I just had a mini-explosion over in GD....

I popped over there and was reading some thread about smoking bans, etc. And I ran into a response that I am just sick and tired of: smoking is harmful to others, but drinking is not.

Now, I don't disagree that smoking can certainly be harmful to others, so that wasn't why I exploded. I am just sick of the argument that drinking does no harm to anyone but the drinker. As the daughter of an alcoholic father, I can say unequivocally that that is not true. Try laying awake night after night, hearing your parents' ugly nasty fights. Try trying to drag your mother back home in the middle of the night because she decided to leave because she couldn't handle dad's crap. Try huddling in the back seat of a car at midnight in the parking lot of a bar, with your dad yelling at someone in another car to "go ahead and hit us!" Try handling the fear of being stuck in a car with a drunk driver when you are too young to really fight against getting in that car. Try loosing 6 friends at one time because they were too stupid to stay out of a car when they had been drinking, and they drove off a bridge into a river and drowned. Try dealing with the constant fear, the stomach aches, the headache,, the difficulty focusing on things because you are worried about what might happen next.

And try losing your cousin because the idiot who was driving the car she was in decided to play "beat the train" and lost. Try telling a friend of mine who lost his only child when the driver of the car she was in, and who had been drinking, plowed into a concrete support of an overpass.

Well, I hope you get the idea. To all of you who cannot be or choose not to be around cigarette smoking, I have no argument with you at all. I just wish people would drop the "drinking doesn't harm anyone but themselves" argument to defend their preference.

Okay, I'll calm down now.....:cry:

It's that kind of ignorance that can be be pretty frustrating

And as you could probably tell from my post above, it steams me!

Alcohol and tobacco issues.

The two are completely different, I feel.

Alcohol does not have to be harmful if used in moderation and properly, if it's abuse and used excessively, no good can come of it. Whereas tobacco by its very nature is extremely toxic.

It's a simple thing to understand, and I find it hard believe that any thinking person would not be able to discriminate between the two.

opening their mouths or putting fingers to keyboard, huh?

How my heart is hurting for you......

You have gotten it EXACTLY RIGHT......

And you have sure lived through some awful things, haven't you?

C'mere, my dear.....here's some hugs just for you.....


:grouphug: :hug: :grouphug: :hug: :grouphug: :hug: :grouphug: :hug: :grouphug:

If I told the whole story, it would be a book!

But with a lot of work with helpful people, I have come a long way from where I was. I used to feel so worthless that if someone walked down the sidewalk toward me, I would do anything to try and avoid any kind of encounter! Fortunately, I have a hell of a lot more confidence in myself now, and i was able to resolve some important things with my dad before he died, something for which I will always feel grateful!

And I will take all the hugs you wanna give me!

:loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug:

:grouphug: :loveya: :grouphug: :loveya: :grouphug:

I grew up around alcoholics so I can understand where you're coming from. Drinkers affect lives of everyone around them.

:hug:

I know there are a lot of people out there who DO understand that!

:hug:

I met the father of a friend of mine in a local store today, and he was telling me about his 31-year-old nephew being killed in a car wreck a couple days ago. Left behind a wife and 14-year-old daughter. It seems the driver was going about 90 to 95 miles per hour on curvy roads, and his intoxication was 3 times the legal limit. The nephew was a passenger. The driver survived.

I believe that what we do does affect others, one way or another.

I'm sorry for what you had to go through in your childhood.

and so damned infuriating! I am so sorry for your friend's family!

Everyone is hurt. Thank you for caring about us.

I forgot to give you a hug ... :hug:

:hug:

Seattle Girl I wish you peace, nothing more nothing less. Perfect peace. :hug: If you need me please pm.

You're so sweet....:hug:

Smoking, by it's nature, unless the smoker is in the room by itself, automatically affects everyone in the room.

Drinking affects no one except the drinker.

What you have labeled "drinking", I would prefer to relabel as "alcoholism" and/or "drunkeness".

Drinking per se hurts no one; it's the dumbass behavior that comes with drunkenness and alcoholism.

I, too, had an alcoholic father, and I can identify with what you say, though thankfully we never had to cower in a car or try to escape - thankfully my dad, when he was drunk, most just come home and passed out.

But the arguments the next day - awful shit.

And I do remember when dad's alcoholism hit its highest point, when I was in high school, that I *did* lie awake at night, wondering "Is this the night that dad doesn't pass out and decides to just kill us?"

Alcoholism - and all drug addiction - is goddamned nasty.

more immediate effects on others who are around it -- particularly people with asthma, allergies, or who are literally sickened by the smell.

And I did use both the term "alcoholic" and "drinking". Alcoholism has as much of a negative and long-term effect on others as does smoking, but even an social drinker can overdo it, go out, get behind the wheel and kill themselves and/or others.

Just sayin'....

and/or being a dumbass, but the problem is not the drinking per se.

A person drinking an alcoholic beverage afflicts no harm at all on anyone else - it's the BEHAVIOR of the person who is drinking who has an effect.

Unlike smoking, in which the ACT of smoking itself affects other people.

This may seem like nitpicking, but I think the distinction is very important - you very condemned the act of drinking itself as something that is ipso facto as dangerous as second-hand smoke, which is patently and demonstrably false.

act of drinking at all. Not at all. I think you are missing my point, which is that the argument that drinking (whether by a social drinker or an alcoholic) is NOT harmful to others is not a solid argument.

The fact that smoking is a behavior is irrelevant - the fact is, when someone smokes, smoke goes all over the room and enters everyone's lungs.

There is NO way around that fact, unless one has an utterly superbitchin' filter better than anything that anyone has ever invented to date.

Smoking simply CANNOT - CANNOT in any way, shape, or form - not be harmful to other people who are in the area. Smoking AUTOMATICALLY affects everyone in the area of the smoker.

So we don't even need to get anywhere near close to looking at the issue of smoking as a behavior. It's utterly irrelevant, because the argument is already settled that smoking is harmful to others.



But drinking IS NOT harmful to others. The only thing that is harmful is the ABUSE of drinking, and the POTENTIAL bad decisions that are made because of drinking. But drinking ITSELF is a morally and ethically neutral activity.

Like I said in my previous post, this is, in some ways, a quibbling over the use of words, but, in my opinion, it is an INCREDIBLY important distinction to make, logically AND socially.

disagree about this. I do respect your opinion, and certainly respect the fact that you obviously don't want to be anywhere around cigarette smoke.

But I also respect my opinion, and have not yet seen any reason to change it.

But I don't don't think we (meaning DUers) have to agree on everything; I think the most important thing is we respect each other, especially when there are differences of opinion.

:thumbsup:

that drinking - the mere act of tipping of a beer or a glass of wine - is ipso facto harmful to other people.

It's an illogical move on your part to make that claim, and it's patently and demonstrably false.

And I don't know where you pulled out the idea that I don't want to be anywhere near cigarette smoke - I never said that. It is another false assumption.

seems like just different perspectives.

Drinking adversely affects others, but not in a way similar to how smoking does.

If someone drinks, it doesn't affect other people in the room with him while he is drinking (unless he is a loud or violent drunk, or just an asshole). But, as you said, smoking automatically affects others.


Maybe the key to your disagreement isn't that these things affect others, but that smoking affects the environment around the smoker. The physical envorionment.

Of course, it could be argued that someone might get drunk and burn the restraunt down, but that's different....

I too am the child of an alcoholic. I am also a smoker. full disclosure.

There have been serious studies done that show that second hand smoke is dangerous to non-smokers. It doesn't matter if there is one person smoking 20 cigarettes, or 20 people each smoking one, the smoke is dangerous, if the studies are to be believed. So smoking, even when it is not to excess, is dangerous to other people.

Drinking is not inherently dangerous to other people. the abuse of alcohol, and the stupid decisions that result from alcohol abuse, is dangerous to other people. But there are millions of people who drink without abusing it, the two beers I had last night watching Monday Night Football were not dangerous to anyone but myself (I walk home anyway, even though I was not intoxicated) Had I made poor decisions, like driving, or having ten beers instead of two and then driving, or getting into a fight, then that's a problem for other people.

The very act of smoking is dangerous to others (according to research) the danger from alcohol is a secondary one, it is in the behaviour changes it causes in people, including those who use to excess or become addicted. None of the tragedies you cited in your post are the fault of alcohol, they are all the fault of the person drinking the alcohol. I think it's an important distinction to make.

What I was saying was that I am tired of hearing the "I hate smokers" people use the argument that drinking never causes harm, which is what the poster in GD was saying.

Having a couple of drinks, staying away from trying to drive, and not transforming into an obnoxious person (even if you only occasionally drink) is, of course, not harmful to others.

The underlying problem is WHY people drink. I do believe drinking should be treated like any other drug; as something that only those of sound "mind" should indulge in. I cannot say that I think it should be illegal, because I am for legalizing almost all drugs. However, I do think our society does not take it seriously as the dangerous adulterant that it is, and it should not be so socially "acceptable" to drink to excess. People are not responsible with it at all, and that is such an issue we are not dealing with.
Having worked in the bar scene most of my life, I have seen these things also, although thankfully not on a personal (family) level. Bar owners/tenders/servers share a bit of the responsibility to try and help those patrons who are too drunk to be driving. Who could look at themselves in a mirror knowing that they had let someone drive who they knew to be past the point of ridiculousness?(not advocating lawsuits, just personal responsibility)
I'm not sure what the solution is, but I agree it is quite the problem.I just wish we could get to the ROOT of the problem...WHY many feel the need to dull the pain (what pain..why?)with alcohol and drugs.

There is definitely a difference between someone who has a few drinks while enjoying a game on the teevee, or whatever, and someone who drinks (or drugs) either so they can FEEL something, or so they STOP feeling something.

I think the reason people make that comparison is that the events, drinking and smoking, occur under very similar circumstances, usually, and a bar is a good place to locate a hypothetical situation about why smoking in closed public spaces should be outlawed.

The point of that argument is: if you are sitting in a bar, and a guy walks up next to you and orders a beer and starts drinking, that doesn't affect you. Unless he has several and starts puking on you or beating you up or drives away drunk. But the actual act of drinking isn't hurting you. If another person walks up on the other side of you, orders a beer, and starts puffing on a cigarette, well, that does hurt you - immediately, with no other factors involved. Ergo, smoking in public is necessarily worse than drinking in public in that it ALWAYS results in suffering on the parts of others sharing that space, while drinking does not.

IMHO, we need to have a serious public debate about drinking and alcoholism and helping survivors or alcoholic parents, spouses, drivers... but I think the drinking/smoking comparison is a valid one for the anti-public-smoking crowd to make.

Anyway, I guess you agree with me, since you said that your beef was with people who try to claim that drinking doesn't affect anyone else... but in the narrow terms of this hypothetical argument, it doesn't.

(not ALL) people who make the "drinking doesn't harm anyone" argument are people who think it is okay to equate the habit with the person, i.e., smokers are sub-human; the habit is nasty so the person is nasty, etc.

I ended up working with alcoholics and their families for a number of years in treatment centers, and heard some stories that made MY childhood seem like a walk in the park. But I did not, and do not, look at them as less-than-human, or unworthy, or whatever. They are people with problems who deserve help, not being put down.

Same goes for anyone with a problem. I'm not saying someone should just hang around and be abused by exposure to cigarette smoke, or by an obnoxious drunk, or whatever. Heck, if a behavior bothers you, can't say blame anyone (including myself) for trying to get away from it. But if someone with a problem, whether it's smoking, drinking, drugging, etc. asks for help, don't smack 'em down, help 'em up!

I am trying to get my mom to quit smoking right now. She already has emphysema. :(

There are times I'm honestly amazed at how self-destructive so many habits we humans have...and that people enjoy on a regular basis.

My grandparents (on my mother's side) were both alcoholics, and I see a few of my friends (and my brother) starting to head down the same path. It's frightening to see.

(I don't think I've ever used the "drinking doesn't harm anyone but themselves" argument. Becuase it's soooo not true.)

:hug:

:hug:

If you peeked at my post, you'd find out that my dad has cancer from smoking, a habit he so desperately tried to quit several times. So I'm a little "touchy" about the subject.
He had chemo last thursday, but who knows if it's going to be effective. He still might have to have his entire voicebox removed.

The self-destructive habits many humans engage in disturbs me...

as I decided I'd better leave the thread after the one poster's words touched off my anger.

I'm sorry to hear about your dad...:hug:

I was told that some people know smoking is bad and they don't care. I feel bad about discussing it here (feel like I'm going behind someone's back), but if I go back in there, I'll probably get post a few posts, get those posts deleted, and then get banned. Best to leave it alone.
As I said, it's a very touchy subject to me.
And hopefully, my Dad will pull through this chemo (it's a research study that's been extremely successful with the type and size of cancerous tumor that he has.) If not, then they gotta cut out the voicebox.
Ugh. :scared:

no one has the right to insult another poster. We can disagree and disagree strongly but to cheap shot another person is just a wrong thing too do. Hang tough SG :hug:

Thanks! I don't mind a good discussion on issues, but I don't indulge in hitting below the belt. Definitely not a cool thing to do!

:hug:

always remember what Khashka said:
Stay the FUCK out of GD...
:hug:

I'm a tough woman, and can usually hold my own, so I go to GD often, because there are a lot of good posts there, and I get a lot of good info on current events there. And I usually DON'T react to things over there...if I see that a thread is turning into a free-for-all, I just go to another one. Grew up with entirely too much anger in my life to want to deliberately stand it front of it and let it run me over!

But, I am also an opinionated woman, and when moved to do so, I'll express that opinion.....

Thank you, wildhorses! :hug:

on the dangers of drunk driving. That's an awful lot of lives affected by alcohol.

when I drove from a nightclub I was at over to my mother's house. It wasn't far away, but I had had so much to drink that I was seeing triple, not double (you'd think I'd never have done that in the first place after my childhood experiences, but hey, I was 24 and stupid).

Well, thank the Maker I got to my mom's without harming myself or another, but when I woke up the next day, I was so horrified at what I had done that I've NEVER done it again.

I did the same thing one night and it was about a 60 mile round trip. Never again.

I'm glad you made it back in one piece too! :hug:

Sometimes it's amazing we made it though our youth.
I'm glad you made it through all you talked about. :hug:

more and more lately...

I think the exchange of ideas and opinions is vital for our democracy to flourish....

But sometimes, people just don't get it... They take, what I see as, childish opinions, and, when backed into a corner by someone who challenges what they say, lash out at the person questioning...

And then things inevitable turn ugly...

Sorry you had to go through that SG...

Being a recovering Alcoholic, I know what destruction and devastation can occur from abuse... I also grew up in a household that saw celebration and inebriation as two sides to the same coin...

alcohol does harm those around it... Even if it is just a few friendly drinks... The example made that equates fun with having a few to unwind, relax or just let go, perpetuates the possibility of abuse...

Having said that, drinking in moderation is fine by me... It's just that one never knows when moderation can lead to inebriation and thus becomes someone else's potential problem...

freeze in a tape of an interview with Senator Levin, who is a Democrat. It was on the replay of Hardball, which I also happened to see. It was amazing how so many people just automatically assumed it was "censored", that is, that MSNBC had cut out a part of that interview. I said several times that I thought it was just a glitch, not some evil plot by the network, because I SAW it. I was looking at the TV screen the whole time the frozen picture was on, and I did not see or sense anything resembling censorship. To me, it looked like a videotape that you pause while you run to the kitchen, then restart when you get back. But there were so many people who either ignored what I was saying, or just told me I was wrong.

I know there ARE a lot of shenigans going on in the media and in politics, but folks, sometimes a glitch is just a glitch, and not a "Vast Right Wing Conspiracy"! :evilgrin:

Sometimes I think GD should be renamed the Art Bell memorial patter repository...

And then other times, I actually learn something...

Damn this free speech thing can be maddening...

been there and still dealing with it-again. i have had about two drinks in the last three years-why? because i can`t bring myself to drink when i have dealt and still deal with alcoholics who are very close to me. i no longer cry, i just shake my head and walk away.

walk away. I always remember this sage advice: "Never try to argue with a drunk."

I hope you are also doing more than just walking away, though. I hope you are finding ways to help heal and grow. It can be a painful process, but it is SO worth it, and YOU are so worth it too!

:hug:

substance abuse of any kind hurts others emotionaly but you can't get drunk by sitting next to somone who is drinking. you can be affected by second hand smoke. so the drinker in this example doesn't harm you physicaly (unless he beats you up or something because he's drunk, or runs you over while driving. Assuming the drunk is non violent and isn't driving a car they will pose no danger to you. but a smoker only has to sit next to you to harm you with second hand smoke.

I don't think they were saying that alcahalism doesn't effect others I think that they were saying that second hand smoke physicaly harms those around it and drinking doesn't have the same effect, physicaly because of the way it is ingested.

There are obviously a lot of people who need to hear it.

Those situations sound down-right frighful. I'm so sorry you had to live through them.

On the other hand, it has taught you much, and now you're educating us. So THANK YOU!

:hug:

>As the daughter of an alcoholic father, I can say unequivocally that that is not true.<

Me, too. You are not alone.

SeattleGirl, I could never, ever tell you how sorry I am about this, and about the multiple losses due to alcohol.

:hug: :hug: :loveya:

Julie