Beautiful women and ugly men-WTF?

So I was at the doctor's office today, and saw a beautiful woman and a less-than-attractive guy (who were obviously dating) enter the waiting room.

I couldn't quite figure out what attracted her to him, barring wealth or pity. Maybe he had the greatest personality in the world or something, but I have to admit I envied him.

And I can't really attack his looks, since I'm no prize either, but this weird dichotomy I saw just blew my mind, particularly since this was in Los Angeles, not known for its attention to inner human qualities.

Anyway, just had to share.

And beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

My Husband isn't a "stud" by any standards, but he's good man and I love him dearly

:popcorn:

...eat your heart out.

He's so damned pretty.

:popcorn:

That someone could possibly date someone who wasn't attractive or at least as attractive as they are? I mean, you never see good looking men dating ugly women - they have more sense. :sarcasm:

:popcorn:

the chiseled GOD with the 200 lb chick with frizzy hair... and it wasn't me, either! :cry:

oh, and on edit, she was okay looking, but frankly not that cute in the face either. CERTAINLY not the hollywood standard.

because I've hardly ever seen it (once I think, in 36 years)

How often have you seen good looking men with not so good looking women? Just curious...

Even more rarely if "conventional" standards of beauty are tossed, like weight.

Don't know whether the shocked stares were because the man was a hottie or because he was a decade younger than me, but I found it rather thrilling, as did he.

(My secret? I'm very direct and don't play games.)

looking guys must rely on humor, kindness, mechanical aptitude, cooking ability, often better than average earning potential, and occasionally large amounts of cocaine......

But I can't afford cocaine. ;)

My lovely Yoga Teacher wife of over ten years liked that I could make her laugh as well as make her Dinner......

When we met, I was a Courier and Theatre Director, so no major income there.

My boyfriend and I have gotten The Look before--people trying to figure us out like that and whatnot.

Here's the deal:

We're good friends who have fun together, love each other, find one another attractive for more than just physical reasons, (though there's that too), laugh a lot together, respect each other, find each other interesting--hopefully you get the idea.

Next time we get The Look we're just going to start making out. I swear.

I'm a good person, too (mostly), and I never managed to do what this guy did. Of course, it might have to do with me having the personality of a box turtle, but that's another thread entirely.

Relax. Good things will come. :)

It's time to be someone else.

I mean, I understand having the thought but dwelling on it for more than a nanosecond doesn't do you any good.

And whether the man in question is a cash cow, or just a cow....

or simply speaking from limited life experience.

That is not to say all attractive women are gold diggers, just like not all rich men chase beauty queens. But it seems to be a cultural unwritten rule in our society that attractive women should marry a rich man. Many buck this trend but many do not...hence the observation Starbucks Anarchist made.

I could go into this deeper if you want...

however I generally figure a man has money if he is with a MUCH more attractive woman. That has been my experience at least.

men like that are pretty transparent, I've found. It's easy enough to weed them out.

Yeah, go deeper into it, if you want.

Rich men who accept women who are only attracted to them for their money get what they deserve. In fact, that sort of man LOOKS specifically for a vacuous attractive woman who will allow herself to be worn as an ornament on his sleeve.

On the other hand, men who immediately assume that an attractive woman is only after an unattractive man's money... well... those are the men that keep women down.

where lots of average to dorky looking but very intelligent men made lots of money. At the Christmas party I saw that they all had incredibly beautiful women on their arms. :shrug:

wallet :)

we were in the car, on our way downtown, when we pulled up to a light.
In the car next to us, a beautiful woman was in the passenger seat of a car being driven by a so-so looking guy, and my EX AND his best friend, who was in the back seat with his girlfriend, noticed and STARED AND STARED at that couple. It was embarrassing.
Then, when we pulled away, my EX said "Humph! He must be LOADED". It pissed me off.

Later that night after a few too many drinks, a guy in the bar was staring VERY pointedly at me, and my EX turned on him and snarled "WhatRyoulookinat".

I smiled sweetly at him and said "He must think you're RICH".

Needless to say, we never made it to the altar!

how uncomfortable I felt being stared at like that. :P

'cause I was stealin' yer hubcaps!



}(

just kidding :D

sense of humor or $ is your answer. i have a friend who is short and bald, and he has THE most gorgeous girlfriend EVAH. we're very close so i asked him what the secret is: humor. he's one of the funniest guys i have ever met. girls LOVE a sense of humor, i'm told, so work on those jokes and you TOO may walk into a doc's office with eyecandy on your arms.

or he could be loaded.

I'm always cracking jokes and making people laugh, especially women. Then again, maybe I should stop trying to make married women laugh. ;)

My husband hasn't a hair on his head, and I think it's the sexiest thing ever.

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In fact, as far as most guys go, I'm quite deep.

Who are you to judge this guy, or question who this woman chooses to spend her time with? Based solely on appearances, too.

Certainly doesn't merit a WTF... instead, ask yourself "what qualities do these people possess that attracts them to one another?" Maybe he has charisma, a lust for life, ambitions and enthusiasm. Or he just had the nerve to treat her like a human being.

I'll tell you what he almost assuredly DOESN'T do... and that's sit around whine about how the "hot women" don't go for him.

And I'm not judging this guy. In fact, I'm happy for him. I'm just pointing out the surface oddity of their relationship in a city that's based on surface appearance. That's not being superficial, that's being observant.

And maybe he was a whiner, maybe not. I have no idea what his personality is like, and neither do you.

why an attractive woman would date what you consider an ugly man. First of all, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. What is ugly to you can be beautiful to someone else. And second of all, it's really none of your business.

... of your answer, but the first is baloney. Science has studied the assessment of attractive in humans and it is pretty uniform.

I mean really, that sounds nice in theory but in practice we all know ugly when we see it. Otherwise, you'd be seeing fat women with mustaches on the cover of Cosmo, don't hold your breath.

was ugly, but my girl friends found him attractive. And vise versa. Granted, this is normally not the case, but it happens.
And considering the OP is a man, he is hardly a judge of what women would find attractive.

He was "ugly" in relation to her. She would rate a 9 or 10, while he seemed more like a 4 or 5. Generally, 9s and 10s are with similar people, just like 4s and 5s are.

And I'm not trying to insult him, though it may have come off like that. Personally, I'd rate myself as a 2 or 3, so there you go.

a woman who isn't shallow. Man, I hope that's the LA talking, and not you yourself.

LA, for some reason, seems to be the capital of self-centeredness.

Believe me, if my troll-looking self had a woman like that, I'd take her everywhere.

You're not obsessing on him, but you are obsessing on her.
Do you have any idea what her personality is like?
What does it mean to "have" a woman like that?

You're still making judgments based on appearance.

I noticed she was helping him out with the paperwork, not to mention all the signs of affection, etc., so it's not like she was a horrible person at first glance.

And maybe "have" was the wrong term, but you know what I mean.

You're a little young for a midlife crisis and the quest for a trophy wife/arm candy, aren't you?

Believe me, I've seen many physically attractive women in this city who had horrible personalities, which is a dealbreaker for me.

It's not just about physical appearance. Check one of my above posts regarding the woman's personality.

So, if you were dating an average looking woman with a great personality you'd leave her at home?

Well, as you've also indicated, I doubt it will be an issue anytime soon.

And don't act like nobody else does it, either. But as I said before, physical beauty/bad personality is a big no-no for me.

...i mean what else could it be????

work too!! :7

about "this big", perhaps?

on the black one's chest!

The impression I got from your post was that, if anything, it cheered you up seeing them, and it inspired you to start some light-hearted chit-chat. I'm glad you did. I'm always deeply grateful that women are so enigmatic with their favors, even though it would be just the "glad eye" - even just to be reminded of it by you.

Someone finally gets it. I guess my first post was written in haste, so the sentiment came off totally wrong.

:hi:

Pretty women out walking with gorillas down my street
From my window I'm staring while my coffee grows cold
Look over there! (Where?)
There's a lady that I used to know
She's married now, or engaged, or something, so I am told

Is she really going out with him?
Is she really gonna take him home tonight?
Is she really going out with him?
'Cause if my eyes don't deceive me,
There's something going wrong around here

Tonight's the night when I go to all the parties down my street
I wash my hair and I kid myself I look real smooth
Look over there! (Where?)
Here comes Jeanie with her new boyfriend
They say that looks don't count for much
If so, there goes your proof

etc etc(by Joe Jackson)

The more things change the more they stay the same. I wonder if people will ever look beyond the superficial?

I am ugly as homade shit, all scarred, and funny looking. Not only that i am a broke ass ex-con, but somehow i managed to garner 2 much younger beautiful ladies one 28, the other 24(i'm 38). I also have a surly disposition, and can be quiet grumpy. I only have an 8th grade formal education, so it ain't my brains either. You can also add i am disabled and often times have to have one of them help me to the bathroom, kitchen or out of the door.

I guess wonder of wonders, despite what many think there are a lot of wonderful women who don't fall in love for a man based on looks or money.

:hi:

Every night and thank the stars for what i have. Despite being ugly, broke, and ignorant i have always been lucky with the ladies. For me i think the original attraction is the outlaw factor, and extreme confidence when dealing with the women. It's true you know a lot of ladies love outlaws. I have also found one of the best ways to get a womans interest is to make her think you would not date her and are disinterested.

I have no confidence (which may explain things) and can't really fake disinterest.

Confidence is #1! Women like confident men. You also have to not worry about rejection. I have often had to proposition many women just to get a nibble. The whole idea is to keep on goin' till you find one that bites.

Just work on it bro, you can do it. And you don't really have to be an asshole about it. When i mentioned disintrest, acting like you don't care on way or the other whether they agree to go out is a big part of it. You have to learn to blow potential rejection off. ;)

nothing more obnoxious than a man who thinks he's all that

you have two women, you don't have all women

being mr. "i'm it" will turn off more than it gets, and i don't think it's a good idea to turn the Original Poster into yet another obnoxious arrogant male playa hitting on everyone he sees until he gets a nibble, there are too many already

sorry, dude, but that's my final answer

I stated i'm a broken down old ex-con with an 8th grade education. What in that statement says i think i am all that? Quiet the opposite in fact, i stated i was not "it" and i have always been some what successful any way.

Yes i have 2 women, i don't need all of them i have passed my quota thank you very much.

And despite what you might say it's a well known fact men who approach women with confidence have much more success than men who are not. I did not tell him to hit on every women he sees either. I stated he should not be afraid of rejection, and try, try, and try again till he succeeds. Which is what you have to do unless you like spending most of you time mate-less.

I'd also like you to show me where i said he should be obnoxious? I don't see it, it's not there. Your putting your own personal feelings into my words.

You generalize waaaaaay to much, your seeing things that are not there. Personal problems maybe?

"Sorry dude, thats my final answer"

Being an obnoxious arrogant male is TOTALLY not the same thing as a confident man. A confident man is somebody who is unafraid to be himself, quirks and all, someone who is OK with approaching a woman he likes (but not in that asshole I'm sure she's gonna like me way), and someone who is comfortable in his own skin.

Lightyears of difference between a playa and a confident man.

>someone who is comfortable in his own skin<

I love men who are self-assured. It's a hugely attractive quality. I want to talk to them because I want to find out what makes them tick.

Julie

women who have had boyfriends whose looks could be described as good or better (i.e there are no outstanding flaws, individual taste might vary on opinion of attractiveness) I used to live on a bus-route that was frequently ridden by an extremely obese woman (I doubt I could put my arms around her waist and my armspan is 5'10") who always wore huge purple sweatpants. One day my room-mate walks in and says "Hey JVS, you know that woman from the bus that wears the big purple pants?" "The big lady?" "Yeah. Rico and I were on the bus today and she was sitting up front talking to the driver. At one point she mentioned her boyfried. I'm shocked and disturbed by the idea that this boyfriend exists" I guess some people either have really good personalities, or some people have really low standards

Worse than the first post, really.

:eyes:

might be a 90-year-old toothless wino.

But what the hell does a 90 year old wino need a girlfriend for? A 90 year old wino needs one thing: wine.

to BUY the wine.... DUH!!!!

why don't we see the reverse as frequently?

And I doubt that it is any less frequent one way or the other.

Assuming we are talking about straight people, for every person out there who has a girlfriend there is another person who has a boyfriend. Unless we are to claim that one gender is particularly ugly, this implies that for every woman with an ugly boyfriend there is probably a man with an ugly girlfriend.

This isn't a math problem.

I don't know about where you live, the stuff you see every day, but around here, in my experience, there are exponentially more attractive man/homely woman relationships than the opposite.

Perhaps it's because of where I live or something, but I really strongly doubt that's the case.

more common, but I guess "exponentially more attractive man/homely woman relationships" means that the scenario the OP describes is the less frequeny case.

If I had to bet I'd say it's a 50-50 thing.

:hi:

BTW, this woman was at your standard of beauty. ;)

Whether it's 'my business' or not, I wonder about the lack of balance in these types of relationships more than anything else. (i.e. why don't I see as many good looking man/homely woman relationships)

The only reason I can think of is money. Clearly we as a society are still at the stage where men earn more than women in general. If that changed, perhaps good looking men would seek out the sugar mamas, and that would seem to provide some balance.

Heidii mentioned her situation with her husband. It seems like men are expected to date the most attractive person that they can get. I remember seeing an Ann Landers column about an attractive successful man who wanted to marry a woman that many considered below average, but was getting a lot of crap from his friends and family. An attractive man dating a woman who is considered unattractive must justify himself to a lot of people. A lot of men are weak to peer pressure. Even the more self confident ones might choose not to deal with that.
In my experience as a woman and with female friends, women rarely give each other crap about dating a less than attractive guy. On the rare occaisions that I have heard it, the other women tend to shut up as the relationship becomes more serious especially if the couple is happy.

imagine wondering what other blokes thought about a girl I was with. I don't put too much faith in anyone else's opinion about pretty much anything unless, it resonates with my world-view or way of thinking, no matter how much I respect and even look up to them in other regards.

of the couple is.

I'm not so naive as to think nobody would notice it in the first place--I probably would too--but to give it more than a passing thought just seems like a waste of time to me.

This is no exception.

I still don't think it makes it their business or that they need to spend time worrying about it though. I just don't see the point. But then, I suppose that never stopped anyone either.

I just happened to post about it after it happened. I doubt I'll be thinking about it later.

Have a good work shift.

I'm just confused.
Why is it your business what he spends his time "worrying" about, anymore than it's his business to worry about the couple? It seems to me that if it's none of his business to worry about an offsetting couple, it's none of your business to worry about what he spends his time thinking about.

Why is this such a big deal to you?

allowed to comment. I had an opinion and I gave it.

I hope I'm not coming across as though I'm trying to attack him though, because that wasn't my intent at all. If I had to label my intended tone of voice in this thread it would be calm yet bemused, I guess. And, if you read all of my posts you'll see that I've said that I can understand where the thought comes from and that we all do it from time to time, etc.

I suppose I could have not posted in the thread at all, but what would the point of a message board be then if I never have a conversation about subjects I find interesting or confusing or whatever it is? All I was getting at was that it's a waste of his time to spend more than a second worrying about it because in my opinion, all of this is subjective anyway, it won't make him feel any better, and who really cares who is with who. He said it was just a passing thought, I said that made sense, and that was the last I said about it.

If you hadn't replied to me, I wouldn't have posted in this thread again because I'm not spending all kinds of time worrying about it.

Does that make sense?

edit: I didn't think that was mean, either. Just an honest question, so no worries. :hi:

I didn't intend to imply that you were attacking, or that you shouldn't have posted a response. I just noticed that you had commented more than once in regards to the OP worrying so much/so long after the incident.

I know what you mean about caring who is with who; it shouldn't matter. But, in today's society, I guess it does; too often in my opinion.

I just understand that in some instances, especially LA, seeing a "mismatched" (to use a word that I don't think should apply here) couple does raise some eyebrows.

Ah, well, no worries. Like you said, we all do it, right or wrong. It's a never ending battle to let others' personal lives be theirs rather than try to make it our business.






:hi:

and I didn't mean to imply that you thought I was attacking him either. I just wanted to make it clear in general that that's not what I was going for. I guess I was just interested in the conversation because my relationship might garner (and has) some of these looks and questions. (And for the record, neither of us are rich either. :D )

Anyway, gald we're on the same page and a belated welcome to DU to you! :toast:

So I won't be able to post for eight hours or so, but I wonder where this thread will go in the meantime.

He has told me about how people react to him when they see me---

they think he married me because he 'had' to because of pregnancy (we've never been pregnant)

I must have been "hot" at one point, but let myself go

He felt bad for me

etc etc.

He says he feels uncomfortable showing people my picture NOT because he's ashamed of me, but because it's rather embarassing to get grilled EVERY TIME as to why we're married, why we've stayed together so long---actually, no. Why HE has stayed married to me for so long, why HE married me to begin with, why HE stays with me.

It's as if because I'm less-than-conventionally-attractive, and because my weight is greater-than-most-hollywood-starlets, I'm less of a person, I'm undeserving of love and happiness, that I have no feelings, and that I'm worthless as a person.

Ergo, because my husband is conventionally handsome/sexy, HE must have some kind of malfunctioning brain or penis to be not only with someone who LOOKS like me, but to actually LOVE me, LIKE me, and ENJOY me as a person. Especially for going on 9 years. Gee..what COULD his issue be.

Also, when I show people pictures of my husband, I get equally confused looks and comments: "Wow. He's Hot", then look at me like maybe he married me because i got pregnant. Or because he has a mental imbalance. Or because I'm rich (all of those are negative, by the way).

----

This isn't the first time a thread like this has appeared in the lounge. All the time it's hurtful because (along with the "He/She's HOT" and "Wow! What a fattie!" threads) it just solidifies the reality that we are how we look. It doesn't matter how nice of a person I am, how successful I am, how happy I am with life, I will ALWAYS be looked at as less of a person because I don't meet the cookie-cutter standards of beauty and body size.

And it decreases the...intimacy between my husband and I---how can I believe he's NOT lying when he tells me I'm beautiful and sexy just how I am, when 99% of the population nearly vomits in their mouth just seeing my face....they'd have a coronary if they saw me naked.

So, as time goes on and I get older, I try to get more comfortable in my outer skin, tell myself I'm a "beautiful person on the inside", but it's all for naught when I'm constantly reminded--in person, online, through my husband's co-workers that it doesn't matter HOW nice of a person you are, how GREAT your personality is--if you're a fat ugly dog, you're less of a person, the relationshiop with my husband should be looked at as an oddity rather than a reality, I'm not capable of loving someone and I'm certainly NOT WORTHY of being loved by others.

Oh, the plight of the ugly and or fat folks of the world. What WOULD we do without the perfect masses to remind us daily of our mortal imperfections and lack of human qualities....

----

Maybe the woman is dating him and not you because he's not the type of person that puts qualities to physical attractiveness. Maybe he's the first person she's met that didn't put her on a false pedastal because she had a timeless face and no wrinkles. Maybe he's the only guy that didn't make comments about her ugly sister, or fat mother. Or maybe he's a good person that treats her right and makes her happy.

But no...it's got to be something OUT OF THIS WORLD---ugly people have no right to happiness, ESPECIALLY happiness that comes from more beautiful people...since beautiful people are worth so much more in the world. How COULD that princess give that frog the time of day? Maybe she has a mental deficiency. Or is blind...those are the ONLY reasons, right? :eyes:

But in regards to the "ugly people/beautiful people" argument you put forth in your last paragraph, that's NOT what I'm saying nor is it what I'm about. As I mentioned before, I'm no prize either, and I also treat everyone equally, regardless of appearance.

I brought up the woman's appearance within the context of the relationship and within this city, NOT as a method of elevating her above less physically attractive people. And like I said, the guy's personality was harder to read, so I have no idea how he treats her, but I did notice that she seemed to treat him well.

But like I mentioned before, I have to get to work now, so I will check on these threads when I get back.

It seems like you're internalizing a lot of the negativity that some people associate with less conventionally good-looking people.

But the fact is, and you KNOW this -- it's all subjective.

This is not going to stop happening. People will always judge based on appearances first when able to do so. It's just how our brains work.

Perhaps you should stop reminding yourself how assholes think, and instead concentrate on believing your husband. It's very sad that you have a hard time doing that.

It's hard NOT to take the PLETHORA of comments and assides I've heard MY ENTIRE LIFE regarding my looks and my weight. I mean, it's not like I suddenly became "ugly" or "Fat" in the last 6 months.

In school, I was the laughing stock. No one dated me. It was a joke to suggest such a thing, and I was often the butt of jokes that centered around Hot or Popular Guy asking out Ugly Fat Girl for a joke for onlookers to laugh at.

Of course looks are subjective---but what the OP hinted at, and what others state outright to my husband is that there can be NO GOOD REASON why someone who has conventionally attractive looks to date/marry or find happiness with someone who is not only not conventionally attractive, but not physical attractive in any way. The OP even said something to the fact of "barring a great personality", etc, as if it is beyond the "hot" woman to find attractiveness in someone that 99% of the population finds disgusting.

Kind of like being fat.."oh, but you have a GREAT personality" or "You're REALLY good at the "little things""---as if someone who has above-average girth needs hollow platitudes from others to make themselves feel attractive or acceptable.

And it's hard to "stop reminding myself how assholes think" when EVERY FUCKING DAY I get a fucking comment from a fucking stranger about my looks. Or the size of my ass. Or a combination of the two of the. EVERY FUCKING DAY.

And no, I'm not bitter. I'm realistic. I know that 99% of people judge others on looks and weight. I'm clearly aware of this fact. My husband is aware of this fact. He's been uninvited from social gatherings when the "pretty people" realize that he's going to bring his fat ugly wife. And fat ugly people don't fit in the social circles of the beautiful and thin and perfect.

It's as if strangers feel it is their duty, their obligation to point out facts that I'm quite aware of. I know I'm fat--I don't need some douchebag at the beach to remind me of that as I lay in the sun. No, I'm not a beached whale. I'm a woman trying to enjoy a day at the beach. Thanks for ruining it. Oh, and I know I'm fat. I don't need you to remind me.

No, it's not Halloween. No, I'm not wearing a mask. I'm just a woman shopping at the grocery store, or trying on shoes, or driving my car. I suppose I shouldn't leave my house since I (and others in my situation) seem to be such a burden on the rest of society.

And I try very hard to please my husband. But much like the child who has been told every day of their life that they're stupid and worthless, it's hard to have sky-high self esteem when everyone arounds you (aside from one person) makes it a daily task of reminding you of what a stupid and worthless person you are, how you'll never amount to anything, how you should never have been born, etc.

When complete fucking STRANGERS make it their business to comment TO MY FACE (or purposefully audibly behind my back) how completley ugly I am, how disgustingly fat I am, it makes it really hard not to think otherwise. And when everyone has, and continues to pitty my poor, downtrodden, handsome husband for latching himself to a hag like me, it's hard NOT to internalize that maybe, just maybe HE is wrong, and everyone else is right. Maybe he DOES pitty me. I'm sure he doesn't, but popular opinion says otherwise. Maybe he DOES find me attractive, beautiful, sexy---but why is he the ONLY person I've heard that from IN MY ENTIRE FUCKING LIFE?

It's hard not to take personally or internalize the opinions that EVERYONE--minus one person (my husband) seems to hold about my face and my body size.

I was the same way in school. The second-ugliest girl in my freshman class (the boys ranked us and I saw the list).

You need to learn what to hang on to and what to let go of.

It's all so easy now. I just need to learn what to hang on to and what to let go of. Why, I'd never thought of that before!!! :eyes:

Seriously--I appreciate your input but believe it or not, it's easier written than done. I'm 29 years old. I've made every attempt to have a more positive outlook on myself. Just when I make strides, it's as if a tidal wave of public opinion comes along and pushes them away. I wish it were as easy as "letting go"---I suppose that would be way easier when society becomes more willing to not go out of their way to point out the flaws in others. I mean, I'm in nursing school---real great profession. Overheard a classmate and one of my instructors one day guffawing about what a "Shock" it would be to come out of a 10 year coma and I'm the first person they see--it would be like that episode of the Twilight Zone, or something.

It's hard. People are brutal. It's very easy to say not to internalize (and trust me--I've spent alot of money on otherwise good therapists who have told me the same thing---never any suggestions HOW to do it--just "not" to do it), but it's very hard not to internalize. I really have learned to stop paying attention to people---but I'm a human being with feelings and emotions--how can I *NOT* have my feelings hurt when people say cruel things? How can I NOT feel badly for my husband when he is questioned TIME and TIME again as to why someone like *HIM* would be with someone like *ME*.


IT's painful. It hurts. People are cruel even when they don't realize they are. Words hurt and yes, I know they're not sticks or stones. THey still hurt, though, even when the one being so cruel passes it off as "just a joke" or suggests that I'm "taking things too seriously"

I'm not faulting the OP in any way, even though I'm sure I seemed like I was in my first thread. However, being somewhat in the "ugly dood's" shoes, I know what "The look of astonishment" is. I know what people think about Hot/Ugly partnering. I know because people TELL me. They TELL my husband. These aren't assumptions on my part (how I wish they were!). The lower you are on the scale of "human beings people should care about," the more you're told TO YOUR FACE things that most people don't hear, or things that are said behind most people's back. Again, it's the notion that anyone who isn't drop-dead gorgeous, or a size-2 waist, or 5'11 tall has no feelings, has no emotions, has no right to be considered a human being, so it's okay if others are downright evil and insulting to our faces again and again and again and again. Why worry? They don't care about us...why should we care about ourselves?

As I tried to tell you, I've been there. I was chubby in school also, so on top of the ugly, that didn't make life any less painful. I ended up becoming bulemic because I was internalizing all the criticisms not only from peers, but also from my own fucking father.

It's up to you. I'm not saying it's easy, because it's not. I know people say ugly hurtful things, and yes it's going to hurt... but it should only hurt for a little while. It should only hurt long enough for you to realize that they're assholes and their opinions don't mean shit to you. You know who you are, and lucky for you, you have a loving husband to remind you why you are lovable.

I, like you, have spent thousands of dollars on therapists. Unfortunately, they were all pretty much useless. Sounds like they haven't done that much good for you, either. It wasn't until I realized that it was up to ME and ME alone to change ME, that I started enjoying being me. Good luck.

I WILL KICK THEIR ASS.

By the way Heddi, I think your are a BEAUTIFUL PERSON. So there!!!

I'm a sardonic and cynical person, but Heddi's posts in this thread have me near tears.
And, as always, you are right...she is a BEAUTIFUL PERSON

>I WILL KICK THEIR ASS.<

I'm with you.

By the way, Heddi, maybe others here can chime in. Everytime I have found myself in need of medical attention, the gentle and caring expression on the face of the nurse taking care of me was the only thing I cared about.

Julie

:hug:

>how can I believe he's NOT lying when he tells me I'm beautiful and sexy just how I am,<

He's not. He adores you. Just the way you are.

Julie

:hug: :thumbsup: :yourock:

I can feel the pain coming through in your posts and I just want to give you the hugest hug ever. I cannot, for the life of me, imagine why ANYBODY would feel compelled to make fun of you or put you down. What the fuck is wrong with people? I am not saying I don't believe you, though. I have seen rotten, inhuman people who mistreat others as you are describing and it is sickening.

I apologize on behalf of all these individuals. Their cruelty says more about them than it does about you.

:hug:

so many people act like thoughtless, indeed mindless, cruel schoolchildren.

I picked on other kids alot, especially the fat girls, primarily bc of my own insecurities since it was a little pick me up bc I was so down on myself

Believe me I regret it, not just for the hurt it caused but also bc of how small a person I was

I'm sorry

Heddi, I have never seen you and only know you through the words I've read - and I've read lots of your words - but I know you are beautiful. And I'm sorry you live in a world that doesn't know that too.

Oh, and I'm also available to help kick the asses of these idiots with the other poster down thread a bit.

with an s/o.

i didn't see her the way she saw herself and the way other people saw her.

it made no sense to me.

She was stunningly beautiful (she looked like French actress Emanuelle Béart)--enough to make men stop and gape at her. Yet she hated it, because when she tried to relate to men on a professional level or establish some kind of emotional rapport, she'd notice that they were just staring at her.

As a result, she sat home a lot when less stunning women were getting into relationships.

I later learned that she married a man who was older and overweight (I had met him briefly) and only middle class. I wonder if he was one of the few who was able to look past her physical beauty and see the essential person inside.

$$$$$

or, umm, special endowments

Or perhaps she just loves him?

really.
Maybe she likes ugly men.

I am not a visual person. I dated some very handsome men, but the simple fact that they were handsome never did much for me. My husband is ok looking (average I guess) and that doesn't make him any less attractive to me than a handsome man.

about how shallow i am

i think barring that he has this AMAZING personality ...a lot of this has to do with women being valued on looks and men on money/power...its sad really

It's standard behavior at DU.

"WHAT?! You do THAT?" (commence snap judgment and tiresome righteous indignation)

... and I'll go one further - all this crap about his "great personality" and "sense of humor", is nonsense also. Because she'd never get close enough to find out without some incentive.

I don't find this situation "sad", men like beauty for the same reason women like money/power, it's 100% biological.

she figured out he has great personality and wonderful sense of humor. To say that there is no way she would get close enough to an "ugly man" is ridiculous. And frankly, I saw many situations where someone good looking and a great person is attracted to someone who is ugly, and has a horrible personality. It happens. You know the saying "love is blind". Well, many times it is true.

.... most men can admit that they are attracted to beautiful women, but women will simply not fess up to what they are attracted to.

You believe whatever you want, the evidence of my belief is everywhere every day. 90% of the women driving $60K cars in Dallas are very attractive. 90% of the women you see driving beaters are not. Same thing for the malls. Go to the expensive malls, mostly attractive women, go to the suburban malls, not so much. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this stuff out. :)

but the other one is not. Not only that, the ugly partner has a nasty personality too. But they are in love. Why-beats me, but then it's not my problem. Love is blind. A good looking person can fall in love with someone ugly. Happens all the time.

... (that love is blind) there are exceptions to every rule. I'm talking about the center of the bell curve here :)

They earned their own money, and therefore can afford excellent cosmetic services.

Do you think it's kind of sexist to suggest that any lady in a nice car had to have a man buy it for her? Maybe those pretty gals you see in nice cars are educated with good jobs.

Good job = good cosmetologists at your service.

I'll admit what I'm attracted to. Right now. A guy with a decent attitude. I married one.

Women fess up to stuff like that all the time... what're you smoking?

And as for cars... that's because attractive people get better jobs, has nothing to do with men. Or do you think an attractive woman is incapable of buying her own nice car - so it must have been bought for her?

He didn't have any health insurance, which I overheard him tell the receptionist.

I married the "nice" working class bald guy. The incentive that prompted me to "get close enough" was the fact that he was a kind person.

See this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=4562348&mesg_id=4565369

You are so wrong it's not even funny. Your assumption that all women AND all men are that shallow is a swipe at the entire human race, both genders. I love my husband because he is a good person. I don't give a shit what he looks like, or how much money he has or doesn't have.

I make enough to support myself just fine.

I was attracted to my husband because he is kind and respectful. I continue to love him for the very same reason.

i know plenty of independently wealthy women who are never attracted to men for their money

i also know plenty of women who would never date someone unattractive cos they have money (me included)

It should give you the confidence to approach any women you find attractive, even those you might consider out of your league. After all, rejection gets easy after a while. Trust me on that one.

If she sees something in him that is a positive quality, more power to her. That's what lasting relationships are made of. Why should we be surprised when we see a couple like this? It's a good thing to see beyond looks.

Unfortunately, some fall victim to peer pressure. What can end up happenning in situations like these is that the woman ends up constantly being hit on by sleazeball guys who keep telling her "he ain't good enough for you, dump him" as if it's anyone's business, and friends that try and "help out" by saying the same things, and dropping subtle (and not so subtle) hints about his looks compared to hers. What's more, people who often are told by everyone how pretty they are become narcissistic, and start to need being told that on a regular basis. That just feeds the cycle, and they think in terms of people "being in their league" and the like.

People do think that pretty women "deserve" handsome men-as if there's any "deserving" about it, or any particular value beyond surface qualities. What real value do looks bring to a relationship? They fade anyway, that's the nature of things.

So it's encouraging to see people that break out of that mold. Preferred types of beauty are all in they eye of the beholder, and that's where they should stay.

I hope so.

Even some obnoxious personality traits can be overlooked when a man has linguistic skills.

n/t

You might not never know about his linguistic skills

:beer: B-)

:toast:

:shrug:

:wtf:

in fact, I can safely say that she seemed more or less completely turned off by it. My ex-wife (years before gf), however, responded VERY positively to it, so I got the impression I knew what I was doing - her response was always a huge turn-on to me! :evilgrin:

In all fairness, my ex-gf had childhood sexual abuse issues that she continues to try to deal with, which in turn has affected all aspects of her sexuality...

What is the world coming too!

on what basis did you decide that he didn't have money?

because rich ugly men who have money can wear shitty clothes and still get the girl

looking woman can still love him. Love is blind.

I heard him tell the receptionist that.

My uncle is a doctor and his practice is entirely people who pay cash for everything. He doesn't take insurance, it's cash and carry, thank you very much. The only reason to carry insurance is if you can't, or don't want to, pay cash for things you might need.

on the flip side, maybe he's a drummer?

So your theory didn't work this time. :)

EDIT: This is my 2,000th post! :toast: :bounce: :party:

no question.

and congratulations.

...eat your heart out.

well, not "with you" per se, but, ummm, I agree with your sentiments.

If you have, amy I refer you to the use of the phrase "you never know who'll get one" and its referent, regarding Billy Pilgrim?

Redstone

"...a tremendous Wang..." ?

:shrug:

still got his own hair. And lots of it. That alone counts for a lot.

A lot of bold men are very attractive. I just don't think Howard is ugly, but if he was bold, he would be very, very ugly.
:rofl:

will do it every time, no matter how beautiful the woman...

I see some nasty looking dudes around with hot girlfriends...makes me go :wtf:

It goes both ways. But if they are happy, WTF are we to judge?
And even if they are not happy, it's not our problem.

It helps to scratch the surface

Some guys are so tuned in to their eyes when they see a beautiful woman that they don't realize their ears have been shut the whole time.

Good job!

For you... :beer:

>Maybe he had the greatest personality in the world or something, but I have to admit I envied him.<

First of all, he approached her. Most guys won't approach a beautiful woman. Secondly, I'll bet he listens to her like she is the most fascinating woman he's ever met. He listened to her till she fell in love with him.

Julie

Now I don't think I'm beautiful, but I used to be a model, and the #1 complaint ALL us models had was how NO MEN would ever ask us out. We sat home alone or went out with GFs coz guys wouldn't approach us.

"Too intimidated" and "I knew you'd never say yes" is the most common answer if the men friends are asked as to why they never asked us out.

So looks become rather a secondary consideration when the only men who will dare approach a woman aren't Mr. Adonis; if they'll speak to a woman (rather than stare without even a hint of a smile) and listen to a woman, and treat a woman like a real live human being, then they're the men who get first dibbs and likely the woman.

HELLO MEN! Nuhin' ventured nuthin' laid, and all that.

:evilgrin:

:P

to wrench up the confidence to approach Unapproachable Woman, and she does seem to like and appreciate him for doing so and for being kind, respectful, attentive et al, he's still hyper-conscious of the feeling she's gonna ditch him the second Studly Greatbuns comes along.

Note that I'm not saying she will do this. I'm saying he's afraid she will.

Which takes us back to square one. :(

:rofl:

I dated him for awhile when I was young, and didn't know any better. He was an arrogant asshole who took great pleasure in pointing out my flaws by comparing me with other young women. He ended up hurting me, though I wasn't horribly sorry about it.

Several months ago, I found out he'd been convicted of child molestation. How lucky am I that this didn't work out? :-)

Self-confidance (not to be confused with arrogance) is sexy.

Stand before a mirror and say "I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and, doggone it, women like me"? :shrug:

And lotsa HUGS from friends is always helpful. :)

which is how it should be.

It might be a sin for most men to date a woman that isn't accepted as "hot" but most women actually look for a decent human being, not a generic, socially accepted "attractive" mannequin of a man.

Maybe she thought he was beautiful and that's really all that counts. Maybe he WAS beautiful, since beauty is not what's on the surface, but WHO the person is. Chances are, you didn't take the time to find out if he was a good man.

Hey, maybe he's actually FAITHFUL to her. Novel concept.

And like I said in previous posts, I didn't really get a good visual read on his personality, and since he was a total stranger, I have no idea whether he's a good guy or not.

I was placing this relationship in the context of this city's personality (Los Angeles), and the fact that this was the first couple I've seen here that didn't seem to mesh, physically speaking. I could see this couple together in NYC or even a small town, for example, but not here. That's what struck me as odd about the relationship.

BTW, I guess I fall into that minority of guys who doesn't go for socially accepted female mannequins.

I have heard people ask this question before, and it always makes me sad, because it implies that someone who does not fit the current norm of attractiveness doesn't deserve to be loved, or maybe just that it's hard to understand WHY they would be, especially if their mate DOES fit the current idea of what is attractive.

I know a lot of beautiful women who are married to, or dating men who wouldn't be considered "Hollywood hunks." I think a lot of women have found that these "attractive" men typically are self-centered idiots who have mastered the fine art of mistreating women because "they can."

A man who treats a woman with respect, and is faithful to her, is far more desirable and valuable than one who has good looks and little else.

And no it is NOT the money. Rich men who buy womens' affections are just as bad as the so called "good looking" jerks who mistreat women. Usually, if it's their looks or money that attract women they don't put forth much effort to actually be a decent person. This is not to imply all moneyed or handsome men are jerks, but many are.

Perhaps the man you mentioned was the first one this beautiful lady ever encountered who did not cheat on her or slap her around. Maybe he loves her and is kind and respectful to her. No matter what he looks like, that's worth keeping.

I think I kind of saw myself in that guy (except for the woman he was with, obviously). I'm not the cheating kind, and I always strive to treat people nicely, just like we assume about this particular guy.

I'm apparently considered very attractive. That's what people say. I have never thought so, but whatever. I have had all sorts of men come at me with the lamest pick-up lines, the stupidest come-ons, and the most ridiculous false promises and overinflated egos you could ever imagine. While my friends were all swooning over these wanna-be Lotharios, and saying how "hot" they were, I was horrified by what I saw as an obvious disrespect for women, and a vibe that made my skin crawl.

I pretty much swore off men in my mid twenties, because I really was just disgusted at how many of them thought that bleached teeth, imposing height, a sports car, or a fat wallet were acceptable substitutes for respect, love, and dependability. Just when I accepted that single-hood would be a life-long choice for me, I met the most beautiful creature I had ever laid eyes on.

He was 5'10, 230 pounds, a little soft in the middle, and had not a hair on his head. CUE BALD.
He had a job, but was by no means Donald Trump.

He was intelligent, funny, warm, and the very first man I ever met who did not forget I was there whenever a set of tits went by. He was respectable, and respectFUL. He was loyal, and compassionate. He loved animals and children, and had lovely blue eyes, which never wandered.

He asked me to marry him two months after our first date.

Five months after that, we were honeymooning in Hawaii.

That was five years ago. I cannot imagine my life without him in it.

He is the most beautiful human being I have ever seen, and in the event anyone were to look at us, and not see that, I'd correct them quickly. Anyone who would look at us and say "what is that attractive woman doing with that chunky bald guy?" would be instructed by me to open their eyes and look again - clearly, he is the beautiful one, and I am the lucky one. I happen to appreciate a man with a little meat on his bones, and a shiny pate. I'm pretty big on the way he treats me too. :-)
Don't let our superficial and misguided society convince you that beauty = worthiness.

It doesn't.

Unless the beauty we're talking about is the kind that comes from within.

I hope that happens to me someday -- well, with a woman and without the marriage part -- but that's a great story, Vektor.

I'd also like to apologize on behalf of the "lotharios," with their lame approach and overall style. Even as a guy myself, I can't stand that kind of behavior.

BTW, I remember seeing your pic. You are definitely attractive on the outside, and going by your posts (and membership on DU in and of itself), you seem to have great inner beauty as well.

:hi:

I was pretty down on marriage too, and not really interested in ever doing it.

Then this bizarre thing happened. After spending several weekends with my then boyfriend, I realized that when I left to go home and start my work week, it felt "wrong" for us not to be together.

He also said that after I'd go home, he felt the same way - that we belonged together, in the same house, married... When I wasn't there, his house felt empty.

I had never felt this way about anyone before...I'm pretty independent, and I like "my space." It turns out, we really were made for each other and belonged together.

Cheesy and corny, yeah, but it turned out to be the right decision.

Of course just prior to meeting him, I was totally NOT interested in ever getting married.

It's not so much the staying together I have a problem with. In fact, a long relationship would be great. I just have this aversion to signing "contracts."

Stupid, I know, but that's just one of my quirks.

I was mainly REALLY excited about designing my own dress, and having my big bald Soprano looking hubby wear a zoot suit. We had a swing jazz band play, and we had gooood times. It was like a mobster wedding.

The contract part was worth it, because the zoot suit was SO bad-ass. :-)

Sounds like it was fun. :)

BTW, I never thought this thread would be so big. I posted right after the incident, thinking it would get maybe 10 responses at most. Now it's closing in on 150 posts with two recommendations, unusual for the Lounge. :)

The movie industry is only one of them, though outsiders think that is all LA is about. Aerospace actually, or at least used to, employ many more people. Showbiz has its own visual standards, but the rest of this massive city is more normal in it's values.

And in showbiz, if the ugly man is a powerful producer, he will have women all over him. Particularly in this industry, one can't tell power by how people dress, because they dress down.

I heard him tell the receptionist he didn't have any health insurance.

Almost ALL of them have the King of Queens syndrome: portly, jowly, balding Joe Sportsbar . . . paired with a curvaceous or slender M.I.L.F. WAY outta his league.

This is why I wouldn't let myself go like that. My wife does yoga and has a great body (although she doesn't think she does), why would it be fair to her if I got all pot-bellied and nasty? I'd be just like the everyman's fantasy in those commercials. Hell no, I'm staying hyper and slim as I approach 40.

"How come Brian is kind of goofy looking, and he gets laid and we don't?" (they were all lifeguards, sharing a beach house, and all had reasonably decent bodies, but Brian got the girls, and they didn't).

So we told him - Brian listens, when you're talking he'll say things that indicated that he actually listened to you. He has a way of just focusing in on you, but not in a creepy/stalker kind of way. Plus he seems interested in you as a person, and not you as a potential lay. (Of course the way I had met Brian was that he had bitten me on the butt at a party, I didn't find out about the listening skills until later, but that's another story...)

:hi:

Not sure how it would work on anyone over voting age

:evilgrin:

There's hope out there for us Average Joe's. ;-)

...each person is attracted to whatever they are attracted to. The funny thing is, it might take some getting to know the person to really even know what they are attracted to. Just because someone is "attractive" (to you) it doesn't mean that attractiveness in a mate is important to them. Maybe they just want someone who can make them laugh? Maybe they want someone who would do anything for them? Maybe they want someone who believes in the same god that they do?

I think the best we can do in this life is to decide what it is that is important to us! After we figure that out, we can go searching for that person and see how many out there are looking for the qualities that we have.

For me, my 20 year old g/f who is a beautiful girl, liberal, stoner, loves to spend every minute with me, always positive about life, my best friend, and great in bed.... she's everything I ever wanted. I can sit here all day and try to figure out why she likes me in spite of my "problems" (divorced, OCD, mood swings, cynical outlook, hairy lol, etc etc...) but all I can come up with is that we like what we like.

Sums it up well. :thumbsup:

...but you have re-assured me.

I hate these "What do women like?" "What do men like?" "Why do women do X" "Why do men do Y" questions. Because for every single theoretical answer you could give, there are so many exceptions there's no good reason to make a generalization at all, because it's not illuminating or helpful in any way.

looks like this:

http://usrarecurrency.com/WebPgFl/AE77665544B/Final1996$100SnAE77665544B.jpg

In fact, a man who is too handsome can easily become spoiled.

Given a choice between a less-than-hunky man with a genuinely kind (not a passive-aggressive "will you love me if I do this for you" attitude) heart, wide-ranging intelligence, dependability, a sense of humor, and wicked glints in his eyes, and a self-centered, dimwitted, flaky, self-important Baywatch Ken doll, I'll take the less-than-hunk every time.

A lot of men just don't get this. Back in the 1980s, one of my male colleagues wondered why Jill Eikenberry had married Michael Tucker (Remember LA Law?), when he was shorter than her, pudgy, and nothing great to look at. And I said, "Because he has the sweetest smile."

And my colleague just couldn't wrap his head around the idea that a genuinely sweet disposition could be a turn-on.

I think we attract what we put out. If you are confident, and feel good about yourself you are going to atract a mate that is confident and feels good about themselves. We are like tuning forks....like people of like frequencies attract, and it doesn't matter if one is less desirable looking than the other.

A person that drives a nice car, dresses nice, has a nice figure, and is groomed nicely is a person that likes theirself and cares about how they look. A person that dresses shabby and appears un-kept is not forced to look that way because of society or anything outside of themselves....people project themselves the way they feel about themselves.

The woman was well-dressed, etc., and seemed to project confidence, while the guy was the total opposite.

Accept the fact that some things just happen. There might not be a logical explanation.
She loves him because she just does. There doesn't have to be a logical reason for it.

Can't help it. :)

:P

I'm a troglodyte, but LeftyMom seems to dig me. She's pretty hot.

It's all about the voodoo.

in the "fat guys don't get hot chicks" vein. I never found him fat, more "plesantly round" . And yes, he was balding-so he shaved his head. Shaved head and gotee-c'mon ladies, that's nice!!
I won't mention where most of his hair actually was. But I almost took that kind of thinking personally. Like as a good looking woman I was dating "below" myself somehow. No he did not have money, or nice things-he was just himself and I loved him
So I was looked at funny for dating him, and he was "da man" for dating me. How does that work?

on edit: he did have a KILLER Dublin accent.

He had young, gorgeous girls going for his swollen, middle-aged body all the time. And he marries two of them on the show. I always found that part of the show totally UNbelievable. I think it took away from the grittiness of the rest of the show.

It looked fairly gritty to me. :shrug:

I don't think it's so unbelievable when you consider he's a cop. I've known a couple women who were habitual cop chasers.

But yeah, they should have hired my tubby, fiftyish mom to be his luv interest. She had a huge crush on him.

And I've always thought he was homely.

And I've always thought she was weird.

really turned them on. In light of such gifts, they were willing to overlook his appearance.

He also had a lousy personality. How could they resist?

I've had relationships with men whose looks put mine to shame and men who wren't that great looking. I can't say it matters that much to me, one way or the other.

Of course that's really easy to say while salivating over my mental picture of my current bf, who is fucking hot. ;)

If they're happy, who cares which one's better looking? I suppose it's probably a good thing that the guy's the less attractive one, a girl'd probably get a complex in such a looks oriented society on the arm of a much better lookng guy.

Overweight, not great looking, and going to be a teacher. Guess I'm alone for life

thin model-like wives.

I just DONT buy it! There's that Jim character, the king of queens, etc.

Excuse me, but these guys should have a Roseanne Connor for a wife!

Then there's the "beauty and the geek" type shows -- boring, boring, boring. Now if they had a mating show with ALL geeks-- women as well as men-- now THAT would be interesting. No, instead its just geeky men and their wet dreams.

My personality is kind of bland, too. Quiet, laid back, easy going, don't always show many emotions...

yet, my ex-wife had a figure that would make a Hooters girl jealous and huge blue eyes and a face somewhat like Kate Winslett.

and my wife now is way better looking than my first wife.

:toast:

that while I think I do ok in the bedroom, I don't think I'm going to win any prizes there...

MONEY MAKES THE WORLD GO ROUND THE WORLD GO ROUND THE WORLD GO ROUND

Just kidding.

I think that women, who are judged by their looks all the time, often figure out that it isn't about looks.

Besides, if you give your love sincerely to a sweet man who thinks you are too beautiful to ever be with a guy like him, he might treat you like a queen. :-)