Discuss: Bob Dylan's "Subterranian Homesick Blues" is the first rap song.

Listen to it.
A case could be made, I think.
"Don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows."

OK...THE WHOLE THING< WITH CHORDS

A A
Johnny's in the basement mixin' up the medicine,
I'm on the pavement, thinkin' 'bout the government
The man in a trenchcoat badge (??) got laid off,
Says he's got a bad cough, wants to get it paid off
D D
Look out kid, theres something you did,
A
God knows when, but you're doin' it again.
You better duck down the alleyway, lookin' for a new friend.
E
The man in the 'coonskin cap in a pigpen
A
Wants 11 dollar bills, you only got 10.

Maggie calls fleetfoot (??) face full 'o black soot,
Talking at the heat, put (??) plants in the bed, but (??)
The phones tapped anyway, Maggie says the man he say,
They must bust in early May, orders from the DA.
Look out kid, don't matter what ch' ya did,
Walk on your tiptoes, don't tie no bows
Better stay away from those 'ho carry 'round a fire hose.
Keep a clean nose, 'n wash of plain clothes,
You don't need a weather man to know which way the wind blows.

Uhh..Get sick, get well, hang around the inkwell,
Hang bail, hot tail, if anything its gonna sell,
Try hard, get bought, get back, write braille,
Get jail, jump bail, join the army if ya fail.
Look out kid, your gonna get hit, by
Losers, cheaters, six time users, hangin' round the theaters,
Girl by the whrilpool's lookin' for a new fool,
Don't follow leaders or watch the parkin' meters.

Ohh..Get born, keep warm, short pants, romance,
Learn to dance, get dressed, get blessed, try to be a success,
Please her, please him, buy 'er gifts, don't steal, don't lift
Twenty years o' schoolin' and they put ya on the day shift,
Look out kid, they keep it all hid,
Better jump down a manhole, light yourself a candle,
Don't wear sandles, and try to force a scandal,
Don't want to be a bum, you'd better chew gum,
The pump don't work cuz the vandals took the handle.

Call Me Wesley and I were discussing this very thing during the DU Rap Wars following this year's Academy Awards. :thumbsup:

It has elements of rap, but I wouldn't go as far as saying it is the first rap song.

there was this whole 'nother genre called talking blues. In form it was a I-IV-V chord change with an AABB (rhyme scheme) verse intoned, not really sung, over it, and then there'd be a part where the performer could make some comment or joke about the verse subject, completely out of rhythm.

Like the more familiar versions of the blues, it owed a lot to black performance practices. A good example might be Fats Waller's "Your Feet's Too Big."

Dylan himself recorded several of them, including "Talking World War Three Blues" and "Bob Dylan's 115th Dream." It was a useful form for the protest era; there are also several good ones on Phil Ochs' first couple albums. "Subterranean Homesick Blues" is, I contend, an adaptation of that idea into the more hair-trigger verbal assault Dylan was getting into. So it's not so much the first rap as the first punk rock.

that by a pretty good number of years.

Back in Nineteen Twenty-Seven,
I had a little farm and I called that heaven.
Well, the prices up and the rain come down,
And I hauled my crops all into town --
I got the money, bought clothes and groceries,
Fed the kids, and raised a family.

Rain quit and the wind got high,
And the black ol' dust storm filled the sky.
And I swapped my farm for a Ford machine,
And I poured it full of this gas-i-line --
And I started, rockin' an' a-rollin',
Over the mountains, out towards the old Peach Bowl.

Way up yonder on a mountain road,
I had a hot motor and a heavy load,
I's a-goin' pretty fast, there wasn't even stoppin',
A-bouncin' up and down, like popcorn poppin' --
Had a breakdown, sort of a nervous bustdown of some kind,
There was a feller there, a mechanic feller,
Said it was en-gine trouble.

Way up yonder on a mountain curve,
It's way up yonder in the piney wood,
An' I give that rollin' Ford a shove,
An' I's a-gonna coast as far as I could --
Commence coastin', pickin' up speed,
Was a hairpin turn, I didn't make it.

Man alive, I'm a-tellin' you,
The fiddles and the guitars really flew.
That Ford took off like a flying squirrel
An' it flew halfway around the world --
Scattered wives and childrens
All over the side of that mountain.

We got out to the West Coast broke,
So dad-gum hungry I thought I'd croak,
An' I bummed up a spud or two,
An' my wife fixed up a tater stew --
We poured the kids full of it,
Mighty thin stew, though,
You could read a magazine right through it.
Always have figured
That if it'd been just a little bit thinner,
Some of these here politicians
Coulda seen through it.

When I was a delinquency worker, I used to tell the kids I worked with that. They would just stare at me and say "What? Who?".

I also ask all kids named Dylan "Bob or Thomas?"

The first songs I remember being called "rap" were that stupid one by Blondie about eating cars or whatever, and the cover of "Walk This Way".

Some think it's "Rapture" from Blondie

Maybe it's "Desiderata" performed by Les Crane

I figure the reference to Talkin' Blues is probably spot on

Of course, priests of various religions have been talking in rhythm over music for millenia

very funny. now, go to a large music library, um say the library of congress and dig up any recording with the word "talking" in its title. you might pick up some Jimmie Rogers tunes, peruse your local blues section and check out some of the really old recordins. Son House would be a good start. Ad far as Dylan, um Talkin NY Blues predates Subterainian and is funnier.

I'm wondering if you are aware of this Rolling Stone interview with Neil Young "Forever Young" early 90s...

"...As for rap, the bane of many of his peers' musical existence, Young practically jumps out of his chair with enthusiasm. "I love rap!" he declares with a sparkle in those familiar, piercing eyes, professing a particular fondness for Ice-T. "It's speaking to the people on the streets. It's a whole new way of communicating that's so open to saying exactly what the hell's on people's minds in a clever way, a way that you can listen to and move your body to. Similar to, like, 'Subterranean Homesick Blues.' Dylan is early rap. What the hell's the difference?" To those who resist rap's charms, he adds, "This is the shit that's going to keep music alive - don't close it off because you don't understand it."... "



whole feature here:
http://www.angelfire.com/rock2/traces/pages/foreveryoung.html

Heard it a couple of years ago for the first time in ages and thought "that's rap!"

"Year of the Guru" by Eric Burdon.
Dylan's tune was close, but Burdon's song had more of a rap style to it.

But I think the case is weak for it being literally "the first rap song."

But you have to be a Dylan freak to realize it.

go way back...

it's certainly in the framework, though.

Cab Callaway is probably the person who popularized "talking blues" back in the thirties and forties. They actually called it "scat" back then, but it is still the same basic concept, speaking the lyrics out over the music. Mel Torme and many others were also scat singers through the years.

Dylan just picked up on this style, and modified it for his own use. Later on, the Sugar Hill Gang got the modern rap movement going with "Rapper's Delight" back in 1979, though there had been an underground rap scene going on the coasts for a number of years, Rapper's Delight made it big, and took the genre mainstream.

Scat is nonsense vocalese used for various sound and percussive effects, not words with an intent to tell a story.

Scat is also the use of lyrics and words, indeed to tell a story, spoken or semi-sung. And rap does indeed employ "nonsense vocalese" etc. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scat_singing>

For instance, let's take the lyrics of that iconic scat song by Cab Calloway, "Minnie the Moocher"

Minnie The Moocher
Cab Calloway

Hey folks here's the story 'bout Minnie the
Moocher
She was a low-down Hoochie Koocher

She was the roughest toughest frail
But Minnie had a heart as big as a whale

Hidey Hidey Hidey Hi
(Hidey Hidey Hidey Hi)
Hodey odey odey oh
(Hodey odey odey oh)
Heedey Heedey Heedey Hee
(Heedey Heedey Heedey Hee)
Hidey Hidey Hidey Ho
(Hidey Hidey Hidey Ho)

She messed around with a bloke named smokey
She loved him though he was cokey

He took her down to Chinatown
And showed her how to kick the gong around

Hidey Hidey Hidey Hi
(Hidey Hidey Hidey Hi)
Whooooooooaaaap!
(Whooooooooaaaap!)
Heedey Heedey Heedey Hee
(Heedey Heedey Heedey Hee)
Hidey Hidey Hidey Ho
(Hidey Hidey Hidey Ho)

She had a dream about the King of Sweden
He gave her things that she was needin'
He gave her a home built of gold and steel
A diamond car with the platinum wheels

-----

He gave her is townhouse and his racin' horses
Each meal she ate was a dozen courses
Had a million dollars worth of nickels and dimes
She sat around and counted them a million times

-----

Poor Min'
Poor Min'
Poor Min'....

Now, let's compare it to that iconic rap song, Rapper's Delight

Rapper's Dellight
Sugarhill Gang

I said a hip hop the hippie the hippie
to the hip hip hop, a you dont stop
the rock it to the bang bang boogie say up jumped the boogie
to the rhythm of the boogie, the beat

Now what you hear is not a test--i'm rappin to the beat
and me, the groove, and my friends are gonna try to move your feet
see i am wonder Mike and i like to say hello
to the black, to the white, the red, and the brown, the purple and yellow
but first i gotta bang bang the boogie to the boogie
say up jump the boogie to the bang bang boogie
let's rock, you dont stop
rock the riddle that will make your body rock
Well so far youve heard my voice but i brought two friends along
and next on the Mike is my man Hank
come on, Hank, sing that song

Check it out, i'm the c-a-s-an-the-o-v-a
and the rest is f-l-y
ya see i go by the code of the doctor of the mix
and these reasons i'll tell ya why
ya see i'm six foot one and i'm tons of fun
and i dress to a t
ya see i got more clothes than muhammad ali and i dress so viciously
i got bodyguards, i got two big cars
that definitely aint the wack
i got a lincoln continental and a sunroof cadillac
so after school, i take a dip in the pool
which really is on the wall
i got a color tv so i can see
the knicks play basketball
hear me talkin bout checkbooks, credit cards
more money than a sucker could ever spend
but i wouldnt give a sucker or a bum from the rucker
not a dime til i made it again
everybody go hotel motel whatcha gonna do today (say what)
ya say im gonna get a fly girl gonna get some spankin
drive off in a def oj
everybody go, hotel motel holiday inn
say if your girl starts actin up, then you take her friend
master gee, am I mellow
its on you so what you gonna do

Well it's on n on n on on n on
the beat dont stop until the break of dawn
i said m-a-s, t-e-r, a g with a double e
i said i go by the unforgettable name
of the man they call the master gee
well, my name is known all over the world
by all the foxy ladies and the pretty girls
i'm goin down in history
as the baddest rapper there could ever be
now i'm feelin the highs and ya feelin the lows
the beat starts gettin into your toes
ya start poppin ya fingers and stompin your feet
and movin your body while youre sittin in your seat
and the damn ya start doin the freak
i said damn, right outta your seat
then ya throw your hands high in the air
ya rockin to the rhythm, shake your derriere
ya rockin to the beat without a care
with the sureshot m.c.s for the affair
now, im not as tall as the rest of the gang
but i rap to the beat just the same
i dot a little face and a pair of brown eyes
all i'm here to do ladies is hypnotize
singin on n n on n on n on
the beat dont stop until the break of dawn
singin on n n on n on on n on
like a hot buttered a pop da pop da pop dibbie dibbie
pop da pop pop ya dont dare stop
come alive yall gimme what ya got
i guess by now you can take a hunch
and find that i am the baby of the bunch
'but that's okay i still keep in stride
cause all i'm here to do is just wiggle your behind
singin on n n on n on n on
the beat dont stop until the break of dawn
singin on n n on n on on n on
rock rock yall throw it on the floor
im gonna freak ya here im gonna feak ya there
im gonna move you outta this atmosphere
cause im one of a kind and ill shock your mind
ill put t-t-tickets in your behind
i said 1-2-3-4, come on girls get on the floor
a-come alive, yall a-gimme what ya got
cause im guaranteed to make you rock
i said 1-2-3-4 tell me wonder mike what are you waitin for?

i said a hip hop the hippie to the hippie
the hip hip hop, a you dont stop
the rock it to the bang bang boogie say up jumped the boogie
to the rhythm of the boogie, the beat
skiddlee beebop a we rock a scoobie doo
and guess what america we love you
cause ya rock and ya roll with so much soul
you could rock till you're a hundred and one years old
i dont mean to brag i dont mean to boast
but we like hot butter on our breakfast toast
rock it up baby bubbah
baby bubbah to the boogie da bang bang da boogie
to the beat beat, its so unique
come on everybody and dance to the beat

I said a hip hop the hippie the hippie
to the hip hip hop, a you dont stop
rock it out baby bubbah to the boogie da bang bang
the boogie to the boogie da beat
I said i cant wait til the end of the week
when i'm rappin to the rhythm of a groovy beat
and attempt to raise your body heat
just blow your mind so that you cant speak
and do a thing but a rock and shuffle your feet
and let it change up to a dance called the freak
and when ya finally do come in to your rhythmic beat
rest a little while so ya dont get weak
i know a man named Hank
he has more rhymes than a serious bank
so come on Hank sing that song
to the rhythm of the boogie da bang bang da bong

Well, im imp the dimp the ladies pimp
the women fight for my delight
but im the grandmaster with the three mcs
that shock the house for the young ladies
and when you come inside, into the front
you do the freak, spank, and do the bump
and when the sucker mcs try to prove a point
we're treacherous trio, we're the serious joint
a from sun to sun and from day to day
i sit down and write a brand new rhyme
because they say that miracles never cease
i've created a devastating masterpiece
i'm gonna rock the Mike til you cant resist
everybody, i say it goes like this
well i was comin home late one dark afternoon
a reporter stopped me for a interview
she said she's heard stories and she's heard fables
that i'm vicious on the Mike and the turntables
this young reporter i did adore
so i rocked a vicious rhyme like i never did before
she said damn fly guy im in love with you
the casanova legend must have been true
i said by the way baby what's your name
said i go by the name of Lois Lane
and you could be my boyfiend you surely can
just let me quit my boyfriend called superman
i said he's a fairy i do suppoose
flyin through the air in pantyhose
he may be very sexy or even cute
but he looks like a sucker in a blue and red suit
i said you need a man who's got finesse
and his whole name across his chest
he may be able to fly all through the night
but can he rock a party til the early light?
he cant satisfy you with his little worm
but i can bust you out with my super sperm
i go do it, i go do it, i go do it, do it , do it
an i'm here an i'm there i'm big bang Hank, i'm everywhere
just throw your hands up in the air
and party hardy like you just dont care
let's do it dont stop yall a tick a tock yall you dont stop
go hotel motel what you gonna do today(say what)
im gonna get a fly girl gonna get some spank drive off in a def oj
everybody go hotel motel holiday inn
you say if your girl starts actin up then you take her friend
i say skip, dive, what can i say
i cant fit em all inside my oj
so i just take half and bust them out
i give the rest to master gee so he could shock the house

It was twelve o'clock one friday night
i was rockin to the beat and feelin all right
everybody was dancin on the floor
doin all the things they never did before
and then this fly fly girl with a sexy lean
she came into the bar, she came into the scene
as she traveled deeper inside the room
all the fellas checked out her white sasoons
she came up to the table, looked into my eyes
then she turned around and shook her behind
so i said to myself, its time for me to release
my vicious rhyme i call my masterpiece
and now people in the house this is just for you
a little rap to make you boogaloo
now the group ya hear is called phase two
and let me tell ya somethin we're a helluva crew
once a week we're on the street
just a-cuttin' the jams and making it free
for you to party ya got to have the movies
so we'll get right down and give you the groove
for you to dance you gotta get hype
so we'll get right down for you tonight
now the system's on and the girls are there
ya definitely have a rockin affair
but let me tell ya somethin there's still one fact
that to have a party ya got to have a rap
so when the party's over you're makin it home
and tryin to sleep before the break of dawn
and while ya sleepin ya start to dream
and thinkin how ya danced on the disco scene
my name appears in your mind
yeah, a name you know that was right on time
it was phase two just a doin a do
rockin ya down cause ya know we could
to the rhythm of the beat that makes ya freak
come alive girls get on your feet
to the rhythm of the beat to the beat the beat
to the double beat beat that it makes ya freak
to the rhythm of the beat that says ya go on
on n on into the break of dawn
now i got a man comin on right now
he's guaranteed to throw down
he goes by the name of wonder Mike
come on wonder Mike do what ya like

like a can of beer that's sweeter than honey
like a millionaire that has no money
like a rainy day that is not wet
like a gamblin fiend that does not bet
like dracula with out his fangs
like the boogie to the boogie without the boogie bang
like collard greens that dont taste good
like a tree that's not made out of wood
like goin up and not comin down
is just like the beat without the sound no sound
to the beat beat, ya do the freak
everybody just rock and dance to the beat
have you ever went over a friends house to eat
and the food just aint no good
i mean the macaroni's soggy the peas are mushed
and the chicken tastes like wood
so you try to play it off like you think you can
by sayin that youre full
and then your friend says momma he's just being polite
he aint finished uh uh that's bull
so your heart starts pumpin and you think of a lie
and you say that you already ate
and your friend says man there's plenty of food
so you pile some more on your plate
while the stinky foods steamin your mind starts to dreamin
of the moment that it's time to leave
and then you look at your plate and your chickens slowly rottin
into something that looks like cheese
oh so you say that's it i got to leave this place
i dont care what these people think
im just sittin here makin myself nauseous
with this ugly food that stinks
so you bust out the door while its still closed
still sick from the food you ate
and then you run to the store for quick relief
from a bottle of kaopectate
and then you call your friend two weeks later
to see how he has been
and he says i understand about the food
baby bubbah but we're still friends
with a hip hop the hippie to the hippie
the hip hip a hop a you dont stop the rockin
to the bang bang boogie
say up jump the boogie to the rhythm of the boogie the beat
i say hank can ya rock
can ya rock to the rhythm that just dont stop
can ya hip me to the shoobie doo
i said come on make the make the people move

I go to the halls and then ring the bell
because i am the man with the clientele
and if ya ask me why i rock so well
a big bang, i got clientele
and from the time i was only six years old
i never forgot what i was told
it was the best advice that i ever had
it came from my wise dear old dad
he said sit down punk i wanna talk to you
and dont say a word until i'm through
now there's a time to laugh a time to cry
a time to live and a time to die
a time to break and a time to chill
to act civilized or act real ill
but whatever ya do in your lifetime
ya never let a mc steal your rhyme
so from sixty six til this very day
ill always remember what he had to say
so when the sucker mcs try to chump my style
i let them know that i'm versatile
i got style finesse and a little black book
that's filled with rhymes and i know you wanna look
but there's a thing that separates you from me
and that's called originality
because my rhymes are on from what you heard
i didnt even bite and not a god d--m word
and i say a little more later on tonight
so the sucker mc's can bite all night
a tick a tock yall a beat beat yall
a lets rock yall ya dont stop
ya go hotel motel whatcha gonna do today (say what)
ya say im gonna get a fly girl gonna get some spankin
drive off in a def oj
everybody go hotel motel holiday inn
ya say if your girl starts actin up then you take her friends
a like that yall to the beat yall
beat beat yall ya dont stop
a master gee am I mellow?
its on you so whatcha gonna do

Well like johnny carson on the late show
a like frankie croker in stereo
well like the barkay's singin holy ghost
the sounds to throw down they're played the most
its like my man captain sky
whose name he earned with his super sperm
we rock and we dont stop
get off yall im here to give you whatcha got
to the beat that it makes you freak
and come alive girl get on your feet
a like a perry mason without a case
like farrah fawcett without her face
like the barkays on the mike
like gettin right down for you tonight
like movin your body so ya dont know how
right to the rhythm and throw down
like comin alive to the master gee
the brother who rocks so viciously
i said the age of one my life begun
at the age of two i was doin the do
at the age of three it was you and me
rockin to the sounds of the master gee
at the age of four i was on the floor
givin all the freaks what they bargained for
at the age of five i didnt take no jive
with the master gee its all the way live
at the age of six i was a pickin up sticks
rappin to the beat my stick was fixed
at the age of seven i was rockin in heaven dontcha know i went off
i got right on down to the beat you see
gettin right on down makin all the girls
just take of their clothes to the beat the beat
to the double beat beat that makes you freak
at the age of eight i was really great
cause every night you see i had a date
at the age of nine i was right on time
cause every night i had a party rhyme
goin on n n on n on on n on
the beat dont stop until the break of dawn
a sayin on n n on n on on n on...
like a hot buttered de pop de pop de pop
a saying on n n on n on on n on
cause i'm a helluva man when i'm on the mike
i am the definate feast delight
cause i'm a helluva man when i'm on the mike
i am the definate feast delight
come to the master gee you see
the brother who rocks so viciously

Note that both employ words and nonsense sounds together. And both tell a story. Clearly an influence that has been passed down the musical generations. In fact, I read somewhere long ago that Sugarhill Gang were inspired initially by the old scat singers.

Everything old is new again:shrug:

If anyone wants to see an as early as you can see it performance check out the film International House from 1933.

It's a bizarre film but has a complete performance of Cab Calloway doing That Reefer Man and yes it is about what you think it is about.

Available on DVD too.

To go back and check out some of the older vocalists, and see what they're singing about. Explicit references to dope, coke, heroin, all that stuff. Rather amusing. Most people think that drug songs came along in the sixties, oh no, they've been around for decades.

guitar and harmonica.

Which preceded him by oh, at least half a century or more.

:rofl:

:eyes:

For one thing, Chuck Berry's "Too Much Monkey Business" is pretty much the same song as 'Subterranean Homesick Blues" and predates it by a number of years. And that's just one example.

A claim could be made that Bo Diddley's "Say Man" was also the first song featuring the kind of rythmic cadences we now codify as "rap" vocals. Or Some ancient Cab Calloway tune. Or a Charely Patton number. Or "Shave 'em Dry." Or something by Big Joe Turner. Or...


I guess the case I'm trying to make here is that blacks were "inventing" this kinda stuff for years before Dylan "discovered" it.

Not only are their countless examples in the blues dating back to the early days of acoustic recording, Gilbert and Sullivan made patter songs a staple of their operettas. Mozart and Handel did the same thing. More educated minds than mine surely know of earlier examples. Goo query, though.

their ancestors were the first rappers... and be insulted if you suggested otherwise.


:shrug:

(And I am a huge Dylan fan, so I am being honest here...)

Chuck Berry's "Too Much Monkey Business" from almost a decade earlier was rap, and 20 years prior, Robert Johnson's "They're Red Hot" gets the nod as a major predecessor to rap.