Video games for 9 year old son. Can they help? Very Long.

I have a very lovely nine year old boy. Beautiful, lovely behavior, his teachers adore him and he is the apple of our eye.

He struggles with school. I mean..really struggles. We spend at least an hour every night with him on his reading. We've done summer school every summer, tutors in the summer so he doesn't fall so far behind...we work closely with his teachers, all of whom have been fabulous and patient.

Still..he falls behind. We just had him tested and although he was classified as "severe underachievement" in two areas, his IQ is too high to qualify him for special ed.

They believe he has a processing disorder of some kind. His biggest problem is speed. He fails miserably at any test that has a time limit. It takes him forever to finish assignments. He usually arrives at the correct answer but it takes FOREVER.

His teachers likened his problem to having a huge file cabinet in the brain. The correct answer is filed in one of the drawers. When the time comes to answer the question, he opens up every single drawer to find the right answer. He always arrives at the right answer, but it takes him forever to find the right drawer. It is so frustrating for him, as you can imagine.

We have always taken great pride that we have never allowed video or computer games in our house. He doesn't even ask for them and never mentions them. During his down-time, he lives for Legos. He can build anything out of anything. He loves to see how things work. Gears, hydraulics, etc, just thrill him.

We thought we were doing the right things. But he still struggles so terribly that now I am wondering if perhaps some video games would help him with his "speed".

He needs to learn to take more risks. He needs to increase his "speed" at which he solves problems.

Can video games help this? Of course...I would never allow violence and his playing time would be severely limited, but I am wondering if this may be worth a shot.

Am I crazy?

ANY advice would be most appreciated.

Perhaps something like Sim City, where he can work with his love of building things, and still have to work within a time span and deal with math concepts, planning, etc. Civilization is a good one in that line also.
But these may be a bit advanced for a 9 year old.

Don't get me wrong, it's one of my faves -- but the turn-based style of play might not a good fit with this child.

I mean, I sometimes stare at my empire for 5 or 10 minutes trying to figure what to do.

Both of those games you can slow down to the point where you can stop and think about everything. That's not going to help matters. She would need an action or platforming style game.

I'm not any kind of educational professional - hopefully some of the teachers we have here will weigh in on this but it sounds like an idea that may have merit. Video games do require quick thinking and problem solving and there are many out there that are suitable for a 9 year old. I'd be interested to see what those who actually know what they're talking about say!

In the meantime, good luck. You sound like an excellent, caring parent. :hug:

The boy is probably a genuine genius and your you're trying hard for him to be normal. Just because a child doesn't follow the norm, barring criminal behavior, is nothing to get excited about.

I'd get the child checked out!

What do you mean?

academically compatible?

There's a wide range of stuff on the website:

http://www.leapfrog.com

There should be a reading specialist in your district. They know what to look for and how to help.

Perhaps he feels stressed by the time/test factor; does your son exhibit test anxiety in general, and does he read for pleasure? If he doesn't read for pleasure,I suggest you find ways to nurture the idea of reading as fun. That may help to reduce anxiety (if he has it).

Comic books, sports or car magazines, any reading material related to his interests would be good. Don't worry about age level. It's only important that he doesn't feel pressured to read and then come up with an answer related to what he's just read. Slowly ease into dialoguing about what he's read, how he feels about it, what stuck with him. Don't quiz him on the facts of what he's read - ask him about his response to what he's read.

Unfortunately, due to budget cuts, those wonderful programs come to an end next year for him. No extra help after third grade.

His reading specialists also believe he has a processing disorder but can't really put their finger on what it is. They are stumped.

He loves to be read to...but does not like to read aloud to anyone. He enjoys magazines (sports, lego, fishing, etc).

at a local university? Those folks are quite savvy about unusual types of educational problems or learning disorders that the school folks might miss, or that don't meet their threshhold for the needed interventions. Those types of disorders can be very subtle and they can have different causes and solutions.

good luck!

Something that develops complex problem-solving skills, I mean.

** he was classified as "severe underachievement" in two areas**

Which areas were they?

First is some more general info on "discrepancies".

Then more on Processing speed which can be linked to many different LD's so it'd be important to hone in on which one(s).... at the bottom is a generalized Processing speed summation.


"The term "Severe Discrepancy" refers to one of the primary components of most State and/or local guidelines for determining if a student is eligible for special education services related to a specific learning disability. Although the real basis of a learning disability is an assumed information processing weakness, "severe discrepancy" between ability and achievement is the standard method used to determine how much impact the processing problem has on a student's actual achievement. "Discrepancy" is a measure of underachievement (the difference between ability and achievement) and "severe" refers to how much underachievement is required by a given State or district before a student will qualify for special education services. Each State establishes its own criteria for determining a severe discrepancy.

. . .
Basic Reading
Reading Comprehension
Math Calculation
Math Applications
Written Expression
Oral Expression
Listening Comprehension
Another thing to note about discrepancy calculations is that most States highly recommend (if not require) that a "global" or "Full Scale" IQ score be used when comparing a student's intellectual ability and achievement."

****

What is "Processing"? (excerpts from the LD self-advocacy manual)

Processing refers to how the brain takes in, uses, stores, retrieves, and expresses information.

There are many, maybe hundreds of ways in which the brain processes different kinds of information. But we will focus on six main types of processing that are believed to be most responsible for learning:

Visual Processing
Auditory Processing
Sequential/Rational Processing
Conceptual/Holistic Processing
Processing Speed
Attention

Clarification of the 6 general processing domains:

Visual Processing involves how well a student can use visual information. When they see something, especially something complex, do they understand it quickly and easily. Can they "visualize" things (like pictures, shapes, words, etc.) in their head? Can they remember information that they see?

Visual Processing includes:
seeing differences between things
remembering visual details
filling in missing parts in pictures
remembering general characteristics
visual-motor coordination
visualization and imagination
organization of their room, desk, etc.
art

Students with a general visual processing disability often experience most learning difficulty in the areas of math and spelling because they have trouble "visualizing" words, letters, symbols, etc.

Specific difficulties may include:

- writing
poor handwriting
poor spelling (cannot visualize the words)

- math
difficulty visualizing problems
difficulty with cluttered worksheets

- reading
slow speed
poor comprehension

- general
poor organization/planning/neatness
difficulty rechecking work for accuracy
difficulty learning by demonstration
difficulty learning by video


Auditory Processing involves how well a student can understand auditory information. Can they "keep up" when people talk very fast? Can they tell voices apart easily (even on the phone)? Can they imagine the voices of familiar people in their head? Can they remember information that they hear?

Auditory Processing includes:
hearing differences between sounds/voices
remembering specific words or numbers
remembering general sound patterns
understanding even when they miss some sounds
blending parts of words together
music

Students with a general auditory processing disability usually have most difficulty with general reading, general writing, and language (understanding and expressing). Specific difficulties may include:

- reading
poor decoding of new words
poor comprehension

- writing
poor spelling/mechanics
poor sentence structure

- communication
difficulty with expression
poor receptive language

- general
difficulty following oral directions
difficulty learning in lectures


Sequential/Rational processing appears to be the main filing system in the brain. It involves organizing and memorizing specific bits of information including facts, figures and formulas. This is very much like a computer organizes and stores information. How well does a student remember details (like names, addresses, facts, etc.)? How organized are they?


Sequential/Rational processing includes:

Short-term memory for details
long-term retrieval of details
fine-motor coordination
finding the words you want to say or write
organization of your thoughts and materials
writing mechanics (spelling, punctuation)
reading speed/sounding out new words
attention to details
putting words and thoughts in order

Students experiencing a general Sequential/Rational processing disability often have most learning difficulties in the areas of basic reading, math computation, expressive language, and writing mechanics. Specific difficulties may include:

- handwriting
speed/clarity
letter reversals
spelling/mechanics
letters in wrong sequence (order)

- reading
decoding (sounding out words)
speed/fluency
remembering details
attention/concentration

- math
remembering formulas/steps

- communication
finding words for verbal or written expression

- general
planning lengthy assignments
remembering details
paying attention - easily distracted by surroundings
remembering names of people or objects
following specific directions


Conceptual/Holistic processing involves looking for "the big picture", overall patterns and underlying concepts for use in higher-order thinking, creating, and reasoning. Conceptual/holistic filing is like throwing things into boxes with very general labels.


Conceptual/Holistic (right-brain) processing includes:

memory for general themes or ideas
reasoning
spatial awareness
general knowledge
inferential thinking
estimation/approximation
conceptual understanding
creativity/inventiveness
reading comprehension
use of context
rhythm
music
art


Students experiencing a general conceptual/holistic processing disability often perform quite well during early school years but later experience much difficulty with reading comprehension, math reasoning, and creative writing. Specific difficulties may include:

- reading
understanding irony, inferences, sarcasm
general comprehension

- math
generalizing to new situations
story problems

- written language
creative writing

- communication
general language comprehension
understanding humor

- general
global/general awareness
attention - may focus too much on a specific area


Processing Speed refers to how fast information travels through the brain. All LD students experience some processing speed difficulty when required to process information through their weakest processing "channel" or "modality". But for other LD students, a general weakness in processing speed causes difficulty in all processing areas.

It is like having the brain work at 40 miles per hour when the rest of the world (and all the information) is going 55 miles per hour. Such students just can't keep up.


Processing Speed affects:

short-term memory (with time pressure)
long-term retrieval (with time pressure)
talking speed, word-finding
writing speed
reading speed
attention
reasoning (with time pressure)
general response speed


Students experiencing a general Processing Speed disability often have learning difficulties in all academic areas due to their inability to process all types of information quickly. Specific difficulties may include:

- reading
reading speed
ability to stay focused while reading

- math
completing a series of problems

- written language
writing speed
mechanics
clarity (with time pressure)

- communication
delays in responding
slow, deliberate speech
word-finding difficulties

- general
coping with implied or expressed time pressures
always "a step behind"
difficulty maintaining attention to tasks
exceeding time limits during tests
trouble with social pressures to perform "faster"



Attentional skills refer to how well a student is able to stay focused on activities, especially in the classroom. A student's ability to maintain attention to tasks clearly impacts all types of learning and information processing to some extent. However, research and observations have found the highest correlation between attention and sequential/rational information processing. In fact, students with attention deficit disorders frequently demonstrate the same learning difficulties as students with sequential processing weakness.

Attentional skills include:

ability to stay focused on tasks
short-term memory for details
impulse control/coordination
word-finding skills
organization of thoughts and materials
writing mechanics (spelling, punctuation)
ability to stay focused on reading material
attention to details


Students experiencing general Attentional difficulties often have most learning problems in the areas of basic reading, math computation, expressive language, and writing mechanics because they aren't able to attend to the details of these areas. Specific difficulties may include:

- handwriting
speed/clarity
letter reversals
spelling/mechanics
letters in wrong sequence (order)

- reading
decoding (sounding out words)
speed/fluency - skipping words or lines
remembering details
attention/concentration

- math
remembering formulas/steps

- communication
finding words for verbal or written expression

- general
planning lengthy assignments
remembering details
paying attention - easily distracted by surroundings
remembering names of people or objects
following specific directions


****

Many very bright kids have these types of LD's. They seem to go hand in hand. The most important thing is to play to their strengths, and to help them understand what their areas of challenge are - then to either help them shore it up either with therapy or some type of accommodation(s).

Just a thought, but hsing makes a lot of sense for kids like this. They can learn at their own pace without the artificial time constraints. Accommodating their learning quirks is a heck of a lot easier and they don't feel so much like something is "wrong" with them! They can explore their areas of interest in much more breadth and depth. They aren't subjected to those nasty "timed tests" nor teaching/learning/examination formats that are anathemas to their learning styles.

Even though I am a trained elementary school teacher, I have 5 young kids under the age of 10 and I recognize my limitations.
I simply do NOT have the organizational skills to homeschool. Nor do I want to isolate my kids from the "rest of the world" so to speak.

surely you school 20-30 kids at a time! So how hard could just 5 be? LOL! People a LOT less intelligent than you (the freeps who hs) do it all the time. :rofl:

Also - some people DO just hs one. (Me, for example. :) )

FWIW - "Isolation" is a complete and total misconception! For the vast majority, hs kids get way more varied socialization than any ps kid does. How "socialized" is it to have to raise your hand to go to the bathroom? Silent lunch. No or limited and/or organized recess? Bells to change classes?

Ok - so you've heard about the fundies who hs who keep their kids in isolation, well, I'm here to tell you that there are plenty of liberal hs'ers and freethinkers, unschoolers, mensans, Buddhists, Pagan, Chinese, Gifted, LD, disabled, (most of those - not all - are actual hsing loops I'm a member of!)

Not only do hs kids have access to all the things that ps kids do - sports, dance, theater, skateboarding, hobbies, and other organized activites (like scouts and church - if you're into that sort of thing) there is more time to do them! In addition, there are co-ops and game days and play groups. With these, you get a wider variety of child - not just the +/- one year age thing, not just the homogenous kids from the neighborhood, not just the apprx 50/50 boy/girl split. Oh yeah, there is almost NO boy/girl *thing* - they tend to accept each other as FRIENDS on an equality basis. There is more tolerance and diversity of thought, dress, behaviour - and no "teasing" for choosing such, either.



At any rate, sorry to go on and on about the joys of hsing - I just know how difficult it is for a child with these types of problems to deal with the artificial pressures of PS. Just something to think about.

I hope the other information helps. www.ldonline.org is an excellent resource for LD information.

www.hoagiesgifted.org/ is not only for gifted, but has a section on gifted/ld.

Has the school done an IEP or 504 for your son yet? Wright's Law www.wrightslaw.com/ is an excellent place to go to find out your rights to accommodations.

Also, there is a gifted/ld group I'm on - one for the general population with a different one just for hs'ers. If you're interested in the first, let me know and I'll PM you a link.

I tutored a 11 year old boy and he loved Zoombinis. They're sort of cartoonish and young, but it makes a kid feel smart to go through the logic games. It's more about learning the process of figuring things out than memorization. It is about learning about the facts and triggering the right 'drawer' in your mental file cabinet.

Maybe too young for him, though. Maybe SimTown or the Sims?

I'm like that to this day. I can get the answers, but I am not fast and I have been known to complicate something because for me, it takes doing that just to understand it. Science kits helped me to do my little thing in a way that was less embarrassing, because with science, you are supposed to struggle and really search for all possible answers. Sounds to me like you have a struggling, frustrated scientist type kid on your hands and no one is recognizing it.

Timed tests are hell for me to this day as well. I can make straight A's as long as there are no timed tests. Timed tests are a guaranteed almost failure or complete failure for me. I am making a B in Precalculus Algebra because the tests are timed and it causes anxiety for me. This is after two solid years of making straight A's and making the college's President's List every semester. I cannot take a timed test without blowing it. I get too nervous. I need to know I have an answer right before I can turn the paper in. Knowing I don't have long enough makes me mess up more.

Wow. You nailed it.

I need to know I have an answer right before I can turn the paper in. Knowing I don't have long enough makes me mess up more.

How do I help him?

Please PM me if you can. I would love to talk with you about this. You may be able to help.

Thank you!

I've been a junior college instructor before going back for my PhD. Anatomy & physiology labs. I had a few students who took their midterm and final exams at different times than the rest of the class. These exams are usually timed - you get 2 minutes at each station to look at anatomical structures or slides, which would be murderous for some.

These students had letters from the Disabilities Office that required untimed tests. You might look into getting a similar exemption from the similar office on your campus. The similar office at your institution might also have resources that could help in other ways - you never know when they might have some sort of exercises that could assist you in quicker recall.

I hope this doesn't sound offensive or condescending; as someone involved in education, I really want to see all students do as well as they can.

I can usually do a great job on tests, but the timed ones do always get me. They never fail. I will look into the exercises. That is a resource I wasn't even aware of until you mentioned it. Thanks.

if your achievement is way below your expected achievement based upon your IQ. I would ensure that their explanation for not qualifying for special education is correct. One benefit of special ed is you can develop an individualized education plan which includes longer time for tests. This can even apply for SATs and other admissions tests.

I haven't looked at computer games for this age in about 10 years, but my kids liked math blaster and Carmen San Diego. I think they would help him speed up.

You also might do some research on his disability. Charles Schwaab has a foundation that used to have a great online library for parents. I even found a library (non-profit) dedicated to materials for parents. I don't know where you live but you might find something like that near you. I borrowed/rented videos and tapes from my local library. You also might find resources at an educational college. Perhaps, you could hire someone finishing studies who will specialize in the disability your son has. Good luck.

His IQ is supposedly 100. I believe that puts him squarely in the middle...which is more than good enough for me.

I just don't understand this whole IQ versus ability ratio.

I will look up Math Blaster. I appreciate your suggestions very much.

which a lot of schools use when trying to decide whether the child has a major disparity between IQ and achievement - often 2 grades behind or 15-30 point difference, (generally, not always) measured by standardized achievement tests. As a teacher or parent, you probably ran into this when working with your IST or other remediation team.

That is what a lot of schools can use to determine LD, but there is a lot of argument about whether that is the best way. There are lots of online sites that explain the discrepancy model.

do not.

They help hand-eye coordination while depriving your arms of useful work to keep them from atrophying... Trust me.

Has he been tested for any PDDs?

Thanks.

other than arriving at answers slowly.

Does he have difficulty reading? Are math concepts difficult for him? Has he been tested for dyslexia? Could he need glasses?

If he's not asking for video games, and hasn't as yet been exposed to their charms, I'm not sure I'd start there. I don't think there's anything wrong with them; I just think he'll better appreciate time spent in "therapy" with you.

My 7 year old's fine motor skills are his weak spot; and if I didn't homeschool him, dealing intensely with those issues, I suspect he would not thrive in a classroom setting. We're starting to see results, after a year and a half of patiently (and constantly!)reminding him how to hold his pencil and properly form letters and numbers. Even so, it's a slow, tedious process for him; and he's much happier writing stories on the computer than on paper.

Remind yourself that you know your son better than any teacher he's ever had. You know his likes and dislikes and what makes him tick. You can find games that he'll enjoy so much he won't know he's learning, especially if you play with him.

Several times actually. He is fine in that regard.

I can't home school him. I lack the time and the organizational skills to do so. I recognize my weaknesses in that regard.

I wasn't suggesting homeschooling, I was just offering my experience with what I think is a similar situation, in that my son is challenged in the fine-motor area. I find that working with him on this intensely has made a difference without making him feel negatively about himself.

Have his teachers suggested anything in particular? It seems like IQ should not be a factor in receiving special ed when a learning disability is keeping a child from reaching his potential. Given what you've said about his talents with Legos and understanding how things work, it sounds like he's a tactile/kinesthetic learner. What do you think?

Here's a little info: http://www.trcc.commnet.edu/ed_resources/tasc/Training/Tactile_Learning.htm

... a Final Fantasy game. Fast thinking in battle, but more strategy than button mashing. And lots of reading.

But *cough* I'm biased :)

I'd be interested in hearing more.

but I've known 9 year olds to play them. They're all role-playing games with really nice fantasy (or sometimes sci-fi) plot lines. Um... there's some written curse words in 7 and 8, some spoken curse words in 10 (which I wouldn't reccomend in your case anyways, since it lacks the timed battle system). No blood, no sex.

Most games (aside from Tactics, Tactics advance, and 10) have the ATB, active time battle system. That means that all the while your plotting your next attack, figuring out when to heal, etc, the monsters/enemies can keep attacking you, so you have to have speed and strategy. And before 10, there was no speaking, everything's written on the screen.

Video games are all about quick decision making and problem solving. I've been playing games all my life and I can say wholeheartedly that I'm a better thinker because of it.

First let me say I'm a gamer, have been since the old NES days and even played a bit on a C64. I still play them now as a parent and fully recommend them for some fun. Saying that though I don't think in this particular case your son would get much out of them at his age. He might improve his hand eye coordination but his reflexes don't seem to be the problem.

You sound like a great parent and I'd be worried that before you know it that hour you spend studying together has turned into 2 hours of playing games each night, and then your son pulls away from his fun of building, doing things outside etc.

Is part of the issue things such as rapid math problems, things of that nature? Gaming wont help that in my opinion. I think your just looking at flash cards and pounding away at it to build that quick connection.

9 years old is 3rd grade right? So I imagine he is starting in multiplication. I very distinctly remember taking my first multiplication test you know 2x2, 2x3 it was timed. I was one of the smartest kids in class but I got destroyed on this test, because of the timing. I was angry and mad and had a hurt ego so my mom starting working with multiplication flash cards, she had been a teacher herself and was relentless with them. After a lot of hard work I got faster and eventually was one of the fastest.

I just don't see how putting a 9 year old down in front of a TV with say Ratchet and Clank is going to improve his reading/math or other skills.

You could start out with just the basics and then move on to timed matches once he has mastered the basics.

He might be helped by learning a martial art. I've worked in summer programs with children about the age of your son and they we're very interested in both chess and martial arts. He would probably dig the meditative aspect of it, perhaps judo?

dx of 'severe underachievement'...ask for a 504 plan. A 504 plan allows you to ask for certain things to help your child...ie, preferred placement in class, longer time for tests, verbal tests if need be.

Your school system should be able to help with this.

There's a school of thought among educators that talks about multiple intelligences. Some kids do better with recall if information is presented in writing, or verbally, or in conjunction with some sort of physical activity.

I tend towards the latter myself. I've been involved in theatrical productions and I never fully get the lines down pat until the blocking (e.g., the movement that goes with the lines) is introduced.

With math, you might look into Chisanbop and see if that helps.

With respect to video games, I would very much avoid anything except games that involve problem-solving. Just your regular shoot-em-up video games only improve reflexes, and if your kid turns out to be very good at those, you might see a problem develop where he is even less willing to engage in schoolwork because he gets much more validation from the video game.

I've taken notes and have lots of leads to investigate.

I think I will be ordering MathBlaster for him, at least to start.

I appreciate the help.