Need Parenting Advice

We have 2 daughters, 16 & 18. A month ago, younger daughter petitions us for pierced ears and a third piercing for an earplug. Older daughter petitions us for third piercing in ear cartilage and tattoo on the occasion of her 18th birthday. Petitions for all but earlobe piercing for the younger daughter were denied. (There is a long standing family rule that ear piercing may not occur till high school). Basis for denial is exercise of parental authority - on the reasoning that decisions for body alteration are best left until maturity arrives - defined by us as when child is self supporting (more or less), or at least away at college on their own. Neither of us have tattoos or piercings, other than Mrs. Iddy's pierced earlobes.

Yesterday, we learned that both younger and older had almost immediately ignored our wishes and had the desired earplug piercing and tattoo done. Younger got busted with a bone in her ear and ratted the older out. The older has not fessed up. We are now trying to decide what to do. The two are generally good kids, get good grades, and have not otherwise done much to get in trouble.

On one hand, no one died, or was hurt or arrested, and I don't want to overreact -- what are the odds that older teens will do something that their parents don't approve of? On the other hand, we have always stressed honesty and respect, and the defiance of (an admittedly somewhat arbitrary) parental decision is troubling, and doing nothing seems to us to be sending the wrong message.

So good DUers, what is your advice on how to best to deal with this in a way that is proportionate and likely to have a positive result?

Thanks

I do not have the answer, but maybe just a few thoughts...

Piercings aren't body alterations, are they?
I couldn't get from your story if lies were involved. Those would be serious offenses.
I would ask them why they came to you in the first place, if they were going to do what they wanted anyway?
What are the odds, you ask? I would say 100% ;-)

Honesty, respect and open-ness are the ones that matter, I'd say.

Younger daughter only fessed up when caught red-eared. Older daughter has not fessed up, and doesn't know we know about the tattoo (it is not visible). However, when I questioned her about what she thought would be appropriate punishment for the younger daughter's action, she suggested that we should be glad she didn't disobey us and pierce her ear cartilage. I take that bit of misdirection to be more serious than what the younger child did. I am reluctant to let her know that her younger sister ratted her out.

We consider some piercings as body alterations - and for reasons of parental convenience drew the line between what is ok and what is not pretty arbitrarily.

Thanks for your thoughts.

If my kids ask for tattoos or piercings, I'll say sure, but you have to research it and report your findings. Health/safety concerns, long term effects, etc...

I don't mind if they do it, I just want them to make an informed decision.

I definitely agree that doing nothing would be sending a mixed message to them. Possibly a frank discussion with them about the value of honesty would be appropriate as you sound like rather open-minded parents to me.

If you decide to mandate some sort of "sacrifice" on their part, another possibility is having them spend a Saturday doing some kind of charity work. Of course, it would be even better if you made a family affair out of it. I've seen this done before, and it seems to be a win-win approach, as long as the kids are reasonably mature enough to see the value of what they're doing.

The eighteen year old and her new tatoo, I don't think you can do much about. Legally she can get one and you really don't have any practical way of stopping her. At her age sticking to guidance and avoiding putting your foot down for anything that isn't vital is a good idea anyhow, she's going to need to make a few stupid decisions as part of the maturing process and it's better that it happen while you're around to help her with the consequences if needed. Find out where she got it though, and if the place isn't clean as a whistle and thier sterilization doesn't impress you, make her get a test for hepatitis C (younger daughter too) for that matter, I'd make them get checked either way.

My greater concern with her is did she give the adult consent for her younger sister's peircing? If she did I think that deliberately usurping your parental authority is the greater concern and grounds for some pretty severe punishment- my thought would be to take her car, phone etc away and ground her for the remainer of the summer.

Younger daughter? Well, for starters I'd make her get the unauthorized piercings removed. Then, since she's shown that she can't be trusted to follow the rules without supervision, I'd give her the same treatment as the older one. (No car, no phone no fun. Happy summer.)

Mind, my kid's only five, but my younger sister and I were teenage girls not that long ago. For that matter, baby sister got a few unauthorized piercings herself.

The place I go to requires the ID of whatever adult is consenting for the minor. If that person is not the parent, then they must furnish legal proof of guardianship.

What the older did was perfectly legal, and I suspect the younger's piercing was homemade. I am most concerned about the older one, because she is going off to school in the fall, and I fear she may not have the maturity to cope well there - and this is a good example of why I am concerned. Younger daughter is grounded for an indeterminate time (probably till the piercing heals, and seems to be taking our action in stride - acceptance and understanding of the reason. I am still struggling about what to do about the older daughter.

No wonder you have "Mom" in your name.

I'm not fond of tattoos and/or piercings aesthetically, but the health implications are what scare me the most.

Good advice, LM.

Hep C vaccines are probably in order.

I don't believe there's a vaccine for Hep C (my mother has the disease so if there was one I think she'd break the speed of sound in making me get the shot) however there is one for Hep B. Usually kids that age have recieved that one already.

I was a teenager not so long ago. My thoughts are thus:

You shouldn't do nothing. If you stress honesty and respect in your home, then they broke house rules. I would start with a calm, serious talk with each of them about how what they did isn't really about the fact that they now have holes in their ears and ink in their skin, but rather about the honesty and respect issue.

Don't turn it into a "because I'm the parent and I said so" speech. That nearly always backfires (at least it did with me). Rather, point out that honesty and respect are a mutual thing. How would they feel if you promised them you would or would not do something and then acted in an opposite manner? Tell them that the correct reaction to disagreeing with something you or your wife have said is to continue discussions. If they felt that your decision was wrong, they should have formulated an argument (not a fight, a logical debate) on why they felt you were being unfair/unjust/incorrect.

My feeling is that what you're really worried about isn't the tattoo and the piercing, but rather the potential for your daughters to lie or go behind your backs regarding something really important in the future. Nip that in the bud. Make it clear that when you give or deny permission to do something, you have a reason for it...and if they disagree, they can take it up with you in an adult manner...some sort of appeals process (of course you're still the final word, but then they feel they have some control or recourse).

As for punishment, it's hard to say without knowing what typical punishments are in your house. Honestly, I think the severity of the punishment should depend on their reaction to your talks. If there's eye rolling and they're saying "Yeah, whatever, sure...ok..." you may be justified in giving them a harsher penalty. If they seem to get what you're saying and agree to approach a similar situation differently next time, a lighter punishment may be in order. I think the most important thing is to establish how you want them to act in the future.

Good luck!

The honesty issue is the more important one, IMO. And I've found w/my 16- almost 17-year-old that this issue makes a difference to him, too. That is, he gets more upset at being accused of betraying our trust/wrecking the trust relationship we all think we have than at being accused of simply breaking a particular rule.

This is what we do anyway. They have shown they cannot be trusted, therefore they shall reap the rewards of their actions...which appear to be none. And I would make her remove the piercings and let them grow over. Good luck. I have a 16 year old who recently had to hand over her cell phone.

There is no way I would allow that in my house. Sorry, those of you with multiple piercings and tattoos, but I think it limits your opportunities.

Flame suit on.

It might look cool to their peers, but the bottom line, if they ever expect to be taken seriously by employers, the piercings aren't going to help. Or at least take the jewelry off before going into an interview, etc.

Flame me too, I guess I am old school.

The peircing issue seems resolved for now, but I sure hope the older one's peers are not inspecting her tattoo . . .

That's a whole 'nuther issue

We have used it judiciously over the years with good results. Our older daughter had internet privileges withdrawn for 2 years at 13 for unsafe chatting. But we have a son that did not respond to grounding at all. - parenting is hard work, to coin a phrase.

Younger daughter and I had a good talk tonite, and she earned a little leniency for her regognition of the issue. Still have to come to terms with the older one now.

But would have a serious heart to heart with them both - separately - to sort out why they first asked and then did it anyway against your wishes.

As the kids got older - they are now happily and healthily grown and out of the house - I never used the parental authority reason. I gave other ones.....:-)

As for my daughter - she at one time had several ear piercings, but she let all but the ear lobe single ones grow back after a couple of years. I discouraged her from too much (and tattoos) saying that it is so permanent you might not like it later - wait until you are a bit older to be sure....

Good luck with this - it is nothing more than challenging parental authority IMO - so maybe a talk about this will clear the air. Keeping the open and honest relationship is paramount, in my experience.

DemEx

possible violations and punishment - I would keep it personal for each child as much as possible, to help keep their relationship positive as well.

DemEx

I was discussing younger daughter's punishment with the older in the hopes of having her realize she had made a serious mistake and breach of trust. In short to encourage her to fess up, without implicating what the younger had told us.

It didn't work, and now we have the original disobedience coupled with deceit, by the older.

And dip their hands in warm water....

My philosphy, at the moment, is to find the medium. You don't want to be asbolutely permissive, but being too strict can sometimes get the opposite result. I can remember growing up that the kids with the parents who were very restrictive were usualy the ones the most likely to go against their parent's wishes, and usually in an extreme way. Personally, I would draw the line at tatoos, but I would allow piercings (ear and maybe eyebrow at the most) as long as I knew where they were having them done so I would know if those places were safe. I don't know what an ear plug is. Of course, as with anything parental, this philosophy could change by the time I actually have to face these things. I find a lot of the ideals I had about parenting flew out the window when I actually became a parent.

There are too many kids out there that are "13 going on 30". I'd rather have them be 13 going on 14.

have their ears pierced which is cute IMO

Tat's on the other hand, I hate.

Everyone and their mother's son has a tat.
The ugliest type of craven conformity there is.
Nothing about tats make you special, different
or original. Oh and did I say they're ugly?

Nice shoulder tat with a formal gown, nothing
spells low class more than that. Plus it spoils
your grad portrait. Oh and did I mention they're ugly?

Cattle are tattooed in order to prove which herd
they belong to. Same for people.

Oh did I get around to saying they're ugly?

Also, placement is often off when the pierced baby turns into an adult.

I didn't even see this comment earlier. How insulting.

I have a tattoo that I happen to love. I plan to get a second one, to commemorate my older brother and younger cousin, both deceased. To you that may be ugly, to me, it is pure love.

Tattoos are art. When a tattoo has personal meaning, it is quite beautiful. Sure some people get tattoos because it's just some trendy thing to do, but yanno. You are going to find that everywhere. Open your mind man. Tattoos are alot more than just ink to many of us.

and I think assholes who make blanket statements like that are low-class, and their ignorance sure makes them appear ugly.

I have 2 tattoos, so perhaps I should be offended. However, your statements say a lot more about you than they do about me.

doesn't win you many friends given that
almost everyone under the age of forty
either has one or is thinking about it.

I have always been very suspicious of
prevailing fashion.

So I will continue to eschew the 'too
for the reasons I've stated.

I just don't understand why people want to mulitate their bodies. My ex-husband had my name tattoed on his arm. I had a fit and told him that he would regret it some day. Well, we divorced later and he did regret it.

I came down a little hard on the 'too crowd.
They tend too be a little thin skinned if you'll
pardon the pun.

I have a feeling that the last thing their children
will want is a tattoo and that clear un punctured and
unadorned skin will be the fashion in the next ten
years.

No more Hells Angels winged skulls on women's lower
backs. (ugh)

I once thought it would be funny to will my body to
science and then have a tattoo on my chest saying,
"Welcome to Anatomy 346, Good Luck on Your Final Exam"

My tattoo artist (and so do many other reputable ones) refuses to do tattoos like that. The only names they'll tattoo at the studio I go to is the name of your child or of a lost friend/family member. Their reason being is you'll always have your children or the memory of someone you lost.

Tattoos are hardly mutilation though.

Blanket statement that manages to provide your opinion and an inaccuracy. Very good. While we're on the subject of annoying the crap out of people for no good reason, would you mind getting rid of those irregular line breaks? See, I find them ugly.

Consider it done but I don't do it for just
anybody. You're special.

BTW yours is the most polite flame I've received.

The worst part about it is they are very good kids. Less trouble than I was to my parents by a long shot.

I just hope to help them delay choices they might regret, until they have the maturity to make choices with insight, rather than impulse.

The 19 year old(soon 20) has been away at college for 3 years. He has stretched his earlobes to 1" and has various other piercings. 17 year old has asked for the "industrial" piercing (bar across ear), we did allow her a cartilage piercing in one ear. Can't do much about the boy he is pretty much on his own and does his best to cover things up or wear something that is as unobtrusive as possible. He's a good kid and is in the music field so it is accepted in the profession. He has been read the riot act about tattoos and so far has obeyed. This is a personal thing for me.
The 17 year old will NOT be getting any more piercings or stretching her current ones while we have any control and that includes college for her. Double standard, yes but there are extenuating circumstances with her that I can't go into.

You have control over the 16 year old. The piercing should come out and privileges taken away. The same should go for the 18 year old even if it is legal, she is living at home and should obey the rules.

At 40 I came home with a henna tattoo from the beach and my mom read my the riot act about getting a tattoo. Your never too old to have to listen to your parents.

about an 18 year old kid that couldn't believe how stupid his dad was, but when he turned 21, he was amazed at how much the old man had learned in the past two years.

and getting the tattoo.......maybe it will guilt her into fessing up. Make her squirm. :-)

I hope I can pull it off as well as I imagine it working . . .

but it's the tactic I imagine my mother using....and it would definitely make me squirm and feel guilty. I would HAVE to confess.

I picked her up from work last night and she said she didn't like it whem her mom was sad - but she didn't know what she could do about it. I replied that I was glad she didn't do something stupid, like getting a tattoo.

That was a real conversation stopper.

She is pissed at her sister, but still playing dumb with me.

Cool it !

You're lucky they lasted this long.

They're growing up,like it or not.

You seem like a great Dad.

She realized what she had done was wrong because she had betrayed our trust, and was genuinely sorry for it. I think the experience was very good for both of us. She gets to learn from a mistake - and I get to feel better about her growing up with a good head on her shoulders.

Still got to get through to the older one though.

BTW, I agree with you about picking your battles. . .

you gave to her will become part of her.

This little "rebellion" is part of the leaving the nest process.

They sound like great gals.

The one big consolation I can give to you is that you can laugh when they start having trouble with their own teenagers. That's the phase I'm in now---and I love it.

When he was alive, my dad used to laugh his ass off when we were dealing with the kids

Not sure about the values thing though. I can't believe how different my three kids are, or how different I am from my sibs . . .

but if they're good kids over all, it's one small, very small battle lost.

Make them do extra chores or something, or make you a big dinner, or ... something.

And have a good laugh about it, cause life is way, way, WAY too short.

something that might be the basis of the problem is that you're telling them that they aren't mature enough to decide anything for themselves (I know that's not really what you're saying, but it's what they hear). Whether or not that's true (and it'd be an interesting debate, but that's a different conversation), it might be that they're trying to prove that they ARE mature, etc.

I don't know how you should deal with it (since I'm not a parent) but as a recent teenager (almost 21 now), they respect being talked to like an adult. In the future, try to talk to them as adults. You may get pretty far. Good luck :hi:

Oldest is living with this now and youngest probably has told oldest you know. Let it stew a while. Don't pretend you don't know, but don't lecture either - if you pretend you don't know you are being dishonest as well. Pick a day and if she hasn't confessed by then confront and explain all of it including the fact that you tried to let her take the right path. Tell her you lone her. Let her determine punishment/sacrifice.

They did nothing, harmful, excepthonestly, to disrepect you.

You should have had my afternoon, speaking with a vice-principal, about my son's behavior,...towards BOTH of us,....over sunflower seed shells, for crying out loud. My son brought them, spread them around, a mess ensued and he acted like an ass towards his teacher, the VP and even ME on the phone.

The VP said he became so angry that other's weren't sharing the punishment he hit walls in the VP's office because "it wasn't fair the rest of the guys he gave seeds to" weren't being made to help him clean up the mess.

None of them admitted guilt, of course.

The consequences of him being CAUGHT and refusing to clean up the mess: suspension at school and no "learning to drive" for a month at home.

"Life is NOT fair", I told him on the phone. "Weigh the consequences, that's all you can do."

He swallowed his pride, his sense of fairness and cleaned up the mess. I am DAMNED PROUD OF HIM!!!!! I talked at length with the VP, initially just to verify what my son told me he had done. But, the VP and I,....ended up having a lengthy discussion about fairness and life and my son and ourselves.

Life's difficult, people!!! Not just for us, but for our kids, too. Maybe, that's why kids freakin "pierce" themselves,....it's one of the only "feeling" of control they have left over their lives!!!!

We have to be real and allow them to be heard. My son has little difficulty in the "being heard",...he's adjusting to the being real and he made the better choice, today.

Son arrested at high school for turning an exit sign to point at a restroom (malicious mischief). Had to do the song and dance with the prosecuter's office to keep his record clear. He is a good kid, and has not been in trouble since (4 years).

I do not agree that disrespect for parental wishes is not harmful. Respect for others is foundational and cannot be ignored.

The fact he disrespected not only his teacher and his VP, but also his Mom OVER SUNFLOWER SEED SHELLS was over the top. The teacher was the one who was pissed,....and, my son doesn't know it but she got a chiding for leaving the class unattended such that it did happen. Like I said, the event allowed me to have a long conversation with the VP. BUT, the matter was just so silly, as usual, and my son allowed his ego and "sense of fairness" overrule his sense of reality,...and he WAS the one who brought the darned things, in the first place (I doubt I'll offer to buy them anymore having cleaned up after him, myself).

He made a reasoned, adult choice, today. Life is NOT fair. You have to weigh the consequences of your choices, young and old, rich and poor, all walk of life,...and do the best you can. That is life.

Objecting simply to exercise parental authority is counterproductive. I wouldn't be thrilled about either a tattoo or an ear-bone on my child. I wouldn't fund it. I would try to talk them out of it.

However, in this case, no real harm is likely to come to them. Now the deed is done. Tell them that you are changing your policy, that from now on they will be treated as young adults and that you will explain the reasons for your requirements or denials of requests.

Tell them that you love them more than anything,
that they are good, smart girls,
that you know that they understand that you have their best interests at heart.

Tell them that you respect them. That you hope that in the future, they will respect your years of experience and abide by your decisions (whether they agree with your reasoning or not) because the next time you say 'no' it will be because it matters.

We did explain our reasoning, and they disagreed with it, and did what they wanted. We think part of being a parent is setting limits and enforcing those limits. Sometimes this involves being arbitrary - for example setting curfew at 11 instead of 12. This was one of those things. We explained that we wanted to set a limit on body alteration so they would delay decisions that could be permanent until a time they were more certain that was something they really wanted to do. We set the threshold prettly low, because we saw almost no circumstance that waiting a couple of years would do any harm. The problem is not the policy - I agree that no real harm was done. The problem we are struggling with is the disobediance and disrespect for our wishes, even after we had a clear discussion of our decision and the reasons therefor. I don't want to overreact but I don't think it is a good idea to just let it go either.

We do tell them that we love them, and I think they recognize that and that we have their best interests at heart. We try hard to respect them, and give them space to grow, to make their own decisions, and to loosen the restictions as they grow and are better able to make good decisions. But the fact is that they are not yet adults, they are not magically endowed with full adult wisdom at 16 or even 18, a fact my own life amply demonstrates.

The thing that troubles me is that this was one of those cases where we did expect them to respect our years of experience and abide by our decisions (whether they agree with our reasoning or not) and that we said 'no' because it mattered to us.

that if they can't be trusted, they can't be respected as much as before. Tell them that their actions will cause you to take into consideration the fact that they went behind your back in future decisions.

It went very well. Still have the older one to deal with.

Squealing on a sibling to lessen your own peril is heinous. Not a trait you want to reward. These girls are going to have to take care of each other at some point in the future. If you get busted take your lumps but don't implicate your allies. Big Boo's for that. Otherwise good luck.

and one I had not thought too much about. On the one hand I'm not sure how much I feel about encouraging the mafia "rule of silence" in my kids, but I also get your point.

I don't think I would reward the younger by lessening her punishment, nor do I think that was her expectation. I think she felt uncomfortable being expected to keep her sister's secret, and essentially lie to us. That was a shitty position to put the younger one in, especially since they did not act together in the first place, and the older one could have kept it to herself.

On the other hand I will be very unhappy with the older one if she takes it out on the younger.

You say they are both good kids. The 18 year old is really old enough to make that decision herself-she would have done it on her birthday, anyways.

The 16 year old did deliberately defy you. As you're stuck with her for another 2 years or so, you have to give her some consequence for defying you, not for the actual piercings. Make her cook dinner or mow the grass, or something of that nature. Don't make it "punishment", but a consequence. If she screams about her sister not getting a consequence, you can either point out the legal age thing or make the sister help in whatever consequence you dish out.

What Would James Dobson Do?

Beat the hell out of them, for Jesus!