Is rap music losing its creative edge?

I sense a certain repetition.

..."Rap Music".

Rap "Music" has Never had even one molecule of "edge".."taste"...or "talent".

You don't know what you're talking about.

;)

Rap expressed an urban malaise that wasn't being acknowledge by the mainstream. Rap 30 years ago was a subculture yearning to have a voice recognized because there was lots of crap that was going on and no one was paying attention. It was urban and political. Now, what is considered mainstream rap is worlds different than where rap was years ago. Please don't discredit rap just because you're turned off from what you hear on the radio. It's not representative of what rap was and will be.

I have always liked "old school" rap, but I have a hard time with the violence and misogyny in the newer stuff.

but I never heard anything particularly creative

some of the earlier political stuff and certainly the hateful garbage the genre spawned are "edgy" . . .

sorry.

:shrug:

:hide:

Then why would lots of the suburban white boys emulate it?

you have an edge? ... aaah! :-)

Doesn't matter if it's fashion, music, slang, liberalism, celebrity obsession...suburban kids (I'll expand it beyond just the boys) are fascinated by what comes out of the big cities. Whether it's good or bad.

Eminem was a "nobody" until he moved into the urban mainstream. When it comes to RAP, I find it intriguing that the white boys in the burbs all of a sudden had a rapper that they could relate to. And the copycats were popping up left and right.

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an art form. I don't even like much of it (in fact I think it's now thrown willy nilly into songs much like the saxophone in the eighties) but even I realize that it's an art form.

Just because you don't understand the art doesn't mean it's not art.

And, in its day it was a pretty gritty representation of what was happening in the inner city that gave it as much of an edge as any rock band. Ignorance of that is just...surprising.

Please read my posts.

:pals:

and I can't make nearly as good a case for rap, as I don't care for a lot of it, generally.

:toast:

Shock value for dollars. If that's artistic to you (and a good argument can be made that it is), then have at it.

Really. :eyes:

Not all rappers are about shock value, especially outside of the realm of Clear Channel and MTV. Yeah, when you turn on the radio to the local hip-hop station and there's a song about "bitches and hos", you could say it's shock value. However, that's what sells and that's why it's on the radio. You're confusing the kind of rap that's profitable for Clear Channel and the rap that actually is artistic and substantial.

Well, just because someone doesn't understand it doesn't mean that it is art, either. Art may be difficult to understand, but it's too tempting to dismiss critics as "not getting it" rather than addressing the possible unevenness in the art form.

In terms of other artforms, I "get" Matthew Barney's vibe, for example, but I still say it's crap. In fact, I say it's crap all the more because I do get it, rather than just rejecting it because I haven't understood it. Particular elements or examples of rap can likewise be dismissed as crap without pissing on the entire genre.

Personally, I've never cared for pop-rap, which is so aggressively marketed and devoid of substance that one can be forgiven for failing to distinguish it from any of a hundred like-sounding commercials.

Aesthetically, I've never been very fond of much pure rap, but that's just a matter of taste--I can recognize its merit without wishing to listen to it.

And how the ignorant masses step forth anytime hip-hop/rap is mentioned around here. x(

Corporate hip/hop just like corporate pop is pure crap. You need to look at more alternative rap with that actually has some talented people building it up. The Beasties continue to do fine work. I also like the turntablism of DJ Spooky and espeically how he can mix genres and still come off sounding great. Mos Def is another good alt rapper. It's there just stay away from the radio. Satellite radio has some great rap/breakbeats/hip-hop stations.

Wouldn't it be more convincing if you had at least given an example?

In fact, if you're observing a loss of creativity, could you please lay out your conclusion in more than five words?

on the radio IMO just like there is high quality pop. I can tolerate Eminem and Kanye West.

Missy Elliott (gets on the radio - yes, radio has its share of crap, but there are bright spots)
Akon (also gets on the radio)
Mr. Lif

The other two, not so much, haha.

beats. Mr. Lif's beats are pretty propulsive, which makes him unique. What do you think of Gnarls Barkley?

I've been a fan of Dangermouse's production for a while (Dangerdoom, for example, is one of my favourite hip-hop albums of the last couple years) and I love Cee-Lo's vocals, too. Definitely doing something different.

Umm...yes.
Can they even come up with an ORIGINAL beat or backing music? Why must they rip EVERYONE off?
Sorry; I know there are some unrecognized artists that are original in the genre, but most of the stuff that gets exposure is just....aaaaugh.

Sigh, this whole discussion gets really tiresome the dozenth time you go through it.

I think I did us all a service by getting out of the lounge and not responding to this for a few hours.

And my second question would be what were the lyrics of the rap?

professional one), it really irks me that the background / beat is pretty much all the same, like that crappy 96-beats-minute percussion that was in EVERY disco "song" in the 1970s.

Redstone

been out traveling, hitchhiking and hoppin trains, goin all over, but i broke my collarbone jumping off a train (long story) so now i'm back in wisconsin to recover...so i'll be around

good to see you too

How was the vagabond life treating you?

read about some of it fer yerself if yer interested http://www.livejournal.com/users/oilpaintedeyes

if there were any rap records which Dr Dre doesn't make money from?

Inevitably it brings out all the people who likely listen to prog rock to offer their "harumphs" at an entire genre.

I'm hardly a rap afficianado and I do believe mainstream rap is at a place now where mainstream metal was at the end of the 80's and mainstream alternative rock was at the mid to late 90's. Just recycling caricatures of itself. As in both of those cases there is good stuff in the field brimming just below the surface. It just needs something to come along and kick it in the pants.

I gave this one a day. It's not looking much better.

Michael Franti and Spearhead. Great melting pot of hip-hop, rock, reggae, and soul music, with a pronounced social conscience. Power to the Peaceful! I heard his "Bomb The World" on shockedandawful.com's protest music page, and I'm going to be buying some of his albums. He strikes me as not only a very creative and eclectic musician, but a great human being as well. "You can bomb the world to pieces, but you can't bomb it into peace."

Like any art form, the basest and stupidest forms gain mass visibility by appealing to the lowest common denominator. The truly creative and vital stuff lies below the mass-market schlock surface.

Todd in Beerbratistan

I could spend a bit of time shooting down Redstone's blisteringly ignorant comment, but I won't beat a dead horse. A couple other posters here have put up fantastic hip-hop groups that many progressives could get behind. Michael Franti and Spearhead, while more "world music" than anything else, certainly has a large hip-hop element and is among the more-progressive voices in music today.

And primate1's suggestion of getting the new album by The Coup is spot on. It's blend of funk, rap and radical politics makes for a great combination -- it's probably the hip-hop album of the year so far.

And if you want more-traditional rap messages (by traditional, I mean preaching about conditions on the streets, not "bitches and hos" or whatever), try anything by Talib Kweli or Mos Def -- better yet, try their duo project, Black Star.

There is a whole world of truly stellar rap music out there, but just as the best rock bands don't get played on Top 40 rock stations, so too the best hip-hop acts don't get played on your average rap station.

You've got to dig for gold.

And while I don't believe in the maxim "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all," I do believe that if you don't know what you're talking about you should shut your trap and learn. That applies to both ignorant assholes rapping about Kristal, bitches and hos, as well as those who think that type of lyrics covers the entire genre.

Exhibit A: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEuxTAJiHWs (Sweatshop Union - The Thing About It)
Exhibit B: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2owEDGtZzsQ (Dead Prez - Hip Hop)
Exhibit C: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRYrIqO1SUs (Sage Francis - Makeshift Patriot)
Exhibit D: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmwxKVFVx0M (The Roots - Seed 2.0)
Exhibit E: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igNDd2G7Y0A (Atmosphere - Trying To Find A Balance)
Exhibit F: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jf_8pHCqf4 (The Coup - We Are The Ones)

And so forth.

Edited to add Exhibit G, because Deltron 3030 is the shit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVJvllaHy_0

How dare you educate these poor, sheltered people?

I'm off to class. I'll contribute later if there's need.

The Coup's new album is outstanding, even speaking cross-genre -- meaning that that hip-hop album is better than most rock, rap, jazz, country or whatever albums created this year.

I think this is primarily a generational thing. I would not be surprised to hear that almost everyone in this thread who immediately dismisses rap as utterly without value is probably a bit older. Whether you're talking about having something meaningful to say (as with The Coup, The Roots, etc.) or in terms of sheer popularity (check the Billboard top 20 sometime -- it's dominated by rap more often than not), hip-hop is the most relevant musical form in the country today. Rock's status as the primier musical form of the United States has degenerated to at least No. 2 status, if not No. 3 behind country music. While rock remains my personal fave of the broad genres such as rap, country, jazz, rock, etc. (without breaking it down into subgenres such as Bakersfield country, bluegrass, heavy metal, alt-country or what have you), an objective observer can't claim that it's even close to being the most relevant form today.

People who dismiss rap as having no value probably didn't grow up with it, and were already somewhat set in their musical ways (college age or older) by 1985, when Raising Hell and License to Ill came out and changed history. Certainly, such dismissive critics already set their musical tastes in stone by the time rap popularity overtook rock in the mid-1990s. It's just a theory, mind you, and perhaps an ageist one at that, but such cultural trends do tend to slip by unnoticed by people whose culture is already defined.

Some of the people here dismissing rap are still in middle school. Some others might not even remember middle school.

Once, when I attended a high school graduation party with my parents, my mother was vocally appalled at the lewd dancing, and left in anger. My father responded to her calmly, saying, "We did the same things when we were their age. It's nothing new. Remember how Elvis Presley was banned because of the way he danced?" (I myself never dance in front of family.) Newer culture is not the scourge of the Earth to people who are willing to accept and acknowledge differences unless they observe it directly harming people first-hand.

Not being well acquainted with something does not compel people to join in denouncing it while repeatedly spouting marginal, anecdotal evidence. Cultural centrism and self-importance does.

In addition, rap is an old Lounge whipping boy, like video games, soccer, and children who act up in restaurants. When they see such a thread, many people won't pass up an opportunity to post and run some snide, ignorant garbage, with several grinning smileys included.

I think it's a combination of an aesthetic dislike for and an ignorance of the genre as a whole.

If you dislike hip-hop on an aesthetic level, that's fine, there's probably nothing anyone can do to convince you otherwise. To broadbrush it all as uncreative, misogynistic, etc. seems to be the result of a very demonstrable ignorance of the genre as a whole, and the ignorant opinions of its lack of creative merit and such are just used as a means to justify something that really doesn't need to be justified.

You can do that with just about any genre of music with equally bullshit results. If you hear Simple Plan or Good Charlotte, you can easily draw a conclusion that all punk is whiney "daddy didn't love me" garbage. Listen to Clint Black and Toby Keith and you could draw a conclusion that all country music is twangy jingoistic redneck music. (Without getting into the debate as to whether they would be considered examples of "real" punk or country.)

Every genre is going to contain a bit of good music surrounded by a whole lot of garbage. It's just the way things work. To think that rap is anything special in its abundance of mainstream shit is ludicrous. (Oh how hard it was to resist making a really bad pun there.) If you don't like it on an aesthetic level, say so, but don't try to pretend it's uncreative or whatever just because you have a very limited knowledge of the genre.

:loveya:

The responses were the most informative part of this thread. I really wish I had saved what I wrote there.

Shit, I must have missed that.

His recent work is especially timely. He condemns the Bush Administration and the Murdoch Empire.

The really intense delivery and really blunt references and such. :thumbsup:

(I could be way off, but that's just what it reminded me of.)

:evilgrin:

:hide:

RL

head.

Well played.

But it's not a goodie.

experience. Some of the music I love you all would despise. One man's ceiling is another man's floor.

I don't see a lot of point in criticizing people's music choices. If I don't like a certain artist or genre, I don't listen to it. I certainly don't expect everyone to lockstep behind me.

reply either way. One expects discussion, pros & cons, passionate opinions. My Bravo of the day goes to JackBeck for his informative, non-condescending, non-insulting posts.

Seriously, if we as Democrats cannot even discuss music civilly, how are we going to win against the Bush Mob??

xc