, I bust my butt to take it away from them and release it outside.
Heavy gloves are involved. And occasionally, long thin scars are acquired. But I think that the mice appreciate it.

So, I'm sorry for being such a BUTT. I basically agree with what you said; I just think that we have BIGGER issues to deal with first.

Anything BEYOND that opinion was just me being a BUTT.
Please ignore it.

Sincerely,
Richard

I appreciate your post. As you have seen, some people's attitude toward the wishes of a property owner for a bird safe yard is nowhere near as tolerant as your last.
My yard is a small microcosm in our environment, but it is mine. The intolerance of my neighbor for my privacy is representative of a larger segment of society who fly off the handle at the mere suggestion the predation of feral and roaming cats on hundreds of millions of birds each year is unacceptable and must be stopped.
As you can see I'm learning as I go. I used the rovian touch by saying bird safe rather than cat free. Damn, I blew it! Be that as it may, my property will be bird safe if I have to take every roaming and feral cat in town to the SPCA!

against animals

How is it not cruelt to animals to allow pets to roam free?

If a human - of their free will, decides to intentionally harm an animal. They make a choice. If that choice is for food, I have no problem with it. If for ANY other reason - it is wrong.

Many animals , by instinct, will prey upon other animals. It is their way.

Those that cannot recognize the difference astound me.

then Jesus will do something about it.

And BTW, are you talking about Jesus or God? Those that cannot recognize the difference astound me.

I know a good bit about Catholicism. The Trinity is one entity in 3 forms - one of the mysteries.
And by the way, I am astounded by your ability to rationalize.

actually posted that I do with/to cats that are nuisances on my property.

She was abandoned because her owner moved. It took work and perseverance, after feeding her for four months, and, finally, a have-a-heart trap, to finally bring her inside, and almost $400 on her first vet visit. She had been out far too long. I just wish I'd known sooner. You may not agree, but preserving this valuable little life was important to me. After dental surgery, since she must have been in pain, she calmed down and became a beloved member of my family.:shrug:

O8)

All my guys are rescue, but this was the one pet who I rescued, myself, so she was very special and I rejoiced in her every victory. My other pets had not had to fend for themselves, except my dog, Sara, who is the friendliest dog on the planet. But this kitty did and was on her own for too long. At least I gave her some happy time. I lost her last year, after fighting the good fight, and still miss her terribly.;(

who killed someone they caught harming their cat. Without hesitation.

humans shd have a moral sense, cats act from instinct.

There is a difference between not wanting cats on ones property and being evil incarnate. There is a difference between sound environmental management principles and the whimsical anthropromorphic beliefs of cat fanciers. But you have taken the tact "if you don't agree with me then you are an evil cat killer".
Very Rovian. Good practice I suppose but kind of overkill for the tempest in a teapot we got going here.

I'm sick of rehashing this: it is estimated that house cats kill hundreds of millions of birds a year. Given the number of cats out there it is not an unreasonable estimate. Now cats themselves are not going to drive birds to extinction, although in certain island or island like circumstances they can be a significant factor. But they are one more damned thing on top of all of the other shit we have heaped upon birds detrimental to their survival. The individual does not see this, Puss gets a few birds, what the hell, there're plenty of them. It's a tragedy of the commons, plain & simple.

BTW, I voted yes because I'm such an ass.

the proper term is "tacK", as in trimming your sails. indicates a choice of direction. "tact" is the social skill that seems to be lacking in your post.

any observer of animals realize that cats have a VERY difficult time in killing birds, since they can't fly...

as per my social skill, well you just get tired.

I'll just assume you're joking about cat's hunting ability, must be or you hang out with retarded cats.

i feed birds for the amusement of my enclosed cats. i also feed strays in the neighborhood that owners won't take care of. for every fluff of feathers, i see MANy more frustrated cats. birds have opposed eyes and a wide field of vision. cats occasionally catch 1 unawares, most fly out of reach.

else there wd be very few birds, & i've never noticed a lack. feral cats prey, as do wolves, primarily on destructive rodents and bugs.

i posit that most cat-haters have a psychological agenda, having been raised to think of cats as a "female" pet. the posters in this thread that have gone to GREAT length to justify their anti-cat position need to reapparaise their attitude to the female of OUR species. Please note that not 1 is female.

birds die. cats die. humans die. the only deaths i'd hasten are humans cruel to animals.

i'd suggest that wheelie-alex feed those cats so they aren't interested in the birds he proposes to be so fond of.


BTW, my apologies for the "tacky" gramatical correction. was uncalled for, & off-topic.

Good of you to keep your cats indoors.
As per your observations, all predators have a low kill rate, otherwise they'd starve themselves in short time. It's the evolutionary dance of predator and prey. My objection to cats participating in this dance is that they are not native, and are making a bad situation for the natives worse.

Cats are not very particular in what they hunt and do not differentiate between destructive and nondestructive targets. Many beneficial reptiles and amphibians fall prey to them, as do some small mammals just minding their own business. And fed cats still hunt, it's what they do.

Your observations concerning cat haters and women will no doubt amuse ms blindpig.

The feral and roaming cat problem in America's ecology is similar to opposing the war. We attacked a virtually unarmed nation on trumped up charges. Half of us want it to end.
"What? you don't support the troops?"
We want the unnecessary deaths of hundreds of millions of birds each year to end, beginning with those in our yards.
"What? You want to kill little kittens?"

I surely do not say "If you don't agree with me then you are an evil cat killer." Someone who knows logic can help me out with what kind of fallacy you've employed here. I'm not educated but I know that doesn't make sense.

I was also very clear in the poll question I asked.

But it was fun being called "Rovian." :rofl:

If you're sick of rehashing it, Blindpig, you can ignore the threads. Obviously I'm not sick of it yet. I still can't believe so many liberals* would actually kill another's pet.

* Lurkers, freepers or not: it's clear from some responses that a few regulars would have someone's pet killed.

is that so many liberals have such little consideration for the environment.
The property rights issue is secondary for me but consider this: if my dogs get loose, enter someones property and attack their goats or chickens then they can be killed out of hand, legally. The difference between my dogs doing that and your cat killing birds on my property is that the birds are no ones property. Is that right? Guess it depends on what you value.

I don't want to kill anyones pet, I know the wrenching pain of losing a companion. Why is it that you cannot understand that some of us oppose the needless loss of native wildlife(not just birds, amphibians, reptiles and native mammals) to what are invasive organisms? Someone suggested belling pet cats, I think that is very helpful in reducing predation and identifying pets. Ferals are another story, they should not be tolerated any more than feral dogs are.

I will continue to manage my property for the benefit of native wildlife.

(please note that I live on 10 wooded acres, neighbors are few, the nearest 200 yards away. Feral cats are common, that nearest neighbor complained about them when we moved in, so they're not their pets)

I think a whole lot of folks have made this assumption, and it is flatly absurd.

I value all life. From wanting death rows eradicated to wanting penalties in every state for anyone who lets an unaltered cat out the door.* Christ, I weep if I have to kill vermin.

I value wildlife. I merely do not believe cats are such a great threat to it that their lives are to be valued less.

"Why is it that you cannot understand that some of us oppose the needless loss of native wildlife." I totally understand -- I agree! I just don't think it's right to KILL a cat for acting out its nature! Take action against the cat's owner if you must. Clearly, steps can be taken to deal with nuisance cats and their owners. IMO it is wrong to kill an animal as one of those steps.

"Ferals are another story, they should not be tolerated any more than feral dogs are."

Why not? I'm not being obtuse; I really want to know what you have to say. Your reason may be different from others'.

* Obvious problems w/ this, but it would be nice.

because they are not part of the natural biota of this area. Invasive species are one of the primary causes of native species decline. Feral cats & dogs, starlings, wild hogs, fire ants, armadillos(in the East) domestic rats & mice,walking catfish, nutria, kudzu, introduced insects and plants so numerous it's scary, all are detrimental to our wildlife and native flora. It's bad enough that we humans have displaced so much of nature, these predators and competitors from elsewhere make matters worse. In an ideal world none of them would exist in the wild in North America.

North America is no longer pristine but that is no excuse to let our natural habitats go entirely to hell. If excluding invasive species helps maintain the natural biota then it should be done. We've lost so, so much already.

to roam free trespassing, pissing, and shitting on my property, and killing the birds who nest here, it will get a ride to the SPCA. Whether it is euthanized is not my responsibility, but yours!

I wouldn't allow my cats to roam, unattended, anymore than I would let my dogs. It's a dangerous world out there, obviously.
:scared:

come on people!