What the hell? Progressives saying the mentally ill should be locked up

just like every other criminal?

What the fuck?

Am I still at DU?

:banghead:

:wtf:

Maybe I'm just really cynical.

had an overabundance of "smarties." Now? Not so much.

I gotta agree.




:hide:

:cry:

:P

i think if a person is a danger to self or others, yes, they should be locked up

the case of yates is difficult, she was receiving psychiatric care for a long time & apparently her illness was resistant to treatment, however, her medications had been changed just 2 weeks prior to the murders

my feeling is that when you are dealing w. medications where one of the possible side effects is suicide or murder, it is the responsibility of the medical community to monitor the patient in a hospital for a few days or a few weeks to be sure that the patient won't have such a reaction

such a precaution would have saved yates' children

the insurance companies won't go for it, tho -- too expensive, they don't like to pay for in-hospital treatment of mental illness at all, far as i can tell

i don't believe she is guilty of murder & therefore i support a new trial

maybe not a progressive viewpoint but i hope a fair one

i don't think she is a danger to the community now

progressives have a very kind heart toward children, since children were killed, it causes a lot of emotion, doesn't mean that we are not all on the same team, just means it's a very difficult case

If the mentally ill defense doesn't work for her, when the hell WOULD it work?

of the mentally ill defense at this period in time, not because I think that the mentally ill shouldn't get treatment, but because we don't have the infrastructure to actually do it well. And yes, people who are mentally ill need treatment, not prison, but I don't really think that anyone who killed multiple people should ever be released. We need better state-run hospitals for people with mental illness, and a recognition that, for many people, these are chronic illnesses, that can never actualle be 'cured' only dealt with. Upon being able to function more normally, mentally ill criminals need to make some sort of penance for their crimes.

can you find me a serial killer, for instance, who isn't mentally ill, at some level? Isn't the compulsion to kill, or even abuse someone, a mental illness? There is a very fine line between mental deviancy (like pedophilia) and mental illness. Why let someone who has killed others free simply because an illness has been diagnosed and recognized, while the same people argue others (like child molesters) stay in prison for ever?

how can anyone reconcile the two?

She is clearly not going to go on a seven state killing spree. You cannot say the same for your typical serial killer.

I am amazed-how many of you think Rasty Yates should be locked up in prison because he should have known the danger she presented. At the same time, apparently, many think she is not a danger to society. Great-if she is released and kills again (after all, WTF knows what the devil is going to tell her next time) should those of you who think she is not a danger to society be locked up in prison?

known how dangerous she was. But now she is not a danger to society? What, devil has stopped talking to her now? And you would know that how?

She was not having thoughts of killing anyone at all except her children. That's it. She is NOT a serial killer.

And no, of course I'm not blaming her husband.

She was not having thoughts of killing anyone except her kids? Actually, it was the devil who told her to kill her kids. Do you know what the devil is going to tell her next time? Well, do you?

Do you have any fucking idea what post partum is? It does NOT turn someone into a blood thirsty sociopath! While a mom killing her kids while suffering from post partum isn't exactly a new idea, it would be pretty damn new if she started killing other people.

Drs. aren't sure what else she has, but it's not just PPD.
As for her killing other people, she had told her Dr. Devil told her to grab a knife and stab someone... Someone, not her kids. Get it?
You have no clue what the Devil is going to tell her next, but to stupidly declare she is not a danger to anyone-well, that is as dumb as it gets.

no big whoop...:shrug: </sarcasm>

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me, the ass? proudly by your definition. :kick:

I am radical in my beliefs regarding violent crimes against persons. As I do not want to be flamed or called stupid or (gasp) a freeper, I will keep my belief to myself.

I am a card-carrying liberal and I will resent anyone who questions that based on my take of the Yates case.

After all, they are unlikely to be able to kill hundreds of thousands.

which are all dead.

Of course, I'm not her psychiatrist. Maybe she's having other fantasies about murder, but that isn't for me to decide.

On the other hand, it could be argued that serial killers are mentally ill. They should never be released, IMO.

Weird.

about murder for years. In 1994, she told her Dr. that Satan wanted her to get a knife and stub someone-notice she said "someone", not her child.
Still think she is not dangerous? HTF can any of you know what Satan will tell her to do next?

so nuts? yeah. needs treatment yeah. ever see the light of day? no.

I see it more your way.

was Yates the right-wing fundie Texas freak who drowned her babies or the right-wing fundie Texas freak who bashed her childrens' skulls in with a rock?

P.S. Both beat the murder rap, since Jesus told them to do it.

"God told me to attack Afghanistan, and I did." -Dear Leader

:wtf:

if not and treatment would help them - no.


many of our homeless are due to the mental hospitals being shut down in the Reagan era. If you're talking about this type stuff then I'd have to say there is a need for hospitalization of people who are too mentally ill to take care of themselves or are a danger to themselves or society.


I guess I need to know exactly what you're talking about.

so many homeless need to be in group homes, rehab, etc. but we are so "politically correct" now that we look for least restrictive environment in all things, which sadly plays right into conversative hands, as in CHEAP.

:sarcasm:

that this happened here.

With everything you said there.

I'm curious as to what you're referring to.

Just like Newt Gingrich advocates taking kids from poor women, in favor of "loving orphanages."


I have conflicting feelings about this issue. On the one hand, there are situations in which society just does not have the tools to treat extreme sickness. (No cure for Bundy, Gacy, Dahmer). In those case, there is no option. I value the lives of people more than the 'freedom' to be killed by maniacs - no matter how unfortunate their personal stories.

On the other hand, if treatment is possible, then it is to everyone's benefit to have mental health facilities that are in-patient and that work. For instance, treating substance abuse and providing job training would - in my opinion - eliminate recidivism in many cases.

I doubt that there is treatment available to help Andrea Yates now. Again, on the one hand, I feel compassion for her, because society (and her husband) failed her. (Too many Tom Cruise-like yahoos minimize post-partum depression). On the other, she killed her own children. What kind of treatment would change? I don't know whether she's genuinely mentally ill, but - if she is - she should spend time in a mental health facility and then serve out the rest of her prison term when she's well.

I don't know that she should go free, but I don't think a prison is the right place for her. If she has to be locked up to protect society (?), then a mental hospital would be the most appropriate place to confine her.

If so, allow me to join you in the :wtf:

Color me dumbfounded.

should be forced to take meds yet? They usually start doing that sooner or later. Sometimes, the rush to find a "quick" yet fair-seeming "solution" to these kinds of often highly complex social problems, "solutions" that only seem to make "sense" rhetorically (or in the poster's minds) and rely on the most base, limited, one-dimensional kinds of absolutes makes me think I'm at the fucking FreeRepublic.

Those solutions only come from people with a VERY limited grasp of the big picture.

her prescription was just changed to a combination of two SSRIs that is sometimes in rare cases associated w. a sudden compulsion to commit a violent crime like suicide or murder

she got a bad mix of medicines for her brain

not all mind-altering drugs have the same effect on every person, since our brains are individual, the SSRI that saves your sanity may cause me to become even more seriously depressed

i don't know what one-dimensional thinking you're referring to, but since yates was under a doctor's care, taking her medications, then the failure was our imperfect medical technology which sometimes harms instead of heals

i don't think a person should be in prison for the crime of being given a bad script

i do think when a person w. the severity of her problems has an important change in a prescription involving these drugs, she should be hospitalized at insurer's expense to be sure the drugs are safe for her and her family, a few days or weeks in hospital would have allowed the doctors to catch her severe reaction & change her prescription to something else

i don't blame her husband for not being a doctor, nor do i think he should go to prison for being a creep & a loser, but i'm still entitled to think he's a creep & a loser

prison seems unfair in this circumstance, if insurers weren't so cheap, & we could still hospitalize people who were not already cutting their wrists or hitting their children over the head, this woman's severe depression could have been monitored in hospital & her children would still be alive

MY post is critical of people who believe that the mentally ill should be forced to use medication. Everyone should still have the right to choose what they put in their bodies or not. You can't advocate forcing pills down the throats of the mentally ill without violating a lot of crucial civil liberties.

The one dimensional thinking I was referring to is the one-dimensional thinking idiots on this board use when they see Social Problem X, characterize it in generalized, ignorant, almost symbolic (often literally so) terms, come up with a Brilliant Solution Y, which often, because it only represents their feeble, literal grasp of the issues involved, especially those relevant to actual LAW, (let alone the moral/philosophical concerns) would never work, and if it did work the way these morons think it would, would represent just as much tyranny, destruction, ineffectuality and waste as they feel the problem does right now "without anyone 'addressing' it."

Example: thinking that the "solution" to the "problem" of "Andrea Yates" in this country is encourage, force or coerce anyone with a number of small children and symptoms of PPP to take medication or "be confined to a mental institution." There are about twelve thousand other more mature, intelligent, productive ways to approach evaluating the many, many social issues and their troubling ramifications in that case before treating it the way someone at FR.com would, and just pretending those people are single-dimenstion walking stereotypes to be moved around a "do-it-yourself" public policy design board like pieces of a magnetic poetry kit until the "designers" have a collection of concepts that looks to them like a "solution."

But, if they display the heinous actions of the Yates woman, then they should be confined to a mental hospital. Unfortunately, she wouldn't get much help there, considering the quality of care there. It would more be to confine her to protect society. In prison, she would most likely be killed by the other prisoners eventually.

been killed, and is not going to be killed. She is being treated by Drs, in a mental ward of the prison, she is not locked up in the cell. She has her own garden, for crying out loud. Even her defense lawyer admits she is treated very well there. I have no clue why her lawyer is pursuing the new trial, which will put a lot of pressure on this woman, except that is what the lawyers do. So, now, she has to be dragged into court and listen to the evidence of how she murdered her kids all over again?

I've been in a state hospital. And I will not divulge my diagosis, so don't ask.

There was this huge woman, Joy. She tied up the phone line hour after hour. She called her relatives collect. They would not accept her calls. The long distance people caught on to her eventually and stopped putting her calls through. No, Joy, no can do.

When we went out on smoke breaks she would refuse to come back into the building. The guys with the tranx came in time after time to knock her down. She would just pass out immediately upon being given the shot. I was there by mistake, obviously..... It's true.

So, she went before the judge and he LET HER GO! She was the most mentally ill patient in sight, and oh, they let her go home.

Very imperfect system. Mental hospitals are still in the dark ages. They don't do shit. If only they would.

There was this other chick who had a stuffed kitty she talked to all the time. The doctor came out one day and said, I have a judge's order to put you on meds so you can think more clearly. This chick stomped her feet and said, "I want to see the papers". I have no doubt they put her on whatever meds. Did it help? I have no idea. I know they took that stuffed kitty and washed it... it was fitlthy.. but I'm sure she was forced to take meds. Did she need them? I have no idea. I got the hell outa there.

i think i was trying to respond to too many posts at once, and not just to your posts, and this created confusion

in the specific case of yates, i think much harm could have been prevented by some sort of procedure to hospitalize her while changing her medication, but insurers don't like that for money reasons, most patients don't like that because of the stigma of being hospitalized even briefly, and most people won't have her bad reaction so why spend the money and time seems to be society's attitude

i certainly don't support prolonged incarceration of people in mental institutions as used to be common in the 50s and earlier, etc

i do think we need to acknowledge the reality that some proportion of people are harmed, not helped, by these medications, and we need to have a screening process to protect people & their families

If she was confined and hadn't murdered her children? She had apparently been telling her doctors for years of murder fantasies. So what would have made this time any different?
I take anti-depressants and have been through difficult med changes, but I didn't go and kill anyone. Did I get any help from the state? NO
Maybe if I went out and killed someone, I could get my meds covered by insurance, ya think so?

but I don't have any children to murder, so nevermind. I wouldn't qualify then.

but i'm guessing if her acting out was indeed caused by the change of medication, she would have tried to harm herself or the staff in the hospital and this would have alerted them

everyone has fantasies, so i don't know what to tell you there, all society has murder fantasies, the highest rated teevee shows are gruesome things like CSI-"city of the week"


Maybe if I went out and killed someone, I could get my meds covered by insurance, ya think so?

i seriously doubt it, i was threatened by a bipolar individual in a manic cycle, his meds have never been covered by insurance and he's had quite a few scuffles w. the law over the yrs including accusations of child molesting

of course most delusional people i know would never dream of going out and hurting anyone, except themselves if they were extremely depressed, but being a nice person doesn't seem to have helped them as far as getting insurance coverage either

one lady i know (schizophrenic) had to apply for and get fired from over 100 jobs to prove that she couldn't work before she was finally granted disability

there is something wrong w. our whole way of treating sick people & it's way bigger than yates

Ask yourself what is the probability that on any given day you will read something you consider "dumb" and "unprogressive."

That thread totally exhausted and enraged me... I need a Guinness I think. Or maybe three.

Belgian monks make better ale.

to call it "mental health", not "mental illness". Health has degrees, granted. But please, when does it cross the line into "illness"? Let's define that, then we have a debate. Not until. Given current human experience, we have a WIDE berth.

and much of what is known of the homeless comes from surveys, which often show mild depression as "mental illness" and 3-5 drinks a day as "substance abuse." The most visible homeless are the crazy ones, but the focus on mental illness in treatment has done no service to the sane majority.

I've met at the bus stop are more sane than the governor.. well that's not saying much .. BUT .. Mental Health should be the order of the day. Hard to come by with a dim-dumb-watt in the whitehouse, eh?

Yeah, it's a topsy turvy world. Might as well get used to it.

I recently read a LTTE in my local paper that said "If we send all the people that disagree with the Bush administrations policies to secret prisons maybe Bushes poll #'s will go back up"

I was so outraged. Not only did someone say that, but our paper printed it. So very sad.

he might score 2% with that plan. And Johnny Walker git yer gun.

See? Mental health. Very hard to define.

That really takes the yellow cake for convoluted logic.

And was she found guilty by reason of insanity? If she remains psychotic or delusional she could easily be a threat to anyone. I don't know her state of mind. If she remains mentally ill, throwing her in prison would be a crime in itself.

The reason she's receiving a new trial is, the prosecution's star expert witness, celebrity forensic psychologist, Dr. Park Dietz, lied during his testimony about her having planned the murders before hand. He claimed that she told him that she had seen an episode of Law and Order where a woman drowns her children and then uses post-partum psychosis as her defense during the trial. Turns out, there was no such episode. Obviously, Dietz should have known that, he is a consultant for Law and Order.

I wonder what her mental state is diagnosed as currently? I don't imagine she's till deemed psychotic, is she? Wish I knew more about her case. Considering what Dietz said at her trial (wtf is wrong with him???) she's certainly due a new trial.

She is being treated and is better, but still falls into periods of dark depression where she is placed on suicide watch. Unfortunately, I have no way of knowing if that is still the case, that information came from an article I read when they were making the case for her retrial.

And, on her meds she is very, very aware of what she did, and has great remorse and self-loathing.

Sometimes the hardest thing to do is to forgive yourself.

drowned them one after another...

for lying under oath?

I'm a depressive. As such this is a mental illness. I'm OK when I am on my medication, but when not on my medication I become useless to society and stay in bed all day.

Should I therefore be locked up?

Mark.

Absolutely not. Depression isn't a crime. (even in shrub's America)

I'm sorry for wandering so far from the op, but I have to say:
The sad truth is that a large percentage of incarcerated people suffer from some form of mental illness. Punishing people for crimes is one thing, but withholding treatment from people who need it is just wrong.

That way those who need mental health treatment can get it.

aka "a qualified mental health professional". I work at a psychiatric hospital and that title scares me because mis-diagnosis is not uncommon. The DSM IV is used as a guideline for diagnosis but it's hardly a science. I also have a lot of concerns for the way medications are prescribed because it's so easy to get it wrong.

Add to all that the fact that psychiatrists have to factor in liability - prescribe the wrong medication, or too much or too little of the right ones, and your license can be suspended or revoked. This consideration, while understandable, can really get in the way of effective treatment.

liable in this case? Was he an accessory?

but if hasn't come up as an issue yet it seems unlikely that it will.

I suppose Rusty could have sued him in civil court, but I am not sure if he did.

If it's the person I think you're talking about I'm not sure s/he's a progressive. It's a newbie who may be a real DUer, or may be a troll.

Mental illness can cause people to completely lose control of their actions to a small, or a great, extent. This is not to say I excuse the actions of anyone (such as Andrea Yates) who commits various acts. However "locking people up" like criminals is not the way to go about serving justice to the victims or the afflicted individuals. Getting the afflicted individual treatment, first and foremost, is important. Worrying about what they did can come later.



edited for clarity

That seems a little out of order. Kids are dead. We'll "worry about that later"? How much later?

Your post gives me the creeps. WORRY LATER? KILLING.. oh well, we'll worry about that later! WHAT?

AFFLICTED INDIVIDUAL? What if you're DEAD? We'll worry LATER? WTF?

When the person has been treated for their illness.

If the person is not able to be held responsible for their actions at the time of the crime, it will do no good to castigate them then. Treat the illness, then determine what can be done, if anything, about holding the person responsible for their actions.

I'm not saying that every person who has a mental illness is unable to be held responsible for the crimes they commit. However, locking up a person for life for a crime they committed under the influence of a mind-altering illness is irresponsible and cruel--particularly if they were denied appropriate treatment by others.

Whether incarceration or mandatory mental treatment, killing children needs redress. Yes? One cannot just go on a killing spree and say, oops, I'm mentally "ill" and go lark free. Can they? Some kind of supervision needs to be in place.

What kind of "treatment" is there for people who kill their children? Major, I would assume.

Again, your arguments give me the creeps.

Yes, she should do the time. Bless her heart and all that but don't kill children. Okay? Get it?

No, I did not.

What I did say is that people should not be arbitrarily locked away for life for having a mental illness, even if they committed a crime under the influence of that illness. This notion of "lock them up and throw away the key--who cares if they are mentally ill" is cruel and unusual punishment.

And THAT'S WHY people with mental health problems in this country need advocates. To redress the horrible, cruel ignorance that pervades this place.

When in a psychotic state, that poor woman did NOT know what she was doing.

Have you seen all those pictures of her with her children? It was obvious that she *adored* them.

Two days before they died, her FUCKING IDIOT psychiatrist sent her home unstable, even though she and Rusty were there begging him to help them.

But, she was just a mentally ill mom, so what, big deal.

And, you would punish HER? She did her part. She did her best to get help with her condition. And now she has to live with what she did to the children she worshiped FOR THE REST OF HER LIFE?

That's not punishment enough? Jesus, fry her medical team. THEY, AT ALL TIMES, WERE NOT PSYCHOTIC AND WERE CAPABLE OF HELPING HER.

Don't worry. A large per centage of the mentally ill ARE locked up. Especially if they are colorful or women or gay.

Now, I will go pour a drink and try to stop hyperventilating.

I understand none of this will make sense to you until someone you love has severe problems. Then, the world will crack open. I hope you and yours have a better network and much better medical help than Andrea did.

I felt like I was banging my head against a wall here :banghead: trying to get my point across. It is obvious that some people know little or nothing of mental illness, which is why so many of the Nation's mentally ill are receiving such inadequate or inappropriate care.

It takes a bi polar sufferer an average of EIGHT YEARS to get the proper meds they need. THAT'S THE AVERAGE!

WHY AM I SHOUTING?

:hi:

I understand it well. People with mental illness face so much of it, along with stigma, abuse, neglect and more.

one minute of appropriate care or therapy in 18 months. And I was very actively engaged there as was he. L.A. county is the biggest provider of mental health services IN THE WORLD.

The math isn't all that hard. And we spoke English and had college under our belts. I can only imagine what all those other folks at that clinic go thru.

When he would decompensate, they did nothing for him. At one point, they tried to blame the marriage. lol

He's been stable and productive for over five years now because I fired their @sses and scoured the city for a real doctor who actually knew what he was doing. And unfortunately for Los Angeles County and for CA, I kept a journal and wrote a book.

:evilgrin:

I work in the system so I know how things are. I'd like to say things are great (and we do try to provide good services) but there are lots of ways the system can break down. Funding cuts happen all of the time, staff aren't always up to snuff, policies don't always get followed, etc. It can be a messed up world for someone to end up in.

Fry the first doctor, who recommended to the couple that they *not* have any more children, in order to prevent future attacks? The doctor who she and her husband subsequently *ignored*?

So then the couple shopped around for another doctor, and then she neglected to mention to the second doctor, or even to her husband, that she heard voices, and had homicidal ideations?

If she had gone back to the first doctor, she likely could have gotten another brief course of Haldol. She did not.

If she and her husband and listened to her first doctors' advice, and not had anymore children, she might not have been set off again. She did not.

If she was upfront with her husband and the second doctor about the severity of her illness, and the effectiveness of Haldol for the illness, the doctor might have overlooked his very legitimate concerns about side effects. She was not.

It's not as simple as her being failed by the system. As is often the sad case of mental illness, recurrence of the illness is often brought on by the patient themselves (refusing meds, not following doctors' advice, abusing other substances, etc.).

Time has a good workup on the whole tragedy:
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,218445-1,00.html

TWO DAYS before the children died AND SENT HER HOME.

If he had her on anti psychotics, he was not innocent of the knowledge of her psychosis.

Please. I've worked in mental health advocacy for a decade. YES, IT USUALLY IS THE MEDICAL "TEAM" who screws up the situation, not the suffereR. And YES, it is the victim who gets blamed.

I haven't seen any documents indicating the second doctor knew the *severity* of her condition. He did *not* have her on Haldol at the time, because Haldol can indice suicidal and homicidal thoughts. He was likely tryng to avoid making her becoming a danger to self or others. He did not know that she already was.

And yes, those who descend into psychosis are often blamed. Especially when they self-induce that state. After warnings, meds, etc.

Would you argue that people who are stabilized by drugs should face no responsibility when a stabilized mind decides to reject those drugs?

It's an ethically messy minefield, either way. He gives her Haldol, she kills 5 children, it's his fault. He doesn't give her Haldol, she kills five children, it's his fault?

I really don't know what to say, other than making sure that people who kill shouldn't be around other people. It's not her fault that she has a brain that doesn't work well in current society.

Should she be in prison? I think she should be isolated from those she might kill. Sadly, in her case, she might kill anyone.

But, there is an article that I reprinted in my book. Let's see if I can dig it out.

In general, it's not enough to put people on anti psychotic medication. You have to MONITOR them, and the period of stabilization can be lengthy. And the whole process repeats. It is actually endless. And that fact has to be respected.


No one did that for this woman. In particular, her doctor did not do that and I hope Rusty pursues a case against him. Likely, he won't because it would be unbearably painful.

I worked on Laura's Law here in California -- the law that allows the state to intervene in a narrow way when people feel so good that they go off of their medication. So did my husband. :)

You say "people who kill". And I understand the worry. It is a real one. But locking up sick people after they have killed someone is a supremely inefficient way to manage psychosis, let alone keep anyone safe in reality.

On edit: Okay, I found the ref. I didn't reprint an article but made reference to an interview Rusty did on "60 Minutes", aired 9 Dec 2001. I don't know if that helps. But her doctor did withdraw her neuroleptics and sent her home two days before the babies died as per Yates in that interview.

/typin'

shrinks not because it's painful for him, but because shrinks had warned him she shouldn't have more kids. But did good old Rusty listen to them? No, he continued to impregnate her until she killed all of the kids. Frankly, Rusty disgust me.

"Though Andrea's condition seemed to be worsening two days before the drownings, when her husband drove her to Saeed's office, Rusty testified, the doctor refused to try Haldol longer or return her to the hospital. Rusty was frustrated, he told the jury, and he didn't know what else to do."

I've been in this situation literally more times than I can count. And it is as common as corn.

She would be prescribed medications, but would stop taking them.

should have had a plan to deal with it. It's just part of the illness.

www.psychlaws.org is one of the orgs working on this problem through legislation, nationwide.

But why am I surprised? I;'ve discovered apparently many "Progressive" DUers either don't know what psychosis is, or don't give a damn -- just burn the bitch!

There are some literally medieval attitudes towards mental health/illnesses on this board. It is a MEDICAL condition, not some kind of moral/emotional lacking.

Even in liberal San Francisco. I could have had my husband criminalized in a heartbeat.

Getting him care was like pulling teeth with a toothpick.

We've a long, long way to go in the fight to get all citizens decent healthcare, physical AND mental.

I'm sitting here right now with a coupla broken bones in my foot and no insurance. Will get to a doctor but there's the whole drama of who and how to pay for it.

And, sorry to hijack. :hi:

You people have taken liberties assuming my ignorance of "mental health". Here's the ticket. I happen to suffer from a form of mental health that is off the beaten track.

DO NOT assume I know nothing of mental issues. I KNOW IT IS MEDICAL! I spend much of my time trying to educate others that it is a MEDICAL condition and not a 'laziness' issue.

You are preaching to the choir on this one. I KNOW, first hand, up close and personal. I never actually killed children or anyone else. And I still say that is unforgivable. There is a LINE.

DO NOT give me lessons on Mental Health! You don't know to whom you are speaking. So, stop it NOW! Back the fuck off!

assumptions about you.

You may not be able to "forgive" Andrea. That's your problem.

I have no problem understanding that it's not for me to judge this woman but to deal with the dangerous wreck that is the mental health system in this county.

To deal with the Wreck? How are you helping?

Peer counseling, keynoting, working on a second book. Yacking. :)

be held responsible for their actions? If someone is abused as a child, it's not their fault they committed some horrible actions either, is it?
All we are is a product of our genes. We can not be hold responsible for any crimes we commit. No more then we can be hold responsible for having brown eyes.
:sarcasm:

gays shouldn't be allowed to marry because then people will start marrying cans of soup and llamas. :eyes:

funny that all the regulars came out of the wood work, huh? one in particular is my fave for dumbass comments out of right wing field...

anyone who has lived with mental illness knows the reality of it all. My mother has psychotic breaks sometimes, with her MD/BPD, and it ain't pretty. Luckily she has had a tremendous support system her entire adult life that keeps her on her meds and in treatment. (family and psychiatrist in tandem) as an adult myself now, I am part of that team. It's hard, but I wouldn't have it any other way.

:sarcasm:

Just a bit punchy, having gone at it on this thread myself (not to mention having worked in the MH field for years and encountered all the BS people dish out to people with mental health problems).

Your mom is incredibly lucky that she has a solid support system. Many people are not so fortunate, and end up in nasty situations--homeless, imprisoned, institutionalized or worse. I have no doubt that she is receiving the best care you and your family can get for her. :thumbsup:

I can 'hear' her psychosis in so many voices on the street. I don't know if that makes sense, but growing up with her, I am very sensitive to that particular sound, cadence, and speech that seems so pervasive with a psychotic break similar to my mom's. It breaks my heart to know that it could have so easily been my mother- homeless and off meds, alone, if not for her parents and siblings in the beginning, and her current husband of 17 years and me now.

what sucks is that w/me in CA now, if she has another break during her med change (coming after the holidays because of bad side effects from current meds) she most likely will have to be admitted instead of staying home. w/out constant supervision (which her psychiatrist requires if she is on anti-psychotic meds) she can't be at home for her recovery and 'balancing' as we call it. (stepdad got laid off a few years ago and outsourced out of his well paid job, now makes less than he did 10 years ago, can't take time off work either, no vacation earned yet- thanks Bush)

People just don't get how culpable Yate's psychiatrist and her family were. I see it plain as day because I take that responsibility very seriously.

Good luck with the meds change. I hope it goes well for her and for all of you.

:hug:

for her sake more than anyone else's. She's miserable when she's in psychosis (the moments of lucidity are heartbreaking)

:hug:

about psychosis is that it can be very subtle but you can teach yourself to not only notice it but you can predict it much of the time. It doesn't look like anyone bothered to do that for her.

In addition, Andrea did not have "fantasies" about killing, not in the sense that you sit down and voluntarily think about a topic. She had instrusive paranoid psychotic ideation. That's not any where in the realm of "fantasy".

In addition, we have the technology to help Andrea. Her doctor needed to find the medication that she responded to best and MONITOR her. If it took a short hospital stay, so be it. But medicine is run by insurance companies and Big Pharma in this country. So, chances are, if you need a short hospital stay to ensure your safety and the safety of those around you, you aren't going to get it.

I had to hound doctors for FIVE YEARS before they would even prescribe anti psychotic meds for my hubby. And I nearly got killed on several occasions because he had episodes one or twice a week that lasted for days. And when they finally did, they didn't monitor him properly. It took another three years for him to get stable and there we were at risk for another three years. If I hadn't lived through it, I wouldn't believe it.

No one took Andrea or her condition seriously enough. Not her family and not her doctors. The children paid with their lives and no matter what happens next for her, in a sense she will, too.

...:thumbsup:

it just makes me a little nuts. Okay, a little more nuts.

lol

On edit: And I apologize to our DU docs who have to try to work in this completely dysfunctional system somehow. There are great docs out there. My life more or less depends on two of them.

...:hug:

why doesn't anyone care about that? Poor Andrea? What about her children? I cannot believe I'm reading this bs on DU.

CHILDREN! PEOPLE! They ain't coming back. She lives. They don't. Get it?

Mental illness is not an excuse. PERIOD.

in rare cases can be extremely dangerous.

She did kill five children. Five children that she loved. And it was a completely PREVENTABLE tragedy.

Please--tell us about YOUR mysterious problem.

I'll keep that to myself.

I hope someone agrees that killing children is wrong, no matter what.

If I get a wanton desire to kill people, I will call for help. As she should have. No one ever told her, are you a danger to yourself or others? NO ONE? I smell blood. And I bet she does too. I hope for the rest of her life. I don't give a good god damn if she is mentally ill! I DON'T CARE! SHE KILLED FIVE CHILDREN! Why don't ya'll care about THEM? JEESUS.

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You forgive me? How nice of you! But I did not ask for your forgiveness, nor do I need it, nor desire it.

I'm not ashamed of anything. Just because I don't want to discuss it on the www does not indicate I'm "ashamed".

Please keep your advice to yourself. Are you the armature mental league? Jessus Christ. I can't care about a woman killing her children without coming under attack from you? Who needs help?

And you are right. She will have to live with this the rest of her life.

I wonder why you'd think that someone in a psychotic state would be able to call for help?

nor do I care to. I do believe that someone who has been to a DOCTOR for medcical attention, might have been asked, do you intend to harm yourself or anyone else? THAT is standard procedure.

Call for help? WHAT THE FUCK WAS SHE DOING AT THE DOCTOR'S OFFICE if not asking for help?

I don't buy that she was a hapless victim. Not for a minute. She killed five people.... her children. Babies. She didn't notice that something was WRONG? PLU-LEEZE. If there are that kind of mentally ill people running amock, goddess help us all. Too late for her babies, though, right?

GIVE ME A BREAK!

She was psychotic.

http://www.aacap.org/about/glossary/Psychos.htm

You are educated about your own diagnosis, but it is apparent you know very little if nothing about psychosis. If you did, you would never say she was responsible for what she did, or why didn't she call for help, etc. She didn't any better, understand?

Some info on psychosis from medicineplus.com:

Psychosis

Definition

Psychosis is a loss of contact with reality, typically including delusions (false ideas about what is taking place or who one is) and hallucinations (seeing or hearing things which aren't there).

Causes, incidence, and risk factors

Psychosis is a severe mental condition characterized by a loss of contact with reality.

Symptoms

* loss of touch with reality
* seeing, hearing, feeling, or otherwise perceiving things that are not there (hallucinations)
* disorganized thought and/or speech
* emotion is exhibited in an abnormal manner
* extreme excitement (mania)
* confusion
* depression and sometimes suicidal thoughts
* unfounded fear/suspicion
* mistaken perceptions (illusions)
* false beliefs (delusions)


Yeah, we should really blame someone not in reality for not being in reality enough to take the meds that'll keep them in reality....

I've been around people close to me who have had psychosis. They are frigging whacked out of their minds. The innocence of Yates' victims does not somehow negate the seriousness and realness of her psychosis.

so you're saying the Son of Sam was acting appropriately for his diagnosis?

Where the hell does she get off killing five FIVE babies and saying . oh oops. psychosis. ?

Listen. If she is this psychotic, to be killing babies. FIVE OF THEM! Then how can anyone ANYONE argue that she should be walking the streets? She's okay downtown? Want to go shopping with her?

NO FUCKING WAY. She needs something. And a lock and key sound like a good start. YOU WANT HER WALKING FREE IN THIS STATE? You've proven the case! She does NOT need to be around civilized people. No FUCKING WAY! Lock her UP! Get her some meds. Whatever it takes. Just do not let her in my FUCKING NEIGHBORHOOD! JEESUS.. Why don't you adopt her? Let her come on in and live in YOUR HOUSE?

edit: oh, oops, you might wake up dead. You know that nasty psychotic thingie. Oops... dead! mutilated. She doesn't need to be locked up? THEN WHO DOES? JESUS FREAKING CHRIST!

care, which she sought and did not get, and she needs a team that have a clue, which she did not have.

I do live with someone who needs these things. And since he got them, he's been one gorgeous member of the community.

Next?

a prayer that you don't wake up dead. So what. That is your choice to live with someone who is, by your own admission, dangerous.

Her children didn't have that choice.

Next?

And my partner is not dangerous. He is in good hands and in great shape. Thanks.

Like Andrea, her children relied on the adults and professionals around them to keep them safe. They were failed are miserably as possible.

Andrea is not the problem. The culture that allowed her to be neglected is the problem. So, it should be no surprise to anyone that the same culture now tries to unload the responsibility on her alone. :eyes:

She killed five children. Do you need anything else?

Her lawyer admits she is doing well in prison. I saw him interviewed, and he had no complains of how she is being treated there. But he still wants her to be put in mental hospital. For what freaking reason, I ask? Let's say she is deemed "cured" by the shrinks. Then what? Is the hospital going to release her on society? Where she will promptly stop taking her medications, I have no doubt. She wasn't exactly following the Drs. instructions before the murders. She would stop taking her medications when prescribed. She and Rusty were warned not to have any more kids, but did any of them listen?

You learn to be alert for changes, for signs of disordered thinking.

You learn how to predict times when you or your family member is likely to be stressed out and at risk.

You learn to develop as strong a support system as possible to help support the family.

You learn to develop a safety plan in case things get dicey.

You learn to talk to upset people and learn to help them calm down.

You learn that every day when all of these measures work is a blessing, and you learn to appreciate that blessing.

You learn to have the utmost respect for people who try to manage this illness in themselves.

So, you see, this is mostly about learning. :)

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to suggest her family should learn to manage it. First of all, her husband had divorced her.
Who do you think is going to be there managing her psychosis if she is ever released onto the innocent public? Even if her husband didn't divorce her, he wasn't very good at managing her psychosis before this, was he? I mean, they were warned to stop having kids, but they kept on breeding. Hell, he would probably impregnate her again the minute she is released from that mental hospital. Her family? Her mother and brother seem nice, but they are in denial. The brother declared on national TV Andrea is the most normal person he is ever met. Well, sorry, if Andrea is the most normal person he ever met, I can't imagine the people he deals with day in and day our.

system. I feel pretty culpable myself.

ButI agree, it's five, six or seven lives too late for the Yates family.

There are many, many families managing psychosis every day. One of them might live next door to you.

/typing from hell

mental health system? How can we not put up with it? Frankly, the whole health system in this country scares the hell out of me. People not having access to health care because they don't have a job or have a job without medical insurance? It's obscene. But what exactly can public do to not put up with it?

at the system in Los Angeles County, for one thing.

I honestly don't think that he knows how dangerous the system is, right there in his own district. You know Waxman -- if there's a problem, he goes right after it.

We need to throw everything we can at this because the lives of very vulnerable people hang in the balance -- like the Yates kids, like Andrea's.

Can you imagine waking up in your "right mind" -- because you're finally getting treatment -- in jail, having killed your babies? That's what she gets to do every day.

are just so emotional. They are so PERSONAL.

WHO GIVES A FUCK? Is this about a woman killing her children or about your spouses being like all medded up? WHAT?

Detachment, people. You don't have to PERSONALIZE every fucking thing. This is a CRIME. She killed FIVE CHILDREN! And we don't care? You bet I do. I don't give a god damn what her diagnosis is. I DON'T CARE! She is not fit to walk the streets!

If your hubby got some meds and is now a "gorgeous" member of society, do you think I give a damn? HELL NO! Watch your back!

Angela is hanging around the corner! She just might go psychotic on ya and come knifing for you! Oh goodie. But we are sooo progressive we can forgive murder.... even if it involves five innocent children... or who? Who is fucking next?

With some detachment, one might realize that punishing Andrea Yates will not bring back her children or prevent this horrible cycle from being repeated again.

is that she is locked up. I do not care about her future mental health. No I don't. I care about her dead children. Something that seems to escape you over and over. DEAD CHILDREN.

GET IT? Gonners. They will never have a life. She deserves hell on earth as far as I'm concerned. I do not give a damn about her supposed psychosis. I care about them. The lost ones. She can rot in hell for all I care. She killed babies. I feel the same for her as I do George W. who kills children with no remorse. They can rot. How can you let Andrea off and hold George responsible? Somehow I think you don't hold him resposible. You make excuses. Excuses for murder.

No thanks.

YOU are giving people lectures on detachment?

thinking beyond Andrea to the next mentally ill mother AND HER CHILDREN, and holding the whole system accountable shouldn't be such a stretch, should it?

We already had another mom drown two of her kids out here in San Francisco Bay. There were at least ten people who should have seen the change in her condition to prevent that.

Her family had no support, she got no care, her babies got dead.

She's now locked up.

Who's next? Do we just keep waiting for more children to die needlessly or do we take a long hard look at why and how this is happening? How much do we really care about at risk children?

It's our choice to make. I've made mine.

I came from an abusive past. Obviously I survived. Mothers are not perfect, in many cases. But killing people is wrong. What is it? Why do they do it? I just don't understand. I'm a mother. I would NEVER do anything to hurt my child. What?

If you have a solution, I have open ears.

We need to educate ourselves, first. For our own safety and for the safety of our community. Mental illness is not contained in one body or even under one roof. It affects all of us. We might as well learn what we're dealing with -- especially if there are children in our lives.

NAMI has a good site: NAMI.org; psychlaws.org is a good site; the National Mental Health Association has a good site: NMHA.org

All of these orgs have newsletters and action alerts. And we can use every pair of hands we can get.

NMHA News Release
November 11, 2005



Veterans Day: Remember the Mental Well-Being of Our Troops


Contact:

Heather Cobb at 703-797-2588
or hcobb@nmha.org

ALEXANDRIA, Va. (November 11 2005)—As the nation comes together this Veterans Day to honor the courage and sacrifices of our armed forces, the National Mental Health Association encourages Americans to recognize the daunting array of mental health problems facing returning service members, including depression, anxiety disorders, post-traumatic stress disorder and even suicide.

"A staggering number of veterans are returning home to their family and friends and soldiering through very real mental health problems," says Cynthia Wainscott, NMHA Board Chair. "Unfortunately, many are not receiving the medical attention they need. We have a responsibility to provide these returning heroes with the care and resources they need and deserve to return to healthy, fulfilling lives."

More than 26 percent of soldiers returning from Iraq and Afghanistan have reported experiencing mental health problems. But the numbers of returning service members seeking and receiving care is much lower, due in large part to the stigma surrounding mental illness in the US, particularly within the military. In fact, of the soldiers in one study who screened positive for a mental disorder, less than half sought care, citing stigma as one of the top barriers.

To reverse these trends, NMHA developed Operation Healthy Reunions, a public education program to break down stigma and ensure that returning service members receive the information, support and services they need to safely transition from the combat zone to home. NMHA distributes tip sheets and resources on various mental health topics, including reuniting with your spouse and children, adjusting after war, depression, and post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). These materials and more can be accessed at www.nmha.org and www.nmha.org/reunions.

The National Mental Health Association is the country's oldest and largest nonprofit organization addressing all aspects of mental health and mental illness. With more than 340 affiliates nationwide, NMHA works to improve the mental health of all Americans through advocacy, education, research, and service. For more information call (800) 969-NMHA (6642) or visit www.nmha.org.

it is not a matter of letting yates walk free

it is a matter of transferring her from a prison to a mental hospital

she is not going to be strolling the streets of yr neighborhood with an ak even if she is re-tried & found not guilty

indicates that just because a woman is whacko enough to kill her five babies, she should not be locked up.

She certainly needs to be locked up. I don't want her strolling my neighborhood. Looking for more kiddies to kill?

She's a KILLER! Okay? Why cannot people conceive this? Once you KILL FIVE CHILDREN, what do you think that does to your mind? Maybe messed up before, but after THAT? MY GAWED! KILLING FIVE CHILDREN doesn't have an impact on the mind? Think about it. And then don't. It is too gruesome. Jeese. How can anyone ever be "normal" after that? EVER? I don't think so.

... and I'm in no particular hurry to find it either - not sure my blood-pressure would thank me...

However, one the by-products of advocating free-speech is that we will see statements that make our blood boil - but then we will also have an equally valid opportunity to state a counter position (hence this thread).

If you can imagine. It's pretty disgusting.

I mean... WTF? That's even more barbaric than Bedlam! Beyond medieval.

Does anyone have a link?

:wtf:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=5316909


Read response #69

:(

your avitar? I'm confused.

...they should be in a safe place, and remain there until they can control their impulses--via therapy, medication, whatever.

And I say this as someone who's sister is a bipolar manic-depressive who has had suicidal impulses. At rock-bottom, she didn't care about her "rights," "freedom" etc.: she just wanted a safe, supportive environment in which she could manage her pain.

he could do for himself was go back to bed. During the period of no good care in L.A., he spent most of a year in bed. :(

as a society. This org in Canada but they are worldwide:

http://www.world-schizophrenia.org/activities/fpc/index.html

that way they won't inadvertantly hit any aircraft during the rapture.....


Seriously - overly ardent religious belief gets in the way of treating the mentally ill, and the kids suffered for it.

You can't pray your way out of psychoses.....