Double Standards

Women love to point out the old sexual double standard where if a woman sleeps around she's a slut. But if a guy sleeps around he's a stud. However even some women prize a guy who's in demand. If someone has a lot of potential suitors they're looked on as being more desirable. I've seen normally polite women threatening each other physically over guys known to be able to have their pick of the harem.

However there's also the double standard with regards to behavior with men. If I were to go up to a woman and talk suggestively to her I'd expect at the very least to get my face slapped. That same woman could view the same thing from someone else as being highly erotic. Oh she may slap his face and get angry. But she just as easily could throw him her room key. I know I speak in generalities here but I've seen this happen with my own eyes. For some reason certain men are simply expected to behave like this and are rewarded for this behavior.

Is there some kind of social role we're forced into? And if we step out of that role even for an instant is that when people get upset and uncomfortable? Two people get angry about something at work. One is looked on as being irrational and not in control of his emotions. The other is looked on as displaying great leadership qualities. A guy asks a long time friend for a fwb relationship she gets offended. If someone else asks her the same question her panties get moist. Now I can understand not being sexually compatible. But why is one guy's touch cold and heartless while another's is thrilling and electrifying? How many women must be approached before a woman sees some guys as something other than the eternal "friend?"

I have no answers for you.....

Just this...:hug:

I wasn't just talking about romance, just life in general.

the double standards and i dislike it/them intensely.

the sweet, witty, intelligent man is going to catch my eye any day of the week, over a perceived rude, somewhat obnoxious, aggressive man.

me personally, i look at every single person as an individual. the actions of one don't dictate my opinion/s of another.

women and men are free to sleep around (consenting adults...yada yada yada)

your examples apply to women too, you know.

i am seen as the nice, safe one...and because of that i am a "friend"

Women have to deal with this too. It does suck big time to be the shoulder to cry on and nothing more. No more being the rescuer for me. Had a bad bf? Sucks but I wouldn't have done what he did to ya. (Speaking figuratively)

it won't always be this way. you will find a girl who'll appreciate you for being what others are not: YOU. :hug:

:hug:

Thing is people always say that kind of thing. Gee, how long does someone have to wait? I'm 49.
I don't mean to sound down because I'm really not. I've got a "friend" who could be more than that but like every other woman I've known she's been worked over by a less than desirable partner. I'm just not going to be a rescuer anymore.

Its a sexual harassment training video. The guest that week was some football player. They had a series of events like having a dorky looking guy innocently ask a woman to lunch and she would immediately pick up the phone to report him for sexual harassment. Then the hot football player would ask the same woman to go back to his place for a quick screw and she said yes. The tagline announcer said something like, "see the difference. the second man was good looking."

But yeah, that's how it is. If a woman is attracted to a guy its fine, but someone she doesn't find attractive can do the exact same thing and its harassment. Typically, I wait for a pretty obvious sign before I approach a woman, but that also means I get a lot less action than men who don't respect women at all but get lots of action because they are good looking enough to pull it off. Such is life.

For example the male is always supposed to be the aggressor--if I had waited for girls to call me and ask me out in high school, I'd probably have graduated with a scarlet v on my forehead. Of course girls often drop hints to the point of outright vulgarity, but there's a certain line few are comfortable with crossing--putting oneself out for rejection isn't easy, but it's usually the guy's job.

Chemistry. When I was taking organic chem it dawned on me that atoms and people are similar. There were people in my life that I was very compatible with and some I wasn't.

It doesn't mean there was anything wrong with the ones I wasn't as fond of because other people found them far more compatible than they found me.

I know that sounds weird but I found it freeing.

My husband is my eternal friend, we started out as friends, we have tons in common and as it turned out he does things to my chemistry that no other person has ever done. It took a while but it happened. There are women out there praying everyday for a NICE male companion/lover. Don't give up just go places you love going, there are women who are waiting for you. They know you're out there somewhere. (as the moody blues song goes) You just haven't come along for them yet.

and if, it's true for both sides, not only for men. I've seen it working everywhere, and it doesn't stop at your gender. And I won't be able to give you any answer you can hold on to, because there are none; there's no step-by-step program where you have to do this to earn that. Life seems to be a bit more edgy, and what is mirrored if we gaze into our own reflection might be right for us but not for anybody else.

I was the 'eternal' friend to many; and even there was no 'touching' ever, even when the point was reached where you could think that this would be next and would be most natural, it was full of deep intimate moments; full of talk, laughter, anything. Sometimes it was more close than to actually have a physical relationship. It was more honest then, and everything else would have taken away the honest part of it. Perhaps this picture helps a bit: I saw many come and go; come as moisturizing heroes and go into dry oblivion. I was still there. Would I have changed with them? No.

It's not about roles and shouldn't be. And it's not about generalization, and it won't help you settling on this point of view. The touch is not cold and heartless just because we don't end up with them between tossed around sheets while our skins smell the same. It's not that the other one's touch really is electrifying and thrilling. It's not. It just seems like in the moment you might observe it. It might wane the next month, and it might end up where you, as the friend, are approached to lend the shoulder. If this saddens you with somewhat of a hammering thought in your mind like 'If she only chose me, she would be happy, because I would not have done that to her,' it is not what she ever thought of. Some times we're chosen being friends, sometimes we're chosen being lovers, and we gave the same amount of grief away that we feel in retrospective. I'm sure about this. It works both ways.

There's a main question, and I agree, it's a mean one. But if you ask 'How many women must be approached before a woman sees some guys as something other than the eternal "friend?",' then it's your choice to be either an eternal friend or have the doubt of just being the next boyfriend (after the one who hurt her, remember?)

I am sure you will find what you are looking for. It takes a great amount of time sometimes, and not all of us are in for quick luck.

"It was more honest then, and everything else would have taken away the honest part of it. Perhaps this picture helps a bit: I saw many come and go; come as moisturizing heroes and go into dry oblivion. I was still there. Would I have changed with them? No."

Having a romantic relationship with them could've ended your friendship as it does many times. It's all in how you both see your relationship. But being chosen friends and sometimes chosen lovers? The only times I've been chosen as a lover is after a woman has had a hurtful relationship with someone else. I'm through with being the shoulder to cry on. I need to be with someone who's at least healed from her wounds.
Exactly how much time? I've waited a long long time already.

I, as a woman, also wants a man who has healed from his wounds.

You have so many great qualities...kindness, generousity, humour, intelligence, passion...that are using against yourself.

The 'rescuer' pattern seems to keep on repeating itself. Or is it even that? Is it "I can't do any better, so I have to take seconds?" or "the only time I can get a woman is when her guard is down, when she's so emotionally vulnerable?"

Look deep down. At what you're doing. At what you want. At who you are chosing. Please get that Darwinian crap out of your head. If that were true, we'd all be perfect, because the imperfects wouldn't have bred on, so to speak.

You have so much going for you. You need to heal, and recognize your worth.

Have you even considered moving? If you're in a smaller town/city, perhaps there's slim pickings, or the thinking is quite...conservative. I've lived in smaller places where relationships added drama to the boredom of the place.

I'll just add...none of the men I've had relationships with, or dated, were conventionally "good looking". I have a hard time naming any male movie star I find attractive. Not every woman wants the best looking, or the richest, or most powerful. A person is the sum of the whole, not just their facade.

The money may abate, the looks fade, the job may be downsized; the spirit will stay.

What you say makes a lot of sense.

"The 'rescuer' pattern seems to keep on repeating itself. Or is it even that? Is it "I can't do any better, so I have to take seconds?" or "the only time I can get a woman is when her guard is down, when she's so emotionally vulnerable?"

I think it's the latter.


"Have you even considered moving? If you're in a smaller town/city, perhaps there's slim pickings, or the thinking is quite...conservative. I've lived in smaller places where relationships added drama to the boredom of the place."

Yes that's a real possibility. I live in a small, old town. Old in terms of age of a large part of the population.


I do get down on myself way too much. It's just hard to stay upbeat all the time when all you hear is no. I know others shouldn't affect one's view of their self-worth but still....

getting down about your situation is different than getting down on yourself.

I hope you learn to separate the two. It is difficult, and something I have struggled with, too. :hug:

But it's hard somedays.
Thing is I don't even know how to attract someone who isn't needing of rescue. It's something I've never experienced.
Healing........how do you do that?
:hug:

Is a friendship that's not worth risking for something more worth having in the first place?

Be honest, with yourself and with the person you desire. If you don't let it be known you want more, you likely won't get more. If they run and blow you off, what kind of person is that, that you would want them to be your friend?

No one wants to be the kind of person who says, 'if I can't get what I want I'm going to take my marbles and go home.' But sometimes you have to be prepared to do just that.

The feeling of settling has come across me oh let's say once or twice. And the self-defeating behavior is what's the killer. It only reinforces this warped idea that this is the best I can do.

Women love to point out the old sexual double standard where if a woman sleeps around she's a slut. We've talked in great length about the communities where being called a slut is a complement. But if a guy sleeps around he's a stud. That's not always true. In a recent PM among some of my friends I got a bit wOOt in response to my term *womanizingmanslut*. I certainly didn't intend it as a complement. The man is a psychic vampire = gathering strength from the flattering attention of the ones they prey on. However even some women prize a guy who's in demand. I've often had problems with other women wanting my newest flame while they hardly noticed him before I taught him to smile again. If someone has a lot of potential suitors they're looked on as being more desirable. *note* if he is more interested in having a harem - I want nothing to do with him. I'm far too insecure to share the man I share my bed with.I've seen normally polite women threatening each other physically over guys known to be able to have their pick of the harem. I've seen that too in both sexes, it really is pointless!

However there's also the double standard with regards to behavior with men. If I were to go up to a woman and talk suggestively to her I'd expect at the very least to get my face slapped. That same woman could view the same thing from someone else as being highly erotic. Oh she may slap his face and get angry. But she just as easily could throw him her room key. I know I speak in generalities here but I've seen this happen with my own eyes. For some reason certain men are simply expected to behave like this and are rewarded for this behavior. But not by a woman who has self respect.

A guy asks a long time friend for a fwb relationship she gets offended. duh If someone else asks her the same question her panties get moist. But why is one guy's touch cold and heartless while another's is thrilling and electrifying? I'm sorry to say this but very often it's only pheromones. The heady intoxicating effect can wear off if that's all there is.How many women must be approached before a woman sees some guys as something other than the eternal "friend?" As many as it takes to find the right person. Don't give up on seeking happiness bushwentawol.

You are really amazing! :pals:

Thank you gf ! :yourock:

If you find that women are treating you like the eternal "friend", it's because you tend to gravitate towards women who do that, for one reason or another.

I used to tend to gravitate towards men who are ultra-fantastic and could have their pick of women because a)it was a challenge, and how awesome would I be if I can win over a guy like that (I do suffer from megalomania), and b)If a guy like that noticed me, it meant I was special. I'd take the "friend" role because I hoped I could win them over and eventually they'd realize how great I was for them. Did I end up with any of them? No.

I think there's a lot to be said for chemistry and the luck of it all, but if you find that "all" men or "all" women are one way in your relationships...there's a reason for that.

I have opinions about all men OUTSIDE my relationships now, LOL!

I was 38 when I married. I had spent a lot of time up to that point looking and trying to find someone. Once I stopped and became content with my life just the way it was, my someone found me.

I seriously think it's because when we are looking, we give off that "needy and hunting" vibe. I can look back now and know that I was until I decided to take life as it was and do what I enjoyed doing and not tailoring my likes to the latest guy to cross my path.

Be yourself, do the things you enjoy, be content with who you are and where you are in the journey.

so that this doesn't slip down into the archives before tomorrow.

:)

:joanikick: to cover you as you requested

You have to punch your weight dude. If you get the "let's be friends" speech often I'm guessing you're trying to pick up women who are too good-looking for you. I just happened to get really lucky with my girlfriend :evilgrin: but for the most part you should try to date women who are on the same good-looking level that you are.

it wasnt pretty,

however i think its very true

And the cynic in me says well if someone won't like me until I lose 80 lbs are they liking me for the true me or as someone who doesn't disgust them anymore?

"If a good looking person smiles at you,
you think 'he must be nice'
if an ugly person smiles at you,
you think 'what does he want?'"

There are certain benefits that the social status
of being either wealthy or good looking confer on
people. But I usually employ the same double standard
myself with regard to good looking women. So who am I
to point fingers?

However I'll add that there's also an element of chemistry involved... not just looks.

But you can't say when you'll meet someone where that connection exists. I've just never met a beautiful woman interested in me. Then again maybe it was just me telling myself that a beautiful woman is out of my league. But there's gotta be that chemistry regardless of how a couple compares in physical beauty.

if it ain't happenin, it ain't happenin.

but it still seems like those of similar levels gravitate to each other. But I'm not concerned about that as much as just finding someone compatible.

its most evident where women have some economic freedom (cos then your dependability and economic prowess is no longer important)

i freely admit to shallowness.

but you can't force someone to be sexually attracted to another. It's either there or it's not.

this stuff the same way as you, telling myself that it's no use or the feeling that it will never happen. But I realize that like attracts like, physically yeah but moreso emotionally. That's where the problem is.

You're my friend, bushwentawol, but I've been thinking about this post for a couple of days, and wanted to give you my take on it. Please bear in mind that I haven't even finished my first cup of coffee, OK? :hug:

Women love to point out the old sexual double standard where if a woman sleeps around she's a slut.
That's not true of all women. Other people's sexual behavior is, for the most part, no one else's business. Other people's sexuality is _their own_, and it only becomes my business if it impacts my relationship or rises to the level of public health crisis.

But if a guy sleeps around he's a stud.
I'm not sure what you mean by "sleeps around." Where individuals are concerned, it's none of my business. As a general practice, I do have an opinion, and it's a genderless one: people's sexuality is their own, and even in relationships, we leave ourselves open to a world of hurt if we imagine we can or should control another person's sexuality. Monogamy works for Call Me Wesley and me, because we agreed from the beginning that we wanted a monogamous relationship. I wouldn't dream of imposing our agreement on other couples, though. Monogamy isn't for every relationship, or every individual. :shrug:

However even some women prize a guy who's in demand.If someone has a lot of potential suitors they're looked on as being more desirable.
Sounds like a marketing theory for a product I wouldn't buy.

I've seen normally polite women threatening each other physically over guys known to be able to have their pick of the harem.
I've sen that, too, just as I've seen otherwise polite men fighting over women. I've never met a person of either gender worth fighting over. In my views, that scenario is dysfunctional to the point of being cartoonish.

However there's also the double standard with regards to behavior with men. If I were to go up to a woman and talk suggestively to her I'd expect at the very least to get my face slapped.
Are we so far gone as a culture that words are met with physical assault? Really? Without exception, I can't think of a time in my life when I haven't been able to defuse an uncomfortable with situation with either A) words; or B) walking away.

That same woman could view the same thing from someone else as being highly erotic. Oh she may slap his face and get angry.
Depends on the context of the situation, rather than the gender of the people involved.

Oh she may slap his face and get angry. But she just as easily could throw him her room key. I know I speak in generalities here but I've seen this happen with my own eyes.
I've seen it, too, and I'm not even going to get started here on the cultural dynamics that I believe feed this sort of thing. A lot of people of both genders need to read "The Cindrella Complex."

For some reason certain men are simply expected to behave like this and are rewarded for this behavior.
In my early adulthood, meeting other people's expectations too often was an excuse for not being self-actualized enough to live my _own_ life, and take responsibility for my life decisions. I'd say that's a valid excuse for a child or a teenager, but for me as an adult, it was an excuse, not a real reason.

Is there some kind of social role we're forced into?
As children, I believe we can be forced into social roles. But as adults, we most often accept those roles because they're what we know: they feel easier and more comfortable.

And if we step out of that role even for an instant is that when people get upset and uncomfortable?
One of the great paradoxes of life is that even as we're all connected, we remain individuals. There will _always_ be someone who's upset or uncomfortable, and there is a balance between intentionally pissing people off and allowing them to take responsibility for their reactions.

Two people get angry about something at work. One is looked on as being irrational and not in control of his emotions. The other is looked on as displaying great leadership qualities.
I don't understand this hypothetical situation. In any workplace, you're going to have all kinds of people. In every work situation I've ever been in, there were people with both greater and less leadership ability than me. And over the course of my professional life, I probably was perceived (correctly) at times as not being in control of my emotions. Hopefully, all of us grow and change over the course of our careers. :shrug:

A guy asks a long time friend for a fwb relationship she gets offended.
Every individual's sexuality is his or her own. Being a person's long-time friend doesn't entitle one to a friends-with-benefits arrangement.

If someone else asks her the same question her panties get moist.
Preferences vary. No doubt, there's a deeper and more complex reason for the differences in reaction, but that doesn't change the core message, "No, thanks." For example, how I react to a "No" says much about my character than it says about the person who said, "No." Do I pitch a fit? Do I immediately end the friendship? Do I obsess about it? Do I allow one "No" to undermine my self-esteem? Do I look at the "No" in the context of the friendship, and understand that "No" is every bit as valid an answer as "Yes"? Do I appreciate that friend for his/her honesty?

Now I can understand not being sexually compatible. But why is one guy's touch cold and heartless while another's is thrilling and electrifying?
That's one of the mysteries of life, isn't it? I'm not being flip here. I'm pretty sre there's a very good, evolution-based reason why we women (generally speaking) don't experience _every_ man's touch as thrilling an electrifying? Do you, as a man, experience every _woman's_ presence as thrilling and electrifying?

How many women must be approached before a woman sees some guys as something other than the eternal "friend?"
I dunno, my friend, but if you're going through women like we're standing in a receiving line until you find the one who'll agree to a fwb relationship, it's probably going to be an awfully long line. I think there's an awful lot to be said for "eternal friends." If Universe is giving you a long parade of eternal friends right now, maybe you ought to entertain the notion that your heart needs eternal friends right now more than "friends with benefits." Just an idea.

I'll shut up now and go get some more coffee. And popcorn. ;)

:hug:

I don't disagree with what you say. And my fixation with fwb's and sex stems from wanting a close relationship with someone. But I realize that pissing and moaning here only serves to highlight my neediness right now. I know like attracts like, and that's the reason I'm attracting who I am in relationships. I'm a loner by nature but I still have this need to reach out to someone. I can't shake this feeling of life passing me by. I know I deserve much more in life than to beat myself up. And I'm trying to change that. But I've been looking for external validation, which is wrong. And yet it would be so nice for even a little victory, something to energize me to carry on.

:hug:

:hug: :pals:

My greatest victory when I was feeling as you feel now was learning how to take care of my mind, body and spirit. It's _only_ because of this that Call Me Wesley was, and is, a choice, rather than a need. I personally believe that, in adult relationships, being _chosen_ is a greater honor than being _needed_. You deserve that sense of accomplishment, my friend. :hug:

But I've never been, only needed. And I've just gotten to the point of asking myself when the hell is it going to be my turn?

You know you can. :hug:

Feel better about myself so I attract what I want? But how?

:hi:

:hi: