Anybody have a VW Jetta?

My wife is in the "I want a new car" mode and she wants good gas mileage. Any personal experiences with the Jetta or Bug would be greatly appreciated. She currently drives a RAV4 but she wants a car and she's eyeballing Volkswagons.

likes the car, but not the reliability.

My daughter is planning on buying a Jetta. And there'll be no talking her out of it.

Other than Honda they're the most reliable engines by far.

I haven't been following that side of things.

VWs and Audis are pretty much interchangeable. If you think
of them as Fords and Mercurys, that's just about right.

And, of course, VW Touareg = Porsche Cayenne.

Tesha

At one time they used that chassis for 15+ vehicles

A friend of mine here in the UK has his eyes on a Phaeton. The depreciation is phenomenal, and pretty soon they'll be about the same price as a new loaded Golf GTI.

Not sure, but I think the A6 is based on the Passat. I thought the A4 was based on the Jetta platform, but I can't be bothered to go look it up at the moment.

Yes, I could imagine the depreciation on the Phaeton is steep.
We bought our '03 Audi A8L at what I think was a very reasonable
price.

Tesha

For current model year:
Golf, Jetta, _and_ Passat are all on the same platform, shared with the Audi A3. The previous Passat shared its platform with the Audi A4. This is the "A" platform and is now in its 5th generation.

But according to Wiki, as of 2006, the Passat is on a stretched
version of the "A" platform, so while I was wrong and it's no
longer an A4, it isn't quite a Golf (Rabbit) or Jetta, either.

Tesha

(Former CU subscriber.)

Tesha

http://www.thecarconnection.com/Enthusiasts/Mechanics_Tale/Mechanics_Tale_VW_Heal_Thyself.S281.A9081.html

Except for the fact that I want my next car to be a diesel, I wouldn't consider buying one.

how bad the quality was starting to get. When you get a good one, you have a great car, but when you get a bad one, expect to be in the shop constantly. The engines seemed just fine, but we had mystery electrical problems and other assorted crap that my wife and I stopped driving our VWs and went with Chevys.

we looked at getting one until we found that out.

I think it has something to do with fuel in Europe generally being higher octane than US fuel.

was going to be cost prohibitive for us to operate the vehicle, and that was BEFORE gas jumped as high as it did. Instead we got a Honda accord and have been very happy with it.

What do you use then? My 406 coupe's high mileage so I use 99 ron but Ferrari's and stuff can use BP's supreme 102 ron fuel - but that's nearly $5 per litre!

US Octane ratings are staed as the average of the "Motor"
cctane number and "Research Octane Number" (RON).

In the US, the grades commonly sold are: 87, 89, and 93
(that's your "95 RON" fuel). Sunoco also sells a higher
grade, either 94 or 95. And if you look around, you can
find "racing fuel" at higher octanes (around 100, I think).

If you can still burn leaded fuel (I think it's still leaded),
you can also buy aviation (airplane) fuel, but it's expensive!

Tesha

which I have in my Jetta. My wife's Passat and my daughter's Jetta are 4 cylinder engines which can use regular.

The previous Passat had some electrical problems. They replaced the dash wiring harness a couple of times.

But they are enjoyable to drive.

the 2.0L turbo requires premium for best performance but will use regular with slightly reduced performance (according to the Jetta specs from the VW site).

*ALL* the VW/Audi/Porsche cars use a knock sensor and
will back-off from whatever grade of fuel they would like
to the grade of fuel that was actually put in their tank.

And at ~$0.10 more than mid-grade per ~3.00 gallon,
"premium" isn't nearly as comparitively expensive as
it used to be at ~0.10 more per $1.00 gallon. :-(

Tesha

I have a 2000 Jetta with the basic 2.0 liter engine. The basic engine can run on 87 octane gas without problems. If you get the turbo engine, because of the higher compression and the turbocharger, you'll need high octane fuel.

Or you could go green and get the TDI (the diesel version). Gets insanely high gas mileage, and you could fill it with biodiesel.

Jettas are good cars. I'll probably upgrade mine in a couple years (I want the bigger engine and a manual transmission).

It's a 2003, though, and a four cylinder.

No problems so far (he's got about 18,000 miles on it, all put on in 9 months).

Available on New Beetle and Jetta.

Tesha

It's probably the route I'd go if I moved back to the US.

Not at all like the old diesels that couldn't get out of their own way, fantastic car.

I think the switch to low-sulfur diesel in the US is starting now, yes? Not sure if the new VW TDIs sold in the us have the newer emission control systems (which are essential for clean running) but you could probably get 50mpg out of one of those. (I have heard, however, that the TDi engine isn't particularly great for biodiesel. And these engines aren't like old diesel engines. They don't smell, and they're not horribly loud, either.

As for the Jetta, it's a decent car. Quite safe, certainly more fun to drive than a RAV4. VWs don't enjoy the same reputation for quality now that they did 7 or 8 years ago, but they're still reasonably good.

1) the corny "amusement park" instrument panel
2) my friend had little problems constantly -- windows stuck open etc. No major problems but she was always at the dealership with some little thing
3) you had to pay $500 extra for a CD player -- but I believe they are standard now? That just floored me!

I ended up with a Saab wagon, so far so good....and cheaper.

I love the new 9-3 wagons. I'll probably get one eventually when my old-style 9-3 kicks the bucket.

It's holding up nice...although it did break down on the freeway once (fuel pump) arg.

1. When did GM buy SAAB?

2. Is yours a product of that acquisition?

3. Do you think it's any different than the SAABs made
back when they were a free-standing company? I've heard
that reliability has tumbled since the buy-out.

Tesha

(Who has looked at a SAAB or three including a Sonnett-III once,
but has never made the jump yet)

1) They bought half of it in 1990, and then I believe purchased the other half in 2000.

2) Yes, an '04 9-5 is definitely a product of that acquisition. It shares a platform with the Vauxhall/Opel Vectra, but many of the parts are not GM parts.

3) Yes and no. A lot of the really good things about SAAB are still there - the comfort, ergonomics, and safety are still there. There have been some duds, though. The "GM 900" (which preceded the 9-3) was pretty poor. They reworked it into the 9-3, which fixed a lot of the flaws. The new Saabs aren't as tank-like or unique as the old ones, and they've dropped the SAAB engine in favour of a GM engine, but they're still pretty damn good especially used ones in terms of value-for-money. Can't say much on the reliability of the new ones. Haven't had mine long enough. I never had problems with my old all-Saab 900.

I'm still on the fence regarding the new 9-3. The shape is growing on me, though.

That's what I drive now, great mileage (37 mpg), surprisingly lots of leg room, great fun to drive. It's a gas.

And Toyota cars, IMO, have superb reliability.

From a mid-sixties Bug right up until today, I've been a satisfied
VW (etc.) owner for many, many years, and all of my Volkswagens
and my two Audis have both given me good, long, hard-working
service, with most approaching or just edging 200K miles.

Two things to look for, especially if you're buying used:

o Various VW (etc.) engines have had problems with their
ignition coils. I expect this has been remedied on new
production cars, but for used cars, Google up some reports
on this and see what models and years were affected. (It
only affects the cars with an ignition coil per cylinder
or maybe an ignition coil per two cyliners.)

o Complaints have been seen about (I think) the turbocharger
on some recent TDI diesel engines "coking up". That is,
the oil in the bearings burns up as the turbocharger
continues to spin after the engine is shut-down right
after a high-speed run. I don't know how credible these
reports are; at least one appeared right here on DU a
few months ago. I believe that proper oil service and
*NOT* blasting into your driveway from the highway and
shutting the engine right down will avoid this problem.
My 1991 Audi 200 Turbo Quattro was still turbocharging
just fine when I sold it earlier this year at 196K miles.
(I've heard that that car had an electric oil pump for
the turbo that ran on after the engine was shut down,
but I never saw any evidence of that.)

Our current stable houses a 2003 Audi A8L, an older
Porsche, and a Dodge Grand Caravan. If I were in the
market for another car, I would unreservedly consider
a Jetta or Audi A3, especially a TDI wagon. That Caravan
has always been an unreliable shitbox and is getting long
in the tooth to boot, and a station wagon would probably
suffice as a replacement for us now.

Tesha


Tesha

As usual the two cents worth from DUers is priceless.

mechanics in your area that work on them?


I would speak to a couple of those guys before buying.


I mention this because I moved to an area that is absolutely loaded
with big diesel trucks.

I thought it would be a piece of cake to find a mechanic to work on my old diesel burb

I was wrong. No one around here works on them. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it just continues to run problem free.

Availability of mechanics (if only for good advice!) is essential
to a prolonged, happy ownership of any car.

Tesha

I once lived in a town that had the greatest, nicest mechanic, but he only worked on certain cars. You bet I got one -- sometimes he'd fix the car in exchange for a six-pack!

I believe the DUer said it was a diesel and that many people were experieincing the same electrical problems.

I'm sure some folks are having good experiences with them, but I deal in used cars for a living, and can't believe how many of them I see going through the auctions running poorly and with their interior and exterior trim pieces falling apart. And they do not seem to retain much value if the auction prices are anything to go buy.

The Jettas seem to fare a bit better, but my own experience with these cars tells me Consumer Reports is not far off the mark. VW (and Mercedes, for that matter) are not the reliable and bulletproof machines they once were.

Not only are the cars troublesome, but the dealer network is horrible. It can take ages to get parts.

I don't know how that company went from building such quality machines to what they're putting out now. I suspect it began when they started to directly compete with Lexus by adding electronic bells and whistles to their cars - something the Germans aren't as good at as the Japanese.

driven it a half a dozen times, so far...and I love it.

I'm an old granny type and I don't drive a lot, anymore...but maybe now!!!

This is just perfect for me because it does get good mpg and
has a big old trunk and it is very peppy. I have the manual transmission
and the 2.0L engine....

Have fun...Tikki

No problems of note. I always by used so issues are dealt with by the original owner.

I have come to the conclusion that VW's are the "bad girls" of the automotive world.
When things are working they are a helluva lot of fun. But when things go wrong you find yourself crying on the side of the road.

I still enjoy them.

We loved that car even though it let us down, maybe too many times. So many phases in our dysfunctional relationship with that car. The phase where it wouldn't run when it was raining outside. The phase where every trip on the freeway meant another piece of hard rubber trim would come unglued and catapult through the air, one time nearly decapitating some guy driving behind me in a convertible. It had a knack for breaking down, not just in the busiest intersections, but in the left turn lane of the busiest intersections. We were on a first name basis with the tow truck guy and we learned not to believe everyone who claims they know how to fix VWs. We also learned to ignore the "check engine" light after even the most learned of experts in all things farfugnugen told us they couldn't figure out why it was perpetually lit up. But still we loved it and would not speak ill of it. It was so much fun to drive and it was still cute, even without the rubber moldings. Or at least when we squinted out eyes, we could remember how cute it used to be. We put over 200,000 miles on it and when the transmission finally gave out we abandoned it, reluctantly, becuase repairs would have cost twice what the car was worth by then.




"They're so popular you can't get away
Girls drive 'em in Encino
And they drive 'em in LA
Some are different, some are older
And their bodystyle is changed
But my heart will still jump
Because to me, they look the same

Ex-girlfriends, black Jettas
Ex-girlfriends, black Jettas
Ex-girlfriends, black Jettas
Ex-girlfriends, black Jettas

Is that her license plate?
Is that her? Check the rims.
About to crash, I can't relax
Is that her? I can't tell!
They all look the same.
They're all playing the game in black Jettas
Windows tinted, right side dented
Last night one tried to kill me, I'm sure
I think it was her
Black Jettas on the attack
She was wearing a big straw hat
Or was it a different haircut?
Or did she get fat?
I cannot tell, they look the same
Black Jettas are driving me insane

Ex-girlfriends, black Jettas
Ex-girlfriends, black Jettas
Ex-girlfriends, black Jettas
Ex-girlfriends, black Jettas"

free as some of the Japanese brands, but they seem to really like it, and really pleased. As they say, you pays your money and you takes your chances. I used to drive VWs myself, the last one was an '88, but the local dealer here is such a complete dick to deal with I just gave up on them.

Great reliability, regular gas, & 38~40 on the road.

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2006/honda/civic/index.html

One deciding factor in their favor are strong crash and safety ratings. They also have best in class drivabilty. Comparably priced Japanese and American cars just don't drive as good or handle as safely. Whatever car you buy, make sure you get a good warranty program as fixing things on today's cars is very expensive.

30 mpg, fast as a raped ape, larger, even the base "economy" model has power everything, its great.

And they are offering 0% interest till the end of August, grab that, its a great deal, VW doesn't do things like that very often.

They are real cars, the handling is amazing, makes japanese cars feel mushy. Really a pleasure to drive. Farvergnugen is not just an advertising slogan, you get hooked on the feel of a VW. The Jetta, on the highway, you creep up to 85 without knowing it, so smooth and in control.

Consumer reports makes a big deal out of nit-picking problems, minor things, VWs are great on the big things.

Love my Jetta, no problems with it.

Look elsewhere.

the other options

I like it, It has had ONE major issue, the alternator went out at about 50,000 mikes.

They burn breaks like a mug!

S, expensive repair FIATS.

The woman Survived with only scratches and bruises.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/9542403/detail.html

Joanne James was driving her Volkswagen Bug along I-25 when her car was crushed by a big rig near 38th Avenue. She said she saw the crash coming -- she could see the truck veering toward her -- but she had nowhere to go.


"I thought, 'Oh, he's coming towards me.' And then he was on me. And then, I was just along for the ride," said James.

She said the entire thing lasted less than 30 seconds but that it all seemed to happen in slow motion. She was wearing a seat belt, but her airbags did not deploy. Incredibly, James survived.

She said the first thought she had when she was smashed up against a guardrail, with a semitrailer beside her, was how beautiful the blue sky looked through her cracked windshield.

"I'm thinking, that is so pretty. Hee hee. It was a very detached feeling I had," James said.

She said she had a remote observer's point of view until she saw her precious VW Beetle mangled, and that's when she realized how lucky she was.

Back in May, we were 30 minutes from an appointment to sign the papers and close the deal on a slightly used Passat. On the way out the door, my wife's boss advised her to do some more checking, so when we stopped home to get the stuff we'd need at the dealership, I did some Googling, and sure enough, VW's aren't the reliable machines they're made out to be. The range of problems varies depending upon the models, so do a LOT of research first!

We wound up saying, what the heck, and checked out Hyundais. We wound up with a brand new Elantra hatch back. Very sweet little car, "Recommended" by Consumer reports, literally several thousand dollars less than anything by VW, and the warranty can't be beat.

I'd check out the Toyota Yaris. They only cost about $13,000 and get 40+ mpg, and you can't beat Toyota reliability.

We had a Celica several years ago and it was very reliable. After about a hundred thousand miles the air conditioning went out but we were in the market for a new car after that. We got a Mazda. I think I'll steer her towards Toyota. Even something larger than the Yaris will get good mileage and there are two full service dealerships close and we would be trading in a Toyota, that should be of some value.

they make a Camry hybrid now.

Apparently, the engines are comprised largely of numerous plastic parts that break very easily...he told my husband that it was almost guaranteed that every time he went to work on one, some (expensive) piece of plastic covering would break, which meant more time for him to complete the work, and more $$ for the customer to fork over. He got tired of dealing with this bullshit, so he just refuses to work on them anymore. His opinion, and the research I've done on VW's, have sealed the deal for me that I will never buy one.

Don't get me wrong, though. VW's are awesome looking cars, and as a girl who is the sister of, and married to a former "VW enthusiast", I know they are great fun to drive around in. But, unless you want to drop some major cash on keeping them running, I really would look elsewhere. They are just poorly made cars. It's sad, because otherwise they are some of the most fun, cool looking cars out there! And you can get them with a diesel engine! It really is a shame...:-(

> Apparently, the engines are comprised largely of numerous plastic parts that break very easily.

Bullshit.

And if it were true, he'd have the perfect opportunity to
"make the boat payments" just based on VeeDubs.

Tesha

Well, either you are calling me a liar, or you are saying our mechanic is a liar. We've used him for quite a some time now, and he seems to be an honest guy, and I really can't think of why he would feel the need to make up such a story. But whatever...I guess you'd know him better than we would, huh? But you know, just for the record, no one has to take my word, or my mechanic's word, for that matter, on the quality of VW's. Anyone with even the most basic internet researching skills can find out for themselves just what they might be getting into with buying a VW (Edmunds, Consumer Reports, etc. are a good start.)

And as I mentioned in my previous post, I know several VW enthusiasts, and even they will tell you that VW's are cool cars, but they are poorly made MONEY PITS!

> I know several VW enthusiasts, and even they will tell you
> that VW's are cool cars, but they are poorly made MONEY PITS!

Ahh, a friend of a friend. ;-)

Well, as I said elsewhere, my direct personal experience
with my VWs, Audis, and Porsches has been generally posi-
tive and the cars have been about as reliable as one might
reasonably expect, on par with our Taurus and far superior
to our Caravan.

I dunno -- maybe Toyotas never break, but the only Toyota
I've ever known personally for more than a rental period
destroyed its differential just out of warranty and our
local dealer left us high and dry until we made calls to
the zone office (who gave us some but not complete relief
on the repair).

Tesha

At every tuneup interval get a VW....



Stick with a Honda or Toyota

but Hondas do the same thing, at least my brother's Accord and my mom's CR-V do.

No major problems- but there are some quirky things about it- you can't change burnt out headlights yourself- it has to be done by a mechanic...you CANNOT turn the headlights off while the engine is running- if you want to idle to run the heat or a/c, you have to do so with the headlights on- as i said, ours is a 2001, so some stuff may have been addressed in newer models.

the car is a blast to drive, and is plenty roomy inside. ours is a turbo(same engine as the audi tt, from what i've been told) and the thing really flies.
in my opinion, vw has some of the best looking cars, and definitely the best colour palette among auto companies.

Have you seen this?

http://www.faqfarm.com/Q/How_do_you_replace_the_headlight_bulb_located_on_a_2001_VW_Beetle

How do you replace the headlight bulb located on a 2001 VW Beetle?

Answer

The 2001 headlight unit is held in place by a lever located behind each unit in the engine compartment. Some earlier units also had a locking clip. Moving the lever down releases the complete unit that can then be withdrawn out the front of the fender. Note: Road grit and general accumulations of dirt may make this less than smooth. After removing the whole unit the headlamp bulb is accesible by unclipping the cover at the rear of the unit and removing the bulb. Replacement is usually H1 halogen type bulb - do not touch the glass with bare hands as the oils on your fingers will cause hot spots. Replacement is the opposite of removal although you may want to clean out the fender opening before replacing the light unit. Lock in place using the locking lever.

(Full disclosure: Some additional replies clarify things
and a few caution that the levers can be fragile.)

more than one person had a whole buncha trouble. also- ours, being a turbo, has a slightly different headlight assembly- when i was in an accident, the body shop tried to use an after-market headlight, but it wouldn't fit- and nobody except vw makes the headlight/assembly for the turbo.

... Answer

I just replaced both headlights on a 99 beetle. German engineering my as*. What a piece of shi*. The little plastic handle the previous poster talked about is part of a ring of plastic that goes half way around the light mechanism. It has two slots that pieces of the light mechanism slide into and lock into place. Both of these little handles broke off. I think there is a little square tab that you need to push down while rotating this locking ring. Once you move the handle a little, have someone else try sliding the light out while you keep trying to move the handle. They both need to move at the same time. We ended up being able to force the plastic ring around after we broke the handle so the light would slide out, but it was extremely frustrating and very time consuming. Next time the lights burn out I will have to take it into the VW shop and pay an extravegant amount of money to have these little pieces of plastic replaced. Yes, you can fix this at home, but make sure it isn't cold (causes the plastic to be brittle) and that you take your time. Good luck!!!

Answer

Once more German engineering wins out....Smirk, Smirk. When moving the lever to release the locking collar make sure you push gently on the square piece of plastic next to the lever. This releases the 1/2 round collar that holds the headlight assembly in place. If you break the square tab out,(like I did) you can secure the lever in place after replacing the bulb by installing a small sheet metal screw next to the lever to lock it place. The locking collar didn't want to slide back in place once I got the headlight assembly back in and I had to remove the whole collar assembly and file a piece of plastic off by the lever that was rendering the collar useless. After this was done and a little vasaline was applied the collar assembly worked like a champ. Every time I work on my wife's bug I realize why I drive a toyota and go give my truck a hug. I think that German car repair is revenge on americans for winning WW2.

Answer

I was able to get the headlight out but what a pain in the ***-I think next time I will pay the 80 bucks and take to dealer. I worked for 2 hours-had trouble with how to get light bulb out and new one installed. I drove over to auto zone and they showed me for free but he did not want any part of how to help me put the whole head light back in. I broke a plastic grey clip on the one side but nothing major-I did not break the lever-I really dont know how they expect you to remove it w/o breaking any clips at all. Maybe I'l try the vaseline thing to put it back inside. Good Luck to all-Lori in Ohio

> more than one person had a whole buncha trouble.

Yeah, and lots of people have WIndows crash on them when
they "organize" all the system files into folders.

That doesn't mean that a careful person, proceding carefully
and methodically, can't do it. Obviously, it can be done or
there'd be a lot more VW padiddles running around on the
roads.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padiddle

Tesha

growing up, i always did all my own auto repairs- i even on my own swapped out a manual tranny for an automatic in one of the 5 pacers i've owned(although one was just for parts). i could crawl under and change the starter on those cars without even jacking them up. another fun job was changing the hydraulic pump that controlled the convertible top on my '69 lesabre...and then there was putting the front end of a gold '73 delta 88 onto the body of a blue '74 olds 98(hey- the bolt patterns matched).

i've done a lot of work on a lot of cars over the years- and although i'd still NEVER buy a "new" car, my days as a driveway mechanic are definitely behind me. i don't even do my own brakes or change my own oil anymore- it just isn't worth the bother

Even without that, I think they're overpriced for thier capabilities. Cute, but overpriced.

Then again, I'm pretty biased against european cars. My sister's Mercedes spends more time at the mechanics' than in our driveway.

If she gets one, make sure she uses a full synthetic oil, it'll do a lot to prevent the oil gelling and sludging newer VWs (and Toyotas, fwiw) are prone to.

But I know nothing about cars, so I'm useless in giving advice.

I've the station wagon. Rated for 29 mph highway. It has been pretty buggy with electrical problems and once the windshield wiper motor came loose. Also, the climate control is marginal at best. Consider Honda.

Seem to see more of those here than any other car. In Britain they were renamed the "Bora" in their previous version, for some unknown reason.

You know, as I was sweeping up my garage today, I was thinking
that "quality" has many different aspects.

The reason I was sweeping my garage is that every time I park
my ten-year-old Dodge Caravan in the garage, it deposits little
piles of rust on the floor. Sometimes, when it's feeling especially
feisty, it drops puddles of engine oil, transmission fluid, radiator
coolant, or power steering fluid.

Generally speaking, my similar-vintage VW-family cars didn't/
don't do this. And one reason they don't do this is because the
bodies (well, at least the Audis and the Porsche, not sure about
modern VWs) are fully galvanized (zinc plated) so rust is practically
non-existant, even where stone chips have damaged the paint.
And not only is the Caravan not galvanized, its body apparently
was designed in such a way that it traps salty water in some
rather nasty places. And the paint, as with so many other
Caravans, is starting to fall off the car in great swaths.

And while people seem to complain about VW electrical
systems, the Dodge was parked in the garage because I'm
busy trying to fix the air conditioning recirculation door
motor. It doesn't work because it's poorly designed and
apparently not really meant to go a long distance. Inside,
there are a pair of brass strips that just press against
the motor terminals; no actual hard connection. And once
again, corrosion has worked its magic, leaving the
motor only intermittantly connected to its power supply.
This isn't the first bit of "connectoritis" that the Caravan
has developed; its sliding door locks never worked very
well because the contacts are constantly corroding. The
ventilating blower failed when the connector to the
speed-control resistor burned up. The control relay
for the radiator fan has been replaced twice with
"newer" designs that "work now". And that puddle
of power steering fluid? Corrosion again. Not only did
the mild-steel connection nipple on the power steering
pump corrode and break, but the entire back end of
the pump corroded to the point where it was porous.

All cars require routine service. All cars have failure
modes, some of which are unique to a given model or
brand. Maybe it's just a case of "the devil you know",
but I've always found the reliability of my VW-family
products to be about as good as any cars I've had
experience with and better than a lot of them. The
Caravan is clearly a car that was designed to be
tossed out at about the same time its warranty
expired. Its "quality" apparently lies on a different
axis, perhaps being aimed at "initial appearance" or
"features", or maybe even "patriotism", but certainly
not "reliability" or "longevity" or "long-term low
expense operation".

Tesha

VW is always the way to go.

but I have also heard that you MUST get the manual transmission. The automatics always have issues.