Why are people so cruel?

I just don't get the way that some people seem to live for the moment to pounce on someone else. I'm not talking about anything specific - just an observation about humanity in general. I even see this kind of shit happening in church.

Are we devolving into that which we hate? And how do we call bullshit on that kind of behavior?

are in the minority around here and in my real life. In real life, I avoid cruel people like the plague. As for here, though I can't (as a mod) put anyone on ignore, I try to do the same thing. It is a lot easier than it may sound. There are plenty of other :loveya: people to interact with around these parts!!

:hug:

I just don't understand why we seem to leap to the lowest, rather than reach for the highest ideals. Is it too hard?

I tried to express this in my sermon today (whatsoever you do to the least, you do to me). People were so unbelievably quiet. They were listening so closely, I could almost hear them breathing.

I guess I just believe that we can do better. We need to radically re-define love into action.

Shari, you have my admiration. You have a job that can't be easy, and you do it with such grace. :hug:

to a heart that's true.
I don't want no other love
baby it's just you I'm thinkin' of
:hug:

Ignoring it allows the cruelty to spread to the innocent. There is nothing wrong with getting angry about it and calling the wrong doers on their wrongs. Didn't Christ get angry at the money changers at the temple. Didn't the lies and the hypocrisy drive him over the edge.

You can't ignore cruelty - it is a fungus that will destroy all it comes into contact with, imho.

JC gave it to those who needed it: the Pharisees. Self-righteous asshats who held their positions of power to have absolute control over the people.

Brood of Vipers.
Woe to you, Scribes and Pharisees.
Not everyone who says "Lord" will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

It is the highest form of tough love. It is Cindy Sheehan standing in the heat of Crawford. It is Rosa Parks screaming "No!" without opening her mouth. And it only takes one person to speak out - then others will follow.

I was raised Catholic, my parents went out of their way to provide us the basic Catholic elementary education, paying thousands of dollars in tuition because that is what Catholic parents are supposed to do. My family is large so my parents couldn't afford to send us to Catholic schools beyond elementary school. When my baby brother was entering high school he asked to be sent to the local Catholic High School. My mother went to the bank to obtain a loan for the tuition. As part of the tuition costs, the high school administrators included the cost of the books of raffle tickets that the parents were expected to sell to help the school raise funds. When my mother looked over the loan papers and saw those costs, she insisted they be removed from the loan. The bank balked but my mother held her ground. Eventually the bank gave her the loan, minus the ticket costs and when the high school administrators found out they were furious and started to harass my mother. They called her continuously, the nun in charge told her she had to pay the money up front as part of the tuition. My mother explained she would do her level best to sell the tickets, but she would not buy them in advance and would definitely not pay interest on their cost. My mother recognized the wrong and stood her ground, but the torment from the Catholic officials made her feel badly, as if she was doing something against the church. Well, when the principal called my mother and continued to make her feel like she had done something wrong, it set me off.

I went to the library, pulled the state statues on raffles and gambling and loans and found that it was against the law to (1) hold raffles as raffles were considered gambling, and (2) loan money for gambling purposes. I then wrote a letter for my mother to send to the bishop, the president of the bank and the administrators of the school. In that letter I pointed out that all of the loans that the bank had written that included the raffle costs were null and void given that state statute specifically outlaws loans for gambling purposes. I also pointed out the raffles being conducted by the school and all throughout the diocese were illegal lotteries under the existing statute. I simple asked that they leave my family alone and reexamine their policy regarding raffles and tuition loans. I was only 18, but I knew what they were doing was wrong.

My letter and my mother standing her ground in that bank and with the Catholic administrators resulted in all raffles being banned in the diocese until such time as the state laws were rewritten to allow for charitable fund raising raffles. (That didn't happen until the next year.) The bishop sent my mother a personal note apologizing for the confusion and the principal and the nun in charge had to come to my house and personally offer their apologies.

What has this to do with the subject of your thread? Well, the concern for the image of the school (community) overshadowed the concern for the individuals and allowed for the school officials to break the law and to resort to cruel harassment to protect the image and get what they wanted. The school officials saw what they were doing was necessary for the greater good of the school, they were trying to improve the teaching conditions, but in so doing, they neglected to be mindful of the individual needs of the families.

I learned early on that corporations care only about corporations and they will lie, steal and cheat to get what they want. I learned you can stand up to the powers that be, whether it be the Catholic church or the largest bank in your hometown, you can stand up for what is right and for justice.

To this day, I try to take a stand when I see abuse of power and when I see injustices. It is not the image of the community that matters but the rights and feelings of the individuals that make up the community. The old saying is true "one bad apple can spoil the whole bunch" - you need to recognize the bad apples and separate them from the good apples before they spoil everything.

You should post it separately, so I can nominate it!!

Damn, woman - you just described an ideal that helps me sythesize my politics and my faith. And, again - it's the "tough love" of saying "I will not allow MY OOMMUNITY to be corrupted."

I am continually astonished at the depth of wisdom on this board. What an honor to know you, and name you as my friend. :hug:

We all can make a difference in this life. The individuals make up the community, not vice-a-versa. Nurture the individuals and the image of the community will shine.

:blush: I appreciate your kind words and am honored to call you friend. Thanks so much for your love and support. :hug: :loveya:

Sometimes the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few...
And sometimes, the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many.

Spock and Kirk synthsized it, by saying "Sometimes the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few... or the one."

I want a PhD in Star Trek theology.
(then you can call me, rightly, "Dr. Ruth.")

:hug: :loveya:

nt

Be mindful that she was a very faithful and loyal Catholic. Questioning the church is a not allowed and if you question those in the leadership positions, then you are violating the teachings of the church. The cruelty was the constant torment that my mother was subjected to by the school administrators.

I would have never researched the laws or investigated the issues if they had not tormented my mother so. I really get involved when folks I care about are subjected to cruelty.

if trying to instill a feeling of guilt in it's adherents is cruelty- then every religion in the world is run by sadists.
well- the judeo-christian ones, anyway...

and unnecessary. If they had simply let it go at the loan she obtained and her efforts to sell the damn raffle tickets, they would have been better off. They insisted on belittling her, making her feel like a failure in the eyes of the people she had been brought up to respect.

I suppose you would have to have been brought up in a Catholic family with parents of the era where your first born son becomes a priest and your daughters nuns. Then you would appreciate how cruel their tactics were.

Maybe if you try to understand it from that perspective you might be able to understand that it was more than "just business" it was emotional abuse and cruelty, it was bullying. Cruelty has all sorts of shapes and forms.

the only way they can make you feel guilty is if you let them. your mother could have walked away from it/ignored it at any time.

becoming an athiest has done wonders for my blood pressure.

Your compassion is incredible.

How often can this be explained to you, they harassed her, they called her constantly, made her feel like she had done something wrong. They used their power and positions to cause her distress. That is cruelty and would still be cruelty even if athiests conducted themselves in a like manner. Most parents can't just walk away from and/or ignore the administrators of their children's school.

catholic heirarchy doesn't like that.

and "Most parents can't just walk away from and/or ignore the administrators of their children's school..." because they go to public school, and don't have a choice. parochial schools are a matter of choice.
i went to a lutheran high school, and i was supposed to graduate halfway thru my senior year, but the theology teacher didn't like that idea, so he failed me(i didn't fail, he failed me) in a required senior theology class...and the school refused to let me make up just that class in the second semester- it was a full schedule, or nothing.

my parents were upset, but left the decision to me- i transfered to the public high school, and since i had more than enough credits to graduate, i got my diploma without ever attending a single class at the school. i even made the honor roll.

she could to help him feel comfortable in his high school years. Just as your parents allowed you to make the choice, she was respecting my brother's wishes to attend the school.

Bottom line was, the administrators were cruel, the corporations were breaking the laws and taking advantage of average folks and they were stopped.

So glad your atheism has helped your blood pressure, btw.

if you believe in a religion, truly believe, and god's representatives are acting like fuckwits, it hurts your heart, you really don't see how this was being abusive to the mother?

it should be freakin obvious

you can't just choose to be an atheist, people are born w. different types of brains

the poor woman was not "asking for it," no abuse victim is just "asking for it," blame abusers not victims, please

i can't believe they hassled your mom that way, i'm glad you stood yr ground

I couldn't believe they were hassling my mom the way they were. I couldn't stand it, so I did what I could to make them stop. I don't like folks messing with people I love, I get very protective. :blush:

:hug:

x(


thanks for your kindness :hug: :love:

The terrible hungers that underlie cruelty are entirely human.

Fungus could never be so calculated. Forgive me. :blush:

And in my darker moments it is one of the things I perseverate on. It seems with the rise of the Reich-wing that things are getting worse. I only hope we can reverse the trend before it becomes unstoppable. :scared:

If someone attacks you, I will speak out... and so will the rest of us. There's always hope.

everyday, people do the simple, right and good thing. Many more of them do this, than do not. It's just that the scuzzbags get all the attention.

I think that is important to remember too. :hi:

677777 <------ that's my cat Oreo, agreeing with you, too. :)

Of course, I like all cats. :hug:

The "scuzzbags" are a minority, but they are a very vocal and visible minority. That is why, though only 15% of the nation wants "abstinence only" sex-ed, the majority of our schools currently teach this drivel (to the detriment of our children's health and well-being). That is why the country is being taken over by repressive, regressive laws that are chipping away at the rights and freedoms we hold so dear. The good and sane people of the nation are being overridden by the loud, crazed, hateful minority. It needs to stop before the dark ages return. :scared:

scuzziness, it's just that it is important to remember, like I tell my kid, that most people are good. :)

It's all the more reason we should fight. We have more people on our side, so we need to stop being the silent majority and fight back. :patriot:

But they are just too cowardly to inflict that same cruelty on themselves. Little do they know that to some degree they ARE inflicting their problem back on themselves.

The first way is in the loss of respect they gain from those who know them. Even strangers are less likely to help an obvious "asshole" out while kind folks oftentimes get an unexpected rescue every now and then.

The second way is in the physical damage that their hate reflects back within themselves. Happy people heal faster and laughter really is good medicine. Negative emotions are bad medicine and can even cause internal damage like ulcers for instance.

A third problem which cruel people must suffer through are those times when their "bad karma" comes back to haunt them in the form of their victims "getting even". Oftentimes bystanders will cheer that one on, "He sure got what he deserved..hee hee"

As to are we "devolving" here, I can not prove it but I believe that we are actually evolving into nicer people. My reasons here boarder on the spiritual. As an atheist I would be hard pressed to argue this last observation so I will leave it at that unless you ask for further details.
c

actually are not happy with themselves."

ALso, many times they are insecure and putting down somebody else makes them feel superior, and for a while, makes them feel better about themselves.

Also, some people are just ill-mannered and were allowed to get away with too much when they were growing up. I have a relative like that, to my sorrow. She seems to think being a smartass and hurling out abusive remarks --in emails-- (very passive-agressive, that)-- is cute. Strangely, I don't think so.

I don't think spirituality is reserved for the religious alone. In fact, many of the atheists I know are thoughtful and caring people. We just have a different world-view, which I respect.

I certainly hope we are evolving... or at the very least, we are recognizing that our society has lost some of its compassion and ability to empathize. Perhaps we are remembering and learning from past mistakes. But we still need reminders to keep us on course.

thanks for your response.

Hits my "nail" right square on the head Rev.
You're welcome for the response but it is I who should be thanking you for the question. It brought about some needed introspection.

"Truth" is simple. Recognizing it, often isn't.
(maybe I should put that on a bumpersticker?) :)

I think it almost always relates back to how someone was raised.

Children who grow up in homes where there is ridicule and abuse and bigotry will have a greater chance of becoming adults who take those behaviors out into the world. Some will, of course, see the damage done by that way of living, and become kinder adults than their parents, but we live what we learn too often.

When I encounter cruel people, my big mouth calls them on it, and I'm continually amazed by their reactions. Most act outraged when they are faced with a negative response to their behavior, as if I should be happy to accept their cruelty! They are entitled and who am I to expect them to be better people?

This tells me these types have deep-seated issues of acceptance in their own lives. They are almost always cowards when their peers aren't around to laugh at their twisted ways of hurting others.


Good question, Rev! :hi:

I just have a big mouth, and I can't stand bullies...:)

:hug: Nice to see ya!

I'm reminded of the kind of situation where a person is confronted with a video or voice recording of their own words, and how stunned they are at what's coming out of them.

Recently, I had to sit down with one of the little old ladies here, who was having problems with one of our pre-teens. It's easy to blame adolescence and dismiss the person. What finally got her to open her eyes is when I asked her "can you understand how she might have heard your words in that way? Not the words you said - but how she might have misunderstood you?" I knew she would take those words to heart - and sure enough, two days later she reached out to the girl with open arms.

Turns out, the woman has deep issues of her own - that go back almost 80 years. The pain of her family's abusiveness gave her a sharp tongue, and she lashed out whenever she felt threatened. BOTH woman and girl were hurting, but for different reasons. Once they could see that, they could begin to understand each other better.

I react myself sometimes too quickly, without asking "why" someone is behaving as they do.

Kudos to you Rev for trying to build those bridges.

:yourock:

with whom I wanted to actually be friends.

I like nice people.

I know charming left-wingers and horrid nasty left-wingers. I know charming right-wingers and horrid nasty right-wingers.

I really don't think that politics have anything to do with what a person is genuinely like.

with them, but I don't mind associating with them as acquaintances.

Or did I misunderstand your post?

I have relatives, friends and co-workers who classify themselves as Republicans, yet somehow they manage to be kind, considerate and caring human beings.

I may no longer be religious, but the Catholicism I was brought up believing in said that you loved the person, in spite of their faults and no matter what. There is humanity in every one of us, to deny any one group of people that humanity is just plain wrong, at least in my opinion.

Judgemental! :spank: Judgemental! :spank: Judgemental! :spank:

I have met a full spectrum of folks, cruel to kind, in both parties.
I suspect that the... um..."narrow minded" supporters of either party look at their counterparts as "morans" or "evil asshats" out to ruin Democracy. I post this observation with some trepidation, knowing that flames may follow from those here who may feel that I just labeled them narrow minded.

I also feel that America has been "deliberately" divided and that we are being encouraged to vilify our counterparts. By keeping us at odds with each other we remain distracted from the richer Democratic process. The truth is we are all Americans, we all participate in Democracy by voting and exercising our Freedom of Speech. Shouting at our "stupid" counterparts accomplishes nothing. Neither side gains enlightenment this way. Democracy REQUIRES an enlightened electorate.

America is broken right now. True healing must come from within by all parties, not from without as in one party forcing it's views on the other party ("for their own good!!!"), just because that one party holds power over the other. (Ok, so I really am a liberal...bite me)

:P

pounced and started batting at it. :evilgrin:

:)

Just look at all the RWers, how cruel they are, and how much of what they think was taught from the pulpit. Do they EVER read Matthew? Our minister spent an entire summer preaching about the Prayer of Jabez ... sort of how pestering God would get Him to give you more stuff. Everyone lapped it up -- fits right into the Boca lifestyle. Then he went on to The Purpose-Driven Life -- a book that I couldn't stomach past the third chapter. It's all very self-centered.

I've heard so much of give the seed and God will multiply it back to you..as if giving is only for what you get in return.

The first time I was in church in many years was for a baby's baptism a few years ago. The minister was speaking about two church members who had approached him with their newly attained riches. One was a very large diamond ring and the other was a new bigger boat. I thought perhaps it was in poor taste for him to single out his church members..thinking that he was going to bring up the sins of pride or perhaps the poor. Instead, he went on to say those people are justified in their happiness and pride because they've worked hard for the possessions..and if only more people would be that excited about giving to the church, they would be also be blessed with more.

I sat there in shock.

When is the last time you heard a "feed the poor" sermon? Well ... unless you went to RevCheesehead's service ...

The rest are all into "gimme" sermons.

they crop up frequently there, and it's where I go to Mass most weeks.

S. Margaret's Tylers Green, Holy Trinity Penn, S. Mary's Bourne Street, the Brompton Oratory - need I go on (I can do).

I've never heard a "gimme" sermon anywhere either.

We get socially conscious sermons all the time.

Catholic church when my children were growing up. I think what took me by surprise was that the baptism took place in a Lutheran church and I really didn't expect to hear that. As a child, I'd heard it all too often at some of the fundamentalist churchs..didn't set right with me then and it sure doesn't now.

That is one shit & shinola spreader - someone who thinks of the Trinity as an elaborate pyramid scheme. Just guess who's always on top? :puke:

Sounds like that pastor is being led into temptation. :scared:

But there's an awful lot of that going on down here. It's part of where the lack of compassion comes from -- if you're good, God will bless you. If you're bad, God will make you poor ... so it's your own damn fault if your life ends up in the shitter. I have a chronic illness that my in-laws think is punishment for my sins.

More later ... husband is here to take me to pick up the kitty.

I just read your post to my husband ... he says, "She uses bad words -- that's funny!" Uh, he does, too ...

I've never heard of Robert Tilton. I don't think I want to!

Edit: Typo ... and it looks like I responded to someone else's question. Oops. :blush:

Most clergy do... they just don't admit it.

How true! :rofl:

He says you're funny. :)

I've heard about him..didn't his ministry take money out of envelopes years ago and throw away the prayer requests? Gosh..it's been a long time ago..my Mom was very into TV evangelists, tent revivals etc. She sent many of them a lot of money.

The minister I referred to was from a Lutheran church which stunned me even more...I hadn't expected that type of crap there.

(dial-up warning)
http://www.di-links.com/link791

:rofl:

:rofl: I couldn't even see the whole thing ... I was laughing so hard! :rofl:

The Spirituality of ME.... it's all about ME.....
That was the crux of the sermon I did yesterday. And I gave them examples of how I was being judgmental in various situations, without realizing it - and how I learned from that behavior.

I have a bumpersticker in the back window of my car that says "Christianity is a Relationship." And it ain't just "me & Jesus." (that's how I began my story)

I would love to have heard your sermon! Sounds like you and my husband have a lot in common ... I wish I could remember his exact words, but they're something like this: For them (the mean people), it's about personal spirituality that has nothing to do with how they treat other people as long as they're "right with the Lord" in their own little world. It really IS about just "me & Jesus" to them. I have a whole bunch of in-laws who belong to that club.

BTW, I did finally answer your post from the other night, but I didn't catch it till the AM. I hope you didn't think I was ignoring your question. :blush:

I've been extraordinarily busy - more than usual, of late... And yes, sometimes I fall asleep, too!

Sometime, I'd love to discuss your experiences in the Wyo. Conference.
(Do you happen to know Bill Lawrence? He was one of my preaching professors - and one damned fine human being.)

I'll see if my husband can jog my memory. Where did you go to school? My husband went to Drew from (I think) 1978-81 ... or around then.

I know Bill was a DS in your conference before he came to Duke. He only stayed a few years.... but he was a ray of sunlight, who actually helped instill in me the desire to preach. A very thoughtful and compassionate man.

They took a class together at Drew in Medieval Theology. He says Bill was one of the good guys. He wasn't a DS when we were there, though. Things might have turned out differently if he had been.

I just can't say enough good things about him. :)

We doubt he knew the circumstances of us leaving ... and the official reason is always different from the real one. We never went to him during that time.

"For them (the mean people), it's about personal spirituality that has nothing to do with how they treat other people as long as they're "right with the Lord" in their own little world. It really IS about just "me & Jesus" to them."

One of my uncles married a woman JUST LIKE THAT. She acts as if she's SOOOOOOOOOO religious--and maybe she THINKS she is. But she treats other people, unless she's trying to suck up to them, like shit.

It just about makes me want to :puke: to hear them talk ... and they're always "praying" for me. That means they're praying that I'll become like them. Their kids all grow up and go to church (ours don't b/c of what happened to their dad). All the boys become ministers.

But they're all repubs and think bush* is a man of God. How can someone be religious and think that? Is it OK to send our kids off to die for lies as long as we're going to church while we do it? And why are "religious" people so concerned about what gay people are doing in their bedrooms and so uncaring about the poor people in NO? It baffles me.

Your uncle's wife must be related to them.

I have pounced at least twice. One was because my husband was being belittled and the other was in a GD discussion where I was attacked. Now I don't go looking for trouble but I guess my point is, even if I was just defending self and hubby, I am just as guilty for taking offense. I know that I felt threatened and hurt and I attacked.

I'm pretty sure thats the bottom line for those who are doing the initial offending as well. I'm learning, I'm just a little slow.

It's just that some people are more self-aware than others. The good news is that we are people capable of learning and changing our own behavior. Then we can lead by example.

as a function of the 4th developmental epoch of human beings, i think he mentions; the 5th epoch will be 'a bitch on wheels' before what it is we have always been, but are less & less in touch with = creatures of spirit, is returned to a state of balance or original grace

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=4318714

who care about evil, and social injustice.

I didn't catch yours at first glance ...

How can people be so heartless
How can people be so cruel
Easy to be hard, easy to be cold

How can people have no feelings
How can they ignore their friends
Easy to be proud, easy to say no

Especially people who care about strangers
Who care about evil and social injustice
Do you only care about bleeding crowd
How about a needing friend, I need a friend

How can people be so heartless
You know I'm hung up on you
Easy to be proud, easy to say no

Especially people who care about strangers
Who care about evil and social injustice
Do you only care about bleeding crowd
How about a needing friend, we all need a friend

How can people be so heartless
How can people be so cruel
Easy to be proud, easy to say no
Easy to be cold, easy to say no
Come, on, easy to give in, easy to say no
Easy to be cold, easy to say no
Much too easy to say no

It's the first thing I thought of when I read the thread title.

I love Three Dog Night :-).

mama told me not to come
she said
that ain't the way to have fun
son

Good memories (sigh).

And what did the name Three Dog Night mean?

and that is Aborigine in origin as in you would need three dogs to sleep with to stay warm! I'm not sure if anyone was Aussie :shrug:

I was in love with Danny Hutton, I think :-). They all had long hair, but that was the times......

(Say what you will about Billy Joel - I think he's brilliant.)

Two Thousand Years

In the beginning
There was the cold and the night
Prophets and angels gave us the fire and the light
Man was triumphant
Armed with the faith and the will
Even the darkest ages couldn't kill

Too many kingdoms
Too many flags on the field
So many battles, so many wounds to be healed
Time is relentless
Only true love perseveres
It's been a long time and now I'm with you
After two thousand years

This is our moment
Here at the crossroads of time
We hope our children carry our dreams down the line
They are the vintage
What kind of life will they live?
Is this a curse or a blessing that we give?

Sometimes I wonder
Why are we so blind to fate?
Without compassion, there can be no end to hate
No end to sorrow
Caused by the same endless fears
Why can't we learn from all we've been through
After two thousand years?

There will be miracles
After the last war is won
Science and poetry rule in the new world to come
Prophets and angels
Gave us the power to see
What an amazing future there will be

And in the evening
After the fire and the light
One thing is certain: Nothing can hold back the night
Time is relentless
And as the past disappears
We're on the verge of all things new
We are two thousand years

two crackhead bitch-asses STOLE my stereo AND my 3DN Greatest Hits album.

feel small. It's the only way they know to build themselves up.

Very sad.

We are more concerned with fostering an image of a community than we are in protecting the individual members in that community. That community can be this board, our churches, our neighbor, our cities or the nation. When image matters more than the individual, then you know you have serious problems, imho.

We all need to learn to look into our hearts for the strength and guidance to live with compassion for everyone.

:hi::hug:

I pray for the strength and guidance every day. I can stand up to the cruelty, I am thick skinned and hard headed and often too stupid to know that what is said to me is meant to hurt me. It is the cruelty to others that angers and wounds me and I find myself praying every day that I can find forgiveness for those that are cruel, for those that perpetrate the lies and foster the hate. At times my contempt can be so strong that I fear I might become like them and then I am truly afraid.

All I can do is try, one day at a time, one step at a time. My 7th grade science teacher told me "Life is never fair." - he neglected to let me know that it would never, ever be easy.

:hug: :loveya:

Is it so fucking difficult to be nice???????

And you call bullshit on that behaviour by your own behaviour and by your willingness to speak out and SAY something. And, yeah, you'll get called nasty names... but it's worth it.

Khash.

But we all have a choice: how will I respond today?

Sometimes i choose to be a rude and ugly b..... And then there are better days, when I realize that my ugliness only drags me further down into some place I don't want to be.

I try to be the nice caring empathetic guy. And I am!

I can be mean and hateful and bitchy too. But I try to do that only when the person on the recieving will get a laugh out of it. Doesn't always work out that way, though.

Khash, meek and mild.

You're one of the great ones here, K. :hug:

where a small core of lay control freaks run everything and try to demean anyone who doesn't agree with their leadership. We left that church.

A church can be politically liberal and still be completely unspiritual low-consciousness environment, and it doesn't have to be a right-wing fundamentalist church to be that way.

I actually have more respect for conservative church-goers IF they are truly trying to live the message of Christ's compassion. It is all about integrity.

Without compassion and integrity we have nothing.

Personally - I stopped being a church goer when I was in my late teens. I didn't see much brotherly love around me.

So for many years I clung to the simple words first do no harm then I added my own thoughts what good can come of this.
I try to live by doing the best for all concerned which may mean not doing something that I want if there is a chance that my actions might hurt others.

"Doing no harm" becomes not enough. Compassion, integrity, and action are all important.

I read an article about ten years ago where someone asked a famous historian about basic laws of history. He said the first law was the famous "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely". He said that the second law was that "good needs to be continually redone". We need to keep creating good in the universe. I see it as a real spiritual task because construction is so hard, while destruction is so easy. It is always a challenge, it is always hard work.

Entropy is always increasing the level of destruction in the universe, and it's our job as conscious beings to try to fight it.

Tucker

check your pm's my friend :hi:

I will try to find it, ponder, and post later.

Packers 40, Vikings 3. :bounce:

It's so easy to get sucked into that vortex. There are those who just live to draw people into their angry world. It's their way of controlling others. The best thing we can do for ourselves is to recognize the signs in us that says we're sinking into a place we don't want to be, then back away for our own sanity.

"There are those who just live to draw people into their angry world. It's their way of controlling others."

Might I also suggest that it's their way of trying to be comfortable living in that world? I mean, really - when you do anger 24/7 - how happy can you be? And what happens to your spirit?

the way I see it. All that anger all the time allows for little if any real happiness. The spirit is totally crushed. That's one reason why it can take a long period of therapy before someone is out of the depths of depression. And why some people never make it out of that pit.

That takes lots of courage, my friend. Been there, done that. Some people are terrified of looking that closely. I think it's the best thing I've ever done for myself. :)

You speak words of wisdom, Mr. BWA.

It does take courage. Many people will not face their demons. They'd rather live lives of quiet desparation and let their toxic personalities eat them alive rather than deal with discovering who they really are and why they were put here in the first place.

To some homosexuality is an abomination before God. To me it's not knowing or wanting to know why we're here and not finding our right place to use the gifts that were given to us.

Been there, done that as well.

Thank you Miss Cheese. Coming from you that means a great deal. You seem to draw out the best in people.

:)

But thank ye kindly. :hug:

Anything you say. You got it.

:) :hug:

"to draw out the best in others."
Some people have to work at that.
Others, like you, are just naturally there.

I'm afraid that's the attitude many times. Some people just like to go around popping balloons. It's very childish, in a way.

"someone peed in my cornflakes." :)

in the coliseum.

Man is the only animal that deals in that atrocity of atrocities, War. He is the only one that gathers his brethren about him and goes forth in cold blood and calm pulse to exterminate his kind. He is the only animal that for sordid wages will march out...and help to slaughter strangers of his own species who have done him no harm and with whom he has no quarrel. ..And in the intervals between campaigns he washes the blood off his hands and works for "the universal brotherhood of man"--with his mouth.
- What Is Man? Mark Twain can say it best.

The early martyrs were simply trying to live and express their faith.

It was the Romans who were cruel.

Chimps have wars over territory, during which they commit acts of infanticide, murder, and cannibalism. Male dolphins will sometimes gang-rape an unwilling, struggling female. Bottle-nosed dolphins have been known to go on a campaign against pods of smaller porpoises and kill the entire pod--local genocide. Atrocity is no more a uniquely human trait than altruism is.

Tucker

own faults. What fucking animal isn't territorial?

We keep thinking that most people have evolved past thier own wants and needs. However except for a few bright spots (such as DU posters) the majority of the public just only care about themselves.
For instance how many times have you heard someone talking loudly and inappropriately at a resturant? Or how many times have you been run down in a supermarket because someone is talking on a cell phone? People are simply not aware of other needs emotional state untill it effects them.
While I personal believe in love thy neighbor and the golden rule I feel that these concepts are too grandiose and noble for the average wal mart shopping, can i have cheese with that, toby kieth loving,
trailer park sleeping, apathetic american to simply care about other people.
I agree with you it sucks but sadly theres nothing we can do it except lead by example. Remember we can't change others only are reaction to them.
:hug: and peace. If you need too talk please pm me. Your a good person revcheesehead. Dont let the masses get to you. There just ignorant self absorbed sheep.

:rofl:

Answer: Only with the Cheese's permission. :evilgrin:

Oh, I'm fine, DanCa. Really. I was just extremely contemplative last night. I got hit full-face with the reality of the world, and people who experience real emotional pain and suffering.

The sheep may be ignorant and self-absorbed... but they're still sheep. Maybe I can't reach sheep #43 - but I still hope and pray that someone will. The Shepherd won't rest until all 100 are accounted for. ;)

One of the stories he reaccounts is about a farmer who lost his wife when a mule kicked her in t he head. The guy asks a farmer "why didn't you put the mule down" The farmer asks, "It's just a dumb animal why should i put him down when he didn't know what it's doing?"
It's a very good story you should read it.

I'm not sure people are any more cruel now than they were at any other point in history. I think that if you look at history, society seems to go through stages where civility and politeness seem to be more important, followed by periods where the social fabric appears to be breaking down.

As for how to call bullshit on that kind of behavior, I really couldn't tell you. I tend to be rather silent when it comes to people being rude to me (in person at least). It usually seems like they're so much more miserable than I am that it isn't worth it to get worked up over. Now if they're rude or mean to someone else, that's a different matter....:grr:

I can be a pit-bull of terror when it comes to confronting abuse of others. But when it's me - well, let's just say I'm working at finding more profiable ways to respond.

I like that. Gonna have to steal that one (with your permission, of course). :D

Just guessing, but I think they need a strong other person to pull out the kind person that should act as playful as a chimpanzee. Yes chimps are playful over 40% of the time. We should just all get naked and start brachiating... Works for chimps.

Oops, sorry Reverend!

I kinda like the "let's get nekkid" thing - fewer places to hide our weapons, ya know. :)

No matter how "sophisticated" we become, they'll always be a part of us; and we need to keep them in check.

Thanks for the reminder, Rev! :hug:

"And how do we call bullshit on that kind of behavior? "

How do we? I'm the type I need specific examples, specific responses.

For instance, "I wonder why you thought it was necessary to say that."

That one's relatively low-key. Of course, it would depend on what the person said/did.

Like when Ann Landers encouraged someone to respond "and exactly why do you need to know that information?" Puts it back squarely on the instigator.

Same amount of everything, yet more and more to share it.. People are not natural-born sharers.. Most people think that anyone who gets anything, must have gotten it at their own expense..greed, envy, fear of the other..whatever..

People (in general) are getting ruder:(

Behavioral sink
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Jump to: navigation, search
J. B. Calhoun presented in an article titled Crowding into the Behavioral Sink (Scientific American, 206: 139-148) a study of behavior under conditions of overcrowding. This study has become a touchstone of urban sociology and psychology in general; the term has passed into common use.

Calhoun provided a cage of rats with food and water replenished to support any increase in population, but the cage was fixed at a size considered sufficient for only 50 rats. Population peaked at 80 rats and thereafter exhibited a variety of abnormal, often destructive behaviors; his conclusion was that space itself is a necessity. Subsequent studies involving humans have shown it is not mere lack of space that causes the behavioral sink; it is the necessity for community members to interact with one another. When forced interactions exceed some threshold, social norms break down. Thus social density is considered more critical than geometric spatial density.

Notable conditions in the behavioral sink include hyperaggression, failure to breed and nurture young normally, infant cannibalism, increased mortality at all ages, and abnormal sexual patterns. Often, population peaks, then crashes. Actual physical disease, mental illness, and psychosomatic disorders increase. There are eating disorders; in human populations, drug and alcohol use rises.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_sink


"Same amount of everything, yet more and more to share it.. People are not natural-born sharers.. Most people think that anyone who gets anything, must have gotten it at their own expense..greed, envy, fear of the other..whatever.."

Yeah, a lot of people think everything is a zero-sum game; one wins, the other loses. And some things are. For instance, if a department has one department head, if you get the job, I don't (or vice versa).

Advertisements encourage this sort of thinking.


"People (in general) are getting ruder:("

No argument there!

There was a time when most neighborhoods had their own schools, and there were small schools all over town. There were multiple junior highs with grades 7-8-9, so that by the time kids were dumped head first into high schools, they had gradually become accustomed to more and more schoolmates.. These days (at least here) the middle school is for 6-7-8 grades, and high school starts at grade 9.. This one thing sets up smaller kids at each juncture, as potential "victim or bully"..

A 14 year old, suddenly dumped into high school , especially a BIG high school is usually going to have some problems.

The older age groupings seemed saner and kepts kids of similar developmental stages together..
grades 1-6 = ages 6-11 (roughly)
grades 7-9= ages 12,13,14..
grades 10,11,12= ages 15-16-17

My son's high school had almost 4 thousand students..That's just too big..

Turning schools into an "industry" was a bad idea.. Somewhere along the line "bugger is better" overtook common sense.

“He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone...”

Some of us are holier than thou with our attitudes and begin bullying others based on what bullying is all about.

What is bullying?
Bullying includes a wide variety of behaviors, but all involve a person or a group repeatedly trying to harm someone who is weaker or more vulnerable. It can involve direct attacks (such as hitting, threatening or intimidating, maliciously teasing and taunting, name-calling, making sexual remarks, and stealing or damaging belongings) or more subtle, indirect attacks (such as spreading rumors or encouraging others to reject or exclude someone).

Girls most often bully other girls more than boys. For example, instead of physically harming others, they are more likely to spread gossip or encourage others to reject or exclude another girl.

Bullies use power to control others. Usually, a “dominant individual (the bully) repeatedly exhibits aggressive behavior intended to cause distress to a less dominant individual (the victim).” Girl bullies tend to manipulate social groups by name-calling, verbal abuse and spreading rumors to damage friendships among others or to exclude selected girls from social interaction. Thus, girl bullies tend to use non-physical aggression more than physical violence. Most recently, girls are reported to be using the Internet to harass their peers.

Girls who engage in relational aggression and bullying suggest that they often do so to alleviate boredom, by creating excitement, finding out gossip, seeking attention/importance and seeking validation from a group that excludes others.


Had to say it... it happens and it applies to all of us, myself included. And I recently noticed that most of the cruelty here is girl/girl, woman/woman. Why do we treat each other with such contempt?

:thumbsup:

It won't surprise you to learn that most of my opposition in churches come from the women, rather than the men.

Women tear one another down... because we have to annihilate the competition. It's part of our basest, ugliest self - and we loathe ourselves when we go there.

(and please, say hi to you know who for me)

Women debate with a different attitude than men and I cannot figure why we are that way?!

I see men in my office disagree to the point of one possibly walking out of the room on each other, yet they are still friends and laugh with each other. When women debate it ends up with hurt feelings, mean thoughts and cruel remarks and almost ends the friendship (until one comes to their senses and apologizes). And the guilt stays with both for getting to that point!

Men - you gotta love and hate 'em at the same time!

And yes, you know who is doing fine along with the other you know who's friend.

when it's based on this whispery i'll PM you so we can be on the same page of hating together kinda stuff. i guess some people love to go along to get along, or love to judge people they've never even met, never will. it's kinda pointles, ignorant and randomly hateful. and thank god, it's completly beneath the vast majority of people here.

in school and in the workplace.

Especially girls/women. Finding a few or a group who will help them gang up on someone just acts like a drug and it quickly spreads out of control. I've been on the receiving end.

People who are secure in themselves and their lives rarely, if ever, bully or attack. Sometimes, just being a secure, confident person is all the bully needs to launch the attack on the person that he/she envies, however subconsciously. It makes me really sad.

Look no further than the current administration...

fighting over Tickly Me Elmo dolls a few Christmases ago. I was apalled. Even I see that as some sort of slap in the face of all who hold the holiday as sacred. I wish people would actually try for Peace on Earth and Goodwill toward men instead of piss on Earth and God help you if you touch the last fad toy I want to buy for my child. What's wrong with people. My parents would have never acted that way. They would have gotten me something else. I would have enjoyed whatever I got for Christmas. I sure didn't need the fad toys. I usually got those the next year when they were discounted because no one wanted them any more. I appreciated them more than most kids did too. Until an unforseeable event beyond my control happened a couple of years ago, I still had my handheld Pac Man game. I had gotten it 2 years after everyone else had gotten theirs. I enjoyed it more too.

We were too poor to buy them, so we made furniture for their dollhouse out of scraps of wood. We still have the dollhouse and the furniture, and our kids are 26 and 28. They don't want us to ever get rid of them. How many kids do you suppose still have the cabbage patch dolls that their parents stood in line and fought other shoppers for?

And now people will spend the entire holiday season spreading intolerance toward any store or other institution that chooses to hang "Happy Holiday" signs instead of "Merry Christmas" ones ... all the while complaining that the stores are "taking Christ out of Christmas."

call bullshit or don't call bullshit, it's a type of person that won't change, they'll always be with us, but they are not "people" or even the majority, it's like they are some kind of evil mutation among us

the majority of people are kind, i was just thinking about this today, for every shithead who is laying awake at night trying to figure out a way to stop even one tax dollar getting to a disaster victim, there are probably a hundred kind people who donate money or support or a place to park a trailer or waive a small fee for a service or...i could just go on and on

nice topic

Seeing how I am currently the topic of rumor and innuendo and downright cruel and nasty lies, I can relate. And what really gets me is when it comes with false concern from people who really have no business asking about my personal life and have never cared before.

But it has made me circle the wagons and cut many people out of my life lately who were nothing but excess baggage, and it has showed me who my true friends are.

Such ugliness in my life has prompted me to send beauty out there in response, which is why I started the daily poetry threads.

I won't let the bastards get me down...

RL

:hug:

:hug:

RL

“And what really gets me is when it comes with false concern from people who really have no business asking about my personal life and have never cared before.”

Ann Landers used to suggest saying, “Why do you want to know?”

And Rev. Cheesehead posted above,

Like when Ann Landers encouraged someone to respond "and exactly why do you need to know that information?" Puts it back squarely on the instigator.

My friends who have been asked innappropriate questions about me have replied, "if you are so concerned about him, why don't you call and ask him yourself?" Shuts them down pretty fast.

RL

:cry: say it isn't so, Alec!

Live your life for you. Love your poetry too btw.

:thumbsup:

not by calling bull****, but by being better than that ourselves. Practice random acts of kindness and senseless beauty!

Cruelty is the natural state of man...

:)

:rofl: