I'm afraid I must vent, apologies in advance.

Some of you may remember that my wife and I adopted a rescue dog from West Virginia, he was tied out and left to die when his previous owners moved.

This guy here:


This dog loves us, and is very hyperprotective. He also is not fond of strangers.

My parents and my sister came to visit us on Saturday. They all knew this dog's story and all have been told to keep clear of him.

My sister, being a way-beyond-normal animal lover, decided after many warnings that the dog could "feel how much she loved him" and walked very briskly to where he was on his trolley. He, of course, bit her. Not a flesh-ripping, tendon exposing bite, just a very hard pinch with his front teeth. Skin was broken, and there was some blood.

Now I am in deep shit with my family for having such a "hostile animal".

Now, my wife and I know the dog, and his dislike for most people. We take precautions to keep him confined. He is never allowed out without a leash, or on his steel tether. He does not pull on his tether, as he does not like the pressure on his neck when he does, so there is no real concern of him breaking a cable tested to 1800 pounds. When people come to the door, we put him in his crate. We try to be responsible. When we took him out of his crate and put him on his tether, we were clear that it was okay to talk to him, toss him a ball, anything but stick a hand out to him or get within his tether range.

So now we wrestle with the question: should we put this dog down? Take him to an animal behavior specialist for evaluation?

I need a little guidance, and welcome opinion.

The dog is okay around you and the wife, just make sure you keep him/her tied down tight.....

If it happens again, even with you there, then maybe you should consider it....

and she takes direction less well than most people 1/50th of her age.

But I can't totally excuse the dog. Our trainer said that he can be worked out of it, as he is less than 2 years old and with GSDs their habits aren't locked in completely until 3.

No options are off the table yet.

Invest in the training....

Your sister was warned several times, but chose to ignore you.

DO NOT put down that dog.
You might want to re-think inviting your sister over, since she is incapable of listening to you.

(sorry, I'm in a pissy mood.)

I'm feeling a little pissy too.

My mother just called me at work and stated that the dog was a "good way to rid yourself of your family".

Nice.

is entitled to one free bite.

After that, he's a "biter," and just might get the Green Needle.

But, if this dog is that dangerous, you're inviting trouble if he ever gets near anyone again, and hurts them. It sounds like there are a lot of things wrong with the poor fellow, and if his reputation is known - that he's "violent" - you would face some serious civil suits if he ever bit anyone again.

I'm a dog-lover, but it sounds to me like putting him down might be a deliverance. The one thing I know about dogs like this is that they cannot have that kind of behavior trained out of them.

Right now, you probably should not let him be around anyone. Sounds like the presence of other people raises his anxiety level. That's dangerous.

Damn, but you've got a problem. I wish you luck.

thanks for the legal perspective. He actually does warm up to people, over time. My stepdaughter, her husband, and their daughter are well in his good graces, even accepting hugs and ear pulls.

We will keep all options open, though. We do not wish anyone to be hurt. We do not have anything to lose in a civil suit, but we do not want to be in the papers as "those" dog owners.

But it varies by state. In Georgia, we now have a municipal ordinance exception to the "one free bite rule" that OldLeftieLawyer mentioned above. If a town has a leash law, for example, and a dog is roaming off the leash, and it bites (regardless of whether the owner knows the dog has bitten before), the owner can still be held liable.

But as it stands, you have already met the "scienter" requirement, i.e. you know the dog bites. You're on notice that it's dangerous, and you can be held liable for any injury that the dog causes, either on or off your property.

Your decision must conform to your own risk-tolerance level. Is keeping the dog worth the risk that it might bite someone else? Tough call, I know. Best of luck with your decision.

-Laelth

:)

Have you ever tried Bach flower remedies? They supposedly work wonders for pets with behaviour issues. :(

my wife has been crying since it happened at the thought of having him killed.

He gets another chance, for sure.

yes, give him another chance.

And I've heard great things about bach flower remedies. It sounds like odd treatment, but apparently it works for animals. :) (you can get them in most health food stores)
since I'm no vet, maybe a vet who has an interest in homeopathic, etc, treatments can advise. :)

Good luck. And don't worry. :) Please keep us posted. :)

http://www.petsynergy.com/flower.html

please check out this site and read down. :)

our Newfoundland attacked our aunt under similar circumstances. Only she was dragged around the backyard a few times.
She need a lot of stitches.

What about kids. You can tell them a million times not to bother the dog, but they don't always listen.

I have a mild mannered Corgi, but he will snap if he thinks someone is taking his food.

If you think he will bite, I guess a muzzle is in order when others are around.

Please don't take chances.

we do have a lot of family coming around Thanksgiving, and he is going to a boarding facility. He loves the trainer/boarding lady.

you gave plenty of clear and detailed warning
she knew the dogs backstory

she went ahead and challenged him (on his new territory)
that is not his fault and he should not lose his life over it

and yes
if you are able to please also learn whatever you can about helping him
his behavior is entrenched for reasons that are very powerful and traumatic for him so whatever love and firm guidance and support you can give him will go a long way but he will likely have that element to him for the rest of his life
but you probably already knew that....

love and loving discipline can go a long way no matter the person or animal but its not likely to completely erase ones painful life history

thank you to you both for loving him and wanting to give him a home (sounds like he hasnt had that before)

I need to redouble my training efforts, I think. And I think the behavior specialist could give us some insight as well.

and that sounds like a wonderful response

again thank you both
and a hug for your dog (if he is ok with it~)
ha

best wishes

You sound like you're on the right track.

However, your sister does not. She broke your protocol, and your dog shouldn't have to take the heat for that.

It's obvious you're doing all you can to do right by everyone. Good luck.

(We "rescued" a lab from a broken home, so I have a smidge of a clue where you're coming from. He can be pretty neurotic, but he's definitely worth the extra work.)

and no less than a dozen prior to her visit.

I'm going to exhaust every option prior to that "final" option.

We try to keep everyone safe, and it would probably work if all cooperated.

Super sensitive around strangers. He's an Aussie Cattle Dog (herders can be a tad protective and wary around strangers).

Unfortunately, they were not very successful with a trainer, but they've made the decision to adapt their life around him. So, they keep him sequestered when company visits. He's absolutely fine with me and with visitors he knows well.. it's those first few meetings that he seems to get unnecessarily uptight and potentially nippy.

I think an evaluation is a good first start. If you can live with him, and make necessary modifications when company arrives, you may be ok.

:hug:

with his blanket and favorite stuffed duck for when visitors come around, or when we leave the house for anything over 10 minutes.

We thought we were doing so well, I guess we just need to tweak our protection protocol a little.

have been ok, so then we naturally get a bit more lax. My parents once made the decision to let their pooch be in the living room with company because he was acting unusually calm. A family friend leaned in to pet him, and he nipped the friend.

I think it happens. Accidents happen. Sounds like you're trying to do the best for you and your pooch, and that's what matters. :)

Sorry for sounding harsh--this really pisses me off though.

any animal lover ought to know, you do NOT jump up and SUDDENLY walk BRISKLY towards an animal that does not know you. Even one who does know you, its still a little iffy to me about jumping up and making sudden moves like that.

Once some guy was allowing his loud, hyper, rough-playing toddler to pile on my little Weenie, who is only 7 pounds. I had been trying to keep him away from her, but was distracted by alot going on in the room. Naturally he went for it when I was looking elsewhere.

The father tried to yell at me when Weenie snapped. Boy did I let him have it. I had clearly been trying to keep her out of the kid's path. I think Daddy has a responsability or two....

Well, I drifted there, but it seems similar to me. They are blaming you, who have been going to maximum lengths to protect people from your dog, who isn't stable yet. I just get very angry at people who can't behave responsably, and then blame any ensuing emergency on anyone but themselves.

And no its not fair, but if anything happened again, you and your beautiful dog would be the ones to pay. x(

to make sure it never happens again. We only took him out of his crate and put him on his trolley outside at the urging of my parents, who thought he should be outside to enjoy the nice weather.

Damned if we do, damned if we don't...

so sorry it had to happen. :(

Hope things smooth out.

But anyone who hasspent any length of time around animals (particularly dogs) knows that it is especially problematic for a stranger to briskly approach a strange dog *on their territory*. That's just Doggie 101. Even if the dog has no known problems with strangers, it is always a good idea to err on the side of caution and give the animal time to feel comfortable around you before invading his space. It isn't like the dog just ran towards her and attacked her. She approached him, in his own space, briskly, and probably making eye contact with him the whole time too (which is "threatening" posture). She made a number of serious mistakes around a strange dog, not the least of which approaching the dog AT ALL, which she was repeatedly told not to do.

You obviously warned her clearly that this dog isn't vicious, he is just not fond of strangers. It's nice that your sister is such an animal lover and all, but it sounds like you guys are being completely responsible about this and she was the one who should have known better.

I definitely would never put the dog down. You sister on the other hand seems like she may need some help comprehending simple directions :)

Seriously though - you sound really responsible with this dog and you deserve to be commended for it. I'm so sorry this is happening but it isn't your fault or the dog's. Hang in there, ok? :hug:

On edit: I forgot to add that I would absolutely try a behavioral therapist for the doggie. It can only help him, right? Please let us know how it goes if you decide to try some behavioral training!

who can apparently evaluate him. We are very seriously thinking about it, we just need to save our pennies for it.

The sad part is, this little family get-together was to help me put up a fence so we can bring our horse home from his boarding stable and keep him with us.

Needless to say, the fence is not done yet....

We'll stick with him, we will just be more stringent on our precautions.

I boarded my horses out for years and years until we finally bought a farm (only 12 acres, but it is heaven) :) Do you have a barn or will you just do a run-in? Having the horses home is a lot of work but it is every horse owner's dream!

with a back-up stall available (if there are no freshening milk-cows or babies there).

We also have a very warm coat for the really nasty nights.

protection when he's in the vicinity of anything that he may cause harm to.



A specialist? Possibly, but it's hard to find a good one; only do it if you can afford the very, very best. Check out the 'dog whisperer' guy, his last name is Chavez I think, google it. He might have some advice.

But the soft muzzle is very effective and keeps everyone safe and causes no harm to the dog.

http://www.lovemypet.com.au/mall/more-mp-dog-soft-muzzle.asp

I've been through this. It isn't easy and the constant drama is very taxing; now you know why the people left him behind...

It's hard to have to make a decision about his future. If you're willing to commit to the constant drama of keeping him safe and your family, friends and neighborhood safe, then it's a lot of work. If he's a good dog and loyal to you, and gives you great love and devotion, then he earns his chance. If you're fearful of him for your own safety, and for everyone else's, sadly the choice may well be to have him put down, for the well being of all concerned.

It's not a crime to euthanize an animal that is harmful to society. Some animals can be rehabilitated, absolutely, but the fear and the lack of trust, that niggling of worry will always be there. Unfortunately in this world with animals as our companions, we cannot save every single one. Sometimes, once in a great while, it's time to make room for another animal that isn't cause for great concern and that cause harm.

I turned our dog in to a really good AC shelter. She wasn't a direct threat, but had nipped people, had attacked another dog of mine, and was very, very aggressive with anyone she didn't know, although she never actually, outright attacked anyone human. She had attacked other dogs; she caused $4000 in vet bills in my smaller dog. At least the $4000 wasn't a human...

The shelter was willing to place her in a specific home that would be aware of her quirks, and they did. I got VERY lucky, but I also had good connections. Placing a large dog with the same type of problems is next to impossible in this day and age.

Best of luck, give the soft muzzle a go, and don't let people make you feel guilty if you have to make the hardest possible choice for all concerned. Like I said, we can't save every single one. ((((big hugs)))

for when we took him camping. He did so well in a campground (under very very tight control).

We are going to try a few things, he is well worth the effort.

You have a dog, a beautiful but traumatized dog. One that will take time to trust people again.

Only not trust people - just one person at a time. It's a slow process. And not a lot of fun.


If you adopted an abused child would you have it euthanized? NO, of course not!


Give him time, love, attention, kindness, a chance to rebuild trust. It might be a never ending struggle, he may never trust everyone again.


But put him down? Are you insane? Obviously he is learning to start trusting people again, slowly. It might even take forever - but the rewards are worth it.


Why do we expect more from animals than we do from people?


Khash.

but for this dog, killing him will be the very last option. We know a breeder/trainer that could probably place him in a proper environment if we are unable to deal with him.

But he is so good with us, and our regular visitors. We really have no wish to be rid of him.

And if you could see his eyes when he looks at us...I've never seen anything like it.

1.Take the dog to a professional trainer -expensive but it really pays off.

2. Buy a muzzle for your sister. People who do know animals, know when to back off, but she doesn't.


Khash.

gonna happen.

2. I'm thinking more along the lines of a gag-ball, it would save people a lot of grief.

....but I only wish the dog had ripped her arm from her body and consumed it whole while she watched.

I hate people who are...well, okay...there's no nice way to say this... dumb to the f--king extreme.

What kind of self-absorbed IDIOT would walk BRISKLY up to a dog they'd been told NUMEROUS TIMES was traumatized, jesus CHRIST this is bad for my blood pressure.

So what, be honest, she thinks she's the Poca-f--king-hontas of the neurotic, abused dog world? CHRIST.

Did somebody hit this woman in the face with the stupid-stick, or was it a voluntary glue-sniffing kind of thing?

Please, please please, don't put the dog down. This is a classic Darwin case where the offender needs to be neutralized to avoid spreading more of the same behavior.

And she's fifty?

Christ on a carousel.

God. Damn.

</rant>

Wow...you just gave me the first hearty laugh I've had in several days. Thanks for that! Although it may be a tad bit offensive to some, trust me I am so on the same page you are :)

:D Thanks for your praise. *Musing, attack of the ego* Maybe I should write a book...

Naaah.

:hug:

I talked to her on the phone tonight and got her to see that she fucked up in a large way.

Some folks just apparently need to learn the hard way.

Thank you for being nice about my acidic reply, and well done for getting her to see the light.

Praise jaysus.

:hug:

You told your sister he would bite. She didn't believe you. He bit. I don't think it's the dog's fault. Your dog is just being protective of you.

Go with the muzzle to be safe when people are over. Your sis was dumb to approach the dog and you warned her.

So long as you leave him crated when you aren't home so he can't eat a neighborhood kid, you should be fine.
Sometimes dogs bite when they feel threatened.

you're liable and you're going to get your ass sued. What's worse is that it could bite a child. Then what would happen?

If it were my dog...that is IF...I would take the dog and bring it to an animal shelter or even put it down. It's better than putting it in a crate, putting a muzzle around its mouth, and/or keeping it on a tether.

"I would take the dog and bring it to an animal shelter or even put it down. It's better than putting it in a crate, putting a muzzle around its mouth, and/or keeping it on a tether."

:wtf: I hope you don't ever own any animals if that would be your reaction.

the well-being of a person over the well-being of a dangerous animal.

:eyes:

I don't really consider them people. I consider them the rejects of natural selection.



Hmm...maybe that's wrong, but...eh.

Maybe someday, more human beings can get over their species-ism and actually expand their compassion to other living beings.

Like I said, I hope you have no pets. If you'd so quickly resort to dumping them off on someone else or killing them you don't ever deserve the responsibility to care for one.

I do have compassion for animals. I love them. I've owned a cat for going on 14 years now. I love her like a human. If I didn't have compassion for animals, then I wouldn't be a liberal, correct?

I'm quick to dumping animals off if they posed a threat around people. If I had a dog that was a danger to my family and my neighbors, do you think I'd keep it? Hell no! I don't want to get sued if the dog were to bite someone. Hell, I wouldn't want to live with the guilt if the animal killed a little kid. Would you want to?

So excuse me for valuing my family over aggressive dogs.

So, before you go on and judge me, maybe you should get to know me a little first.

I have no desire to know anyone who would just dump their pets without at least trying to fix the situation first. Truly - not in the least. You stated that "if it were your dog" who did that you would "take it to an animal shelter" or "even put it down." I do not think that is being a responsible owner. I think every option needs to be exhausted before that occurs, and you may have *meant* to say that but you didn't. And besides, if the OP's dog were yours, you would have known when you got the dog he has behavioral issues and chose to adopt him anyway. If you weren't prepared for that kind of situation you had no business bringing the pet into your home, period. Unless and until every option and remedy and vet and behavior specialist has been thoroughly exhausted, then in *my* opinion there is no valid reason to dump the pet or have him PTS (nad even then I'm not sure). I put up with a lot from my pets because they ARE my children and my family. I wouldn't kill my dog or cat for doing something hurtful or irresponsible any more than I would my child.

If you have an animal who has shown aggression towards others, you either knew it when you got it or you helped make the dog that way. Either way, at the very least you owe it to that dog to try and fix the behavior in as many different ways you can )vets, behavioral specialists, training, etc). If you don't care to make that commitment then like I said - please don't ever own a pet. When I say pets are lifetime commitments, I mean it. It's very plain. Same as any member of my family.

IMHO alone, there is never a valid reason to dump a pet at a shelter. Ever. I've been working in rescue many years and have yet to hear a valid reason for any of the thousands of dogs and cats people dump on someone else every year. Just dumping a living being off on someone else to just deal with isn't ever the answer.

....they have nothing to bitch about. It's as silly as them disowning you for your sister touching a scalding pot of water after you told her it was boiling.

But you do need to invest in some good training ASAP. Eventually, the dog could get near someone who wasn't warned, and then the responsibility will fall on you. Sadly, all the training in the world won't change a dog's way in many instances. I'd prepare for that possibility, and then putting him down may have to be the outcome. It's sad, but that is what these bastards who abuse animals end up causing.

it sounds like taking him to a professional is definitely the way to go. I also believe that you should explore every option before doing anything drastic. I agree with using a muzzle and just keeping him away from others until he can become more socialized. Good luck - peace and light to all of you :-)

We just had to put our old German Shepard down. He lived a long full life, but... well he was pretty sick.
His bite story is this, and it was almost totally our fault;
We took our kids to a Metallica concert out here in the "Gorge" an outdoor amphitheater. We camped on site (Call me stupid, I don't mind--- I forgot how kids party ALL NIGHT LONG) Anyway the bite happened before we spent that horrible night. We had him tied well within the boundaries of our camp. My son was sitting on the steps of our camper. My husband and I are sitting inside playing cards. Some idiot kid comes up to our camp, walks up to my son and says "Hey man, you got any fungus?" (This is when I learned the new what the new teenage vernacular was for psychedelic mushrooms) Our dog promptly bit him. Not bad, more of a warning bite, this is (was dammit)a huge Shepard. He thought he was protecting us. But it broke the skin. The kid ran and told security. I had forgotten his shot records. He had to spend the night in dog jail. We had to go to dog court. The judge just said kind of what the poster above said, he gets one bite. The judge was very nice and understood the kid walked in our campsite within range of a Very Large, Very Visable tied dog, but still--one bite. Well he never bit anybody again. He was a sweet dog, and I miss the hell out of him.

Please don't put your dog down, he deserves a chance!

Your sister fucked up in a big way; hopfully she'll realize that and apologize.

There have been alot of good advice given, so I won't add anything other than to say thank you for giving the beautiful animal another chance at life. That's a fantastic thing to do, and I salute you:)

and actually did apologize.

We are going to take the dog to a pro, and until then we will just be extra-stringent in our protection procedures.

Your sister was given ample warning to stay clear of the dog, and she chose to ignore the warning. The dog did not approach her, she invaded his space and provoked the attack.

At the most you should consider some behavioral therapy if you think the dog might respond to it, but please don't put him down for something he did not initiate.

I'm more of a cat person than I am a dog person (though I'm fond of anyone with four legs and fur), but even I know that you simply DO NOT approach *any* dog the way she did, especially not a skittish one. The poor dog thought he was being attacked yet again and did the only reasonable thing to do: protect himself.

Yes, get behavioral training. I think this is a big must for any dog (I have two large canine nephews) and will help him with his socialization and help him realize that not all humans suck. He may be a special-handling-needs dog all his life, but it sounds like you two are more than up to the responsibilities of making him feel safe and secure and keeping him where he can't bite.

Good luck! He's a beautiful boy, and very lucky to have found kind and patient people to give him a safe, loving home.

everyone's replies, but my immediate reaction is please don't even consider putting him down. You guys are being responsible, warning others of his temperament because of his past....I'm sure you're extra careful when children are around.

Perhaps an animal "therapist" of some sort would be an option, simply to seek help for this poor soul who was traumatized, and to learn ways for you to help him even more.

It's wonderful you've adopted him....you're all very lucky....:loveya:

specialist might come up with some ways of helping your dog become more socialized and accepting of people around him, especially those people whom you yourselves love and accept.

dog has and is showing his love for you where you saved him and took him out of a really bad environment.

You should also get your sister some behavior help as you did everything necessary about warning those who were at your home about your pet's background, nothing more you could do there and you would think you would not have to keep an eye on an adult sister.

I think he deserves a chance to have a life. If you can't take him out for a walk or a little freedom and he has to stay totally confined, try the behavior specialist first and see what he says.

He has a right to a good home, love and some freedom.

Your sister should have listened to what you said or at least expected what happened since she didn't listen. But, as I am sure you are aware, kids don't understand that (obviously neither did your sis) and they often approach dogs in the wrong manner. Just be very very careful when others are around. I board my dogs when people come over b/c they can be a tad too protective and wary.I think as long as you take extra precautions, you and your dog will be fine.

It's insane to think that the dog is at fault when it was your sister is the one that couldn't be controlled.

Obviously, your sister is a nutjob (that comes from another "way-beyond-normal animal lover" too) to have done that.

That's a GSD of sorts, right? A very hard pinch? That dog warned her. If that were such a "hostile animal" you'd be visiting your sister in the hospital.

Don't put the dog down. That's a little extreme. I think you're already on the right track, and being very responsible. Unfortunately, you'll also have to be more responsible for the folks that can't be the same (sis).

Good luck, and thanks for adopting that sweetheart. Give him time.

and he is very sweet with about 5 people.

I asked my sister if she was within range for him to rip her to pieces or at the extreme range of his tether. She stated that she was well within his reach.

She actually said she was sorry, which is a good sign.

The dog is safe, no injection for him.

I know it's been said several times before, but you seem so responsible and thoughtful about this whole thing. Good to know there's some level-headed folks here at DU (sometimes I wonder, even about myself lol) :) You're a very, very good person for giving this guy a home and for being such a responsible, rational owner :hug:

And we're all smart enough to stay away from her when we're over her house. (Actually, I'm the only one outside of my sister's immediate family she won't go after - I get feeding duty when they're on vacation which is probably why).

Your sister is the one that needs behaviour modification for not heeding your requests :evilgrin:

she has seen the error of her ways.

And she begged me not to hurt the dog.

you can control the dog without hurting it.

Glad to hear the dog will be ok and your sister finally gets it :D

Think the dog is worth working with? Keep him.
Think he's going to be a problem and you can't handle it? Find someone who can work with him. Don't put him down.

She knew to give him wide berth. You are responsible. Now, you may want to look into behavioural training for the dog-but I assume you sister is fully understanding of the words "Stay away from the dog." I think SHE needs a little time out in HER crate.

For the dog and maybe for your sister, too. It doesn't sound like the dog is mentally unstable, just recovering from a difficult start. And it sounds like you are willing to take necessary precautions to keep strangers away from the dog until he can cope better.

Also, as others have mentioned, the Dog Whisper show might be informative to watch. http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/dogwhisperer/

I have been watching for the past few weeks. What the host guy does with dogs is amazing.

Good luck. Your dog is very cute!

Just keep assholes away from him from now on. If she loved animals that much she would have sat far away from him with her back to him and let him come to her, or not. She's a poser.