Finally saw "MASH," the movie

I grew up on the series. I like it more.

The film was well done, for the most part, and I realize that there's a great deal of apples-oranges in comparing the film and its actors to such a long-running TV series, but the series had charm that I think the film totally lacked.

The film has been accused of being misogynistic and loaded with frat-style humor, but I think that aspect's kind of consistent with the irreverent and anti-establishment sensibility that suffuses it (and that was in vogue in 1970, the same year that produced the film version of Catch 22). I haven't read the book that the film is based on, but there's a degree of reality in the film and its staging that provides a complexity that may be less noticeable in the TV series -- the film's characters tended to be more awkward and less glib, which is more realistic in a way.

I found the film kind of mean-spirited, which is not a tragic flaw, but -- more unsettling -- I found it just not that compelling. The alleged main characters (Hawkeye and Trapper John) are not all that present in much of the film, actually, and that fact was also noted by the actors involved who (unsuccessfully) lobbied to have Altman pay less attention to the secondary characters. Actually, it seems like many people working on this film -- including Robert Altman and also the writer who didn't recognize his script in the final product -- hated the experience.

Yes, the movie is dark and nihilistic, and far more extremely anti-Establishment. But the TV show was also very edgy, for TV, and particularly so given that it first aired while US combat troops were still on the ground in Vietnam, and we all know that the movie and TV series were really about Vietnam, not Korea (indeed, perhaps the series helped America deal with what happened in Vietnam, to at least a small extent). The TV show was vastly funnier, that's for sure. And the characters were more likable, though not necessarily simply as a side-effect of the sanitizing influence of network television...perhaps it's part of the point of the movie that none are really that likable, because Hawkeye and Trapper basically come as as just plain jerks.

I love Donald Sutherland, but for me it's his role as Oddball in Kelly's Heroes, the same year, that defines him, not his turn as Hawkeye Pierce. Elliot Gould was perhaps better as Trapper than in any role before or since, but it's only the fact I haven't seen the first seasons of M*A*S*H* in many, many years that makes it hard to decide whether I liked Wayne Rogers in the role better...I seem to recall TV's Trapper being kind of sardonic but not as dark and grungy as the film iteration. Colonel Blake in the film is great, but I grew up with the TV version and he's more an integral part of the primary troupe in the televised version. Sally Kellerman was great as Hotlips, but so was Loretta Swit. Robert Duvall remains one of the greatest actors who ever lived, but his relatively short turn as Frank Burns in the film didn't do to much for me, quite possibly because the TV character is fundamentally different...one thing's for sure, if the call is for Frank Burns to be a sniveling little jerk, I think Larry Linville could outsnivel Bob Duvall. Duvall may be a thespian god, but I'm not sure how convincing his sniveling would be. I didn't know Robert Duvall was in this film, actually...ditto for Rene Auberjunois and Tom Skerritt and Bud Cort. The film introduced quite a number of actors to the screen. And I noticed that David Sacher (a friend of my family-by-marriage, who went on to be Surgeon General) was medical advisor to the film.

Oh...one thing that I really thought was a waste of time and basically an annoying ordeal was the lengthy football sequence toward the end. Perhaps it was some kind of allegory but, really....cut the damned thing, already.

I guess, for me, Alan Alda will always be Hawkeye.

But the theme song remains as cool as ever.

"I'm in the broad jump, coach!"

"All right, bub, your fuckin' head is comin' right off."

"Oh, my God, they shot him!"
"Hot Lips, you incredible nincompoop, that's the end of the quarter!"

The guy running out of bounds and taking out the guys in wheelchairs.

"Sixty-nine is divine! Sixty-nine is divine!"

The last play — the center-eligible take-back, and that wicked block by Spearchucker.

And the guys smoking dope at the end. :D

Edit: And when the gun goes off and Superbug takes off like he's running the 100 and plows into the cheerleaders.

Through early morning fog I see visions of the things to be
The pains that are withheld for me I realize and I can see . . .
That suicide is painless it brings on many changes
And I can take or leave it if I please.

I try to find a way to make all our little joys relate
Without that ever-present hate but now I know that it’s too late,

and . . .That suicide is painless it brings on many changes
And I can take or leave it if I please.

The game of life is hard to play. I’m gonna lose it anyway.

The losing card I’ll someday lay so this is all I have to say.

That suicide is painless it brings on many changes
And I can take or leave it if I please.

The only way to win is cheat and lay it down before I’m beat,

and to another give my seat for that’s the only painless feat.

That suicide is painless it brings on many changes
And I can take or leave it if I please.

The sword of time will pierce our skins it doesn’t hurt when it begins

But as it works its way on in the pain grows stronger . . . watch it grin, but . . .
That suicide is painless it brings on many changes
And I can take or leave it if I please.

A brave man once requested me to answer questions that are key
'Is it to be or not to be' and I replied 'oh why ask me?'
That suicide is painless it brings on many changes
And I can take or leave it if I please.
And you can do the same thing if you choose.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0022918/bio

When he co-wrote the song "Suicide is Painless" - he was 14 years old at the time - for the film MASH (1970), he told producer Ingo Preminger that all he wanted in return was a guitar. Preminger insisted that Altman would be compensated in the regular manner and drew up a contract for his services. As it turned out, with Altman receiving royalties every time the song is played, he wound up making far more than the $75,000 his father was paid to direct the film.

Is Ingo Preminger related to Otto Preminger?
:hi:

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0695931/bio

Brother of director Otto Preminger, uncle of Erik Lee Preminger.

:hi:

why was the orderly smiling when he sang it at Waldowski's "wake"? :shrug:

as in "oh the irony of it all":shrug:

More likely, it was his reaction to the joke. But if I were a director, I wouldn't want to show that, especially when everyone else was so solemn.

Plus, if Painless saw the guy smiling, he might think something was up.

This was the first full piece I learned to play on the guitar at 15. Loved the movie and the book, lukewarm about the TV series.

:hi:

:shrug:

weird, huh?

That was when I decided to go to college!

I've probably read it a dozen times -- only 180 pages. The movie follows it very closely including the football game. Not surprisingly, the author, Richard Hooker, who actually was a MASH surgeon during the Korean War, loved the movie and hated the TV series.

Still, if you're a fan, it's a page-turner, and it helps you understand a few things that weren't explained in the film or series.

(The series didn't explain much of anything, come to think of it. They were awful at continuity.)

and quote a few passages from it? :shrug:

You buy some books for the author; others, for the subject. "M*A*S*H" was one of the latter.

I just didn't understand what you meant by amateurish writing. Was the grammar or usage poor? Was there a lack of fact checking (as appropriate for a work of fiction)? Were there slip-ups in continuity? Was there a monotonous repetition of phrasing or style? Or what?

A lot of cites like "Hawkeye put in" or "Trapper commented." And the dialogue itself was pretty poorly constructed.

This isn't to say I didn't enjoy the book — both times. It just reads like it wasn't written by a pure writer, which it wasn't.

it was a pretty clunky style. Good book, but not well written. I've read it a number of times, and read the first sequel (MASH goes to Maine) as well--thought they were great books to read, but far from a "great" book in any literary sense.

Nothing wrong with that, really--he was a surgeon who had some interesting experiences and a quirky sense of humor, and wrote them all down, rather than a writer who etc.

A guide to getting things done in a bureaucracy.

That has to be one of the funniest scenes ever written.

I agree with the poster who said the writing was amateurish, however.

Or any of the other sequels? I think there must have been half a dozen or more (MASH goes everywhere), though I think only MASH and MASH/Maine were really written by Hooker.

Anyway, I thought MASH Goes to Maine was a good read as well, very funny and interesting. Overall I agree with Oeditpus Rex's assessment of the style of the novels, but I did find them very enjoyable to read, particularly being a huge fan of the characters (from the show, mostly--I don't think I'd seen the movie at the time ...)

a) trying to find that movie, or
b) writing that review?

I think part of the reason for the success of the TV show was that it also moved past the fab five - (Blake/Potter, Trapper/BJ, Hawkeye, Hotlips, and Frank/Winchester) to include Radar, Klinger, Mulcahy, Rizzo, and some nurses as regulars. Also the fact that the five went to 8 because of replacements may have helped too, adding freshness to the storylines.

By about the seventh season, they were getting desperate for plotlines. I mean, a bowling tournament? :wtf:

When you can't beat them in any other competition. See Cheers, for example, where it was through Bowling that the neighborhood bar finally bested Gary's Olde Towne Tavern ... and much like the MASH episode, the winning contribution came from the least likely source (Diane Chambers, who took a bowling class to fulfill her undergrad Phys Ed requirement)

I'm pretty sure it's been used in other sitcoms as well, but I can't think of another example offhand :)

very recently as well and was very impressed with the film overall

And I think that has a lot to do with the way anyone looks at it. For anyone who watched the television series regularly, the film will seem completely alien to the characters you've come to know. But the film is much closer to the book than the series was.

I enjoyed the series but I have to say I enjoyed the early years a lot more than the later. Everyone got so damn nice - Hawkeye got nice, Klinger stopped wearing dresses, Hotlips became Margaret (and was nice), Frank left and Winchester wasn't really that obnoxious. It got to be such a lovefest, it was ridiculous.

The book and the film were about how people cope in impossible situations, situations that verge on insanity (trying to patch up people mutilated in war so they can go back to war and mutilate other people). The show started off being about that but morphed into something else, a broader look at the insanity of war. Which is fine - you probably couldn't have taken that irreverent approach that was originally there for as many seasons as the show ran (not to say that it didn't still have plenty of irreverent moments).

But the show and the film were two different things.

The significance of the football game is that it is the only violence in the film.

"Football is the kindergarten of War" -Aristotle -(I'm quoting Altman).

The football was metaphor for war, complete with the mindless cheerleading.

remember when Trapper punched Burns in the store room?

"Oh jeez, I was going to announce you as chief surgeon this week. Now I'll have to wait at least a month..."

And finally when Burns launches himself over the table at Hawkeye after they broadcast he and Hot Lips having sex throughout the camp.

"FRANK BURNS HAS LOST HIS MIND!"

I think the movie is genius, and the TV show is... well, a TV show based on a fantastic movie.

I cherish the film and I think the early TV M*A*S*H was among the finest of all sitcoms.

However, you can't have characters as they were portrayed in the film portrayed the same way in a sitcom, especially Frank Burns.....

Films have you for a couple of hours and then let you go, sitcoms have to write Characters that make the largest number of TV viewers want to tune in every week and watch commercials. So, sitcom characters will, for marketing reasons, be more accessible because they have to appeal to a much broader base than a film character has to.

I saw it first run, then read the book followed closely by "Mash Goes to Maine" (the other so called sequels were light, amusing and contrived).

When the TV show premiered I watched the first few episodes with trepidation, but was always pleased with the show. Different approach.

Frank in the movie is actually a combination of two characters in the novel.

Frank in the TV series morphed into more sniveling weasel than moralistic fundy and that was fine because you can do more with a character like that long term.

in that in the book he was presented as a really good doctor, though he was impossibly moral and arrogant in the wrong way (like letting kids get near death so that he could save their lives via open heart massage, because he was the best heart-masseuse in korea). In the sitcom he's a really bad doctor (at best "fair but competent," as blake once describes him), and I think he would have been more interesting with the challenge of that extra dimension. (They partially corrected that mistake with Winchester.)

that in the book and the film, Margaret's last name was O'Houlihan, but in the series it was Houlihan?

Too "ethnic" for teevee, maybe? :shrug:

about three episodes in to the series.

The writers discovered early in the first season that there were no black surgeons in the Korean War, so they wrote him out.

I guess that didn't faze the film's writers. :eyes:

In addition to Spearchucker, Nurse Ginger (an African American nurse) appeared a whole lot more frequently in the first couple of seasons than she did in later years. There were other characters from the first season that disappeared as well, like Ho-John and Ugly John ...

The series was a great sit-com.

I saw the movie at the theatre the day it opened in 1970. Donald Sutherland has always been Hawkeye Pierce to me. Robert Duvall has always been Frank. And Sally Kellerman IS Hot Lips.

Fundie hypocrite, however brief his appearance.

I wish the teevee version had included the dentist Painless Pole. }(