Why kill the does during hunting season?

Why not the bucks, who do the - uh - bucking?

If everyone shoots bucks only, then the species declines too rapidly, and the gene pool becomes too small.

The only buck I have ever shot was a spikehorn that had been hit by a car. I put it out of it's misery and tagged it. Hunt over.

I leave the bucks for the "horn hunters".

You're allowed *some* does to keep the pop down. But really, if you shoot bucks only, you'd have to kill the whole population for a reduction.

One buck and five does can make some ten fawns in one season.

One doe and five bucks can make maybe two.

In NY, where I grew up, you had to have a specific license to shoot doe. And you could only get one per season, I think. Bucks, you could take out as many as you wanted to, IIRC.

This year in Michigan, the county I live in has over 9000 private land antlerless permits available, and I can get one per day. Plus, there is an additional late gun season from December 19 to January 1. If I were inclined (which I am not) or good enough (which I am also not) I could take 2 dozen does this year.

We are only allowed 2 bucks, I believe.

I know a few hunters who think it is "unmanly" to take a doe. I just want to put meat on the table.

yuck

:shrug:

Most hunters I know kept their hunts legal. If they didn't have a doe tag they wouldn't shoot a doe. Trust me not all hunters are like that. I could site an instance where someone shot a doe thinking it was buck. When they realized the contrary they just let the carcass rot in the woods.
Most hunters I knew were not selective about the bucks they took. If they had a reason to think the deer was legal they would take it. Even a serious, die-hard, dedicated hunter may only have a chance at taking a truly trophy animal once or maybe twice is his hunting life.

Of course, I eat meat again now, in fact just had a couple pork chops.

I have no principles whatsoever!

:cry:

We have a veg*n group here at DU and we'd be glad to help you should you decide you're ready to go veg.

No pressure, just an offer to keep in mind for when you're ready.

or whatever, LOL. I do lurk over there from time to time.

It comes down to laziness and not enough knowledge. I wasn't the smartest vegetarian (I lived on pizza, bagels, and fake hot dogs :) ) and now I have a kiddo so I have to be serious about enough iron, protein, etc.

I am thinking about it though. Just yesterday I told her we might go veggie. I said it while she was having a Happy Meal.... duh, LOL!

:hi: Thanks for the invite to the group!

How long ago were veg? I've only been for a few years and the selection of fast and easy veg foods has increased SO much in just a few years! Not to mention that the tastiness of the veg foods have gone up a LOT...the stuff even 2 years ago was like cardboard, and now none of my meat-eating friends can tell when I make chili, tacos, etc with the vegetarian stuff.

When and if you want to look into it, come on over to our "tofu ghetto" as one of our members calls it :) Meat really isn't the best source of iron and protein anyway, plus when you add up the negatives meat has on your health, it really puts the whole thing in perspective. Plus, a vegetarian diet really has so many health benefits and really no health drawbacks...so it's good for kids too.

Anywho, sorry to blab on...just wanted to say we'd love to see you at our DU veggie group, so drop in sometime!

:hi:

1 buck can impregnate multiple (hundreds) of does. If a population is too crowded, an agency might start issuing doe tags to remove the number of does, beacues removing bucks has a very small impact on the number of fawns in the coming year.

with the standard hunting/Sporting liscence. Does can be taken but with only an additional permit that the hunter has to apply for. Maine is into deer season now. Bow season started in October.
They do this to keep the population's reproductive capacity high. One poster said that it only takes one buck to breed with many does. So you take most of the bucks and most of the does are left alone.

This type of management centers around keeping hunters happy and liscence fees coming in. It is not management designed for the benefit and future well being of the deer population.

Actually, during the Maine archery season I do believe you can take bucks and does. The doe tag reg comes into play during rifle and muzzleloader season.

Doe season is longer because there are more. BTW, there is a point to hunting deer. If we didn't, there'd be too many and extinction would be on the horizon...
Duckie

but what I am seeing is some regional differences in the way the deer herds are managed. Up here in Maine the number of does are not the problem, there are plenty of does and plenty of bucks. So they limit the number of does taken in a given year. Bucks, on the other hand are fair game the entire hunting season.
My permanent residence is on an island on the mid-Maine coast. Only archery is allowed on the Island. Rifle or muzzleloader would be too dangerous given the proximity of private homes and such. Any way, I have seen two bucks that stay on the Island. I was able to get a quick glimpse of one during the rutting season last year. Easily an 8-10 pointer, definitely 200 pounds or better. A trophy animal in every respect. Problem is he knows he has a good hide out on the Island and likely won't leave it. The largest deer are always the most nervous.

But that's just me. :shrug:

But unless you are inclined to start a human hunting season, you're out of luck.
No doubt, urban sprawl is spreading into forested areas and the deer are 'adapting' to it. A few years ago I saw a band of does in an exclusive suburb of Boston. You could have driven to Fenway Park in 15 minutes.
It's the same all over.
What's the solution? A hunting season? Well I don't think crowded suburbs and men shooting at deer with guns or bows & arrows is very safe. Birth Control? I have heard of this but the use of it is almost totally impractical and expensive. If you could find an easy, and cheap, way to spread the treatment among the herd of a particular area then you may have something. Rellocation? Unless you are willing to go exceptional distances to rellocate it is likely that the deer will find their way back to the same place. They can be particularly attached to home range.
What is the solution? I don't know. None of the options seem very good.
One could even argue that the phenominon is breeding a type of 'suburban deer'
Most people would be excited to see a doe and her fawn in their back yard one morning. That enthusiasm tends to dry up fast when they have raided your garden and browsed on your plants and shrubs.


:shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug:

It's a problem all over the US. Deer love suburbs.

Including pre-Columbus.

Never thought I'd ever be a fan of hunting but that's one form of hunting I'd be VERY enthusiastic about.

I just get sick of people saying how overpopulated the deer are. Really, it is humans who are overpopulated and encroaching into the deer's environments. Since Pennsylvania was just named the #1 state for highest car-deer accident rates, I am all too familiar with hearing that as an excuse to kill more deer, too.

I just don't buy any of those arguments, and never will.

its a biological concept known as maximum sustainable carrying capacity or KCC. Has to do with habitat and enviromental factors.

Wildlife game managers are geeks

Except that when I have heard the term it is usually in the context of commercial fishery stocks and not some deer herd.

http://www.cri-bsu.org/NatRes/DeerWorkshop/mccaffery_narative.htm

had to read it 3 times myself

That's like the sixth time I've read posts in this thread and read "does" as like "he does not want to go." I'm like WTF does "because killing does is much more effective?" That makes no sense!

:banghead:

friesianrider on 19+ hours without sleep = no good :)

I just took a nap so I could work late.

:cry:

I am trying to finish a presentation I have to present at a research conference tomorrow. I'm just about finished now thank God...

Sleep deprivation can do some nasty things to one's body!

If you want to keep a wildlife population in check, the hunt or 'kill' is the best way to do it. It is the most cost effective means. Let's face it not even some of the most left-wing governments on the state level are going to put up massive amounts of tax revenue to keep the deer herd in check. What are the options?
If you want to keep certain types of wildlife around and keep it healthy you're going to need to introduce the population check. Either a hunter shoots it or another natural predator stalks and kills it. Nature works that way.

You can't just hunt males. Just like humans, one male can impregnate any number of females. So you don't solve the population problem by hunting males (theres always gonna be another one sniffing around)- besides it's bad genetically. More and more mothers having babies by fewer and fewer fathers. Give it a couple generations and you've got major trouble.

So if you wanna control the population and keep it balanced you have to kill the ones who actually make the babies (the females).


Khash,
(If you kill it, you eat it)

even wildlife management isn't immune from politics. In the management of certain species of wildlife the focus is providing hunters with an experience or prize. It has been this way for some time. The size or content of the gene pool is often overlooked.

I have heard it argued that those bucks that manage to evade the hunters and grow to full size or beyond are smarter and better physically and thus the herd will still maintain a strong gene pool. Sounds kind of dubious to me.

and currently the people in charge have no concept of or actively oppose science. So things like hunting become wildly out of whack.

As for the big bucks you mention.... seriously dubious - you can't mantain a viable gene pool with so little diversity. Interestingly enough, I was reading about this.... there are bucks who look like does. They are less often hunted (no antlers for a prize) and have more access to does (not seen as competition by other males) so they may be more important to maintaining the species.

Khash.

Those bucks that look like does will not get shot at and thus become your breeders. Transgender deer. Weird wild stuff.

Cougars are the natural control for deer, par excellance. If you look at their range maps they match almost perfectly except where humans have exterminated the cats. On average one cougar will take a deer every 10 days. They are the cat's favorite food in natural situations, raccoons take 2nd place.

Deer are overrunning my area. With farming in extreme decline old fields become woodlots providing shelter, there's plenty of edge for food. Hunting is also declining, today's callow youth would rather shoot people in video games. It's down right dangerous to drive in my neighborhood at night without keeping deer in mind. Had 5 fawns born on my little 10A property this year, one a piebald. Don't hunt them myself, I'm saving them for later :evilgrin:. Hunters I know provide me with as much venison as I can stand.