Chicago coffee shop bans noisy kids

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/09/national/09bakery.html?incamp=article_popular_1

At Center of a Clash, Rowdy Children in Coffee Shops

CHICAGO - Nov. 8
(snip)
How should restaurants and coffee houses respond to parents whose children are unruly? Right past the sign warning the cafe's customers that "children of all ages have to behave and use their indoor voices when coming to A Taste of Heaven," and right into a nasty spat roiling the stroller set in Chicago's changing Andersonville neighborhood.

The owner of A Taste of Heaven, Dan McCauley, said he posted the sign - at child level, with playful handprints - in the hope of quieting his tin-ceilinged cafe, where toddlers have been known to sprawl between tables and hurl themselves at display cases for sport.

But many neighborhood mothers took umbrage at the implied criticism of how they handle their children. Soon, whispers of a boycott passed among the playgroups in this North Side neighborhood, once an outpost of avant-garde artists and hip gay couples but now a hot real estate market for young professional families shunning the suburbs.

(snip)

Mr. McCauley, 44, said the protesting parents were "former cheerleaders and beauty queens" who "have a very strong sense of entitlement." In an open letter he handed out at the bakery, he warned of an "epidemic" of antisocial behavior.

(snip)

:applause:

;)

:applause: and raise you a :woohoo:

:toast:

I like children, and in coffee shops, but not if they're causing a disruption.

They're exactly right. Children should learn to behave themselves in public. Obviously, their parents are doing a crappy job.

I used to live in that neighborhood a long time ago. I can't believe what it's become. A sign like that would have never been necessary when I was there. Perhaps one asking the patrons to keep their drug deals quieter, but never anything about children. Oh, how the times change.

They're more obnoxious than their kids. I happened to walk by my daughter's old school in Oldtown the other day, and there was a line of SUVs two blocks long, each with a single blonde driver, waiting to pick up their little darlings. It's like an attack of the clones. They used to be called Lincoln Park Trixies, but it's gotten much worse than that.

:popcorn:

between a previously-existing 'bohemian' community, single, gay, cosmopolitan, hip and modest-income in nature, and the new gentrifiers who are pushing up prices and who want all the 'cool' with none of the 'scary.'

He's obviously not happy with the influx of Trixie moms into the area. I bet he wishes they'd take their bleached tresses back to Lincoln Park.

Since I lived through this transition in Bucktown I think you can tell which side I fall on.

Check out Dan's comment from the article:

Mr. McCauley, 44, said the protesting parents were "former cheerleaders and beauty queens" who "have a very strong sense of entitlement." In an open letter he handed out at the bakery, he warned of an "epidemic" of antisocial behavior.

}(

that we were dealing with an invading army of trixies.

:)

Appropriate behavior for a playground would include running and shouting.

Appropriate behavior for a restaurant (in this case, a coffee shop) would include low voices and staying seated.

If my children do not engage in appropriate behavior, I remove them from the scene. Period.

I don't find anything offensive or boycott-worthy here. The owner didn't say children were unwelcome, only that they must behave themselves. One assumes that applies to adults as well (would anyone boycott an establishment that booted an unruly, disruptive adult patron?).

Teaching manners to kids seems to be a dying art these days. Good for you for being the kind of parent who will raise cool kids!

When I was a child, loud, smart-mouthed children were a minority, and it was blamed on poor parenting.

Today, I can't even escape the screaming, yelling, cursing, and constant ruckus in my own home. Did some modern-day child development expert decide that it's stifling to teach children basic manners and respect for other people's property? It seems not to be done so much these days.

were out, whether at church, grocery store, etc. If we wanted to roughhouse at home, we either had to go outside or into the basement. And no, she wasn't a killjoy. WE had a lot of fun... we just had courtesy for others.

And, she and Dad didn't take us into "grown up" restaurants OR movies until we could sit still and not scream.

I honestly think these "Trixies'" attitudes are also causing people to drive so badly, so discourteously.

And yeah, I think misbehaving adults should be tossed from places, too.

Uh, yeah. Sorry, but becoming a parent comes with some sacrifices. Like going out to cafes a little less often. Or finding places that cater to families. Or hiring a baby-sitter. The rest of us are not your free baby-sitters.

I couldn't agree with you more. My 3 year old is very busy and noisy and doesn't like to sit still in one place for more then 2 seconds, so my husband I don't take him out to eat with us right now, we get a babysitter, or we go to Applebee's, and even then if he is not behaving we leave.
I don't expect people to put up with my unruly children, so I expect not to put up with theirs.

home without books, crayons & paper, a small toy or two, etc. And we stick to places like Denny's, Bob Evans, or other family restaurants.

Even my 3 yr old knows that there is acceptable behavior for a restaurant, library, play ground, etc. I don't understand parents who raise their kids to be oblivious of proper behavior or even just the word "no."

We have some friends whose kids (at middle school level) don't grasp what "no" means because it was never enforced, the husband told my husband that they got tired of sounding like a broken record so they gave up. :banghead:

I enjoy cafes with my son, but not for hours at a stretch.

The Starbucks and other cafes in gentrifying areas are quite the gathering place for moms. There's nothing intrinsicially wrong with that, of course, but if a few don't keep a grip on their kids, the situation sours quickly.

A Taste of Heaven's owner is unfortunately correct about the trixies. Many have an allergic reaction to 'no,' 'shut up,' and 'wait your turn,' no to mention 'your precious Madysin is a public nuisance.'

Moms go out in groups, and rather than taking a "mom's night out" where the dads stay home with the kids, they take the kids with them. But these gatherings are more about socializing with the other moms, so the kids are ignored and get into trouble. And kids in groups like that can make more trouble than one kid alone.

The answer is either a) watch your kids when you're out or b) keep them home with dad.

I don't see the point of a Mom's night out if you're taking the kids. And, I don't see the point of taking kids to a coffee house :shrug:

I can see if two moms meet each other to chat in a coffee house. That's not such a big deal that the moms can't each watch their kids. But when you have a group of like 8 to 10 moms chatting and their kids running around playing with each other, it should be done at a park rather than a coffee shop.

agree with Dan McCauley, I will say say one thing about the place. It's decorated like a freaking nursery school. Not that it's any excuse for parents to allow their children to run amok, or bash into the cases or lie on the floor under the feet of people waiting in line. But if you decorate your place like romper room, then sell start selling ice cream in addition to all the other cafe goodies, you're *probably* going to attract more families with kids than writers and artists.

I heard about this controversy as soon as he posted the sign, and thought it was strange that he'd make the place look so cutesy if he was trying to attract a more mixed crowd.

Like I said, doesn't make it right for parents to not teach manners...

he thought it would be a good business choice to attact the families, but wasn't aware of what where that would lead?

not so much anymore. At least among the trixie SUV-driving, pony-tail through the baseball cap crowd. They're incredibly overindulged and it shows.

After I first heard about the controversy, I was thinking of offering to help him make over the cafe so it was more appealing to adults.

must be bad for business-he should ban them too. After the kids, he should go for their older brothers and sisters. Then the moms who look a certain way.Then black folks and hispanics, I'm sure they dont fit his clientel. No construction workers either.

Pretty soon he'll have the exclusive customer base he wants: one person.

The owner wouldn't open a place in Andersonville if he was a bigot, believe me. And maybe he shouldn't have painted the moms with that brush, but he's not wrong. I know that neighborhood well. I know the moms of which he speaks. A surprising number of them are thin and beautiful, with matching clothes and expensive baby-stollers and kids with trendy names who can DO NO WRONG. I've been in that cafe trying to enjoy a coffee and conversation while children (with bellies full of sugar and nothing to do) go apeshit while their moms completely ignore them. I've seen them banging on the glass and getting under people's feet (who are holding scalding cups of coffee) and pouring out the pitcher of milk all over the napkins. But if you DARE suggest to mom that their precious Logan or Madison is causing any trouble well GOD FORBID.

I saw them all the time at the Sheffield and Armitage Starbucks too, when I worked close by there.

"Trixie" was a term popularized by the late Lincoln Park Trixies website. Lptrixies.com satirized the female denizens of the Sheffield & Armitage area as heavily conformist, bleached-blonde, Starbucks-sipping, Jetta-driving overgrown Midwestern Valley Girls with a strong sense of entitlement and a mortal fear of stepping west of Clybourn. Their male counterparts are 'Chads' or 'Trixie males.' These are dough-faced, sports-crazed, and dull as dishwater.

When Trixies marry a loaded Chad, buy an overpriced house in Lincoln Park and a giant SUV with room for the 8-way infant stroller system, decorate the nursery from Cradles of Distinction on Clybourn, have their precious Chase or Madysyn, quit their quasi-professional jobs, and push around their little bologna loaf in their Peg Perego or Maclaren strollers, they graduate to Trixie Moms.

When I worked around there, ALL the Trixies had the same sweeping shag haircut with bad blond streaks. It was crazy, a total uniform. I used to breathe a sigh of relief when I would go home to Lincoln Square and see people with varied hairstyles. Now of course the Trixie Moms are invading Lincoln Square and Andersonville.

Albeit slowly and with great caution and fear. ;-)

and you'll keep them at bay.

My rent has increased dramatically.

:hi:

I know some of these moms :D

I don't go out for coffee with them though. But apparently my daughter goes to "The Right" preschool so I've had a few run-ins.

LOL

The Right Elementary School, etc.

They'll claw each other's eyes out to get their kid into U of C Lab, Chicago Latin, Francis Parker or FXW. If they don't get in it's a crisis!

Which isn't that easy around here.

Who knew it would be such a status thing?

We signed our kid up for the local public school and couldn't be happier. We are free, blissfully free, of the madness of finding the "right school."

As long as it is an approved group.

I'd get a comment like this?

Sorry if I'm not PC enough for you.

as the article indicates, children are kicked out of the feminist bookstore for such egregious activity as standing(!) or talking.

Maybe I'm out of the loop, but in my day we had a term for men who belittled women in such terms: sexist assholes.

In my day we had a term for this type of behavior in general: discrimination

During book readings at Women and Children First, a bookstore that has done more for feminism and children than you will ever know.

Yes, you are out of the loop. I live in Chicago and am familiar with the players in this drama and can tell you that your judgment in this case is way off base.

But as a pediatric health care provider for indigent families, I do more for woman and children every day before noon than some stuck-up toney bookstore ever will in its entire existance.
You'll have to explain to me how something as normal as a child standing during a story is 'bad behavior'.

Women & Children First is hardly "stuck up" or "toney". they've been supporting and educating women (and anyone else who cares to attend) with free events, reading groups and outreach to gay and lesbian youth. I'm glad you work in a field where you contribute to society, but that does not give you the right to diminish the accomplishments of others. Do your patients know you use them to score points in online arguments like that?

Right back atcha! :)

I've been to the bookstore many times. The employees there are not ogres who lure children in just to beat them. They expect children to behave. I have never seen any evidence that a child would truly be removed for simply standing up. But don't you think it's possible that the writer of the article wrote "standing up" instead of "not sitting still" or otherwise distrupting the fun for everyone else?

You cry discrimination about a place you've never been but you're perfectly willing to call it a "stuck-up toney bookstore." It's hardly either, but what do I know, I'm just a customer.

Walk around, talk, noisily eat and drink, laugh, etc., while you're trying to listen? Most indie stores are also very small.

I've seen both adults do this and parents let their kids do it. It's the parents' fault.

Also,m when I managed a chain bookstore years ago, people would bring THEIR KIDS IN, LEAVE THEM AND GO SHOPPING, both in our stores and other stores, wanting us to babysit. WTF????? More than once I called the cops when little kids were left alone for over an hour. Seriously -- don';t have kids if you don't want them. Forgot what your parents and society says. They are not a doll or someone else's responsibility.

a movie and someone decides to have a twenty-minute argument on their cellphone and the usher kicks him out? Or when you're trying to enjoy a meal in the non-smoking section and the asshole next to you lights a stogie and is told to put it out?

Women and Children First is an EXCELLENT bookstore that welcomes families of all shapes, colors, sizes and sexes. But EVERYONE who visits is expected to have basic manners and respect the other patrons who want to listen to the story, browse the books, etc. Same goes for Taste of Heaven.

If you want to start a movement to protect the rights of people who want to behave like selfish boors, be my guest. But until you've been in either one of those establishments and witnessed the behavior described, you are really stretching to call the enforcement of basic rules of conduct discrimination.

Its apparant to me that he and his staff hate young children and their mothers.

Its also very apparant that he is a crap businessman: rather than welcoming customers into his store, he is quoted in the New York Times as saying he'd rather go out of business than serve certain people. Not a smart publicity move, IMO.

Because if his intentions are so apparent to you, then you must be a regular there. Of course, if you were a regular, you'd see that the place is full of children and families and people of many different backgrounds who are enjoying themselves and can behave like humans. He doesn't hate children or mothers. He just won't tolerate bad behavior that annoys and even endangers his patrons. If an adult male came in drunk and started disturbing everyone by screaming and tripping people carrying hot coffee, he would be asked to leave as well. Does that mean the owner hates adult men?

And, by the way, Taste of Heaven is always full of people and does great business. So I think he's doing fine without your PR assistance. I personally would also rather go out of business than allow obnoxious, self-centered, ill-mannered people take over my coffee shop and scare away the rest of my patrons.

P.S. If one of those children were to be stepped on or have scalding coffee spilled on them because they were running around with little or no supervision, you can bet those moms would be the first to file a lawsuit and demand that warnings be placed all over to protect their precious spawn. There would be no recognition that they had anything to do with the child being injured.

What she said. ;-)

parents anymore that let their kids run around and make excessive noise in restaurants, stores, etc. I would gladly give this guy my business. If I go someplace like this it is usually to meet up with someone and have a nice conversation which you can't do when all that racket is going on. I think you are right that it scares off his other clientele. I know I would avoid the place if it was happening all the time.

:evilgrin:

There's nothing normal about kids screaming and running around.

My mom didn't let us run around screaming and slamming stuff in the house, either. That was yard or basement behavior.

:thumbsup:

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Maybe these women will open their own coffee shoppe so they can hang out and dish with their girlfriends while their Lake Woebegon children destroy the place :evilgrin:

if i lived in chicago, i'd go out of my way to support his business....


can we do movie theaters next?

But seriously, as a parent, I would read a sign saying "children of all ages have to behave and use their indoor voices when coming to A Taste of Heaven" as "children are not welcome here" and not patronize the establishment.

I am frankly amazed that a parent would think that it would be relaxing to hang out in a coffee shop with small kids. I get a headache just thinking about it. On the flip side, I have received nasty glares when walking into a coffee shop holding a baby that was fast asleep. So some folks just don't like kids.

Another way to look at it, if you want my money, you may have to deal with my kids. I tried to buy counter top the other day. First I came in the AM when my kids were in preschool, but the only person who could take my order was not in yet. So I tried to do it over the phone while my children napped, but she would not take my order that way. So finally I hauled the kids in with me. Of course they were bored and cranky. And the sales person was nasty about it. Last time I do business there.

My issue with the Taste of Heaven sign (and I am in Chicago and so saw the story on the evening news) is its height placement and its targeting of the children -- NOT their parents. It is quite low on the door, at a height that the just 5-year-old triplets would have to look down at. They are in preschool and cannot read.

It is the parents' responsibility to teach their children how to behave in a vast variety of social situations. And, the earlier the lessons begin, the sooner the children will be able to size up the circumstances. If the children are allowed to run around like wild lunatics, they are just being kids. The parents should not be afraid of discipline.

We have taken the triplets to many restaurants, including several upscale ones, and they have always behaved themselves. If they start to get a bit rambunctious, they are either told to stop that or removed from the room until they calm down. For kids their age, they have excellent restaurant manners...even though we :rofl: at them sometimes.

Their mother often takes them to a coffee shop in the suburb where she lives, and the three behave like a little lady and gentlemen.

The difference lies with the parents. I realize that there are many extremely self-indulgent, permissive parents around who are trying to raise overly self-indulgent children who have no social graces. I even know some people like that and, frankly, they are raising teenaged horrors.

My take -- the sign should be aimed at the parents, not little kids. Older kids who have learned to read, okay. The owner should post the sign at a higher level.

My first was very calm and easy to manage in public. I used to pat myself on the back about what a brilliant parent I was.

Then the second came. Sweet natured and intelligent, but he is wild. He never stops moving. My solution is not to go out much. It is too difficult to keep my son under control and try to eat or have any type of social discourse, so why bother.

Amazing that the triplet's mother can take them out alone! And lives to tell about it!

He shouldn't be directing it towards the kids, they can't help acting their age. Especially when they aren't taught manners by their parents.

Other than that, I say GOOD ON YA Dan.

monotony, I head to a near by coffee shop/bakery. There are two "mommy" groups that meet in there, drink coffee, general chit chat and each has a toddler, infant, or both.

Now, I'm a 34 woman with no kids, but I love kids. And these women are very nice - I have enjoyed my conversations. BUT, they do allow their kids to kind of run around the general area and I just can't work around them. A lot of coffee shop biz are people who work from home, travel for work or are students. Fifteen people sipping coffee and eating danishes happily working away on their laptops or textbooks are interrupted for the better part of the morning by 5 women and their 5 kids completely taking over the place. It is impossible to concentrate.

I dunno. I understand both sides. I guess I usually just take a break to talk with the women and play with their kids, then leave to get back home and back to work. But, I can certainly understand how a coffee shop owner might be perturbed. I have seen some awful kids and parents come through as well. Horribly misbehaved kids.

Start a nice cafe. Offer good coffee, sandwiches, soups, salads and baked goods. Have a separate area behind a short wall with bean bag chairs, children's books and toys. Sounds like there is a market for something like that in the neighborhood in question!

In my area, the only restaurants that are kid friendly are fast food. Which I hate. I don't go to cafes because my little one is too wild. So I don't go out much. But a place that was kid friendly and offered decent food? I would go there.

So the ladies can see a movie in the middle of the day. In that setting, any kiddie noise can be forgiven.

There's a market out there!

Don't get me wrong, I love kids. However, I don't like unruly children who run amok in public places. When I go to a coffee shop, restaurant, store, etc. I do not want to deal with children who obviously have not been taught to use "indoor" voices, walk, and use some modicum of respect and self-control. Businesses are not playgrounds.

If it's nonsmoking, you'll never get me out of there!

We need one of those in Boston.

I've got no problem with a cafe or restaurant that wants to have a peaceful setting for its adult patrons.

However, several of the cafes written up in this article purport to be child-friendly. If they want the business of people with little kids, that means putting up with the accompanying noise and other child-like behavior (within reason). If you're going to invite people with toddlers and infants into your cafe because you want their greenbacks, forget about asking for quiet. Running around, that's one thing if you ain't Chuck E. Cheese. But you shouldn't expect a three-year old to behave in a cafe, like a seven-year in a library would.

Some of the business owners in this article want it both ways: they want those ex-cheerleaders & their kids in their stores, but they want them to act like they're in an adult restaurant.

It don't work that way.

PS - I'm not projecting, here. No kids, and I dislike screaming kids at mealtimes, too.

Or they let them act out their barbarian-ness at home or on the playground. Some negligent mothers are causing the problem at this coffee house.

In the old days, suburban housewives invited each other to kaffee-klatches in their kitchens, while the kids played outside or in the rumpus room. These ladies protect their designer kitchens (with granite counter tops & top-end appliances) & go out for coffee so someone else can do the cleaning up. That's OK--but a business has a right to chastise any disruptive customer.

"Hurray for Dan McCauley".

My son is a restaurant manager and has held positions in 'family dining' and 'casual dining' restaurants. He says he'll never work in the family style restaurants again. He's had kids actually run into the kitchen while their parents ignored them while dining.

I was amused by the mother on CBS who was 'offended' by the sign asking that everyone mind their manners. How dreadful that someone would ask that she teach her kids manners! I guess that's just sooo passe today. Saw another news story about some university (Yale?) running table manner classes because college seniors didn't know how to eat without being rude, how to use the silverware, or how to carry on a polite conversation without using 4-letter words or slang. This is where we're at today!

Also, how sad that someone is 'offended' by being asked to behave, but is not offended by the actions being taken by our government around the world!

sorry, this post keeps sinking. since we have all the chicagoans on this thread, please get your invitation here.
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