Does anyone think bugs are more conscious than we give them credit for?

Doesn't there seem to be some shared event horizion, some shared sense of reality that we coexist with bugs in?

You know, like how a bug knows, or thinks he knows just what the fuck you're thinking when he's running away from you - how he acts sneaky, hiding under things...

I just wonder what bugs are thinking. I've got some spiders in my bathroom at my flopspot, and they seem to take turns hanging out in specific roosts, almost like they have a little community, a little team. I can tell them apart by their thickness, so I can tell that they rotate positions.

their nervous systems are far too primitive...it's all instinct. People tend to fall into the trap of anthropomorphising what looks like "purposeful" behaviour.

when something runs the heck away from me, I can identify with that instinct.

At what line tcan we say consciousness exists? What separates it from instinct?

What's the lowliest creature that is considered conscious?

based on what's currently known about neural development, birds, reptiles and fish don't possess the brain structures necessary for what we consider "consciousness"...

Higher mollusks (cephalopods like octopuses and cutlefish) have shown to be quite intelligent and many birds use tools and some understand rudimentary linguistics.

Who's to say that they don't possess a level of conciousness that- although different than ours- is just as sentient?

Thus far, my understanding is that only chimps have been shown to possess self recognition in terms of mirrors- chimps sedated and marked with a big red dot on their head will mess around with it (bonobos also show similar behavior), whereas other primates and mammals don't seem to be able to recognize that it's them staring back.

arguably, some birds...say, the African grey parrot...are what we'd call "intelligent"...molluscs I don't know about; minimal self-awareness is part of "consciousness" in most definitions, though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octopus

"Octopuses are highly intelligent, probably the most intelligent of the invertebrates. Maze and problem-solving experiments show that they have both short- and long-term memory, although their short lifespans limit the amount they can ultimately learn.

An octopus has a highly complex nervous system, only part of which is localized in its brain. Two-thirds of an octopus's neurons are found in the nerve cords of its arms, which have a remarkable amount of autonomy. Octopus arms show a wide variety of complex reflex actions arising on at least three different levels of the nervous system.

In laboratory experiments, octopuses can be readily trained to distinguish between different shapes and patterns. They are able to open jars after learning from observation <1>. Octopuses have also been engaged in what may be described as play; repeatedly releasing bottles or toys into a circular current in their aquariums and then catching them. Octopuses often break out of their aquariums (and sometimes into others) in search of food. They have even boarded fishing ships and opened holds to eat crabs."

It seems to me that this is an awfully fuzzy definition on which to base a scientific opinion. How exactly does one quantify the degree to which a living thing, or even a robot, is "self aware."

into believing that there is some difference in quality between us and other animals. We are just bugs with a consciousness that makes sense to us, and thus we assume it is the standard to judge other creatures by.

I figure they have a purpose. I don't kill them unless they are trying to harm someone.

most people believe. And I absolutely don't care that more scientifically oriented people tell me I "anthropomorphise".

The literal "bird brain" has turned out to be different from ours but capable of the same things; and that's just one example. More and more scientists agree with things about animals that people who simply love and observe them have known always.

I know that my desert jumping mice were able to see a problem, think about an answer, plan a strategy and even deceive to reach their desire; so do my horses. That both the mice and the horses have family ties as complex as ours is a fact; that they feel love, envy, lonelyless, grief is a fact. That they are not able to build the Eiffel Tower or fly to the moon - well, so what? First of all they are not physically equipped to do so, secondly they have no desire to do so; and the world would be much better off if we weren't, either... I think it's all just a matter of degree.

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Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

...finds a pang as great as when a giant dies." - Wm. Shakespeare, Measure for Measure

but then again, I don't care. Except for the fact that insects provide food to some mammals, I wouldn't give a shit if they were all exterminated off the face of the planet. I hate bugs, suffer from entomophobia, and would be happy for eternity if they were gone.

knows he's damned lucky to have a spot inside my home. :7

One day, he even hung out with me while I surfed DU, just kind of sitting next to my keyboard. Then he climbed up on top of my PC and just kept a watchful eye for awhile. He's a cool little guy. Just a plain little black jumping spider.